Why don't we see more Pantheon top?

Nyris14·9/21/2015, 5:10:34 PM·2 votes·1,264 views

Given all the recent changes to champs in top lane (my main lane), I've been looking for a champ that: A) Doesn't get banned often and B) Performs well against the changed champs

..and from what I've seen so far in both normals and ranked is that Pantheon is very strong against just about everyone who's gone through a recent change.

Between his Q and his passive he can completely mess up most champs' early games, and between his ult and a TP/flash combo he can escape a lot of ganks.

I admit that he's not perfect; he's VERY mana hungry and champs like darius can be problematic if you're repeatedly caught by the blade of his Q (though if you time it well on an all in you can jump in and avoid the passive stack and heal then block his next attack with your passive to slow down his ult) or you don't wear them down first before committing. But it begs the question: why do yall think we don't see more people playing Pantheon top lane against the new champs?

11 Comments

Randomonium9/21/2015, 5:23:23 PM1 votes

I think the big reason is that he doesn't scale well and falls off late game. Even if you get a decent lead in the laning phase his win rate drops off hard after the 30 minute mark.

Selegun9/21/2015, 5:28:55 PM1 votes

Pantheon Support, rush item 3071

I was skeptical till we utterly stomped the lane. His roams are epic lol

TeemoJenkins9/21/2015, 5:34:59 PM1 votes

Like Random says, he falls off hard late game. I counter picked a Fiora top with Mantheon the other day, he ended up leaving lane after his tower was lost and my CS advantage was double digits... He TP'd bot... got a triple off our bot lane that was over extended and he was instantly stronger than me. He needs more QOL for late game, but his early game is too strong to justify it as he has safe lane with his passive and good harass in his Q.

Stephenizgod9/21/2015, 5:36:52 PM1 votes

He is easy to shut down with jungle ganks and even if he gets fed he falls off hard.

Only Play Darius9/21/2015, 5:56:19 PM1 votes

He falls off harder than most champions in the game. His early game is strong and he is dominant in lane, but that's it. In a farming matchup he will always lose.

Which is why he jungles instead, his strong early game and unpredictable ganks can get 2/3 of his lanes fed. And if the gold lead is snowballed in his team's favor then he doesn't have to worry about falling off.

Ralanr9/24/2015, 8:48:43 PM1 votes

Hi, resident Pantheon main for toplane (though I'm an unranked scrub who only plays normals so I can't say I'm an expert) and I'd like to offer my opinion.

First let's take a look at champions you are most likely going to meet in toplane this season:Darius Garen Fiora Gangplank Riven MonkeyKing. I'm basing this off my own experience, so this may or may not be true.

Darius: This guy basically outlasts you in a straight up fight. With his slow and hook combined with his Q, he can basically come out with more overall health than you. He's a much more painful lane bully, especially when he plays smart (like forcing you under his tower with his E). At level 6? Good luck dealing with him.

Garen: He's not as bad as Darius, but he counters you pretty hard with his Silence (even if you block the AA with your passive, you'll be silenced) and his passive heal. Now you can stop the heal if you make sure to poke him at the right times, but he doesn't have to walk too far away from his turret to avoid the poke. His level 6 problem used to be the same as Darius if you killed him a few times, nowadays it's unlikely you'll be the first villain, but at low health it won't matter.

Fiora: Pantheon's passive is her counter. I cannot say I've ever had a frustrating match against a Fiora, she's fun to play against with Pantheon. That being said, she has a strength that all of these other champs have that I will get to.

Gangplank: Oranges and Barrels. With his ult range he can keep toplane occupied and offer help to other lanes. I may have just performed poorly, but I could not take down his tower. He couldn't take mine either.

Riven: Everyone seems to hate fighting her. A good shield bash to the face can stop all her jumping if timed properly.

MonkeyKing: I haven't seen him awhile. I just hate fighting him.

Now what do these champs have that Pantheon lacks? A good mid to late game if they aren't feeding during lane. Pantheon (and Renekton) are very powerful early game champions. They are meant to be lane bullies in top lane (I know Pantheon can jungle, I'm arguing top), to shut down their opponent. But when you have champions that can outlast you in top lane after getting enough CS, then you need to work twice as hard with an old (fairly useful but a tad unsatisfying at times) kit that has a few annoyances. Plus you have to consider that Pantheon (despite what some people seem to think) is not a tank. He's a fighter/assassin Hybrid, like Jax and Tryndamere, these are champs that are known for being relatively squishy (Tryndamere's ult leads away from this thought, but it's really not hard to bring him down to that low) and not having good late games unless fed. Pantheon does decent if he's fed, I've carried a few games with him actually, but that's only because I could shut down the opponent multiple times (and I had a lot of close calls in lane). In teamfights he has a 1 second CC that brings him into the fight, a cone attack (which is pretty powerful against champions, more so than minions) and (perhaps the only thing he can offer if he's not doing well) a clean up ability (AKA: His E's passive combined with his Q).

As for why he isn't played often in top? Well to be perfectly honest, early game top doesn't seem to matter in the long run. I've often wondered what top is suppose to be for. Midlane is the shortest route and easiest to gank (maybe) so usually you want to push that lane hard. Botlane has the ADC (usually if not always a marksmen) and support, and since the ADC seems to be the most important role for winning (cause of tower kill potential) they must get fed or shut down early. I've seen games where 4 of the enemy team rush bot to shut down the ADC.

But top? What's important about top? You mostly have your guys like DrMundo Malphite Rumble Shyvana Singed Shen Sion Vladimir, etc. Champions who are melee, considerably tough, and can dish out damage. They just seem to duke it out to get stronger so they'll be able to provide a frontline for teamfights. If you're getting bullied by the guy chucking a spear, then you can sacrifice your tower while starving him of more kills while you CS under the second and leave him to be attacked from behind from over extending (which he'll do if he doesn't just roam after the first tower. Which I do a lot because having two gankers helps). If all you need is to farm CS to catch up, then you're good. If you offer more utility/peel than straight up killing power in teamfights you're good. Or you could just hold him off so he won't gank because he doesn't want to lose his tower.

(Side note: Yes I know assassins are played in toplane. I tend to see the jungle as the assassins playground).

So why isn't he played toplane? Because** toplane doesn't matter early game.** He's not a great choice for top (but I still love playing him there) and makes a better jungler (I suck at jungle and there are better junglers. I want to say it's personal preference, but there are better junglers that also scale into late game better). So unless you're on a team that pushes the finish the game early and works together, a strong early game lane bully that falls off mid to late is not a great toplaner when you could have a tank instead.

He's fun, underrated, but requires more effort ("oh but he has point and click abilities" they also cost a lot of mana. He has no escapes, so it's usually do or die with him. If he's running away from a fight he can't win, he's most likely going to die in his attempt if he doesn't have summoner 4 up. Especially since his only CC sends him directly to the guy chasing him and lasts 1 second) to be successful in the long run and I suppose people don't want to deal with that. People may also find him boring to play, I really only like his ult for it's positioning, I find his W boring, and his E active dull. He's not rewarding unless you put in a lot of effort with success, he's not dangerous late game unless you're at low health (and with all the escapes people have, you can probably get away), and one of his best strengths is in a lane that doesn't matter. You could say he's great at split pushing, but that's only because he can get to a tower faster. He doesn't hit fast enough or hard enough without items. Tryndamere is a better pusher.

It's more a result of the meta than anything else. I'm not gonna stop maining him in toplane, I find each victory I get with him very satisfying because of how unchanged his kit is compared to the rest. But he has a much harder time coming back if he's shut down, sometimes he doesn't.

Just my 2 cents.

Nyris149/28/2015, 9:12:30 AM1 votes

Ok, so I heard what yall said and realized that yall were right; that Pantheon's late game is weak by comparison to his early game. But, rather than trying to find another champ to use I decided to try and find a way to make his late game work well...because I can be stubborn and determined like that :).

I recognize that I'm not an expert, but if yall would please stay with me here and then tell me if I'm wrong or maybe onto something.

Took some time to theory-craft builds to use with him and realized that he is a champ that exists right in the 'Goldilocks' zone, where if you build him with too much damage then he's too squishy and dead, but if you build him with too many tank items then he's useless as he won't do enough damage and he's not a tank; you got to equip him just right, with just enough tanking power and just enough damage output in order to remain relevant.

So what I've settled with so far (and had good results into late game thus far) is this:

  • Cleaver, Maw, Boots (ninja or treds based on the enemy team), Sterak's, Rav Hydra, and Dead Man's Plate (Obviously this assumes a balanced enemy team in ap/ad, parts can be swapped out as needed)

Typically I start building a Phage first (unless against ap, then a hexdrinker first), and depending on how the match is going (and the enemy make-up obviously) I finish the Black Cleaver first then, finish the maw next, then finish the boots, then sterak's, then the hydra and finish with the DMP.

I know that conventional wisdom says to build a Tiamat and finish a Hydra quickly, but I've found that the combo of health/damage/and debuff from the Cleaver helps the team more effectively quickly, while adding on the damage/tank from the maw and sterak's keeps you relevant and prevents you from getting easily blown up in mid-game. Add in the hydra, and you've got the late game damage that you need and the dmp gives you mobility, added survivability and a good starting hit for fights.

For team fights, you follow the tank in where possible, and if you have to engage then the build gives you just enough staying power to help swing things by debuffing, stunning, and getting the most out of your items.

It's not ideal, but it's worked well for me so far, maybe it'll help yall; regardless though, what do yall think?