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Brand new player (Lvl10) needing help from Karma players.

Eljin·11/21/2014, 9:15:57 AM·4 votes·3,407 views

Hello folks, I've been playing LoL for a week now and would like some help with Karma if people would be willing. Top lane Karma I've been having some success as, I focus mainly with an IBG based build, and try to simply control in team fights, help allies, and do a little damage. Bot lane Karma I've been struggling with, winning about 1 in every 3 matches with her. I understand the poke she has, but I'm simply either being out-sustained by other supports like Sona/Soraka, or I'm being totally bullied out by champions like Leona. In bot lane, I tend to get a sightstone as an early purchase so I can get vision going, and haven't really had any ganking issues, and the blue cup for some mana sustain help. I usually build Athenes, Sightstone, variable support item, Sorc Shoes, Frostfang as bot lane karma. I try not to get stuck into certain preset builds though and tailor what I'm fighting, and buy based on what I can read from enemy items via tab (like the mpen mask for 1400ishg if I see them getting some MR). I will take ANY bot lane Karma tips you can give me: Combos, advanced combos, buy orders, personal match-up advice vs certain ADCs/Supports, teamfighting goals/situations to look for, whatever. I really enjoy the champion, but she's easily my least successful champion I own currently.

18 Comments

RiotPhreak11/23/2014, 9:06:49 AM12 votes

Let's talk about lane dynamics first:

You have more range than the sustain supports. You can Q or RQ Soraka/Sona out of range of them doing anything to you. This is more mana efficient than their sustain tools and you gain money from Spellthief's. If they ever try to all-in you, then Karma's pretty good at dealing with it with your W root. It's a cold war type dynamic where if they step up, you can punish, but you can't just "choose" to win by saying "go." Now, if they're better at fighting you through skill or misplays, then they get to close the range, win the 2v2, and you have to be able to deal with that.

Against engage supports like Thresh/Leona, you have to respect the all-in. Again, you can't just "choose" to win the lane. You have to outplay. Once again you have the range advantage. But you can't let them catch you. If Leona gets in, make her take minion damage while you aren't. Don't let Thresh hook you. Poke them every time they try, and make them fail the engage. That's how you win that lane. But if you choose to stat an all-out brawl against a champion that WANTS to brawl you, you deserve to lose.

Let's talk about items.

Coin is literally the worst starting item for laning power. It has great upgrades and it's great if you're all going to be passive, but it has ZERO combat effectiveness. Spellthief's, as you've been buying, gives you a lot of combat power, so that's cool. I would also never start Flask. You want Spellthief's +2-3 HP +1-2 MP potion every time. Never open with a ward outside your trinket. Again, you need the combat effectiveness.

Supports don't typically get to afford multiple damage items, so looking for multipliers like Void Staff or Deathcap is often unrealistic. 1 out of 10 or 15 games you can afford them, but never consider them "core." Instead, if you want to increase damage, have a few key items in mind: Mejai's Soulstealer and Liandry's Torment are the best "fire and forget" damage items. Liandry's expensive, certainly, but its Unique Passive is exceptional when it's your only damage item.

For item countering, a quick thing to think about: Flat Penetration is only good vs. LOW levels of Armor/MR. % Pen is good vs. high levels of resists. The flat pen bit is a little unintuitive, but true.

Now, about playing with teammates, sometimes you just don't get a style that matches. The most important thing in a 2v2 is playing like 2 players together. Try to find a way to play in unison. If that means you never get to initiate an all-in, then unfortunately that's the case. For myself, I always feel pretty satisfied when I can constantly trigger the gold generation from Spellthief/Frostfang, even if the all-in never happens. Just being able to poke out the opponents and build a gold/cs lead is still a lane win. The worst thing you can do is try to initiate a fight with an unwilling partner and just start a 1v2 to get pushed out of lane.

kitcat30011/23/2014, 4:58:29 PM2 votes

Ability use How to use your spells and your mantra effectively is Karma's defining requirement. When in lane as support I usually like to level my Q first while poking at the same time with mantra. However, Instead of maxing it, I start leveling my shield instead at these scenarios:

The laning phase is over and team fights are more common
The enemy begins to out sustain my damage because of life-steal, or a healer support.

At this point in fights, protecting your team is more important. You can still poke, BUT SAVE YOUR MANTRA for your shield in fights. Only use your empowered Q on a single target. After maxing your shield, I usually start ranking up W instead of going back to Q.

Items When in lane, the items I usually get first are as follows. item 3098 item 1001 item 2049

item 3190 I consider the locket to be a core item on support Karma. The shield it grants stacks with yours, equating to a substantial amount of blocked damage. (If the enemy is all AD, it's still a good pick, other options just might be better before it)

item 3504 Ardent Censer Gives a little every stat she needs: AP, mana regen, CD, and movement speed. However its defining feature on Karma is the ability to give free attack speed to your entire team through your empowered shield. It is a situational pick though, so only take if at least 2-3 members of your team can use it effectively.

Karma Caitlyn Vayne Fiora Lissandra - YES

Karma Ezreal LeeSin Lissandra Annie - NO

Jixx11/21/2014, 6:04:29 PM2 votes

Hey there! Support main here;w;

First thing to note is you can always add me in-game if you require more help after this. Second thing to note is...

Mage karma is where all the damage is at and will keep your enemy's held back in fear for their lives. Support Karma is lacking in the damage department of Mage Karma, so she does require a little bit of help from your neighbor ADC.

One thing that I find that works super well only on Karma (As supports go) is starting flask on her. Don't be afraid to use your ultimate to enhance your Q for poking. I find that a decent combo is shielding yourself for the boost, ulting and then using Q on the enemy ADC or support(Depends on who you've deemed the top priority for harass)

As Karma you want to keep a solid line through the lane, I usually like mine just in-front of my melee minions, if not behind their melee minions. Just imagine a thin red line through the lane and if a enemy gets past that, Root them, ult-Q them and shield away any harass you might take, even better if your ADC aids in that. You really want to keep the enemy on a leash/behind that line, keep bush control of their side and of the river(Incase of ganks) and don't be afraid to bait out or take some damage, you want to make the enemy ADC unable to farm, poke and the enemy support to use so much mana or CDs that he/she can't aid 100%.

I like hybrid pen reds, armor seals, MR glyphs, and AP quints on Karma. Build a sightstone first along with a frost queens claim, mikaels and frozen heart for uber team fighting.

Enemy Articuno11/21/2014, 1:02:59 PM2 votes

Take this with a grain of salt as supports don't always have the gold to get these items early enough to make laning easier (since you are going to want at least second tier support item, boots, and sightstone), but

-Consider Haunting Guise/Liandry's versus hp stacking supports like Leona. Awesome synergy with RQ and even better if the enemy team has other hp stackers like RoA mages or tanks. -Consider Morellonomicon versus sustain supports like Sona or Soraka. Bonus points if the enemy team has sustain laners like Mundo or Swain. Extra bonus points because it's a cheap item for the stats and cdr it gives.

Karma is my go to support although I'm not exactly amazing on her. I like to play extremely aggressive and try to take early-game dominance as early as level 1 or 2. That will dictate the lane and make the enemy adc lose cs and have their support fear you. Try not to miss your first RQ as its early cd is long as heck. I like maxing Q followed by E but W is viable if you are somehow cleaning up the kills accidentally and have a bit of gold to work with. RW makes for easy heal baits. RQ should be done when you know you can land it and not just accidentally steal cs from your adc. Q without mantra every so often and even be aggressive with your W when you know you can 2v2 just fine. Shield yourself as a boost to keep them in W range or land Qs but be wary of them damaging your adc. Sometimes you may just want to save your shield for your adc. Don't be afraid to swap sorc boots for mobis or merc treads given the situation. Don't go for athenes if you're going to buy crucible for your adc that game. Don't be afraid to buy ap if you are fed or stomping lane (I prefer deathcap over iceborn but there's different taste in itemization and that option is perfectly fine for top lane). Buy a locket if your team doesn't already have one and you are versus a fed ap or a general heavy ap comp. Not much more I can say other than mid Karma is fun too and I've had some success versus most LeBlanc's I've faced (even before the silence nerfs). Keep the frostfang line on Karma and maybe upgrade it if you have enough gold at some point and don't need other items asap.

PeachsProperty11/21/2014, 9:38:13 AM2 votes

-if ur supporting as a bot lane i'd sugest starting with the coin so u get a gold income while ur carry farms minions.

-i'd suggest an ardent (4get last aprt of name) when u shield ally they gain increased attack speed(which is good on ad champs and in a teamfight ur mantra shield gives the atk speed to all of them it shields)

when you hit lvl 30 and can afford runes it'll help alot(as u can get mroe regen if u need it)

havent used mage since patch but i know mikails gives you 100%mana regen(plus a 10%heal/CC removal use) it would work on her.

Water Breathing11/21/2014, 9:36:40 PM2 votes

I play Karma on and off in bot, mid, and sometimes top, but I mainly play her in bot lane so I cn help you there:

Get spellthief, 3 health biscuits, and one mana potion (biscuits and the extra potion comes with putting points into the utility mastery tree, you might not have access to this just yet). 85% of the time I would not start a with a ward. The reason behind this is it will force you back to base after one engage or a bad trade. Having a potion advantage is huge because it allows you to stay in lane and get health advantage over the enemy. Sometimes I get a ward if the other team has a good level 2-3 gank jungler (like lee sin or even kha) but this is much less likely to happen now with the preseason jungle being a lot harder to clear. As Karma you should be aggressive early on because Karma has one of the best early games in league, so you need to take advantage of it. Poke as much as you can, but don't go out of position (ie. facetank enemy minions) just to land a Q. Also, remember that her Auto Attacks lower the cooldown of Mantra (R) if you use it on champions. If you see the ther ADC going for a last hit on a minion, that is a good chance to land an AA or two, provided it isn't risky. You should especially do this against melee supports like Taric, Braum, Leona, etc. Sona is a really bad/hard matchup for Karma because she can poke just as well as Karma but has sustain. Here I would just try to push to level 2 faster and then go hard on her. with R, Q, and W, Karma's level 2 is pretty good and Level 1-2 Sona doesn't have any CC at all so you should be safe if you're at decent health. Soraka is kinda difficult too, but the key here is not to target her lane partner so much but instead try to poke down soraka herself because her heal actually costs her health. Use the movespeed boost on E to dodge her starcall because it is the only way she can continue healing herself. Leona isn't too bad for Karma - but you want to do the opposite in this match up and not target Leona but instead target the ADC instead. Leona can't jump on you or your ADC if her own ADC is low health because then you can just pop the ADC and Leona isn't that much of a threat on her own. If she engages (look for when she puts up her W eclipse ability, it usually means she will jump on you) your best bet is to shield and use W to disengage.

For Skill order, I take Q first, W second if I get level 2 first, if not, I level up E. If you think you're getting ganked soon, pick up whatever you didn't take at level 2 at for level 3, otherwise put another point into Q and wait for whatever you don't have at level 4. I max Q first, then E, then W (when supporting)

For build I generally upgrade to Frostfang first, buy a ward and a few potions. Next back I get sightstone and tier 1 boots, but above all, it's important that you swap out your yellow trinket for a red one once you get sightstone. I probably get chalice after that and then work to Frost Queen's claim or tier 2 boots. The next is situational. Don't upgrade to ruby sightstone immediately. Buy oracle's lens (upgraded red trinket) when you have the spare gold. Try to always have a pink on the map, especially if you are winning. ALWAYS have one on hand when up against Twitch Talon Akali Shaco Vayne and to a lesser extent, MonkeyKing Leblanc .

If you're ahead: item 3136 item 3020 item 3157 item 3023 item 3041 item 3151 item 3174 (I generally dislike picking up athene's, there is almost always some useful CC to get rid of on the enemy team.)

If the other team has a lot of magic damage / Crowd Control: item 3105 item 3222 item 3102 item 3190

Have a lot of AD on your team? Do you have Aatrox Fiora Tryndamere Vayne Kayle on your team? (and other champions that like Attack Speed?): item 3050 item 3504

Ardent Censor is good on Karma, but only if you team can take advantage of it. If you have like Vlad/Rumble top, Lux Mid, Sion Jungle, and Ezreal ADC, Ardent Censer probably isn't a good pickup.

COBRA C0MM4NDER11/21/2014, 5:56:30 PM2 votes

I bought karma one day, and my advice...

R-Q should be played for the slow, not the damage...that's merely the bonus. for runes, try getting a lot of +pen. magic or attk, your choice. having both is good.

And Ardent Censor, that is a must. helps you your party if you use R-E immensely.

another thing to consider is movement speed to be able to get outta trouble.

You could just go all out Attk dmg and attk speed,

the wonderful thing with Karma is she is very versatile.

Terra Booma11/21/2014, 5:25:38 PM2 votes

Remember your R-W combo, even if your down in bot that's a huge heal if both ticks go off, you can easily bait some tower dives with it, and your Ult-E is a VERY good engage/disengage tool.

Keep in mind R-Q is not your best option all the time, in fact it's one of her weakest possibilities

Hyrum Graff11/24/2014, 9:20:29 PM1 votes

Another Karma main here (~170 ranked games on karma this season). I also play her top, mid, and support (and occasionally jungle).

In all lanes, you should think about your ult's cd like a 3rd resource besides hp and mana. Because damaging an opponent reduces your ult cd, you should always be looking for opportunities to sneak in an AA on the opponent. You should also think about your ult cd when casting your spells. For example, W damages your opponent 4 times -- that's 8 seconds off your ult CD. So if you ult is up, and you decide you want to r-q, you should use your rq before you cast your w (unless you're going for the kill, in which case you want to use your w's root to hold them in place for the 2nd part of rq's explosion). Q's explosion radius means that you can aim it at minions nearby an enemy sitting in their minion wave, and still hit them. This is really useful, because it's often hard to hit your opponents, but hitting minions near them is much more reliable.

As top or mid, you should almost always start Doran's Ring. It gives you mana regen, AP, and some HP, which makes it harder for the enemy laner to all-in you. Karma shouldn't need flask, because her q is long range enough that you should be able to cs/harass without taking much harass in return. On of karma's solo lane advantages is that she can push waves really fast early. Don't be afraid to r-q to help clear caster minions (although this will be a little slower since you're just lvl 10 and don't have 21 offense masteries, or lvl 3 runes, yet).

For support, your playstyle really changes based on the matchup, and your lane partner. Regardless of the lane, though, you should be trying to distract the enemy adc and make him/her miss as many cs as possible, while zoning the enemy supp/adc off of your adc, so yours can cs safely.

All-in supports (thresh, leo, etc) don't usually have a good way to sustain their adc, besides relic shield (but they're tanky and have more pots), so your objective should be to poke their adc low enough that you will be able to kill them in an engage, without getting engaged on before that point. If you do get engaged on, shield whoever got hooked, root the support, and toss your q at the adc, for the damage and the slow. Although your primary goal is to poke the adc, often all-in supports will try to engage on you, which, if you can avoid the engage, puts them in a position where they'll usually take a lot of harass. You and your adc need to punish them for this! If blitz misses his hook, you've got a couple seconds to aa and q him without worrying about the hook!
Sustain supports vary by the support. Generally you have two options:
- Try to burst them down, as they are usually very squishy.
  - You probably won't be able to do this unless you get a gank, or they get out of position so you can land a w on them.
- Try to poke them down faster than they can heal. This almost always means making sure you land ALL of your q's, because if you do land them ALL, you can run them oom before they run you oom. Most of the time, it also means focusing your damage on one person.
  - Sona is wasting half her w if either her, or her adc, are at full hp.
  - If you can dodge soraka's q's, you can poke her down (but don't bother trying to poke down her adc)
  - If you can bait janna's shields, you can hit her or her adc while the shield is on cd.
  - If you focus poke on Nami's adc, she'll run oom really quickly, trying to keep her adc healthy. But if you poke nami, she'll just trade with you until she's back to full (unless you can engage on her at one of those times).

However, most of these are only applicable if your adc is also on board with the poke game. If you adc just wants to farm, your objective changes to: avoid harass/poke and all-ins while farming your spelltheif's edge. Asking your adc what type of lane they want early, is a good thing.

In lane, coin is ONLY better good for sustain.

Character limit OP; If you want to add me in game, I'd be happy to play with you and give you tips :)

Eljin11/21/2014, 9:00:09 PM1 votes

Thank you for the tips folks, some good stuff to go through. Something that keeps being brought up is " I like to play extremely aggressive and try to take early-game dominance as early as level 1 or 2. That will dictate the lane and make the enemy adc lose cs and have their support fear you." like Jixx said, but how exactly does one go about bullying a lane other than RQ and AA's? Because right now I'm finding that even if I land a RQ and an AA or two, they don't budge. Leona can just hop on me and I lose that trade, Soraka tosses out a heal and they are back to normal and I've lost health in the trade, or Sona just...does everything, while blowing me up with whatever weirdness is that she does.

I'm not trying to play the blame game either, but I seem to be having issues coordinating with ADCs as well. One of my last games I had a Graves that only wanted to farm CS. He'd never actually go after the enemies, and I had no clue how to play against the enemy lane with an ADC that passive. Is there something I can say that can help me get them to throw some poke onto the enemy as I try to apply pressure, without coming off as insulting as I find people are MEGA defensive if you even ask for something super politely.

Is the coin a better option than frost queen in bot lane? It seemed like Karma's playstyle just supported the dagger playstyle much more. Obviously not saying you are wrong, just wondering what I'm not seeing. Is the passive gold gain from ADC CS just that superior to what you are getting from the dagger?

Starting flask is an idea I need to do more. I usually do that top lane, but have been going frost queen bot lane since I'm not earning gold from creeps. Thanks for the other item ideas as well. League really taught me zero about items, and how to properly counter-buy enemies, so I'm having to do a lot of outside reading to try to get ideas. The tips with Morel and Guise are good ones and I'll put them to use with Leona being F2P this week, Articuno.

The team fight tips are helpful, thanks guys. I will try to use my ulti-shield more in team fights. Question though: How do you survive versus dashing assassins as Karma? With Akali having just been F2P, I found the majority of my deaths were because of her and simply not being able to peel her off me, and even dropping a pink ward to disable her invis circle just meant she died after killing 1-2 of us. I'm finding I don't die too horribly much except when those types jump on me and eradicate me before I can do anything, and Hourglass just delays it for a second or two. Roots and speed buffs haven't really helped me versus champs that can just repeatedly hop on top of me.

Eljin11/22/2014, 2:51:39 AM1 votes

Thanks all, upvotes to you all. I'll try to put some of this into effect in my upcoming games and hopefully see some growth.

ClueClown11/22/2014, 10:09:16 AM1 votes

If you have raka on the enemy team get your adc to focus them. You can just use your shield on the adc, ult/q the raka, then use your chain while she's slowed. Then all you have to do is poke an adc with no self sustain aside from lifesteal.

Eljin11/23/2014, 9:17:27 PM1 votes

Ok, wow. Ton of new, helpful information here.

Thanks to the thread I realized I was laning incorrectly, simply because I didn't quite understand the champions well enough yet. The target priority you guys were talking about makes a lot more sense, and I think a lot of that was me just not knowing all the champions and exactly what they can do. I went up against a Leona in a game yesterday and did so much better than previous outings.

About the coin, I've never bought the coin on Karma. It was brought up by other posters, but thanks for the clarification on it.

Assassins: the tips seem really helpful in theory, but I simply don't live long enough to get a chance to do any of that. I've had Akali kill me before my smartcast-self-shield button could go off. Champs like her that can just jump on me and explode me, I understand to try to root/slow/peel/avoid and not just facetank, but my Karma just can't handle them. Maybe it's that runes are crap until level 20, or I have a third of the masteries most people play with, or that I'm new, or that I built poorly, or all of it together. I get blown the hell up, even when I build some defensive items.

Phreak, that's true about playing to your teammates strengths, but any other tips on playing with someone who is directly opposite of your playstyle? A lot of people have mentioned play back for jungle ganks, but I'm still in that bracket that junglers are only in about half my matches (and dropping, because of new, tougher jungle and lvl 10 smite requirements on jungling items) so I've been in a lot of 2-1-2 laning games. When I do have a jungler it's a toss-up if I'm actually getting a ganker, or someone who just wants to farm stacks on that damn weapon enchantment.

Niirho, I actually like the idea of your tanky Karma as my best success with her so far has been top lane anti-range, where I usually go IBG first. I'll look over your build and orders a bit more indepth, but I'm guessing rod has to be first to start the stacking. What lane were you playing in Team Builder as her?

And thanks for all the item tips folks. That's been one of my largest hurdles in that League teaches you nothing about items, and even less about situational and counter buys. I mean, unless we really are supposed to rush thornmail on ADCs. (That's a joke. Even I know you don't do that.)

alaskaneagle11/24/2014, 8:18:09 PM1 votes

54367

I can't help you with karma.. sry. I'm commenting here for two reasons;

to let you know that is an Extremely hard champ to master so you might want to shelve her for a bit till you get good with multiple champs and your mechanics and timing are good. I had to do that with anvia for quite a while. despite my name I just didn't click with her right away.
so I can come back and read everything others post because I am also interested in getting better with karma but haven't had the time I'd need to do it.

good luck :-)