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Help With Expanding Roles

Mellori··3 votes·1,501 views

I didn't want to admit I needed help with this, but at this point I do. I'm a support main; I've been playing support since around level 10 when I first found out what supporting was, and that's been all I played at a serious level. But with the new season coming up, I want to expand into other roles so I'm not just a one trick pony when it comes to ranked.

Some things to know when helping me: I don't want to play jungle yet, at all. That's my last learning priority for after I've gotten comfortable with everything else. If you do see jungle champs on my champion list (I'll put this below) tell me what lane they go in if they don't jungle and how to play them in that lane. Also, I don't need to learn the whats, I need to learn the hows. I know I need certain amount of cs at certain times, I know I need to push lane on some occasions and not push others. But it's the hows and whens that I'm not so good with. I've listed below things I'm good with and things I know I need help on, if that helps anyone giving me tips.

(I'll add more to these lists if I can think of anything. Tired and kinda blank-minded as to what I can even do as of posting this. xD) The Good Stuff

  • Supporting has led to me having great map awareness. I usually always have at least a ward or two down if I'm in other lanes.

  • As well with playing support, I seem to do better with ranged, squishy mage champions. Not that those are all I want to play, though.

  • My aim with skill-shots isn't half bad. I can usually land a Nidalee spear to the right place, which I've been told is one of the harder ones to land.

The Not-So-Good Stuff

  • My CS score usually sucks unless I'm really crushing the lane or playing ADC. Even then it's iffy sometimes.

  • Sometimes in trying to get CS, I push too far and then don't know what to do. I think pushing too far is what I need to fix, here.

  • Melee champs make me nervous. I want to learn them, but even when I have escapes such as when playing Fizz or Katarina, I still feel like I'm trapped at a close range and can't leave if I need to.

  • Much like the previous point, in playing Support, laning alone has also made me nervous, especially playing Mid lane. Again I feel like I couldn't always escape if I needed to. At least playing ADC, I have someone else there to help me if I get stuck, which is obviously more comforting.

My Current Champion List: http://i.gyazo.com/7e5ed764e3f4144f5c79d2d09a697536.png

12 Comments

Vrashk6 votes

I'll try to organize this as best I can around what you've asked for. That said, if you're a bit more specific about which champions you're looking at it would also be easier to give you examples.

Also, this is going to be a long read. A very, very long read, as I tried to be comprehensive. If it's too much information please let me know, and I'll compose something a bit more palatable. And much, much shorter. Because yikes, this is kind of huge and somewhat technical. Big thing to know, you don't have to know everything on this page, I just tried to cover all my bases. I'm more than happy to add you in-game and give a spark notes version, too.

Great Map Awareness Having good map awareness is huge, and if you already have that portion down then you're in for a decent laning experience at least. Knowing where the enemy jungler will likely be because of your teammates is immeasurably helpful, and can let you be a little more aggressive than you otherwise would be.

Ranged Mages If you're already used to squishy mages, I'd recommend looking towards mid as a place to branch into first. Playing champions like Karma and Vel'Koz in bot lane is very similar to their mid laning tendencies, so taking champions you might have already practiced and using them in mid lane (In normals, of course) as a way to learn the dynamics of a new lane is an excellent idea if you're worried about laning. If you already know your champion then you aren't learning the intricacies of both a new champion and lane at the same time.

Skill-Shots This is honestly similar to the above point. The better you are with skill shots, the better you will be in most mid lanes. And if you're really itching to practice mid lane skill shots on a new champion, play Xerath when he's free. That will be a trial by fire, and most of the time you will be safe in lane if you keep good wave control. (More on wave control later.)

CS This gets into a little bit more tricky territory, but understand that you aren't alone. My roommate did almost the same thing you did while leveling, and he's quite good at support because of it. On the other hand, supports have to cs the least in a game, so they get the least practice. I'm constantly giving him a hard time for his cs in a game. It's the curse of a support main.

That said, CS cannot be overstated. To put it bluntly, CS wins lanes more often than kills do. If you're looking to practice your last hitting, take someone with low ad, such as Nami, into a custom game and only last hit. Perfect cs for mid lane is right around 208, I believe. Go wild.

I understand that isn't very helpful (nor very fun for most people). To honestly get better at csing, watch the minion wave. See which minions your wave is attacking, how much damage the enemy wave is taking, how much damage your auto attacks/abilities do to the wave, and predict when certain minions are going to get low enough to last hit. That is, without a doubt, the easiest way to secure creeps. Timing the auto to last hit can be a bit tricky and differs from champion to champion, but knowing the hp you need to last hit at is the first step to better cs.

It takes practice, and once you get the knack for it, the only change is learning timing for different champions. With enough practice and understanding of how waves act, you can apply it to your supporting as well, prepping minion waves to make it easier for your adc to last hit. Side note: Please don't do that unless you know what your doing and your adc has demonstrated some form of competence. Some adcs aren't very appreciative of people "making their farm harder." When you know what you're doing it really is a huge benefit, I promise. My support is the reason I have high cs as an adc most games.

Pushing Too Far At the risk of telling you things you already know, I'm going to start at the very basics and work up with wave control here, because it can be a complicated concept and making it harder to understand is so very easy.

For ease of communication, the terminology I'm going to use is listed here. None of it is highly necessary for gameplay, it's just for ease of reference while I explain more:

Wave Crash: when a minion wave runs into a non-player controlled aspect of the game and engages in combat, such as the enemy minion wave or the enemy turret. * Pushing:* the direction the wave is moving towards over time. If, after thirty seconds, the wave crash has progressed towards the enemy turret, your wave is pushing. If the enemy wave is gradually moving closer to your turret, they are pushing. * Tanking the wave:* rather self-explanatory, it's when a champion takes damage from the minion wave for one purpose or another. * Freezing the lane:* when the opposing minion waves lose health equally, so that the next minion wave will crash in the same place in the wave. So if the minions were fighting just out of your turret's range in a frozen lane, the minions of the next wave will continue fighting in the exact same part of the lane, just outside your turret's range. * Resetting the lane:* when you cause the minion waves to crash in the dead center of the lane, the same way they did the very first time they spawned.

I should write a dictionary, that was an unfortunate number of definitions. Now for the meat of the section.

Starting at 1:52 in mid lane and 2:04 in both top and bot lane, minions will crash and begin fighting. From here, with no outside help, one of two things will happen.

  1. Your minions will deal slightly more damage to the enemy wave than the enemy wave deals to yours. In this situation, your wave will clear out the enemy's and begin pushing towards their turret.

2)Enemy minions will deal slightly more damage to your wave than yours deals to theirs. In this situation, their wave will clear out yours and begin pushing towards your turret.

One of these two things will happen eventually, if not immediately. This happens because when two minions focus on the same target they will wear that one down faster than that one will wear down its target.

The basics of wave control is understanding how damage from sources outside the wave affects the direction the wave will push. Say, for instance, a Nami bubble hits the enemy ranged minions. They take about 70 damage and don't attack your minions for a few seconds. That small action means that, slowly, your wave will push towards their turret. The damage difference is small so it will take a while, but the extra auto attacks and abilities that hit the minion wave during laning can contribute to pushing over the course of a lane.

The easiest way is to think of it as a scale. When the damage on one side is greater than the damage on the other, the side with greater damage will push harder. This is why, when you are auto attacking the wave and your opponent isn't able to reach the wave, you slowly push to their turret. Your autos contribute more damage to your side of the scale than the enemy wave can counteract.

This is where last hitting affects wave control. When you last hit you are minimizing your impact on the wave. Properly done, last hitting will very, very slowly push the wave, because you are still contributing damage to the scale. However, if your opponent is doing more than last hitting, say they auto the wave or use an ability, the wave will slowly push towards you.

Keeping track of the scale all the time isn't very easy or practical below maybe Diamond rank. It's best to just reevaluate which direction the wave will go every so often based on how many minions are on each side and how aggressive the enemy laner is in last hitting.

If the wave hits either turret, then it will be reset. The turret does an enormous amount of damage to the wave, and it's difficult to counteract that without causing a total reset yourself. A good rule of thumb is that hitting the enemy turret will cause the lane to push back towards your turret somewhat, and then the balance of damage resets.

Tanking a wave prevents the wave from hitting the turret, and is a sort of "artificial" freeze to the lane. You simply stand in front of an enemy wave of minions that would otherwise walk toward your turret and take the damage from the minions until your wave reaches the lane. This will keep the wave stuck in one position, and the closer that position is to your turret, the safer you are from engages.

When you've pushed the lane too far, you have a few options.

  1. You can push the wave to the turret and cause the it to reset partially. This isn't a fool-proof plan, as the chances are good that your next few waves will steadily push toward their turret as well, leaving you in a cycle of push, reset, push, reset.

1a) If you know where the enemy jungler is and you're confident that you can take the enemy laner if they engage on you, or at least you believe you're able to escape if they do, this is a good decision. It's tough for a lot of people to properly last hit under a tower, so you deny them gold by forcing them to compete with tower. This is also a good time to get in some harass, dropping the enemy laner's health down to something a little less safe for them.

  1. You can back off, go back to base, purchase items and heal up. This gives you item advantage and causes you to lose less overall experience and gold, but also lets the enemy laner gain some control over the wave and allows them to farm uncontested for a little while. If you have enough gold for a major item and don't think you'll be able to press your lane advantage any time soon, or if you think you're going to be ganked soon, this is a good option. If your jungler isn't clearing the jungle very quickly then you might also be able to steal one or two of his camps close to your lane for the extra xp/gold.

Cont.

Vrashk4 votes

Cont.

  1. Ward the likely gank path and keep pushing. This is a more aggressive version of 1, and it's mostly viable when you have control over your lane. If the enemy laner is scared of you or you're waiting for them to make a mistake so you can kill them, this is a good idea. Be very careful though, as this is when you're most susceptible to ganks.

Oh, if you do take your junglers camps during laning phase, just uh...don't ever mention my name. It's regarded as a pretty rude thing to do right now in the very early game, and I'd rather not have angry junglers swarming me when I'm trying to adc. Thanks.

Melee Champs

Admittedly, these do tend to have a similar problem to what you're talking about. For some melee champions it's quite difficult to get out of a fight without just walking out and hoping the enemy laner stops chasing. This is why it's so important to gauge how much damage you can do and take as a melee champion, moreso than most ranged champions. Understand your champion, how to properly engage and disengage vs. the likely champions you'll see in each lane, and practice. Sometimes walking out is the only option, but if it works, then it works.

In regards to champions like Katarina, it's best to treat them as ranged champions who have to get in close to finish their burst. Execute your damage as fast as possible and leave before the enemy retaliates. So, again using Kat as an example, Q the laner, Shunpo in, W to detonate the mark from your Q, and then use the movement speed from your W to get to a safe distance.

Laning Alone

This is a bit more of an acquired feel than some of the other points I've mentioned. Depending on how far up in the lane you are, you might not be able to escape. Proper wave control can help that, as can proper usage of Flash. But, depending on how far into the lane you are and who you're up against, there are situations where you must accept that you wouldn't be able to escape cleanly. This is, again, when you have to know how much damage you can put out and how much you can take. You have to judge for yourself in each instance if its worth the risk of a gank to get that extra poke and maybe a kill on your lane opponent.

And, of course, light the surrounding area up like a christmas tree. The more information you have on the enemy team (Their jungler especially) the more confidently you can make decisions about how far to push your wave.

Each specific lane does require practice just as much as champions themselves do, because each one has a different kind of playstyle to them.

So umm, I think I exhausted everything I planned on mentioning, and more besides. I didn't expect this to take more than one post. Wow.

Uhh...yeah. If you were looking for some more champion-specific tips then mention those, but I don't think I should make this much longer without being asked, because...damn. That was a lot of information. Probably too much, tbh...

Oh right, I didn't say much about role-specific tips, so if you would like that kind of information let me know. I know adc best, but I can give some decent tips for most champions.

So good luck! Practice solves many problems! Once you have a good grasp on one or two other lanes then don't be afraid of starting ranked, it's really not something to stress too much about. You can always rank up during the season!

Mellori1 votes

This helped a bunch, so thank you. :D I'm just replying to this post because it's the last one. xD

I already have started ranked a while back, but all I felt comfortable doing was playing support. Not that it's called often, but when it is, I'm left floundering and knowing I can't do any of the other roles too well based on my trials and errors in the past. So I figured with the new season coming up I'd learn some other roles and start out with some tips instead of going in blind.

As far as what champions I've been looking at: Top Lane: Gnar, Shyvana. Mid Lane: Ahri, Nidalee, Orianna, Syndra, Elise (I've been told she's best here if she doesn't jungle, dunno). I'd obviously have more mid-lane favorites since most of my champs are mages, y'know. ADC: I kinda like all of the ones I have. Tristana and Teemo I'd never take ADC, though. Just feels weird.

Add me if you want to. I could always use the extra tips, or someone to practice with/against if you're willing.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

looks like you've got a good lineup of champs. i would add that you shouldn't be afraid of taking your favourite support champs mid or top. blitz, karma, kayle, lulu, nami, and zilean i've found work quite well in solo lanes. they are all quite safe in lane (except for blitz) and having two support type champs can be devastating for your enemies in teamfights.

EDIT: i just noticed you own teemo. that means you are an awful person. don't play the satan champ anywhere ever. :P

Sohleks1 votes

{quoted}

looks like you've got a good lineup of champs. i would add that you shouldn't be afraid of taking your favourite support champs mid or top. blitz, karma, kayle, lulu, nami, and zilean i've found work quite well in solo lanes. they are all quite safe in lane (except for blitz) and having two support type champs can be devastating for your enemies in teamfights.

Highlighting this point. Lulu and Karma are very potent mid and top. Kayle scales well as a carry and Zilean has his uses too...

Vrashk3 votes

No problem, I'm happy to help!

Now for some champion specific tips. This should be quite a bit shorter, at least that's the plan.

Gnar

Gnar is an excellent top laner, one of my favorites right now as well. A lot of his power comes from the threat of detonating his third w stack, which makes him quite powerful for top lane since many top laners build health. (That said, don't let me convince you to max W first. Always Q.)

Some things to watch out for with Gnar is hitting the minion wave a bit too much with his boomerang can force you to push when you don't mean to. It can also help you push faster, which is helpful if your lane opponent just went back to base. The more of your minions that die to their tower, the harder you just made the lane for them. It's especially easy to push very, very quickly as mega Gnar, considering his AoE burst damage.

As a champion, Gnar is quite a good place to start if you want to learn when to engage on your enemy for a kill and when not to. Mega Gnar can pull some unexpected damage out of nowhere, so it can help you get into the mindset of "How much damage will they do to me if I pull off my full combo right now? Will I kill them fast or does the Darius have time to stack his bleed? If I engage right now, will I stop being cute and fluffy in time to not die and kill them?"

Shyvanna

The Half-Dragon is an odd champion, because while most of her damage comes from auto attacks, most of her ability to lane is tied up in her W, Burnout. It's an amazing tool for harass and kiting, and a lot of her ability to win lane comes from knowing when to straight up auto attack the enemy laner and when to let Burnout's magic damage tick on them through the wave. Again, I have to mention that her W can and will push waves harder than anticipated if you don't pay attention to where you stand in the wave.

Ahri

Not someone I have too very much experience with, but here goes.

As always, I will warn you that Ahri has the potential to push very hard, very fast. With her Q doing quite a lot of damage to the wave, she's capable of shoving to turret just by poking against most mid laners, and especially against anyone without strong AoE clear.

That said, Ahri also has the tools necessary to survive being pushed like that, with both hard cc and a lot of mobility after level 6. If you see another lane is pushing towards your team's turrets, it's a fine idea to push your lane to the enemy turret and roam, hopefully setting up a gank for one of your teammates. A well-executed Ahri gank is a terrifying thing to behold.

I'm going to skip Nidalee because I have no experience there. Land your spears as often as you can.

Orianna

Another with very nice wave clear due to the AoE nature of her kit, Orianna has both the auto attack damage and the low-cooldown, low-mana damage from her q to help her with last hitting cs. She's a bit more dangerous to push past the center of the lane with, (And her AoE will definitely push if you aren't careful) but that's because she doesn't have a dash. Her damage and slows, when intelligently applied, can still do wonders for her survival.

When positioning the ball in lane, try to think about where your opponent has to go to either poke you or last hit. You'll quickly notice that the better laners will establish a small safe zone around the ball and never willingly get closer to it. Use this to your advantage to zone them off the wave, and if they disrespect the ball, a quick Q W should fix that.

Syndra is similar to Orianna, save that you have a knockback/stun to help secure kills and deter ganks. Her Q does wonders for poke and wave clear, but the tips I can give are not fundamentally different from those for Orianna.

I also don't know Elise very well, I haven't played her recently and I don't see her played often either, apologies. She can be very fun to play, though. Her explosive spiderling will jump on your target if you use the spider-form Q, since it is, in fact, a spiderling.

ADCs are a lot more complicated to give tips on, so here's the rapid-fire version.

Jinx: Know your range for your rockets, but use them only for the AoE damage and extra range. Your minigun is your base state, rockets are for when you need extra range in a fight or for poke. This will save you a lot of mana, and might net you some extra kills. During teamfights, use your ult either to save your own life or to hit multiple targets after the fight has been going on for a little while. The same goes with your flame chompers. Securing the kill on a fleeing enemy is less important than convincingly winning the team fight, and you will do overall more damage hitting multiple targets.

Kalista: Your Rend is your friend in both cs-ing and fighting. Your support is also your friend, but that's because they contribute to your damage through W. Try to proc the W mark if they poke, but be careful of overextending. Just because you jump after every auto attack doesn't mean you're impossible to hit with skill shots. Also, use your Sentinels regularly. They have a long cooldown and it's rare there will be a "perfect" opportunity to use them, so if you feel like tossing one in the jungle for safer laning, go for it.

Miss Fortune: Build Blade of the Ruined King first. A lot of Miss fortune's damage comes from her auto attacks, even though hitting those high-damage Qs feels so good. I promise you that if it's a Miss Fortune with Blade of the Ruined King verses a Miss Fortune with Infinity Edge, unless there is an absurd number of crits going out, the BotRK Miss Fortune will win. Learn how to use her Q to hit the enemy laner with the bounce, because it does so much more damage.

Sivir: She needs a hard-engage support like Leona or Thresh to perform the best she can, because her early game damage is phenomenal, but she doesn't scale well into late game. So she has to convincingly win early game and make sure the enemy ADC doesn't farm their way back to relevance. Her Spell-Shield is one of the most fun abilities in the game when you start shielding point-blank abilities.

Teemo isn't really an ADC, he is Satan in disguise. He also doesn't scale as well with AD as he does with AP. So there's that.

Tristana: She is going to push the lane. Don't fight it, don't try to stop it, it's just going to happen. Her explosive shot is amazing for wave clear, but because it can't be turned off, you will be at the enemy turret before you know it. Her jump ignores CC for the first half second of the animation, so if you're expecting CC to stop you from escaping, just use the jump. You might still be CC'd after landing, but you're likely a lot farther away from danger than you were before.

Varus: Another I would recommend building Blade of the Ruined King on. Attack speed is so very important for him to get early, as a lot of his dueling potential comes from detonating his stacks of W with an ability. Sniping people with a full Q is all well and good, but during a fight you do lose damage if you fully charge your Q. As an ADC, auto attacks are your friends.

Vayne: The cleanest ADC mechanics in the game, playing a good Vayne feels legendary, and playing a bad one feels like you're impotent. Vayne's positioning is more important than a lot of other things, as she wants to get off as many autos as possible. Use your ult freely, if you think you'll be fighting more than three seconds then pop it. The stealth is amazing for faking people out as well. If you see another Vayne and want to gauge how good they are, watch how often they Tumble in a fight. The more they tumble, the better they are. It sounds arbitrary but its surprisingly true.

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

wow, good post. i don't think i can add too much to that.

Sohleks2 votes

Lane control... you can last hit only. You can slow push. Or fast push. Knowing what to do is matchup and situation dependent.

Last hit only is good if you're ranged, especially if you're ranged (versus melee). When your opponent steps up to hit creeps if he's melee (or last hit if he's ranged) you can attack them. Landing auto attacks on enemy champions will draw creep aggro (but not your abilities!). Creep aggro hurts you if you're too close to his minions and it pushes your lane because their minions switch to fighting you instead of your minions. You might draw creep aggro in trades, the idea is to burst as hard you can then step back or into a bush to lose aggro.

Slow push. I call slow pushing where you try to hit level 2 first by doing some extra minion damage. Just enough so you hit level 2 first but not so fast their wave is nearly dead and they can turret hug. Just being 1 creep kill ahead of you opponent is enough. The idea is they still have to lane to get their farm, but are under pressure... Try not to get out-traded, you need to stay stronger so you opponent can't freeze near his turret. Your minion wave will eventually get too strong, so once he's too safe near his turret and it's too dangerous for you to lane just clear his minion wave to get yours under tower to reset lane. If he tries to tank/hold minions in front of his tower move up and attack him. Slow push is like the default strategy for me in solo queue.

Fast push. Extremely situational. Only 2v2 lanes or champs with good early waveclear can even push hard enough to call it a fast push. You let enemies get their farm for free under tower, but this is one way to nullify your opponents aggression. Pretty much only done in unfavorable matchups. You might be able to find time for an early recall and pick up extra potions/wards or an item maybe.

It's not just about which champion is stronger. Lane control and using the minions to your advantage in trades makes you a smarter player. When pushing be sure to ward and watch the map. It's gonna take practice and experience to strategically manipulate the minions, trade with your opponent, and grab all the CS possible while watching map.

Mid game you'll generally want to farm any creeps left alone on your half the map. What happens if a wave sits on your side unattended is your side gets reinforcements first so it gets stronger and very slowly pushes out and your team loses lots of creeps. Then the enemy can get a giant pile of creeps outside their turret. Usually not as important as being in a teamfight, winning and getting objectives though.

I talk about very micro'y stuff but this kind of knowledge will benefit you on any champion

fdissht2 votes

Everything said here plus

  • Confidence, people get it by experience, some naturally have it. It's just a game no need to wreck your nerves trying to learn. -Learning many champs allows you to play with and around them, start playing few melees and the rest will feel somewhat familiar (with assassins being exception) -Play with friends, enjoy the game, it makes learning faster and fun

Remember not even pros are infallible, dying is part of the game, just try to prevent it as much as possible and play your hardest

KIei1 votes

Last hit in order not to push a lane, your enemy laner is most likely to do the same, unless they're pushing. I like to freeze my lane right outside my tower where I feel safe to farm.

Acidic Puddle1 votes

From what you have said i think going mid would be very beneficial for now because most mids can also be played top. I main Nidalee and can do wonders with her in S5, and she can be played top as well. Also from what you have been saying I think you might like TwistedFate or Xerath because they are both long range mages that benefit greatly from good map awareness.

Dreadkings Heir1 votes

From what I'm seeing from your pool of champions I can see that Veigar would help you get better with your cs cause he needs to cs with his Q to become more powerful and Nasus is the same as Veigar but Nasus goes top lane and Veigar goes mid. I main mostly melee champs when it comes to my lanes a good example would be Zed (My best champion) who goes mid and occasionally top and he is against alot of ranged champions in the mid lane but he can easily dish out more damage than he receives if he is played correctly. But with most Assassins you can roam alot or you can just stay in your lane. I mostly play with my friends so I roam if they need my help against their lane partner so it's better to try out new things with friends you trust who won't yell at you if you do bad cause I've mad mistakes calling some people friend but the friends I play with now don't care with the things I do. Take this advice from the guy who tried doing Varus and Draven top and somehow winning.

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