Four biscuits or three biscuits plus mana pot?

Paper1·Jan 19, 2015·2 votes·1,904 views

This is something that has been bothering me for a while now. I main support and in almost every game I start with at least one mana pot, and yet most of the supports I see (Diamond 5-3)have four biscuits. To those supports I ask ... Why? In my opinion, you don't need more than three biscuits. It gives enough sustain, plus you can get a mana pot which allows you to cast more spells between backs. I wish I could come up with better in depth reasoning, but thats what my thought process is. What do you guys think?

21 Comments

TriggiesJan 19, 20155 votes

Just get the biscuits. I hear they're on sale at your local KFC or Popeyes c:

StealWolverineJan 19, 20154 votes

Be a man. Go 1 biscuit 3 mana pots.

Might need some sustain built in your kit to pull it off though.

XonraJan 19, 20154 votes

If you have self sustain like a nami or a sona, biscuits aren't really needed so you can go mana pots or mana pots and a ward

With someone more tanky like a Braum then you can go all biscuits or biscuit and ward because you won't really run out of mana

With a more pokey someone like a Morg or Lulu I actually like to start two mana pots and 2 biscuits so you are able to stay a bit more sustained, but you also have your shield on both if you really need it, plus you are able to be more aggressive with the 2 mana pots.

It really depends on you more than saying do this every time because it won't work as well every game but good to have a starting point. Starting with a ward really depends on how much you trust your adc as them using their trinket will give you that extra ward anyways and you can just as easily back and get your ruby crystal and a ward or two then sigh stone on the next. This is my preference as I see no reason to not get sight stone first as a completed item as it really helps early with vision compared to waiting a while to get it and having to buy individual wards.

Paper1Jan 20, 20151 votes

I agree with most of it. I guess I should have included the two biscuits two mana pot start in the beginning. Imo, I don't really like the all mana pot start, since I prefer to have the biscuit not only for sustain, but also that I immediately restores some hp and mana when used.

I play nami a lot and generally I've been going with either 2/2 or 3/1 (hp pot/mana pot). You could probably do some math and figure out which setup allows for more poke e.g. With W. I think a lot of the decision comes from where you place the threshold on how many biscuits you actually need between the start of the game and first back. What I mean by that is if you start with four biscuits and find when you back you have one left in most games, then its probably worth going for three and testing it again.

Concerning the sightstone, it depends on how I feel the lane is going. If I'm winning the lane, I feel that upgrading the gold regen item is better to push my advantage, even if I can't buy a ward afterwards because I still have the trinket to give me some protection against ganks. In some of my games it does take a while to get sightstone if I do choose the previous option, but buying individual wards doesn't bother me that much. On average, I'd buy probably 225 g worth of wards during that time, and I could probably regain that over the mid game.

XonraJan 20, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I agree with most of it. I guess I should have included the two biscuits two mana pot start in the beginning. Imo, I don't really like the all mana pot start, since I prefer to have the biscuit not only for sustain, but also that I immediately restores some hp and mana when used.

I play nami a lot and generally I've been going with either 2/2 or 3/1 (hp pot/mana pot). You could probably do some math and figure out which setup allows for more poke e.g. With W. I think a lot of the decision comes from where you place the threshold on how many biscuits you actually need between the start of the game and first back. What I mean by that is if you start with four biscuits and find when you back you have one left in most games, then its probably worth going for three and testing it again.

Concerning the sightstone, it depends on how I feel the lane is going. If I'm winning the lane, I feel that upgrading the gold regen item is better to push my advantage, even if I can't buy a ward afterwards because I still have the trinket to give me some protection against ganks. In some of my games it does take a while to get sightstone if I do choose the previous option, but buying individual wards doesn't bother me that much. On average, I'd buy probably 225 g worth of wards during that time, and I could probably regain that over the mid game.

Yeah even as Nami I still stick with 2/2. Sona is literally the only one I got all mana pots strictly because of her sustain as the biscuit doesn't help as much there and with the all mana start you can sustain and poke much more. Saying that, Sona is probably the only one I have done that with even including Nami in there initially, so I can see where you are coming from there for sure.

I also agree with your last point as I might go boots (only only only if I'm feeling confident enough to roam and help mid or helping my jungler counter jungle if on blue side) or my second tier of my gold item and wards first back if the lane is going really well and I'm feeling confident on the first back so no arguments there.

Fae SorceressJan 19, 20153 votes

I personally use 3 Biscuits and a Mana potions since I play Lulu , but I can see cases where you would be better off with 4 Biscuits instead.

Factors include:

Your Champion (Mana heavy poke like Lulu? Or perhaps intimidating burst/reactive support?)
Opponents Champions (Will you be poked down a lot without a chance to retaliate or trade favorably?)
Playstyle (Will you be playing passively/reactively or actively and trying to make plays?)
Mana Management (How confident are you in your ability to manage your mana vs HP?)

Then again, I'm only Plat and you're Diamond, so what do I know.

Paper1Jan 19, 20151 votes

This is helpful. With the way i play I tend to play passively and wait for mistakes. Most of the time I play thresh, so in that case I usually just go three biscuits anyway, since my mindset is to stay out of poke range. However, I guess four biscuits would be better in the case where I do need to make multiple plays between backs in order to stay relevant in lane.

sealustJan 19, 20153 votes

two pots/biscuits and a ward; a rounded meal.

Paper1Jan 19, 20151 votes

I suppose with the way I play I could make that work. The issue I have with that ward is that most of the time the opposing jungler doesn't gank bot lane that early, and even if he does, i can still use my trinket.

Drunk RummateJan 19, 20153 votes

depends on your champion. pokey mage like zyra or velkoz you may want the mana pot. front liner like braum or leona you definitely go for all biscuits.

i generally take 4 biscuits even on pokey champs though because i like to try and soak up extra damage for my ADC during trades and heal it off since they only get a single potion to work with.

OxycutJan 19, 20152 votes

Playing as Leona, I feel 4 biscuits might be overkill. I typically get an assist before first back and will have at least 1 biscuit left over sitting on about 850g. I also agree that buying a ward prior to first back is not useful with the way jungle ramp up has been slowed. To answer your question, if you play aggressive, it might be best to go 3 biscuits and 1 mana pot to maximize effectiveness.

M0b1usJan 20, 20152 votes

I always get 2 pots + ward. The early vision is just too valuable. To combat the lack of pots, I actually invest pretty heavily into defenses even when playing supports like Janna or Vel. I never get mana pots on my supports simply because I don't need them. Proper mana management will take care of any mana problems early on. So if I am playing Janna, I won't use my Q to poke, but rather use my autos. My extra investment into bulk will allow me to do this without terrible risk of retaliation and it saves mana so I have all options open if something goes wrong.

If you have trouble staying in lane as support, get more health pots. If you have trouble sustaining mana, go ahead and get a mana pot. If you know how to support and not have these issues, get a ward.

Paper1Jan 20, 20151 votes

The early vision is not valuable to me given the current jungle route and I still have trinket as backup. I think whether you buy a mana pot or not is very relevant in mana management. There is always the chance that the enemy makes a play at a time you haven't predicted or makes several plays at once. In those instances, what can you do if they have more mana than you because they bought a pot, and you don't because you were forced to use your spells? It means that you opted for a ward and given a mana advantage to your enemy, and that's not good. For example, say they went for an early play on dragon or early plays on you. You use your ward on tribush or dragon most likely, but then that becomes inefficient vision because you might not have the mana to keep control of the area you warded. At that point it doesn't matter if you are bulky since you don't have the mana cost to use your spells, and if you go in to auto with no mana they can retaliate and probably win the 2v2 trade/fight.

M0b1usJan 20, 20152 votes

Vision is always incredibly valuable. At level 1, your trinket only last 60 seconds. The early ward allows you to play a more aggressive lane without worrying if the jungle is coming to gank.

If they have to use a mana pot and I don't, I have already won the lane. They have wasted potential gold for vision for harass that I have negated with my mana. Proper mana management will always beat out mana pots in the supports case.

You assume that everyone always uses all their mana to poke. This is what all the newer support players do. Watch the more experienced players. They almost never get mana pots because they know how to properly manage their mana pools. They poke 90% of the time with auto attacks and use spells when they need to instead of whenever they can.

Proper mana management will always be the best option. It opens up a lot more options for you and is much better overall for your lane.

Paper1Jan 20, 20151 votes

First paragraph) yes vision is incredibly valuable, but not when you know that their red side jungle for instance is preoccupied taking their buffs for the fist 2-3 minutes of the game. Between you and your adc, you have two yellow trinkets. That's two minutes worth of vision that collectively you can work with, and Imo that is enough to protect you until the first back.

What is your definition of "proper mana management"? As far as I'm concerned, it involves taking into account anything to do with mana I.e mana regen items, mana cost on spells e.t.c. And how and when I use it. That includes mana pots.

I disagree entirely with your conclusions in your second paragraph. There are a lot of factors that you haven't taken into account. if you have twenty five percent health and no mana, and they have a support with 75 percent health and no mana, but then they use a mana pot, then who is "winning" that 1v1? I don't like to use winning really, but we could probably agree that in that instance the enemy support has dominance over that lane.

What do you mean by "negated with my mana"? It depends on the matchup. In some match ups, janna shield can be broken with ease plus additional damage, for example zyra, so overall I don't really know what your point is with paragraph two.

Third paragraph) No. What I was trying to say with my original example is that there are situations where you will need to use mana (for whatever reason that may be) when you don't expect to or ideally wouldn't want to, and because you don't take a mana pot, you can be put at an unnecessary disadvantage. I was trying to justify this by saying that the ward you bought instead would be suboptimal because it provides vision in a place where you cannot contest if you see the enemy e.g. Start dragon, invade through tribush, since you have less mana than would be required.

I cannot confirm or deny statistics about " experienced players " and to be honest neither can you. I think I could find somewhere a pro ( if that counts as experienced) guide that has a starting build that includes one mana pot.

DrukyulJan 19, 20151 votes

2 biscuits and a ward

TheKingDodoJan 19, 20151 votes

depends on champ

Duke AnaxJan 19, 20151 votes

Personally I go item 2043 item 2004 .

The pink ward has indefinite lifetime, so it is justified getting one early, just in case. It will likely be there for the first gank, no matter how long (or short) that will be.

alternatively starting item 2041 and going with item 2043 item 2004

But im unranked, so what do I know.

Paper1Jan 20, 20151 votes

I can see where you are coming from. the pink ward strategy is an interesting one. assuming blue side start, you could place it before the enemy even sees you in several different spots. It is also good situationally against stealth jugglers. The best and easiest places to ward are either in tribush or the bush behind dragon. The downsides ofc are if the pink is found, then that's 100g down the drain and you don't have any health pots for sustain. Also if you opt for flask then you probably end up having too much mana, and you also lose out on the gold regen items.

Duke AnaxJan 20, 20151 votes

Green ward is 75 down the drain when it's not found. and even when pink is destroyed it still did it's job warning you.

I forgot to say I only play sustain supports, so I really need the mana pot more than the health.

Paper1Jan 20, 20151 votes

I disagree. If your wards grant vision of someone and it's not cleared, then that's exactly what you want. I don't think you meant that though. I think you are saying that if green ward is placed and no one comes within vision of it, then that's 75 gold down the drain. My response is that I would rather do this and be confident to play further up my lane. That way, the bot lane can push in and deny cs as to make up for the 75 gold and more.

Even with sustain supports, I think you are better off taking at least two health pots. I don't know the figures for healing spells on all of those champions, but my guess is that using a pot to heal yourself is better most of the time. Take nami for instance. Her w at early levels will not heal as much, plus you are using mana for that spell. therefore imo, I should go two biscuits two mana pots because I have biscuits for myself and have the extra mana to continuously use my w on my adc and the enemy.

I guess what I'm trying to say with the vision ward is that since it's only destroyed when found (or another is placed), you have the potential to keep it in play for more than three minutes. I want to be able to maximise that potential by placing it in an unpredictable spot such as the bush behind wolves on red side. Thats quite difficult early game without getting caught/being put into a disadvantage elsewhere.