Hecarim - Iceborn vs. Triforce

BluePolarizer·Mar 28, 2015·2 votes·3,987 views

Hey guys I've been going Triforce rush mostly on Hecarim, but recently I've been noticing that even when I get insanely fed, I still can't hard carry late game if my ADC is feeding since once Hecarim uses ult, he is easily kiteable and exclusively melee when he builds the typical build. Its been getting annoying that if bot lane loses it doesn't matter what I do unless mid or top can delete the enemy ADC, since Hec is so easily kiteable.

I was thinking of another build, specifically designed to deal with kiting/slippery champs that Triforce builds seem have trouble chasing down:

{{item:3143}

This gives more armor than the previous build, about equally tanky (250 less HP, 65 less armor) but in exchange you get the burst AS/MS from Ghostblade, an AOE permaslow from Iceborn, more base MS, slow resist and more Arpen to shred squishies. Iceborn also helps with mana sustain, so the loss of Frozen Heart isn't so bad.

What I'm thinking with the ghostblade/Iceborn build is that it gives burst damage to kill carries fast, still sufficient tankiness and permaslow/slow resist/burst mobility to avoid being kited. If I'm unable to dive and have to fight the front line, or have to peel, the AOE slow from Iceborn should be superior to the pure damage from Triforce, so I become a better peeler as well.

26 Comments

Shiroi KitsuneMar 28, 20155 votes

item 3707 Try building this instead. It does wonders for Hecarim's damage as it gives him damage, ArP and CDR, all of which are stats which Hecarim loves. Otherwise the choice between item 3078 and item 3025 is up to you. I prefer Tri-Force myself because of the Phage passive, but there is definitely a lot to be said for Ice-born Gauntlet's passive too.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

thanks for the tip! would I still be tanky enough though? Cinderhulk's HP is definitely not negligible early game and it only gets better from there, as well as it being very cheap. I still find myself thinking "fk I'm so squishy" sometimes, but I guess that just be a function of how stupidly good LW and crit are. However Warrior does seem VERY tempting.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Is it better to get Cinderhulk, then build another item for damage, or get Warrior, and build other items for tankiness?

I mean, how much better or worse is it to go Cinderhulk then get a LW or Ghostblade over Randuins or Heart than it is to go Warriors/Triforce and go full tank?

Shiroi KitsuneMar 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

thanks for the tip! would I still be tanky enough though? Cinderhulk's HP is definitely not negligible early game and it only gets better from there, as well as it being very cheap. I still find myself thinking "fk I'm so squishy" sometimes, but I guess that just be a function of how stupidly good LW and crit are. However Warrior does seem VERY tempting.

Here's what I'm thinking:

Is it better to get Cinderhulk, then build another item for damage, or get Warrior, and build other items for tankiness?

I mean, how much better or worse is it to go Cinderhulk then get a LW or Ghostblade over Randuins or Heart than it is to go Warriors/Triforce and go full tank?

So I've gone both ways and here's kind of my opinion on this. Warrior gives you a lot more damage and lets you make bigger plays in general, and makes you relevant as a tank past-ult. Now, if your lanes are ahead and your team is in need of a dedicated tank than Cinderhulk would be a good option as you don't need to be doing more than being a damage soak. So it kind of depends on personal preference and how the game is going.

Some other things to consider:

With Warrior's and triforce you become a pretty dang good duelist, and in teamfights your damage is actually something that people need to pay attention to (which means they are more likely to focus you and allow you to do your job as a tank). This build also scales well throughout the game given that you do not get behind. If you start falling behind you should pick up warrior's and sheen and then go full tank.
Cinderhulk is an item that works better with people that have large amounts of utility as the damage is somewhat negligible by itself. This is why it's excellent on Sejuani for example since she already has tons of cc, and thus works well with the beefy stats and DoT.
I haven't run LW on Hecarim, and haven't run Youmuu's in quite some time either, so I can't really say with confidence how cinderhulk+Ghostblade or LW stacks up.
The big thing about getting warriors is that your ganks become a lot more potent early and make you relevant late game for something other than cc.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

I noticed you said pick up Sheen. I almost always pick up Phage first for better sticking and the flat AD, since its cost efficient by its base stats alone while powering up your autos and Q as you chase during ganks. I think after Q + 2 autos, it makes up for the loss of Sheen proc.

Hmm, I'll have to try it out.

Shiroi KitsuneMar 28, 20151 votes

Maybe, but I love that you can proc sheen so much with your q's. But as I said, I usually actually pick up both, but I do start with sheen.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

ok, thnx. I'll have to try these all out. I think that Hecarim's strength is his versatility. He can pretty much buy anything that's not Deathcap and do well lol.

Shiroi KitsuneMar 28, 20151 votes

That's definitely what I love about him. Btw, just in the spirit of trying things I would recommend trying out Maw of Malmortius item 3156 against double AP comps. It's an item that tends to hide in the shadows, but is actually pretty good in that scenario.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

Have tried, can confirm it is beastly.

EndlessSorcererMar 28, 20151 votes

Hecarim needs a good mixture of durability and damage to function since he typically stays in the middle of fights absorbing damage and dealing damage.

When playing him in the jungle, I find that my build is typically along the following lines: item 3111 or item 3047 , item 3707 or item 3714 , item 3025 , item 3065 , item 3143 , item 3075 or item 3071

Since I get Warrior enchant for early damage and clearing, I prefer Iceborn Gauntlet > Trinity Force since it gives me some mid-game durability at the expense of damage and movement speed. Iceborn Gauntlet is also about 1000G cheaper, so it's simpler to purchase on a jungler's budget without heavily snowballing.

Keep in mind that I haven't really played Hecarim since the release of Cinderhulk, so this information is a bit outdated. Honestly, now that it exists I might alter the build for some experimentation. Honestly, your initial build looks worth a try, with: item 3111 or item 3047 , item 3709 or item 3717 , item 3078 , item 3143 item 3065 , item 3071

A bit less early damage than I'm used to for ganking, but better lategame durability and mobility with similar clear times.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

I've been using the 1st build pretty much without deviation for 15 games. I started off with a 80% win rate but I've lost like 5 games in a row or something where I just keep getting kited. That is why I'm seriously considering Iceborn and more damage, so I don't need to rely on sticking to the enemy ADC for 15 seconds.

I've experimented with cleaver... its a nogo. I lost every game I bought with cleaver since even though it seems great (AOE armor shred! HP synergy with Cinderhulk! Huge AD!) I've found its better to front load your damage into your first E/Q/Auto/Qs, since after that, sadly, its easy to kite Hecarim and you'll either die uselessly chasing their ADC if they live, or be forced to hit their front line if their ADC is not yet dead. Thus, you are left with the choice of either buying LW to deal with their front line, Ghostblade to upfront your damage, or another tank item to better tank for the team with a Cinderhulk based build.

EndlessSorcererMar 28, 20152 votes

Eh, it might be a difference in playstyle or goals. I don't really find that I have issues being kited, however I typically try to play as a tanky disruptor in fights instead of diving the carries. I sit there to soak damage for my team, drive enemies away from the fight, and damage targets within range later in the game.

Personally, I like getting Black Cleaver late-game so that I can reduce the armor of the enemy frontline (to improve my own damage and help my team kill them more easily). Diving and killing the enemy back-line is a great, but not always my objective.

Between Ghost, Chilling Smite, and Hecarim's innate mobility, I don't really find I have issues sticking to targets long enough to accomplish my objective and drive them out of the fight or away from objectives, even if I don't actually kill them.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

I think that's why I'm starting to lose. I'm no longer getting tanky/bursty enough to just insta kill the carries who actually know how to kite against teams that actually know how to peel, so then I get kited and it feels like I'm not doing my job. I think I should view Hecarim as a tanky disruptor/damage tank like Shyavna or Mundo instead of a diving bruiser like Jax and lay down huge sustained damage on their entire team.

For that job though, seems like Iceborn would be pretty damn good.

Also, do you usually take thornmail? I've been finding myself going thornmail alot more often that I would like.

EndlessSorcererMar 28, 20151 votes

I find that Thornmail is a common purchase for me on many tanks and bruisers, since it prevents autoattackers from lifestealing through your damage and makes you very hard to duel. For Hecarim specifically, it synergizes well with your W since you don't actually suffer from a lack of health and it can be very hard for DPS champions to finish you off (as opposed to burst champions).

Typically, if the team has multiple autoattack/AD champions or the enemy ADC is the main threat to me and/or I have to duel an autoattacker regularly, I'll purchase Thornmail as my last item. If the enemy team very beefy, I'll often build Black Cleaver to reduce their armor for my team. Maw of Malmortius is pretty good against magic damage, but I'd only recommend it over Banshee's Veil is you can afford to or need to build more damage.

Iceborn Gauntlet is better than Trinity Force for one particular purpose: peeling for your carries. You can easily spam the slow field to help your carries peel the enemy initiator/front-line. So if you think you need to focus on disruption instead of diving, I'd recommend it.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

Have you never used LW on Hecarim? I've found it to be pretty amazing if you are tanky enough with just 200 armor. It is cheaper than cleaver so you can rush it in emergencies, while it frontloads alot more damage against ADCs and is good in 1v1s against tanks. Cleaver is indeed far superior for teamfight tank shredding though.

I've actually been considering not even getting Randuins or Frozen Heart, and just going straight thornmail as my primary armor item if I'm going the Cinderhulk route since I noticed in every single game I lose, I'm losing due to the enemy ADC.

EndlessSorcererMar 28, 20151 votes

I've never really used Last Whisper on Hecarim. I can see it being useful when the enemy team has several bruisers/tanks and your team doesn't have much physical damage to benefit from Black Cleavers armor reduction.

However, you do miss out on the CDR from Brutalizer for Q-spam and W-uptime. However, I do typically prefer the AoE armor reduction to improve my team's damage and the CDR/health from Black Cleaver.

While Last Whisper is Cheaper from Black Cleaver and does give increase your damage without requiring it be stacked, Hecarim can quickly apply BC stacks and ~700 gold is pretty small when you're building your 5th or 6th item.

FantasySniperMar 28, 20151 votes

item 3707 is superior to all choices. Cinderhulk cannot compete.

item 3078 is usually better than item 3025 . Just because you can use it for every damage output and still get tankiness, mana, and stickiness.

item 3009 leaves you squisher, so it may be better to build more damage and focus on clean-up and/or assassination as your Hec playstyle. item 3142 item 3172 item 3153 can all be decent choices for the damage route.

item 3082 + item 3065 is a good combo, but you're going way overkill when it comes to countering AA damage with the first build. item 3800 and item 2053 are also good tank items that promote stickiness.

If you focus a little less on being so tanky, it'll be easier to carry. Dragon is also your highest priority for you.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

Hmm, building damage and going clean-up is interesting. I think that Hecarim might be better that way, since his ult is good for initiating but he's not the most amazing initiator, not compared to Malphite/Amumu/Sejuani anyways.

I've gotten an 80% win rate with the first build in high gold up to this morning lol, but just started running into trouble about getting kited too much by ADCs.

FantasySniperMar 28, 20152 votes

If you're getting kited, that probably means you haven't got your team with to lock them down. I recommend not ever trying to solo an ADC as Hec unless you're able to kill them quickly or they are just plain that behind.

flibitydooMar 28, 20151 votes

The item 3044 component grants bonus movement speed for attacking enemy champions (with basic attacks), which in turn fuels your Warpath passive granting you additional AD.

Ice born is nice cause stickiness/armour/mana+cdr to spam, but Triforce will give you much greater burst damage.

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

that is true, and the Phage proc has made a huge difference in alot of close fights. That's got me thinking.

ZeroAnarchyMar 28, 20151 votes

If you're having trouble carrying build more damage, not tankiness. That is the rule of solo-qeue, only worry about yourself. item 3156 item 3139 item 3142 are items I would recommend to give you more one shot potential on any of their carries. They also give you a slight bit more tankiness.

Common end builds I see high elo players who play him (Sickmotion for example, really recommend watching him) is: item 3078 item 3111 item 3110 item 3065 item 3142 and either another defensive item or item 3139 / item 3156

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20151 votes

thats a top lane build. I usually play him jungle where the gold flow and build paths are a bit different.

ZeroAnarchyMar 28, 20151 votes

If it's jungle and you're having trouble carrying late game just sell your jungle item for the ghostblade, still has the brutalizer to it for armor pen. My build path would be item 3707 item 3111 item 3078 item 3110 item 3065 item 3156 / item 3139 then sell jungle item for ghostblade

SpecterVonBarenMar 28, 20151 votes

While I don't play Hec all that often, I do play Skarner and while they have different kits, their itemization is very similar.

While I can't tell you which is best, I can tell you what some general rules you can use for deciding what to get are.

Are you steamrolling the game? Go Triforce.

Are you behind? Iceborn.

Does your team not have much CC? Iceborn is a good choice.

Does your team lack damage? Triforce.

But keep in mind that Triforce is practically made for Hecarim, all of its stats synergize with him. Increased movespeed for his passive, both percentage and flat when procing phage. It has sheen which goes well with the spamable nature of his q and his good base AD. It gives mana for more q's, health for staying in a fight longer, AD, AP, attack speed, crit, all offensive stats Hec can use.

EdbwnMar 28, 20151 votes

I've been reading these comments and taking hella notes lol, I really like Hecarim but hinestly I'm pretty bad with him. I wanted to ask if it's still common/a good idea to run movespeed quints on him, and do you usually do 21/9/0 or 9/21/0 for masteries?

BluePolarizerMar 28, 20152 votes

I usually run 21/9/0 with basic AD caster runes (AD/arpen).