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Played 164 games and have more questions than when I started =/

Vekkna·5/7/2015, 4:36:57 PM·4 votes·1,649 views

I started playing exactly 1 month ago and love the game so far. I've played a few different champs with mixed success in various roles. I have already improved a LOT and have done lots of reading on these boards and guides posted elsewhere.

The problem is that I have a lot of questions I can't seem to find the answers to. I was really surprised that I couldn't find a forum anywhere about champ-specific discussion in particular. Most guides are so old that, even when they're updated, the comments and discussion are mostly useless.

I guess I will just post all my questions here and hope for some bites. Any help or resources would be appreciated!

GENERAL

  1. How can I get a better idea of my strength versus an opponent? For example, I see Irelia at 10% hp, and I go for the kill as Sona at 100% hp. I hit her 4 times, but I die first. Obviously, I misjudged the situation, but at super low hp, it seemed like a good opportunity! How do you learn to stop making this mistake with various champ matchups?

  2. As support, what are the rules/etiquette on leaving farm for your ADC versus accomplishing objectives? Specifically, how do you learn to balance pushing lane/turret without CS? Or helping secure champ kills without KS? How do you judge what kills are "guaranteed" ADC feed when it never feels like any kill is guaranteed?

META

  1. I don't understand the reasons for fixed lane roles. For example, let's say your team picks Trynd top, Jayce mid, Vi jg, and Janna sup. I'm left with ADC, but the whole rest of the team picked physical dps. I understand the meta behind ADC, but in a situation like this it makes sense to pick a high-scaling magic champ like Cassio. She scales super well with farm, has good poke, and forcing magic resist makes the whole rest of your team more effective. Why is this the wrong decision?

  2. I've done extremely well taking Morgana top, but I get called a troll for it sometimes. It's easy to push the lane hard and get lots of minion damage on a turret while avoiding ganks and getting great poke. If you already have a tanky jg and fighter/tank support, why would this be a bad choice if the results are good? Likewise, I feel like I'd do pretty well as Karma in mid, but I'm told she's bot-only.

  3. I frequently get comments when picking a champ that "X is only for Y role right now." For example, Kayle support or Elise....anywhere on the map. Guides are not helpful here (eg the highest-rated Janna guide I found was AP midlaner). How am I supposed to know which champs can go where, which are off-meta hipster picks, and which are fail/troll picks? Everyone says Elise is jg-only (and still godawful). Riot says Elise is a mage, mages go allegedly go mid, so why can't Elise go mid? I'm told Kayle is mid-only. Riot says Kayle is a support, supports go bot, so why can't Kayle go bot? Help!

  4. Champs like Katarina, Zed, LeBlanc, and Sejuani are banned in every draft game. Others are banned often enough to not bother learning to play for a new role (Volibear, Gragas, Wukong, Fizz, Udyr, Fiora, etc). This is frustrating to me because I bought Fiora, LeBlanc, and Katarina (and all their skins) because they look cool and filled roles I need to learn. Why doesn't Riot take action to tone some of these down to promote more ban diversity so we can play champs we paid for? I'm told that my experience of dying instantly when a Katarina or Zed is on the screen is normal, so can anyone explain why Tormented Soil gets nerfed while 1-shot-wonders are effectively unplayable in draft but still being sold?

STRATEGY

  1. How do you know when to start roaming during laning?

  2. How do you know when to chase instead of falling back and pushing objectives?

  3. When should I be joining teamfights instead of staying in lane to farm or guard towers? My instinct is to join when I see 4 v 4 or 5 v 4, but when I'm top lane, my teammates often tell me to just stay up there and push/farm.

CHAMP-SPECIFIC QUESTIONS

  1. I love playing Irelia, but I have no clue how to not get rekt by everything from levels 1-5.

  2. I love Syndra but have very mixed success with her in mid. I'm told that she is "off-meta" right now because assassins are dominating midlane. Hugging turret does nothing for me when Master Yi jumps out of jungle or Zed is lane opponent. All of her guides talk about how powerful she is without addressing my problems of perma-oom and being killed on sight.

BUILDING

  1. Dying is bad, but I'm told that building defensive items is also bad. Using my example above where I'm killed on sight by a teleporting/invulnerable target I can't even attack, it makes sense to me to build a Ninja Tabi instead of Sorc Shoes. Or when I need mana and CDR to build the Frozen Heart. But what I hear over and over again is "build a Zohnya's and never build anything else with armor." Why, though?

  2. Some item builds seem really good to me, but I NEVER see anyone use them. For example, building both a Lich Bane and a Iceborn Gauntlet end game on Sona. Or building both an Archangel's Staff and a Manamune on a squishy, mana-hungry champ like Syndra. On paper, it looks to me like infinite skill spam, a massive shield, and a team-fight burst toggle. The question is this: If nobody is using it, should I assume it's terrible and not even try it out?

  3. On support champs, I've done far better building Talisman of Ascension over Frost Queen because of the movement speed and on-use. Frost Queen is recommended on Sona, Karma, and Nami, but I do worse with it. Should I use what works or what I'm "supposed to" use?

  4. Of all the champs I've played, CDR and mana feel like the highest priorities to build. I've learned to not use spells on minions unless it means 3-6 last-hits and to poke conservatively. But when my opponent goes all-in on me, I'm oom after the fight and have to B regardless of whether I win. Yet advice and guides almost never prioritize mana sustain during laning, and I'm frowned upon for using Clarity. I can't figure out how to make this work. As a result, I've done far better playing support or poke champs (Sona, Morg, Cassio) and struggle badly playing mage against assassin. Advice?

  5. I like building Archangel Staff, Rod of Ages, or Liandry's because I can feel a difference in my survivability with the extra hp/shield. These items seem to be viewed as sub-par AP items that have their niches, not as defensive items with strong offense. Instead of building straight AP items and then building a strong defense item at the end, why not build balanced items throughout the game? In other words, if being a glass cannon means dying more, should a newer player build AP items with survival attributes to avoid feeding while still contributing to the team?

TL;DR: I need information resources and don't know where to find them. Pick a question, and throw me some sage advice! =D

25 Comments

mvargus5/7/2015, 6:02:15 PM3 votes

I can't point out any one place. A lot of my learning was in game or talking to other players, but I can try to answer some of your questions.

GENERAL

  1. How can I get a better idea of my strength versus an opponent? For example, I see Irelia at 10% hp, and I go for the kill as Sona at 100% hp. I hit her 4 times, but I die first. Obviously, I misjudged the situation, but at super low hp, it seemed like a good opportunity! How do you learn to stop making this mistake with various champ matchups?

This is mostly a case of learning champs, their power spikes and abilities and remembering to check what everyone on the other team is building for items. Irelia has a number of abilities that heal her as she attacks and if she has the right items she could easily survive auto-attacks from Sona. Sadly, the only way to learn this is to play the champs. Experience is the only teacher here.

  1. As support, what are the rules/etiquette on leaving farm for your ADC versus accomplishing objectives? Specifically, how do you learn to balance pushing lane/turret without CS? Or helping secure champ kills without KS? How do you judge what kills are "guaranteed" ADC feed when it never feels like any kill is guaranteed?

Ah. I play a lot of support and my attitude towards CS kills is that I only want to attack a minion if I'm running relic shield and its up, or my ADC is not in the lane (backing usually). as for securing champ kills, I know a lot of ADCs will get upset about KS if you do it often, but the kill is more important than who got it. If you have a clear shot on someone who is running away or someone who is beating on the ADC take it.

META

  1. I don't understand the reasons for fixed lane roles. For example, let's say your team picks Trynd top, Jayce mid, Vi jg, and Janna sup. I'm left with ADC, but the whole rest of the team picked physical dps. I understand the meta behind ADC, but in a situation like this it makes sense to pick a high-scaling magic champ like Cassio. She scales super well with farm, has good poke, and forcing magic resist makes the whole rest of your team more effective. Why is this the wrong decision?

This could be a long post, but I'll try to make it simple. First there are really 4 gold sources, each lane and the jungle. early players divided up the roles based on 4 players getting gold and then a fifth who back then didn't get much (now we have support items that give passive gold.). They then looked at how to win, one thing you needed was a late game heavy damage dealer (an ADC), but many didn't do well early, so the one not getting gold would support them early. They went bot lane because killing the dragon was a vital strategy. Midlane became the place for highly mobile damage dealers both because it saw minions arrive fastest, but because you could roam. Jungle and Top are basically places you can put anyone.

As for Cassio at ADC, the problem is that while she scales well she also needs levels which she'll get more slowly in a duo lane. Add in her shorter range, slower auto-attack and she doesn't lane well in bot lane. But I agree, an AP version of an ADC is nice. Try Varus or Corki as both have a lot of AP based abilities.

  1. I've done extremely well taking Morgana top, but I get called a troll for it sometimes. If you already have a tanky jg and fighter/tank support, why would this be a bad choice if the results are good? Likewise, I feel like I'd do pretty well as Karma in mid, but I'm told she's bot-only.

Its not a bad choice, it just worries a lot of players. The meta has grown up around what has worked, so seeing a Morgana top lane bothers players who have seen weak picks up there get wrecked. Karma mid actually used to be meta, but right now she can't wave clear and some nerfs in late season 4 made it so assassins could bully her hard. At your level you probably don't see this as much because you aren't level 30. Once you start playing ranked you'll find that many off-meta picks that used to work now don't.

  1. I frequently get comments when picking a champ that "X is only for Y role right now." How am I supposed to know which champs can go where, which are off-meta hipster picks, and which are fail/troll picks? Everyone says Elise is jg-only (and still godawful). Riot says Elise is a mage, mages go allegedly go mid, so why can't Elise go mid? I'm told Kayle is mid-only. Riot says Kayle is a support, supports go bot, so why can't Kayle go bot? Help!

Again, you are running into the fact that people have played champs and learned how they work. Elise doesn't go mid because she can't wave clear against most of the more popular picks. Elise is best in the jungle and she's barely useful there due to her quirky abilities and poor scaling. Kayle can go bot, but she turns bot lane into a kill lane due to the nature of her kit and many ADCs hate playing in a kill lane, so they've tried to get Kayle blocked from the lane. This is something you learn over time.

  1. Champs like Katarina, Zed, LeBlanc, and Sejuani are banned in every draft game. Others are banned often enough to not bother learning to play for a new role (Volibear, Gragas, Wukong, Fizz, Udyr, Fiora, etc). , so can anyone explain why are effectively unplayable in draft but still being sold?

Katarina and Zed are two of the most annoying champs in the game, but over time you'll see them enough to learn how to deal with them. I'll agree that Katarina is still a very common ban, but Zed isn't in the ranked matches I play (he gets banned a lot less than some others.). Right now assassins are still very popular, but the meta has been slowly moving against them. Eventually they will drop out of the top tier and new champs will be banned. Sejuani only became a "must ban" about 3 weeks ago after the buffs to cinderhulk came out. The bans will change in the future.

STRATEGY

  1. How do you know when to start roaming during laning?

Depends on the champ you are playing, your opponent and the situation. Some champs need to roam early and often, (Katarina, Ahri, Talon, Riven) Others might never leave the lane except to back (Nasus.)

  1. How do you know when to chase instead of falling back and pushing objectives?

Never chase if you don't have vision.

  1. When should I be joining teamfights instead of staying in lane to farm or guard towers? My instinct is to join when I see 4 v 4 or 5 v 4, but when I'm top lane, my teammates often tell me to just stay up there and push/farm.

again it depends on the situation. Bot and Mid usually start teamfighting after the outer turrets fall. Top might never leave lane if they are a great split push champ. (or Teemo, but let's not talk about him. :P )

CHAMP-SPECIFIC QUESTIONS

  1. I love playing Irelia, but I have no clue how to not get rekt by everything from levels 1-5.

I struggle too, practice and play passively while farming is all I can suggest.

  1. I love Syndra but have very mixed success with her in mid. All of her guides talk about how powerful she is without addressing my problems of perma-oom and being killed on sight.

The meta and some nerfs to mana regen really hurt he. You need to rush some mana regen and work to use spells a bit less early. Once you have more mana she can shine. (Also see if your jungler will let you have blue buff)

BUILDING

  1. Dying is bad, but I'm told that building defensive items is also bad.

Depends on the champ. A heavy carry like Syndra is supposed to be all damage, so Zhonya's is all anyone will recommend. YOur team is supposed to protect you while you do damage. However Irelia might only build 1 damage item most games. It's very situational.

  1. Some item builds seem really good to me, but I NEVER see anyone use them. The question is this: If nobody is using it, should I assume it's terrible and not even try it out?

Usually means people feel that the gold is better spent elsewhere. Best I can recommend is test it in a normal match and see if it works for you.

  1. On support champs, I've done far better building Talisman of Ascension over Frost Queen because of the movement speed and on-use. Should I use what works or what I'm "supposed to" use?

Use what works for you.

  1. Of all the champs I've played, CDR and mana feel like the highest priorities to build. As a result, I've done far better playing support or poke champs (Sona, Morg, Cassio) and struggle badly playing mage against assassin. Advice?

Midlane mages often now rush Athene's for the mana regen. You might still struggle some, but the regen does help a ton.

  1. I like building Archangel Staff, Rod of Ages, or Liandry's because I can feel a difference in my survivability with the extra hp/shield. These items seem to be viewed as sub-par AP items that have their niches, not as defensive items with strong offense. Instead of building straight AP items and then building a strong defense item at the end, why not build balanced items throughout the game? In other words, if being a glass cannon means dying more, should a newer player build AP items with survival attributes to avoid feeding while still contributing to the team?

I rush Rod of Ages on Cassiopeia when/if I play her and Zhonya's is often my 3rd or 4th item for any mage. Abyssal Scepter is another good hybrid item. (costly though, not always worth the gold.) If you want to build defense do.

FHMarshy5/7/2015, 4:48:21 PM3 votes

Add me, FHmarshy, and ask me whenever you have questions.

Junsui Aoi5/7/2015, 4:57:43 PM3 votes

These guys are great, just make sure you check the dates on their videos :) Youtube is a great resource since they can't just update the same guide and have old comments on it. Jeremy GamingCurios Phylol

GENERAL "1) How can I get a better idea of my strength versus an opponent?" As a Sona main, I feel your pain. But here are some tips.

  1. Look at their build. If you are a Sona and they built MR (magic resist), then you probably won't get as much damage off as you'd like. In general, a support shouldn't greed for a kill
  2. Look at the champ. Certain champs are really good at tricking you into thinking they're vulnerable. Akali, Riven, and yes, even Irelia fall under this. They either do quick damage, or have ways to prevent you from doing damage (sheild/stuns). This is a 'more you play' type of thing to learn which low health champs you can try that on. But if you have lich bane, and your q powerchord stay and they're SQUISHY, then you can try it. but make sure your mana is up.

"2) As support, what are the rules/etiquette on leaving farm for your ADC versus accomplishing objectives? Specifically, how do you learn to balance pushing lane/turret without CS? Or helping secure champ kills without KS? How do you judge what kills are "guaranteed" ADC feed when it never feels like any kill is guaranteed?" Well, as a support main I hope this helps XD Leave all the farm. You may pick up some when trying to harass (Sona Q, Soraka Q, Blitz ulti), but do your best to leave it for them. Now, if they backed, you're free to last hit. You only last hit instead of constantly hitting so that you don't push the wave in the enemies favor. It also leaves the most minions for your ADC. Under turret, there are more specific things you have to do. Early levels: hit the melee minion once (unless you're lulu), two turret shots, hit again. Caster: hit once, one turret shot, hit again. Takes practice, and its pretty hard as a support with no AD, but you'll get it. When pushing, I like to single hit the high health minions, so that they're lower. Sometimes you can hit them down to half if your minions aren't focusing them. You can hit the cannon a few times as well, but again, try not to go below half. This way you help push, but you don't take any either. Securing kills. This is a tough one. If your adc looks like they might die otherwise, throw everything at the enemy. If the adc looks like they won't get it, then take it. An assist is better than nothing. But if you're uncertain, you can probably walk alongside the enemy and see if the adc will get it, and if they can't, then you're in a position to take it. I already mentioned if they look like they'll die, but the other thing is what if they'll flash? I'm sorry, I already launched my power chord suck it up. The adc needs to understand that sometimes they won't get the kill. Happens even in the LCS. Now. Don't go 4/0 if your adc is like 1/2. They need the gold more because their build is more expensive.

Feel free to add me if you want to chat. I have curse voice, and my IGN is Junsui Aoi I'm a SIV support main, and been supporting since season 3.

AMYS GRAVE5/7/2015, 8:06:11 PM2 votes

There are some really good questions here that are definitely not really documented anywhere.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_of_Legends_Wiki

is probably the best source of information for champion and items, and learning to build them can be personal choice mixed with understanding their kits and items. For example AP garen is a terrible thing because he doesn't have anything that scales with AP. CDR ryze is bad because he gets 30% cdr from his ult and there is a 40% cdr hard cap. etc....

GENERAL

  1. How can I get a better idea of my strength versus an opponent? For example, I see Irelia at 10% hp, and I go for the kill as Sona at 100% hp. I hit her 4 times, but I die first. Obviously, I misjudged the situation, but at super low hp, it seemed like a good opportunity! How do you learn to stop making this mistake with various champ matchups?

This is really something that you have to learn through experience. There is so much that goes into this that can really be used to subvert expectations in an engagement. Champion matchups, Summoner spells, champion level, builds, ults being off cd, etc... all play a part in this.

  1. As support, what are the rules/etiquette on leaving farm for your ADC versus accomplishing objectives? Specifically, how do you learn to balance pushing lane/turret without CS? Or helping secure champ kills without KS? How do you judge what kills are "guaranteed" ADC feed when it never feels like any kill is guaranteed?

Generally speaking you don't want to take any cs that your adc could in princple take unless you have a relic shield/targons brace/face of the mountain charge ready. Exactly how you help manipulate the wave is a delicate thing that takes quite a bit of practice to learn to do properly. Learning to cs properly as a solo laner will help with this.

META

  1. I don't understand the reasons for fixed lane roles. For example, let's say your team picks Trynd top, Jayce mid, Vi jg, and Janna sup. I'm left with ADC, but the whole rest of the team picked physical dps. I understand the meta behind ADC, but in a situation like this it makes sense to pick a high-scaling magic champ like Cassio. She scales super well with farm, has good poke, and forcing magic resist makes the whole rest of your team more effective. Why is this the wrong decision?

This actually isn't the wrong decision. The meta is sort of hard to describe but it is in general the strategy that wins the most games and/or is what is the most popular at the time, and the bot lane adc/support has been a very stable and successful one. If your team picked Trynd Jace and Vi leaving you to last pick adc then that's poor champion select choices on their part. Unfortunatly you'll probably get flamed for taking cass bot just because people dont understand what they've done, but there are some adcs who have mixed damage that would be good in that situation. Kogmaw and corki come to mind. If you are interested in doing things a bit differently youtuber solwolf has some good fun to watch videos in his breaking the meta series where he takes champions in roles that they aren't normally seen.

  1. I've done extremely well taking Morgana top, but I get called a troll for it sometimes. It's easy to push the lane hard and get lots of minion damage on a turret while avoiding ganks and getting great poke. If you already have a tanky jg and fighter/tank support, why would this be a bad choice if the results are good? Likewise, I feel like I'd do pretty well as Karma in mid, but I'm told she's bot-only.

Sorta same thing, people get upset at things they don't understand. There's nothing inherently wrong with morg top.

  1. I frequently get comments when picking a champ that "X is only for Y role right now." For example, Kayle support or Elise....anywhere on the map. Guides are not helpful here (eg the highest-rated Janna guide I found was AP midlaner). How am I supposed to know which champs can go where, which are off-meta hipster picks, and which are fail/troll picks? Everyone says Elise is jg-only (and still godawful). Riot says Elise is a mage, mages go allegedly go mid, so why can't Elise go mid? I'm told Kayle is mid-only. Riot says Kayle is a support, supports go bot, so why can't Kayle go bot? Help!

Sorta same thing, people get upset at things they don't understand. There's nothing inherently wrong with any of this. I've actually done Kayle support and Elise support as well. If you know what each positions job is then you can do it with most (or at least many) champions. The reason Elise support kind of works is because she has good poke, and her cocoon is good hard cc which can be used to protect your adc. Just think about what the champion brings to that role and utilize it and you'll be good. Understanding what each role brings is why UoL was able to bring Twisted Fate jungle and make it successful.

  1. Champs like Katarina, Zed, LeBlanc, and Sejuani are banned in every draft game. Others are banned often enough to not bother learning to play for a new role (Volibear, Gragas, Wukong, Fizz, Udyr, Fiora, etc). This is frustrating to me because I bought Fiora, LeBlanc, and Katarina (and all their skins) because they look cool and filled roles I need to learn. Why doesn't Riot take action to tone some of these down to promote more ban diversity so we can play champs we paid for? I'm told that my experience of dying instantly when a Katarina or Zed is on the screen is normal, so can anyone explain why Tormented Soil gets nerfed while 1-shot-wonders are effectively unplayable in draft but still being sold?

Yeah, turns out balance is a tricky thing. Personally i miss playing Sej but it happens.

STRATEGY

  1. How do you know when to start roaming during laning?

Ask yourself a few questions. Can my team take an objective if i leave this lane? Can my team take the objective if i don't leave this lane? Can the enemy take an objective (usually your tower) if i leave this lane? Can the enemy team take an objective if i don't leave this lane? Is the objective we are taking more valuable than the one the enemies get? If you leave and can get a kill, how long will it take? will the enemy get cs and deny you cs that perhaps outweighs the kill?

Understanding the value of objectives is one of the hardest things to assess in a game, and there probably isn't a fixed "this objective is better than that one" hierarchy because the situation and team comp dictate that to a certain degree. Is the second dragon better than an outer turret? is it worth teleporting to save a tower? These are non-trivial questions that seperate the silver from the gold from the plat etc....

  1. How do you know when to chase instead of falling back and pushing objectives?

Another big question. Ask yourself "can my team take the objective without me? if no then take the objective, if yes then ask yourself if i chase this kill can the enemy team collapse on me and kill me for it? In general dont chase into the fog of war, it ends badly most of the time. Going 1 kill for 1 kill is almost always bad because it minimizes the influence your team can have on the game. If your top laner goes 20-20-0 then they are fed sure, but they have created a monster that no one on your team can deal with.

  1. When should I be joining teamfights instead of staying in lane to farm or guard towers? My instinct is to join when I see 4 v 4 or 5 v 4, but when I'm top lane, my teammates often tell me to just stay up there and push/farm.

Same sort of thought process as when you should roam. Often by the time you can walk down to a teamfight then its already over, so ask yourself if your leaving can lead to something or if you will get there too late.

LegendaryLemur5/7/2015, 4:55:35 PM2 votes

I've only skimmed your post, but i think most of the answers are : "don't be a meta sheep. Don't listen to the meta sheep"

usul12025/7/2015, 8:29:40 PM2 votes

Okay, so i'm not a pro player by any means, but i spend time on the boards, and am a pretty methodical player, so i'll try and answer everything.

{quoted}

  1. How can I get a better idea of my strength versus an opponent? For example, I see Irelia at 10% hp, and I go for the kill as Sona at 100% hp. I hit her 4 times, but I die first. Obviously, I misjudged the situation, but at super low hp, it seemed like a good opportunity! How do you learn to stop making this mistake with various champ matchups?

The biggest thing here, is to know what every champion in the game needs to be strong. That sounds extreme, but it's actually not that bad. If Irelia just got her trinity force, she's one of the strongest champs in the game, and is going to probs go full tank. Riven just hit 6? run like hell. It's not just items, its knowing who power spikes (or dips!) when. That comes from practice, and learning about the champ. one huge thing i've learned, is that if i hate a champion, i look up their mobafire guides. Because those will have pros and cons of the champ, and will generally talk about when they're weak, which you can exploit. Learning about champions you're bad against is extremely helpful.

{quoted}

  1. As support, what are the rules/etiquette on leaving farm for your ADC versus accomplishing objectives? Specifically, how do you learn to balance pushing lane/turret without CS? Or helping secure champ kills without KS? How do you judge what kills are "guaranteed" ADC feed when it never feels like any kill is guaranteed?

There are 2 ways of playing support at lower levels of play, and they depend on your support type. Theres the sheep, and the herder. The sheep is what i play on supports like sona, soraka, and nami, passive supps, generally healers, that are more utility. You follow your ADC, when they make it clear they're pushing wave, you help by weakening back line minions, but never take CS unless you have a item 3097 Let your adc control the lane, and work with them. If you play sona or the like, you're gonna steal kills. it happens. Spam your supp in games until you learn your kill power, and then push it to the limit. get them as low as possible, and then give your ADC a chance. most adcs will be greedy and take everything, even if they flash for it. Remember their flash timings if you can.

Herder Supports are the opposite, You baby your ADC through the phase, and you decide when shits happening. This is like leona, When leona decides to engage, its go time. Your ADC still controls CS (and poke more as well, since herder supps are generally less poke oriented) but you have to decide when you're gonna all in. You're more likely to have a taragons here. General tip: before minions even spawn, just type out "hey, i've got a taragons, and am going to be grabbing the cannon minions so that we both get gold, and get healed, okay?". This will go miles to help getting you and your ADC to work together.

Controlling the lane is not your job as supp, unless your ADC is gone. In that situation, if there are no enemies (and won't be fore 20+ seconds) shove hard, bounce the wave off the enemy tower to deny them CS, and then let the lane freeze at the river. If there are enemies, then let the lane push near your tower, then freeze it just outside tower range. you will take damage yes, but your ADC will love the hell out of you for giving them an extra free wave of farm.

{quoted}

  1. I don't understand the reasons for fixed lane roles. For example, let's say your team picks Trynd top, Jayce mid, Vi jg, and Janna sup. I'm left with ADC, but the whole rest of the team picked physical dps. I understand the meta behind ADC, but in a situation like this it makes sense to pick a high-scaling magic champ like Cassio. She scales super well with farm, has good poke, and forcing magic resist makes the whole rest of your team more effective. Why is this the wrong decision?

Its actually not there imo, but only on cass, because cass actually functions as an AP ADC with her E mechanic. If you can play cass, it works, if not, don't. Its a painful lane.

Now then, the reason the meta exists is kinda funky. The meta is created by what beats the previous meta. For example, the last meta was assassin mids, because they shit on mage mids, who were the meta before. now we're getting tank mids like chogath though, who shits on assassins. Same with top, it rotats around through bruisers and tanks and sustain mages. There technically isn't anything wrong with all AD (although it makes itemizing for the other team easy) because your objective control is insane, but meh, it happens. As a former cass main, i would take her there, but if you don't respect an ADC's power poke as a squishy mage, you'll get wrecked.

  1. I've done extremely well taking Morgana top, but I get called a troll for it sometimes. It's easy to push the lane hard and get lots of minion damage on a turret while avoiding ganks and getting great poke. If you already have a tanky jg and fighter/tank support, why would this be a bad choice if the results are good? Likewise, I feel like I'd do pretty well as Karma in mid, but I'm told she's bot-only.

This is a wonderful choice. Why? Because it counters the meta. Meta top is tanky (her W beats health stacking) sustain (her passive gives her an edge) mobile (her Q beats that) champs. So what morg does is fights the current meta well. However, because of that, she's not part of the current meta. This means 2 things, if you get a current meta champ, you'll have an advantageous lane, which is common. However, if you get a power champion like galio, or a big poker like jayce/nidalee, you're screwed far more than meta champions. if you're comfortable with the risk, and you're good at the champion, play it. Tell them you're good at it, and they can decide based on the final score.

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  1. I frequently get comments when picking a champ that "X is only for Y role right now." For example, Kayle support or Elise....anywhere on the map. Guides are not helpful here (eg the highest-rated Janna guide I found was AP midlaner). How am I supposed to know which champs can go where, which are off-meta hipster picks, and which are fail/troll picks? Everyone says Elise is jg-only (and still godawful). Riot says Elise is a mage, mages go allegedly go mid, so why can't Elise go mid? I'm told Kayle is mid-only. Riot says Kayle is a support, supports go bot, so why can't Kayle go bot? Help!

Again, this is all what works with, counters, and is countered by the current meta. I don't know kayle too well, but i can flesh out elise for you. Elise is classified as a mage because she's AP based, and her damage comes from abilities, not from autoattacks. That is the base mage classification. However, this doesn't make her a midlaner, because her power requires melee range, but she doesn't 100-0 people well. This puts her at the mercy of both mages, and assassins, the current meta. That being said, She is a great jungler and top, because she has excellent sustain, very rare for a mage. this lets fill traditionally non-mage roles. (Also, the reason you see janna mid, is because of her fantastic disengage. she just laughs her ass off at assassins, and there's nothing they can do under extreme levels of play). So, they key to finding where people can go is looking at their kit, not their classification. Here's my take on each role:

ADC: sustained damage at a range. Cass is one of the few mages who fit in this area because of her E reset. ADCs just win the the high sustained catagory. Supports: anyone who generally doesn't need as much gold as other roles to be effective and has something in their kit that allows another player to get fed. This can be anything from CC like leona to shields and heals like sona, to extreme peel/poke like syndra and velkoz. Its all about feeding them early game, and protecting them late game. Mid: Generally people with the power to kill an ADC, this is the person that you want leveled up the fastest to have the biggest impact on the game, early. They can roam, they get buffs from jungle, they have straight power. Mages and assassins dominate here, because they have a shot at removing the other teams ADC or other fed person. Jungle: You need sustain of some sort (natural tankiness, regen, shield, heals, something), and anything to help with a gank. For most meta junglers, its a lot of CC, although terrifying burst is an option, with junglers like lee sin, who won't be insecing every gank. Top: Sustain. You're far away from dragon and bot lane, so you won't be getting much jungler attention normally. You have to be able to effectively lane 2v1, in case the other teams jungler camps top (best case scenario for the team, as it gives your team access to dragon for free). Top and jungle will traditionally have at least one, maybe both roles be tanky, to survive engages.

There's actually a character limit on here, so i am going to finish this up in a reply to this post. I apologize for spelling mistakes. Every champ name and league abbreviation gets a red line under it, so I'm sure i missed something.

T RexHasTinyArms5/8/2015, 11:47:42 PM2 votes

General: The first is in part just experience. If you play the match up and champ you're on frequently you will know better. I play a lot of Heimerdinger and can tell you when I will win or lose a fight w/ him better than I can with any other champ. He also has a 4% pick rate so a lot of people aren't used to him and I get kills on jungle or my lane opponent bc they misjudge the amount that they can do vs what I can do. The last part would be learning what changes the damage. I generally look at what my opponent's items are every time they leave and come back. I do a lot less to Irelia as an AP champ if she has negatron cloak than if she has sheen. Similarly I win a lot of 2v1s when I get ganked bc people think they can kill me and I take heal instead of ignite pretty often so when they dive and can't kill me I can turn it around pretty often.

This is more opinion. I think any ADC that complains the support took the kill is a bad player. I'll hand it over if I'm on a utility champ and KNOW they have it, but if I'm Annie I run ignite support and get tons of kills. The lane is still dead so my ADC gets an advantage (albeit a smaller one for assist than kill) and when I roam people expect me to do less damage then I do since they think I'll be poorer and have less stats than I do. Also anytime we could get a tower if we shoved then I don't care who gets the CS as long as we get the tower, bc it makes it easier to cs when I go back to lane after buying.

Meta:

  1. ADC is the highest sustained damage, while you could argue that an AP champ would be better in that case, 90% of games won't be ALL AD, and if they are it's an issue since stacking armor will wreck your team. Meta is generally meta since it is what is strongest IN GENERAL right then. Specific situations can justify other stuff though, like vlad is strong in the current tank meta bc there aren't people to burst him down and he scales well to do sustained damage late game. If the enemy picked two assassins already though he isn't a good pick bc meta is overall picture, not that particular game.

  2. People in low elo are frequently bad at the game. Don't mind it and work on improving. I play Heimerdinger top and people complain sometimes, but he's really good there and has a lot of positive match ups. Pro players play Morgana top sometimes bc she has great wave clear and sustain, plus black shield and binding can save her in ganks pretty well. People rage about stuff they aren't used to or don't understand, but if you have a reason for going somewhere then it is probably a good option if you understand why and it will be strong.

  3. Usually it's the strength of the champ in respective role. Kayle can play support, but other supports may be stronger at the job she does, while the same isn't true for mid/top or something. However, if you're stronger w/ that champ bc you play them better than the other champs that do the same job, go w/ the one you play better and tell your team that. Most people are in favor of you playing something you're stronger w/ bc you understand them, and if you can explain what the strengths and weaknesses of a champ in a particular role are then people will trust you more. Basically just know why you're doing something if you do it.

  4. Champs that are strong rotate. Also Zed, Kat, and other assassins are meant to delete people. Often the people who say it was based on the champ played the match up wrong. I love playing vs assassins in ranked bc Heimer needs people to come to him. When I run exhaust and drop it on an assassin as they come at me it is 95% a free kill if I can land my stun bc even if they live through the stun and damage that comes at them, they didn't deal enough to me on their first burst that they can kill me out of the stun.

Strat:

The answer to all is experience. If every game you focus on "was that the right choice" eventually it will become second nature. I make decent roams now, bc I failed at them a whole lot before. Now I can judge mostly accurately if the minion wave is pushing right for the enemy to still be pushed up when I get there or if they will be pushed in when I get there bc the wave bounced off tower. Also any time you kill the opponent, look for dragon, tower, or a roam. Chasing depends on the game, how good is your champ at it, how slippery is theirs, do you have vision or are you risking walking into their team. If you are for sure able to get an objective go for the objective. If it is the jungle and you just killed the rest of them, it's probably worth chasing him while your team gets dragon or baron, even if you don't get the kill. That way he can't try to steal. Just try and think of what you give up and what the possible rewards or consequences are and you'll start making better decisions.

Champs:

Find streamers/youtube that focuses on that champ. Ireliacarriesu (I think that's who it is) is a really good Irelia who duos w/ Annie Bot (awesome annie main) sometimes and is probably a good person to watch. Also search How to top lane as a youtube search and you'll find a channel that has a ton of useful stuff and I think he's an irelia main too. I watch phasekiller on GBKTV on twitch bc he plays mostly Heimer and watching him I was able to see a lot of the little stuff he does and try it out. Some worked for me, some didn't, but I got way better.

Build:

This is another spot that "why am I doing this?" is more important than any advice I could give. If I play a champ w/ utility then building tanky isn't bad at all bc I can tank and be useful. If I'm a high damage champ w/ no utility/cc then tank items just make me easy to ignore. I think you're on the right track w/ support items, go w/ what works for you. You can try and learn the other style, but if you don't want to and win w/ different items you don't have to. I like lucidity boots over sorc boots on heimer and lots of people would tell me I'm wrong bc less damage is bad on a mage and all. However, I'd much rather have more turrets to place bc I'm capped on CDR and can rotate to other lanes frequently and have 3 turrets to drop and help push towers.

Hope that was somewhat helpful. GL learning, and remember, it's not so much about what you should do, but having a reason why you want to do it.

Vekkna5/12/2015, 4:08:39 PM1 votes

SO MUCH GREAT INFORMATION HERE!!

It's taken me a little while to read through and apply it all, but it has really helped me a lot in my last few games. I had a godawful losing streak playing Cassi and decided to really study up and write "reminder notes" to glance at throughout the game. The results last night felt like a huge step in the right direction. Here's what I changed, and I welcome comments/feedback:

  1. Wave Control: I think my #1 biggest noob error was overextending and not knowing how to NOT overextend. My first decent champ was Morgana because she's built for wave-clear and has tools to get her ass out of the fire when in gank territory. In other words, her kit let me make noob errors without being overly punished for them.

It honestly never even occurred to me to NOT attack minions or that I could control the pace of the clear to stay in a safer place in lane. Past middle of river is too risky, but I don't want tower killing minions, either. What I did exactly was this:

a) Run in circles and wait for minions to get a creep to last-hit. b) Too close to tower? Stand away from minion pack so enemy ability poke doesn't push lane. c) Too close to passing river? Stand on top of minion pack so enemy ability poke pushes you back to the safe zone. d) The same in reverse but accounting for ganks. If enemy is overextended and is standing in their minion pack, AA poke if you can rely on jg to help gank. And vice versa with downing tower. e) Keeping as many of their minions up as possible makes it harder for them to last-hit, especially if they have more than 6 minions and aren't used to the change of kill pace. If you speed-clear a wave, enemy is getting 90-100% CS.

On Cassi, the biggest change I made was dropping W behind the enemy minion pack (instead of under it) to get a little damage on enemy champ and force them into E poke range. It put them in "reaction mode" and had impact on their CS.

On Syndra, I focused on using W > R > E to maximize damage in duels and give me time to secure a kill with Q > W/AA or get away if the fight was un-winnable. I had previously been going Q > E > R and then chasing to try and hit with W. You can guess how well that worked out.

  1. Building for Sustain/Lane Control: A big problem on Syndra and Cassi was having to go back because I NEEDED to go back for either mana or hp (usually both)...or because I was dead. Last night I decided to run Flash/Clarity and start with a mana gem and 2 hp pots instead of Doran's. Doran's is a lot of stats to give up early, but the trade off was huge in terms of sustain and poke. The extra 200 starting mana plus the extra 100 per Clarity use is essentially doubling your available mana before first recall. I found that this gave me more latitude to punish enemy positioning errors and secure kills when the jg could gank. The end result was that I could poke the enemy into recall, clear the wave, have enough time to see what the enemy built, recall, buy, and get back to lane before they got to tower.

I also decided to go for a Hextech Revolver early. If you start with the mana gem, upgrading to Tear is only like 320 gold. Depending on what the enemy builds, I'll pick up the Revolver on first or second recall. It saved me a LOT of gold throughout the game, gave me far more sustain in lane, and let me push lanes late game instead of having to recall for hp.

  1. Rushing Isn't Always Better: Early on, I would either rush a pre-selected item if we were doing alright and buy whatever I could afford if I was dying a lot. This time I tried to anticipate what I would need earlier on based on their team comp and how the lanes were going. For example, if they have an AP mid and an AP jungle, I would go for Chalice instead of Tear. If I'm wrecking mid and our bot's falling behind, I get started building Zhonya's.

In other words, there are a lot of situations where it's fine to sit on a Chalice for a while and go back to building your AP items. Last night I sat on a Tear and the armor part of Zhonya's for quite a while because it was better to go for the Rabadon's or because their team started building MR. At 130 armor with 12-20% spellvamp, I wasn't getting blown up fast enough that finishing Zhonya's was the best choice.

  1. On Building Defense: So I started to realize that building proper defense as a mage isn't about building stronger items reactively so much as it's about building better items early enough to make a difference. I touched on this in #3. Instead of buying a Frozen Heart based on my death recap, I started thinking about my purchase order during draft pick and buying them earlier.

I think this worked for a few reasons. First, it helped me not feed and get behind. Second, if my enemy laner reacted by buying spell pen earlier, it can slow their roaming threat and snowball. If they sink almost 1500 gold into a Guise asap, they're going to be ganking with 55 less AP than if they had saved a little more and gotten a Needlessly Large Rod. I assume this is a net benefit to the team.

  1. On Roaming: In my losing steak with Cassi, I won my lane almost every game. I don't see her played very often, but I remember one game early on where I played support and the enemy Cassi mid would poke our mid into a recall and start griefing bot. It was kind of a nightmare.

I think part of the issue in the losing-streak was that the other side didn't care about losing lane when they assumed they didn't have to worry about me. By the time I left lane, we were teamfighting, but the other team had fed 2 v 1 mid and 3/4 v 2 bot enough times that it didn't matter.

So what I decided to do was focus on early poking and occasionally jump out of river on an overextended enemy top or bot. Even if we didn't get the kill, they were on notice that the lane wasn't going to be a free push.

  1. The Difference a Good JG Makes: My husband has been doing pretty great with Fiddlesticks jungle, and having the jungler playing in the same room makes all the difference in the world. First off, he can solo the dragon at level 3 or 4. We can actually coordinate ganks in lane and help each other with sight. Another fun thing we realized is that Cassi and Fiddles have really great synergy since my ult covers the delay on his ult. That said, we're still working out the kinks on when to disengage; it's a work in progress.

Thanks to everyone for all the answers and advice! I learned a ton of important information that I could put into practice, and I hope to see the difference it makes on other champs and roles as well.

Icestar11865/7/2015, 10:00:19 PM1 votes

GENERAL

  1. How can I get a better idea of my strength versus an opponent? For example, I see Irelia at 10% hp, and I go for the kill as Sona at 100% hp. I hit her 4 times, but I die first. Obviously, I misjudged the situation, but at super low hp, it seemed like a good opportunity! How do you learn to stop making this mistake with various champ matchups?

This comes as you learn what each champion's kit can do. A low health Irelia (her stun only triggers if her %hp is lower) or Olaf (higher attack speed at low hp) is much more dangerous than a low health Soraka, for example.

  1. As support, what are the rules/etiquette on leaving farm for your ADC versus accomplishing objectives? Specifically, how do you learn to balance pushing lane/turret without CS? Or helping secure champ kills without KS? How do you judge what kills are "guaranteed" ADC feed when it never feels like any kill is guaranteed?

Personally, I take CS only when the ADC isn't there, or I have Relic Shield charges. Knowing what kills are guaranteed requires practice and depends on the matchup. Personally, I think a KS is better than a missed opportunity, although you will eventually be able to tell when to help and when not.

META

  1. I don't understand the reasons for fixed lane roles. For example, let's say your team picks Trynd top, Jayce mid, Vi jg, and Janna sup. I'm left with ADC, but the whole rest of the team picked physical dps. I understand the meta behind ADC, but in a situation like this it makes sense to pick a high-scaling magic champ like Cassio. She scales super well with farm, has good poke, and forcing magic resist makes the whole rest of your team more effective. Why is this the wrong decision?

It isn't really a wrong decision, but people may not be used to supporting a Cassiopeia instead of an ADC. Also, people get pretty anal about the meta.

  1. I've done extremely well taking Morgana top, but I get called a troll for it sometimes. It's easy to push the lane hard and get lots of minion damage on a turret while avoiding ganks and getting great poke. If you already have a tanky jg and fighter/tank support, why would this be a bad choice if the results are good? Likewise, I feel like I'd do pretty well as Karma in mid, but I'm told she's bot-only.

It isn't a bad choice. People are just anal about the meta.

  1. I frequently get comments when picking a champ that "X is only for Y role right now." For example, Kayle support or Elise....anywhere on the map. Guides are not helpful here (eg the highest-rated Janna guide I found was AP midlaner). How am I supposed to know which champs can go where, which are off-meta hipster picks, and which are fail/troll picks? Everyone says Elise is jg-only (and still godawful). Riot says Elise is a mage, mages go allegedly go mid, so why can't Elise go mid? I'm told Kayle is mid-only. Riot says Kayle is a support, supports go bot, so why can't Kayle go bot? Help!

Any champion can theoretically go anywhere. Supports can often go top or mid, Nautilis used to be a jungler, and Gragas used to be built as a mage before Riot changed his scalings. I personally consider anything off-meta that has a chance of working to still be a decent pick. In my opinion, a troll pick is something like AP Yasuo, AP Pantheon, Tank Vayne, etc. In response to your questions about Kayle and Elise, Kayle can do just about anything with the right build (although she most often goes mid, support, or jungle), and Elise is able to go top, jungle, or maybe mid, although I agree that she is a slightly weaker pick in this meta.

  1. Champs like Katarina, Zed, LeBlanc, and Sejuani are banned in every draft game. Others are banned often enough to not bother learning to play for a new role (Volibear, Gragas, Wukong, Fizz, Udyr, Fiora, etc). This is frustrating to me because I bought Fiora, LeBlanc, and Katarina (and all their skins) because they look cool and filled roles I need to learn. Why doesn't Riot take action to tone some of these down to promote more ban diversity so we can play champs we paid for? I'm told that my experience of dying instantly when a Katarina or Zed is on the screen is normal, so can anyone explain why Tormented Soil gets nerfed while 1-shot-wonders are effectively unplayable in draft but still being sold?

Riot will get to them eventually. Also, as you move up in rank, people ban assassins a bit less often, I think. Also, it is inherent in the system to have good champions and bad ones, and people ban the best ones so they don't have to play against them.

STRATEGY

  1. How do you know when to start roaming during laning?

If all else fails, start when your opponent does. I've heard that it should be when one of the towers goes down.

  1. How do you know when to chase instead of falling back and pushing objectives?

The more vision you have of where they are headed and the more mobility you have, the better it is to chase. If they could be baiting you, you may want to back off, and the same goes for champions who have more mobility and/or cc than you.

  1. When should I be joining teamfights instead of staying in lane to farm or guard towers? My instinct is to join when I see 4 v 4 or 5 v 4, but when I'm top lane, my teammates often tell me to just stay up there and push/farm.

If your team can hold 4v5, splitpushing is a good idea, as it creates more pressure. If they need the help, help. In general, if you are a mid or ADC, you need to be there for teamfights for the damage output, but if you are a bruiser you can splitpush more. A high-cc, low damage initiator tank, though, needs to be there to start the teamfights. It depends a lot on your role.

CHAMP-SPECIFIC QUESTIONS

  1. I love playing Irelia, but I have no clue how to not get rekt by everything from levels 1-5.

Go Q->W->E then max W if ahead and E if behind. (Then max the other one.) Rush trinity force and save your E for when they have more health than you or when the slow will guarantee a kill. Try to farm until level 3 or 4.

  1. I love Syndra but have very mixed success with her in mid. I'm told that she is "off-meta" right now because assassins are dominating midlane. Hugging turret does nothing for me when Master Yi jumps out of jungle or Zed is lane opponent. All of her guides talk about how powerful she is without addressing my problems of perma-oom and being killed on sight.

I don't play mages much, but I would say try not to spam skills too much and buy a mana regen item. Also, assassins are countered by tanks, which are also popular. Hold out for the teamfight phase and let the tanks lock them down.

BUILDING

  1. Dying is bad, but I'm told that building defensive items is also bad. Using my example above where I'm killed on sight by a teleporting/invulnerable target I can't even attack, it makes sense to me to build a Ninja Tabi instead of Sorc Shoes. Or when I need mana and CDR to build the Frozen Heart. But what I hear over and over again is "build a Zohnya's and never build anything else with armor." Why, though?

On a midlaner, you typically prioritize damage, with some mana regen, cdr, and maybe Zhonya's Hourglass or Abyssal Scepter. Typically, when you are behind (in any role), you should build the most important items (on a mid, that would be damage), play safe, and wait for the teamfight phase. A midlaner's best defense is positioning well, instead of sacrificing burst potential to build defense. Let your tank do the tanking.

  1. Some item builds seem really good to me, but I NEVER see anyone use them. For example, building both a Lich Bane and a Iceborn Gauntlet end game on Sona. Or building both an Archangel's Staff and a Manamune on a squishy, mana-hungry champ like Syndra. On paper, it looks to me like infinite skill spam, a massive shield, and a team-fight burst toggle. The question is this: If nobody is using it, should I assume it's terrible and not even try it out?

Lich Bane and Iceborn Gauntlet don't stack their buffs, and Manamune provides AD instead of AP (Syndra needs AP) and it is unlikely that you will fully stack both. On paper it seems good, but other options are better. However, there are certainly unconventional builds that are in fact strong. (Personally, I like taking challenging smite on Irelia top). Experiment, but learn why people do what they do first.

  1. On support champs, I've done far better building Talisman of Ascension over Frost Queen because of the movement speed and on-use. Frost Queen is recommended on Sona, Karma, and Nami, but I do worse with it. Should I use what works or what I'm "supposed to" use?

What works is, by definition, what you're supposed to use.

  1. Of all the champs I've played, CDR and mana feel like the highest priorities to build. I've learned to not use spells on minions unless it means 3-6 last-hits and to poke conservatively. But when my opponent goes all-in on me, I'm oom after the fight and have to B regardless of whether I win. Yet advice and guides almost never prioritize mana sustain during laning, and I'm frowned upon for using Clarity. I can't figure out how to make this work. As a result, I've done far better playing support or poke champs (Sona, Morg, Cassio) and struggle badly playing mage against assassin. Advice?

Its fine if you have to recall after an all-in. A mana sustain item and some mana potions are usually enough if you can avoid spamming too many spells.

  1. I like building Archangel Staff, Rod of Ages, or Liandry's because I can feel a difference in my survivability with the extra hp/shield. These items seem to be viewed as sub-par AP items that have their niches, not as defensive items with strong offense. Instead of building straight AP items and then building a strong defense item at the end, why not build balanced items throughout the game? In other words, if being a glass cannon means dying more, should a newer player build AP items with survival attributes to avoid feeding while still contributing to the team?

Rod of Ages and Archangel's Staff are very good picks. Rylai's and Liandry's are best on an "old school mage" like Brand, Lissandra, or Cassiopeia, or a tanky AP champion like Swain, Rumble, or AP Cho'gath.