Help with Thresh as something other than support

aaronconlin·Jan 6, 2015·2 votes·2,797 views

Thresh is free this week so I played a few games with him. I had never played him before, and since it was ARAM I didn't build support, but rather tanky with a little AP. Then I noticed his E's passive, so I was wondering if Thresh is viable in positions other than support.

I made a quick custom game so I could get a full build and test things out, my end build was this:

and I couldn't think of a last item, I tried out and and looking at ADC Thresh builds, it seems and are decent on him, too.

Basically what I'm asking is, would playing Thresh as a bruiser be viable? I know people play ADC Thresh because of his E's passive, and the meta is obviously support/tank.

18 Comments

Sir ArmaMalumJan 6, 20152 votes

Viable? Not really. Fun? Hell yes.

I run him top sometimes when I have a friend in the jungle (for the lantern ganks, which are a lot of fun). His range is respectable and his damage with a bit of AD is noticeable. The trick is, however, is that to get a good bit of damage out of him you have to charge up his flay, which means not last hitting for a bit. So he only really has dueling potential (w/o shooting yourself in the foot) when you're not farming. The inversely good thing about that is if you ca hold your own trading without the flay passive then when you are able to charge it people get scared.

So try top with this:

item 3111 item 3072 item 3078 item 3143 item 3068 item 3156

Rush either sheen or sunfires when you can (depending on your need) and try to get the vamp scpeter in there as well. After that try for triforce ASAP and then either Maw or Randys for whoever is nuking you more. Of course use your own discretion where you can too.

You don't want to run AP on him imho, his CC can stand pretty well on its own, so his only real scaling damage is his E passive, which scales with your AD. The above build makes him pretty bursty, but that works well if you're keeping an eye on your E charge. If you find yourself more on the 'keep hitting them' side, try switching the BT for a Botrk and see if that works better for you.

However, don't go in expecting this to win games. A smart laner will trade while you're last hitting, denying your E damage, and a smart jungle will never let you push (lack of personal escapes and all). But like I said he's fun, try bluffing a lantern gank by throwing a lantern behind you when you're jungler's not visible to them, and try to wander in their jungle occasionally (because Q escape in jungle mobs). Unless you're lucky, laning will usually be a big hurdle, but teamfights can run pretty well if you're not too behind.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 6, 20151 votes

I have seen the Q escapes into jungle creeps before, those are pretty cool. The lantern ganks has been something I've thought about doing, with some bluffs early and then give the surprise when it's a real gank! I've been thinking of trying to figure out a concept for an AD Support or something, because since Riot is all about diversity(i mean, look at Rek'Sai. She's really different compared to the other junglers in the past, and she's actually balanced on release!) they should have a support that scales off of AD instead of the usual path of being tanks or mages. Any ideas for an AD Support?

Sir ArmaMalumJan 6, 20152 votes

I always love some brainstorming myself. Closest thing we have in live, imho, is support Ashe, as she has the highest utlity in her kit while still having adc mechanics.

As far as a concept, you have to get around a large hurdle, and that's overtuning. Supports and damage capacity never get along well because supports have naturally staying power and AD damage, being applicable via auto attacks, can really get out of hand quickly. I think Thresh's E charge has the right idea however, charging up and allowing for good damage but only on one auto attack.

Possibly a skill with a small territory effect may work as well, has an effect based on AD withing a certain location (ala Trundle pillar or something of that sort). Or maybe an auto attack based healing (only to others not self)? There are ways to do it but it's tricky.

aaronconlinJan 7, 20152 votes

I've played Gangplank support and Warwick support (only once), GP is actually decent as a support.

That idea about the location effect is pretty cool, I'm picturing a knight-like support that can place a banner down for an AoE effect

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 7, 20151 votes

JarvanIV (glaring across the room...) Seriously though, I thought of something like that too. But kind of like an engineer type person--- Heimerdinger ...... ---that could throw out a pod that dealt some damage upon landing, and slowed if anyone was in the proximity of it continously, and then stop once they left the radius, and then maybe be like healing gradually increases as it stays out (with the healing starting after a short delay of landing, and within a radius of the pod) then the healing decreases as it's duration ends, and then disappear. If that were the case, the duration it's out would have to be kind of short (5 seconds) and have the healing be small in the beginning, cap at 2.5 seconds, then decrease at 4.5 seconds, and heal every .5 seconds or something. Probably have a health bar for the pod too, just so that it isn't an indestructable, respawning hospital, with a longer cooldown if it gets destroyed sooner, but a shorter one if it stays out longer, and have the CD start after the pod is destroyed (his pod's health would scale off of his total or current health, maybe 20%. You gotta have some cost to using it. I kind of want this guy to be a resource-less support, or have a resource other than mana, because EVERY support ATM has a mana bar. Kind of boring.

And he would also probably have to have some sort of generator, or something. Maybe like you can use them as wards, but you can use them on towers too, kind of like Azir (the ammo system too, and leveling the ability would lower the regeneration rate on getting another generator, as well as letting you have 4 generators at the fifth level), and the generators would last around 3 minutes(?), and if someone comes near them (say a champion, for this example) it would blow up, and reveal the person for 3 seconds(?), and have a gradual burning effect, because all generators have fire involved with their explosions, right?

He could also probably have some sort of poke, or a shield spell, that when it's not on CD, it gives him extra armor and/or magic resist, and have like a movement speed boost type passive, then when activated, he loses the passive, and gives the ADC a shield that would give them slightly less armor and/or magic resist, and give them some temporary attack speed, and "electrifies" their attacks, allowing bonus attack power for 3 AA, or 5 seconds, but the shield would last like 6 seconds(?), and the AA buff lasts as long as the shield persists, or until you used the 3 AA. So if the shield dies, the buff goes away too. His ult could be something like... I don't know... He IS an engineer, after all... So his ultimate could be where he temporarily disables his generator and shield ability, but in doing so, he makes a mech that will fight alongside you for 30 seconds(?), have 75% of your total AD, 75%(?) of your health, and he has the electrifying AA buff as well, but now the electrocution spreads to nearby enemies, and it's more like the Hydra than the Shiv. Of course, the mech will last longer with levels, lower the ultimate's CD, and maybe the spreading electricity will do slightly more damage with each level. Maybe the ult will have a passive too, maybe increased healing effects(?), but only if the ultimate is OFF CD.

Now the passive... Oh god. Probably gonna have to do some sort of special resource passive... More attack speed with more nearby allies, up to 16% more with all 4 around you, aaaaaand probably gonna go with a generator cap bar, that way you know how many generators he has out, up to 4/5/6/7/8 (Levels 1/5/9/13/18).

What do you guys think?!

aaronconlinJan 7, 20151 votes

Wow, I completely forgot about JarvanIV lol, and the enemy Nami in the last game I played said they play him as a support, too. He's tanky, has an AoE slow, Attack Speed aura banner and of course his ult.

That also makes me wonder if Heimerdinger would be decent as a support...

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 7, 20151 votes

I have indeed played Heimerdinger as Support... And let me tell you, Heim is THE ULTIMATE HARASS AND POKE SUPPORT (dramatic music plays) Though most people (ADC) would rage at you because they don't want your turrets to take their CS :I I did warn them though... I did say, "I can't guarantee that not happening". And then we won lane. And there was much rejoicing. Also, by pure chance, I got a double kill with my normal grenade once. So random and hilarious.

EDIT: Don't forget his dash to his flag has a knock up too, and he decreases armor with his lance thingy!

aaronconlinJan 7, 20151 votes

Nice! I don't really like playing Heimerdinger but maybe as a support he could be more fun for me.

And I've never played JarvanIV so I didn't know about those, but his kit seems like it would work for a support.

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 7, 20151 votes

AP Tank Cho'Gath and AD Tank Jarvan IV is actually pretty funny in the bot lane. Once you hit Level 2, boom. Knock ups x2!

Cale017Jan 6, 20152 votes

Having been playing Thresh since season 3, I've tried him out in plenty of different areas, even including the jungle, and managed to make it work. But I can tell you from personal experience that he is strongest by far when played as a support for a few reasons.

First off, his damage scalings aren't that great. They're certainly nothing to write home about, although enough stacks on his passive though getting souls can still start making a difference. The Box is his only high AP ratio ability, and it's janky to hit with, and has plenty of base damage of it's own to where you don't really have to worry about getting more damage on it. Building him as an AP Tank doesn't work very well because his AP based damage is very meh. Aside from his ult, his other damaging abilities have low base damages and average or below average ratios. Their worth is in their utility more so than their damage, and so building AP on him is a pretty solid waste. Nashor's Tooth with an on hit build can help to alleviate some of the repercussions of an emphasis on AP by adding to the on hit damage from his Flay, but you have to invest so heavily into it to get benefit that you're losing out on tank stats that he needs to be effective in favor of AP that he's only getting half as much benefit from as most.

The AD ratio on his flail is a bit of a trap in all honesty. It only reaches maximum bonus damage if you don't hit someone with him for a long period of time, several seconds. So building attack speed items on him ensures that you're pretty much never going to be getting the full use of his Flay since you won't have time to charge up sufficient bonus damage between attacks aside from the number of souls you have. If you're building him as a fighter or an ADC, you aren't doing it because of the damage on his Flay. It's only ever going to be relevant if you spend several seconds between hits, and when going into a fight you're only going to get it on the first attack you land.

You dealt an extra 300 damage on a build that's already critting for more than that on regular auto attacks once at the beginning of a fight. To anyone other than a carry it's laughable. Damage oriented builds are about sustained DPS, and his passive damage boost is a small bonus when he's going into a fight. It doesn't function the same way when he's dealing constant damage. You're giving up the full use of the ability that made you consider running him as an AD champion in the first place. Running him as an ADC, especially with a Ruunan's, is worth nothing more than dealing his bonus damage from a fully charged Flay passive to three enemies at once, plus proccing three bursts at the same time from a fully charged Shiv. A build like that isn't effective because it's good on him particularly, it's effective because it's a standard ADC build. If someone lets you get to the point where you have all of those items finished, you're going to look like you're doing a lot of damage because you're sitting on several hundred AD, probably with some lifesteal, with enough AS to keep the chains coming. It's not because HE is strong, it's because his ITEMS are strong.

I love Thresh. He's a great concept, his design is tons of fun, and he has room for a lot of clutch plays. But because he brings so much utility in his kit, not damage, it's best to keep him where he belongs: alongside someone who he can protect with his W, set up for kills with his Q, disengage with his ult, and keep in place with his E. You'll carry a lot more games by learning how to land a hook through a minion wave and knock people into more than one Box wall than you will by focusing on your own damage.

I'd suggest building him similar to how you'd expect someone to build a Leona. I honestly don't build support items outside of the initial Talisman/FoTM, because that's about all the supporting effects he needs. He's already got a shield, and giving him an active movement speed boost only augments his ability to peel and disengage for carries or to close the gap and lock down a target to secure a kill. After I'm done with that I just go straight tank and CDR. Being able to send out more Qs, knock people up with more Es, shield and save with more Ws, and drop more ults goes a LOT further than trying to be a damage dealer. Sitting in the middle of the enemy team controlling who goes where and when is what makes him a terror when he's built as a tanky support, and they're forced to group up when he's around to keep their high priority players from being hooked and deleted by Thresh's team.

All in all, the best advice I can give you is to have fun. If you enjoy a champion, play them where you want how you want. But understand that whether we like it or not, champions are designed to fill certain niches. Just because you can make them work in some ways doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good idea to play them like that all the time. More often than not, playing a champion outside of their standard role well usually comes as much from your team helping you be successful as it is from you making the right choices. On top of that, playing a champion outside of their role too much makes Riot have to respond by nerfing them if they're becoming oppressive, which weakens their abilities in their main roles.

Have fun, but use caution. Understand what a champion is and what they're made for, where their true strengths lie, and learn how to play them well enough to carry from their main role before you try to break the meta.

aaronconlinJan 6, 20152 votes

Thanks for such a long, thought-out reply! Once I play a champion I like to tinker with roles and builds, so I get a better understanding of them and get to play them how they're not usually played. AP Aatrox, Vayne top, etc etc, so I wanted to do something similar with Thresh without doing terrible.

Cale017Jan 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for such a long, thought-out reply! Once I play a champion I like to tinker with roles and builds, so I get a better understanding of them and get to play them how they're not usually played. AP Aatrox, Vayne top, etc etc, so I wanted to do something similar with Thresh without doing terrible.

Understandable. That's what most people do. But you have to understand what makes a champion strong or weak before you can try to play them outside of their best roles.

AP Aatrox can work because it turns his ult into a nuke, and it makes his E deal some solid damage. With a Nashor's Tooth and a Rabadon's you can keep his auto attack oriented kit dealing some solid damage as well, but you're losing out on the lifesteal he desperately needs. His kit definitely makes use of AP if you get ahead, but it's ignoring part of what makes him so effective purely for the sake of buffing an ability that's real use is the slow that lets him stay on someone, and damage on an ult that's true power comes from how much it increases your DPS overall, as well as his pushing power.

Vayne top can work because she has a way to dodge enemy skillshots and get some distance from them with her Q, deal extra damage to poke from afar and deny them farm with her silver bolts, and her E makes for a great disengage when she gets ganked or for an amazing CC if used wisely if she's the one engaging her lane opponent. When she hits 6 she gains a lot of kill potential against anyone who can't keep her away. She has a kit

Both of these are great examples of how you can play a champion differently and still do well, but they also serve as excellent examples of when to focus on playing someone outside of their standard role and when to play them as what they're made to do. A Vayne top is still building as an ADC, the only difference between her as a top lane and her as a bottom lane is that she can actually survive in a solo lane because she has all the tools to do so. Aatrox on the other hand, while his kit has some solid synergy with AP if you can get enough of it, is losing out on his early kill potential, which is something that he desperately needs to win lane given that he's relatively squishy for a melee champion, and requires a HEAVY gold investment before damage from the items that you're building is actually becoming effective. Couple that with losing out on both the bonus damage and bonus healing from every third strike of his auto attacks from not having any bonus AD built, and you're effectively robbing him of one of the core assets to his kit while pushing off his power curve into the late mid to late game when he needs the level 6 power curve to win lane in most cases.

The difference is that Vayne is playing the same, while you're affecting, and hindering, Aatrox's advancement and usefulness due to two of his abilities having AP scalings on them. An AP Aatrox build might be fun to test out, but it doesn't change that you're essentially wasting more than half of his kit for the sake of trying something new, and if you're having to waste that much of a champion's potential it reduces a build from being viable and working as intended to being gimmicky and only worth a damn if your team helps you to get far enough ahead that you're making up for lost stats in one area with another.

Treat Thresh the same way. Sure you could build him as an ADC, but you can do the same with any ranged character. It doesn't mean that it's any more effective on him than it would be any other non meta ADC. You can build him as an AP tank up top, but you're missing out on his amazing synergy with aggressive ADCs in the bottom lane.

Balance in all things, including your build choices. Try and keep the things that a champion was designed to do in mind when you're thinking of how you want to play them. If your ideas play to their strengths, awesome! A full AP Skarner may not be as strong as a hybrid damage build, or a full tank Skarner, but he has two high AP ratios and an AP based shield. You aren't wasting item slots or gold on an AP item for him. Building Rammus as a bruiser isn't a bad idea because he doesn't need very much defensive stats to do his job well when his W is maxed out, and building a few high armor items allows him to both tank effectively and deal a surprising amount of damage due to his passive giving AD on top of his base amounts as well as an AD item or two. He can keep you in place for two seconds while mitigating your damage to him and ripping you to bits. You're losing out on a bit of his tanking ability, but for the most part it's still preserved, and what you're losing in tank you're more than making up for in damage.

I'm intending to go into the gaming industry if I can ever sort out financial aid to get back into college, so I tend to think of games in a more critical sense than just what I can see. I attack concepts on a basis of why they're there, and in a lot of cases it lets me see things in a way that goes beyond what you'd expect from a Wood V jungler. If more people who played this game thought about why Riot has to make the changes they're making, or how small differences can make for big changes, the community might be a little bit easier for based Rito to handle.

Riot balances champions around the cores of what their kits are supposed to accomplish, and they'll never be stronger than when playing the hand Riot dealt them. Ever so often they might not realize the hidden potential within a champion, like the rash of AP Rek'Sais, but in most cases the dealer at the table is the one who's going to end up with the chips at the end of the day.

Have fun and happy building.

But seriously, if I see you playing AP tank Graves in the top lane I'm reporting you :D

TonyTonyMordecaiJan 6, 20151 votes

I like doing that too :D ADC Twisted Fate, Jungle Teemo, Mid Sona(after-rework, wasn't the best idea), AP Top Zac(I have to try him out with his newest buff, though), AP Mid Nasus(and building Q-stacks); All fun as hell, and the AP Mid Nasus is still something I do from time to time! I actually tried AD Thresh, but it was Top DPS Thresh... First time doing that was against a Teemo, and I wasn't good with Thresh to begin with... Probably should've gone AP Thresh or something... I actually think AP Tank Thresh would be pretty viable, since he has more range than most Melee people, and Runaan's actually works on him! (I was so surprised when it did) Plus you can have someone TP to your lantern(IDK if they removed that or not) so maybe Jungle Thresh? Probably not, but I'd love to hear someone try it!

fdisshtJan 6, 20151 votes

As stated before, it's fun but not viable, you can still win with bruiser/adc thresh...just other champions are better at that role

I liked going item 3078 item 3031 item 3072 item 3006 item 3035 item 3026 basically adc thresh because lord have mercy on the soul who gets trinity passive, E empowered, crit auto attack.

Edit* It's fun to go adc thresh bot with a blitzcrank support... the threshcrank

RiotRiot MechaMooseJan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thresh is free this week so I played a few games with him. I had never played him before, and since it was ARAM I didn't build support, but rather tanky with a little AP. Then I noticed his E's passive, so I was wondering if Thresh is viable in positions other than support.

I made a quick custom game so I could get a full build and test things out, my end build was this:

and I couldn't think of a last item, I tried out and and looking at ADC Thresh builds, it seems and are decent on him, too.

Basically what I'm asking is, would playing Thresh as a bruiser be viable? I know people play ADC Thresh because of his E's passive, and the meta is obviously support/tank.

I like Thresh quite a bit, and I've played him as ADC before with friends. As others have mentioned, his first hit will do a lot of damage, but then you'll loose a lot of the value on the passive part of his E because you're going to be hitting so much. It can work, and can be fun, but it's not exactly consistent.

Also, you lose basically all of the value of his hook when you build ADC. If you throw it out and hook someone, your autotattacks are disabled for the duration of the hook, so throwing it out is actually a major damage loss.

aaronconlinJan 6, 20151 votes

Thanks for the feedback! That's true about the hook, but I think Thresh's hook is more about gap closing and CCing the enemy than it is about damage. Say an enemy is escaping, you land a hook and then use it to jump to them, you're now in range for auto-attacks again.

7ha7guy777Jan 7, 20151 votes

when my friend and i do Threshcrank bot (it's either amazing or horrible with no in between) i tend to build item 3252 item 3087 item 3153 item 3031 item 3072 item 3022 BoRK's active range is the same as Thresh's autos. if you get a crit depending on your soul count, you first hit will chunk people for around 1800 mixed damage before mitigation. the mallet and furor combo makes it hard to run from him if you don't have mobility. i've noticed that we fail hardest against poke/heal bot lanes.