Question for the supports

DarkDeamonDragon·Aug 25, 2015·1 votes·1,200 views

So last night I was playing Vel'Koz support (on red side) and everything was going great for like the first 5 minutes of the game. Then we get dived 4v2 under tower (our jungler was caught and melted in the jungle 2v1 by Ahri and Shyvanna) and my ADC starts flaming me for not tanking the skill shots for her. Says I'm making her the meat shield when she's been standing still for the most part while farming. She also says I'm not poking enough when I'm close to out of mana in lane. I finally muted her when she says I'm not warding when all we were doing after about 15 minutes was defending towers.

My question is, should I have been tanking all the skill shots for her even though I was playing a squishy support and she wasn't moving around too much when CSing?

I know I didn't have enough wards out for a 50 minute game, but when you're stuck defending towers for 20 minutes it's hard to get out and ward without the possibility of getting caught (which I probably would have been flamed for anyway). I was just wondering if someone could take a look at the history and let me know what I can work on for next time.

15 Comments

KingWanahakalugiAug 25, 20152 votes

I'm Morgana / Blitzcrank supp main. Warding with a squishy support is a dangerous task. Being pushed under towers doesn't help the matter. There are relatively safe locations to ward even when they're pushed that still provide information to your team, but it still doesn't always mean the enemy won't be there waiting. As for body blocking, it is important to take some skill shots (even on a squishy), but it is just as important that your ADC moves to avoid skill shots as much as possible. There's nothing wrong with asking your ADC to be more mobile nicely (raging back never gets anywhere). Unless I have taken the kills from my ADC though, I will almost always sacrifice myself to save them if I feel they have a reasonable chance of escaping (if you do your job right they'll always be worth more gold than you). Lastly, I just want to say using smart pings is a very effective tool for whatever may come up. Most of the time I convince the ADC to trust me and my pings. I simply say if I mess up and make a bad call they don't have to listen to me. Otherwise, let me call the shots, so they can focus on farm and poke. I'll ward, watch the map, and provide escapes or engages.

Aeolian MelodiesAug 25, 20151 votes

You tank what you can tank. I play Janna/Sona/Nami amd if it's not going to get you killed or forced out of lane and she's going to eat it, you can take it to the face. If it's going to kill her but not you, absolutely take it to the face. Meat shielding and body blocking (barring enemy path with your own character to slow them down) can save a life so it's worth doing if you know you can get away with it.

DarkDeamonDragonAug 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=3dMNiEc5,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-25T12:18:42.151+0000)

You tank what you can tank. I play Janna/Sona/Nami amd if it's not going to get you killed or forced out of lane and she's going to eat it, you can take it to the face. If it's going to kill her but not you, absolutely take it to the face. Meat shielding and body blocking (barring enemy path with your own character to slow them down) can save a life so it's worth doing if you know you can get away with it.

Thanks for the advice! I guess I could have blocked more, but is it too much to ask that the ADC not stand still when shots are coming their way? There's only so many times that I can block an attack while they're not moving around.

DartFeldAug 25, 20151 votes

It depends on what adc they're playing. If it's someone slippery with some sort of dash (Lucian, graves, Cait with her net, etc) I absolutely expect the to dodge their own skill shots when conditions are right. If they start getting focused by two people, sorry that's not gonna fly. I'm body blocking as much of that as I can. Expecting them to dodge single skill shots is one thing, expecting them to dodge simultaneous skillshots from various angles is another. or heal up whenever I can maintain enough mana to do so, as well as harassing, etc. I play a lot of Nami and Braum, by the way. Braum is a fantastic meat shield. Not only does he set up a wall for projectiles, he also takes reduced damage from them. Nami heals up any light poking they take, but can't outheal an all in. If it's an adc without a dash, I still expect them to play safer, and stay at a range that they can dodge those skill shots. Same conditions apply, but this time there's not a whole lot they can do Vs a flash initiate. Even adc's with dashes cant do a whole lot against flash initiates, but ones without dashes can do even less, and they're just gonna end up taking it to the face. That's when you peel, protect, heal, exhaust the enemy, etc. whatever you can do to help them survive. If you know for a fact that you trying to save them means you're going to die, you've got another split second decision to make. Will your death allow them to escape? If the answer is yes, do your job and get in the enemy's face. You dying has the least negative impact on your team at that point. When your adc survives, they can recall and heal. When they recall and heal, they can get back to lane faster. When they get back to lane faster, they get more farm. When they get more farm, they get more items. When they get more items, they deal more damage. You doing your job as support allows your carry do their job as a damage dealer.

Now in this case where your adc isn't doing much to help themselves, and is expecting you to, basically, do half of their job for them (safe positioning) you just ignore what they say. If they're going to die and put the blame solely on you, leave them to their own devices and force them to learn. More than likely, trying to do your job as a support for them is going to get you both killed. Start roaming to other lanes, throw out some wards where you can, and keep an eye on the map for who could actually use your services effectively. Go help them instead. Bot lane is lost regardless of wether you stay or not. Your best bet is to help someone else on your team get fed in their place, because bot lane is definitely not going to do it.

Aeolian MelodiesAug 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=IH DeamonDragon,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=3dMNiEc5,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-25T12:30:26.176+0000)

Thanks for the advice! I guess I could have blocked more, but is it too much to ask that the ADC not stand still when shots are coming their way? There's only so many times that I can block an attack while they're not moving around.

Well, indeed, sometimes they're really not helping themselves. I've had many of them cry for shields/heals when I've gone OOM strictly by using it on them anytime it's up because they couldn't dodge a skillshot if their life depended on it, and then they wonder why I have no mana to trade @.@. When it comes to face-tanking it for them, you have even less margin because you don't want to be forced out of lane yourself and fall super behind in experience because _they _can't move.

There are also skillshots like Blitz or Thresh's hooks that you don't want to tank as a squishy support because they mean death for you as much as for the ADC.

DartFeldAug 26, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=3dMNiEc5,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-26T12:13:35.517+0000)

There are also skillshots like Blitz or Thresh's hooks that you don't want to tank as a squishy support because they mean death for you as much as for the ADC.

I have to disagree with you there. Unless your adc is just terrible (I know, it happens) you DO want to face tank them. If your adc is doing their job right, you are worth less gold than they are. The unfortunate side of this, is that if they are doing their job right, they shouldn't be in a position to get hooked.

However, people make mistakes. And if it's an honest mistake (like the first one they make in 10 minutes) you tank that hook and you die. You go down fighting, but you're worth 300 gold. A proper adc is ideally worth 500. You save your team from that 200 gold difference. That's part of the job of a support.

Aeolian MelodiesAug 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have to disagree with you there. Unless your adc is just terrible (I know, it happens) you DO want to face tank them. If your adc is doing their job right, you are worth less gold than they are. The unfortunate side of this, is that if they are doing their job right, they shouldn't be in a position to get hooked.

However, people make mistakes. And if it's an honest mistake (like the first one they make in 10 minutes) you tank that hook and you die. You go down fighting, but you're worth 300 gold. A proper adc is ideally worth 500. You save your team from that 200 gold difference. That's part of the job of a support.

I am talking strictly laning phase where unless we have gotten a couple of kills in lane I am worth about as much gold as they are.

I was also mostly referring to solo queue where I have no garen-tee that the ADC won't either 1) think I somehow want to engage, stick around, and give double kill or 2) call me bad for the rest of the game and go afk for 5 min because "lol this support can't dodge".

I also have no reason to tank a skillshot of death if it's going to kill ME for sure and my ADC might survive it (especially with my help, think Janna here - you are a lot less screwed if the ADC gets engaged on and you can react than if YOU get engaged on and can't react).

DartFeldAug 27, 20151 votes

Lol that first scenario has happened to me more times than I'm happy with. Those are fair points. I've started to play a lot of Braum, so I'm kinda biased in the whole tanking part right now :P before that, I played Nami, though. So I definitely see your point of wanting to be free for your CC. I would only argue that in Janna's case, you can set up your whirlwind while you're on your way into the fray of tanking one of those for them. And launch it the moment you're free, or immediately before you get hit. Those scenarios are HIGHLY time sensitive (not to mention precision mouse work) and extremely difficult to set up within the milliseconds you have available. The safer way is definitely more reliable.

The right reactions are always situational. And I'm perfectly fine with making the wrong decision. As long as I (and my lane partner) learn from that mistake and don't let it happen again :P

Aeolian MelodiesAug 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lol that first scenario has happened to me more times than I'm happy with. Those are fair points. I've started to play a lot of Braum, so I'm kinda biased in the whole tanking part right now :P before that, I played Nami, though. So I definitely see your point of wanting to be free for your CC. I would only argue that in Janna's case, you can set up your whirlwind while you're on your way into the fray of tanking one of those for them. And launch it the moment you're free, or immediately before you get hit. Those scenarios are HIGHLY time sensitive (not to mention precision mouse work) and extremely difficult to set up within the milliseconds you have available. The safer way is definitely more reliable.

The right reactions are always situational. And I'm perfectly fine with making the wrong decision. As long as I (and my lane partner) learn from that mistake and don't let it happen again :P

I do like to setup tornado, get in, ult, then as they thing "time to re-engage on Janna" release the almost fully charged gale and run away giggling with my ADC :D Janna

illustratorAug 25, 20151 votes

Im a Lulu/Karma/Janna main and those are most definitely squishy support champs. Vel'Koz does tons of damage, and is fairly squishy himself. Don't let your adc harass you, but dont be afraid to learn from what they are saying. As Vel'Koz you wont be able to take a lot of major attacks from the enemys but you you should try your best to make sure your adc does not have less health than you. (unless theyre being reckless and jumping into fighting.) What helps is trying your best to poke down the enemy and get them to back away from your adc and only focus on farming. An adcs job is to collect farm and do damage while your role is to make sure they can do it safely while exposing the enemy adc to damage.

Here are a couple of points. -You can definitely poke while your out of mana by punishing the enemy adc when they go to kill a minion just with an autoattack. -Try to preserve your mana and alternate between a good use of abilities and just autoattacking...this helps in case you get ganked and need to use mana. -Positioning is key and using your higher damage abilites when you know they will hit your target is always better. -Warding is definitely a crucial aspect. Vision especially becomes more important when you are behind in a game and need map control. Start off by warding your jungle and places you feel comfortable with, or wait till your with your team. ALWAYS WARD.

You got this, :D

DarkDeamonDragonAug 25, 20151 votes

Thank you so much for the advice!

TyrenAug 25, 20151 votes

Since people already covered the body blocking, but if my adc can't dodge the skill shots most of the time they kinda deserve it. That's what I think. I've had a few get poked down with Soraka's Q, it's so easy to dodge. I under stand getting hit by a few, but getting hit by more than half of them is just plain bad.

When I'm getting pushed back make sure to ward your tri brush, river where you can, and red/ blue depending on the side. Of course only when you are safe enough to do so. Also, you can ward over the wall on both sides. Watch warding videos for supports too learn the trick, it's easier to learn them with visual aid. To help with vision clearing I get a pink ( if I have enough) and a sweeper when I get sight stone.

DarkDeamonDragonAug 25, 20151 votes

Are there any videos you would recommend?

DartFeldAug 25, 20151 votes

Heres a relevant video on this lane. It's lengthy, so it's up to you wether you want to spend an hour watching it or not. It's a fantastic learning series on many topics. Basic mechanics, engaging, playstyles (assassins, adcs, etc) lane control, and many others. Tons and tons of content in the series, but this is the one for bot lane:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5rn2vQNqKho

For the whole series you're looking at over 16 hours of learning. It doesn't cover 100% of everything, but it's a very beneficial resource to use. Keep in mind that some information is outdated (obsolete items, pre-reworked champions, etc) but it's a solid foundation to build your skills on.

Edit: had the wrong lecture number. Replaced the link

KyleKicksRocksAug 26, 20151 votes

I think it really depends on the circumstance, you should only be taking the shots when you need to. Your adc shouldn't even be getting hit by them in the first place. If taking some shots would prevent your adc from leaving the lane or possibly dying than yeah take some. This also coincides with what support your playing, taking shots while playing Bard Janna vs Leona Blitzcrank are totally different.