Skip to content

Question for sliver or higher players... what could I be doing wrong?

DeloricVI··1 votes·2,004 views

So, last night, I lost a whopping total of at least 70 LP. Why? I personally think it's my team's fault. Several days earlier, I had reached 100 LP, but failed both my promos because of my team. I had a recent thread about asking how to carry a bad team, but at this point I'm thinking I'm asking the wrong questions.

There is no doubt that a good team makes winning easier, but should I be asking how to carry them, or should I be asking what I'm doing wrong? My win rate varies so widely on every champion, but it usually ends up negative... I see a lot of things that I just can't seem to persuade my team not to do. Here's a short list of things that lost me my last 3 games that my team refused to listen to my advice about or just can't prevent:

Splitting up and getting caught out when the laning phase is over Feeding before 5 minutes Intentionally feeding Split pushing when we don't have the advantage People building full AD on Tank Champions (and losing lane because they have no sustain) Not placing enough wards Not placing any pink wards

Now, I do my best to follow my own advice, but am I, and usually one or two other people, following that advice enough to win in bronze? Am I being punished for something I'm doing wrong or my team? Everyone knows that League doesn't exactly give you feedback when you do something wrong, other than "YOU HAVE BEEN SLAIN."

I've also noted that op.gg thinks my mmr is around the mid 400's, which I recently read is where the abysmal players are, and where it is truly hard to get out of. The "true elo hell," so called. Is this true?

I'm willing to answer any questions about how I play, what I do in game, etc. I really want to get better... I'm tired of just feeling cheated by this game's flawed ranking system. I'm tired of being in trash tier where I feel like I can't improve at all and I'm completely at the mercy of my team's skill level.

48 Comments

CoolKnightST1 votes

You didn't mentioned roaming. Focus on objective to prevent the random splitup.

DeloricVI1 votes

I roam to lanes that struggle whenever I start getting fed, or if my enemy laner is stubbornly staying back and playing super safe so I can pick up a kill or assist (usually).

Arrowe1 votes

As soon as you focus on gaining MMR and not LP the game becomes a lot easier in my opinion

DeloricVI1 votes

I know they're not the same, but you get both to go up by winning, so there's always pressure to win? I'm not following the logic...

Smitemuffin1 votes

At that elo, you have to have pretty low-end personal mechanics to be where you are. Otherwise you can easily crush lane, roam and snowball a second lane. That alone will win you most games on average.

Verxint1 votes

If you're below silver, don't expect anything from or rely on your team.

You literally need to dunk your lane, roam to other lanes, dunk them, snowball, and win. Take as much gold as possible, get items faster.

This is assuming you're actually better than bronze. If not, focus on making your own play better before you focus on what your team does.

Even someone at a high silver level should be able to destroy bronze pretty easily.

DeloricVI1 votes

I don't rely on my team to stomp; I just rely on them to play like they have some general idea of how league of legends works. It's a long shot now that I think about it, but is that a lot to ask for? As long as my team doesn't feed uncontrollably, I usually do fairly well.

In my most recent game with Veigar, we lost because, late game, I couldn't stop my team from getting caught out one by one in the jungle and throwing the game, just because they wouldn't listen to me. I was left defending the nexus and one tower against 4 champions with my everyone else on my team dead. Even the most stacked and fed veigar is going to have trouble stopping, say, darius, vayne, diana and ahri all at once.

I tried playing a lot of Sion jungle, support lulu, and teemo top, but I mainly stopped for a few reasons, most of them based on my teammates. In the case of Sion, no one would cooperate with me. I swear, I'd ping that I'm on my way and they start pushing. Then, when I get around to engaging at an opportune time, they have high health, high mana, but run away for no reason and leave me to get killed. In the case of lulu, I was tired of getting carries that can't cs, always get killed no matter how many times I shield them, ult them, or polymorph the enemy adc. They were just horrible. With Teemo, no one knows how to use his shrooms to make the team fight better. They run away from them when trying to get away, they move away from them when the fight starts, or the kite the tank with a banshee's veil over it so it does nothing.

Maybe you're right... Maybe I need to get better at adc, assassin junglers, and mid laners.

Verxint1 votes

Teammates teammates teammates teammates. Stop obsessing over your teammates. You can't change them.

I don't know the right words to tell you, but all this energy you're spending wondering how to make your teammates work together is energy you don't spend improving yourself.

I guess the easiest way to say it is that you don't need your team to win until high gold or plat or so.

If your team gets caught out, instead of sitting there questioning why, pay attention and try to turn your teammate overextending into a pick for your team. You said you were veigar, why not wait for them to gank your teammate and use that to land a stun?

Tldr of it is you get no benefit from thinking about how to make your team do what you want. Instead think of how to adapt and win despite what your team is doing.

Teslyn1 votes

basic problems at that elo is ... people chase kills and over stay when you get an objective.

Archon X1 votes
TheNoxusWarrior1 votes

looks like he's one of those "carry" supports.

DeloricVI1 votes

Um, check the team comp. We had no AP. AD Alone can be fine, but is easily countered. It's the only reason I go straight damage on Lulu unless I'm going mid. Late game, maybe I'll build more AP than anything but that's if I've already bought some pretty standard utility items. Lulu can have huge damage if she needs to build it, and I felt like, in that game, things seemed like we would need some AP.

I hate to come across as unable to accept new ideas, but what gives you the impression that I always think a support needs to carry or build damage? Don't get me wrong, I would like your help, but I could do without your tone. It's starting to get on my nerves. There is a way to help someone while at least acting like they're not the scum of the earth because they're wrong about something or they do something that you find to be annoying.

TheNoxusWarrior1 votes

A full AD team is "easily" countered by a tank. Look at their team comp, they had none. Also malphite was building some AP though and jax is mixed damage but is towards physical damage, that isn't enough to off set the amount of AD you had but with yasuo's 50% armor pen and the armor pen from lw on varus you should of focused more on utility. Sorry I don't put fluff and bs into what I say it seems pointless to me so I don't do it.

DeloricVI1 votes

I guess I could understand the language thing. This is the internet so tone is not well conveyed through text.

Also, you're right, I should have built for utility. Even if the enemy team all built thornmail for some odd reason we'd still have a fighting chance. I was explaining my reasoning... but yeah, that game was a big mistake. Even if other factors did contribute to the loss, I wasn't doing my job.... at least not correctly. I did get some early game picks, but without building more cdr earlier (nashor's was me trying to build cdr and damage, which was bad, and it was the last item I built... near the end of the game, I think). Not to mention a sightstone, as far from flashy as it would have been to buy is probably better than just upgrading my trinket and calling it good enough... which I have gotten into the nasty habit of doing on support lately, despite how rarely I actually end up playing it.

I also got myself a proper tank support. Sion is good and it works and it's flashy and all, but going with Taric gives me more consistency, more options for my lane, and is generally better for the role. I'm sorry again for jumping to conclusions and getting needlessly mad at you about your "tone" that I just assumed was there.

ExoNautic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=2OnVtOwE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-10-20T19:38:56.824+0000)

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1982117963/211474015?tab=overview

what position were you playing that game? I cannot tell.

cant tell if this is sarcasm or lack of exp

Archon X2 votes

it's sarcasm dude, I'm platinum 2.

he's supposed to be support but has no sightstone.

hh the thinker1 votes

try to deduce your amount of deaths. aim for 2 or less if you can, while still having as much impact as you can in the game. at bronze 5, you can go games without dying at all, but no one is expecting perfect which is why i say 2 or less.

you say that you can't improve at your rank, but you really can. learn from each death, improve cs, don't get caught out. it's the small simple things that make the big difference.

look for what you can control and what you can work on. if you end up improving on everything you can think of, and can't find any more mistakes, that's when you want to get someone possible to re-watch your games, but i would say you should do this first and really be critical as if you were watching someone else.

one website i like to look at (it's not fact with everything it says, but it's a good start to know what to focus on) is http://freelo.gg/summoner/NA/DeloricVI

DeloricVI1 votes

Thanks for the link, although I do find a few things confusing...

For one, it said my cs was bronze level in a 47 minute game, though, in a 42 minute game I had a comparable amount of cs, and it said I was silver?

Also, there are these arrows and numbers next to the symbols for the rank... any ideas of what those numbers mean? I'd love to be using this data to help me along on my path to... silver, at this point. Gold and up are probably a long ways away, so silver is a good thing to shoot for right now -.-

hh the thinker1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for the link, although I do find a few things confusing...

For one, it said my cs was bronze level in a 47 minute game, though, in a 42 minute game I had a comparable amount of cs, and it said I was silver?

Also, there are these arrows and numbers next to the symbols for the rank... any ideas of what those numbers mean? I'd love to be using this data to help me along on my path to... silver, at this point. Gold and up are probably a long ways away, so silver is a good thing to shoot for right now -.-

each game is different and i did say don't take everything as fact, use it more to just have a focus on what to improve on. for cs, you want 80 in 10 minutes, and 160 at 20 minutes, and 240 about at 30 minutes. you can get more and you can get less, but this is generally a good goal for csing.

the lower the rank, the worse it is and if it says -2, that's worse than -1. again, it's not 100% accurate and some games you might want to give up csing for free kills, but it helps to focus on something to improve on and work at it.

make sure you try to ward more, cs, few to no deaths, give kills to your team for assists if possible, and get kills. try to get as much damage off, without getting punished too harshly for it. work on positioning and map awareness. there is just so much, and it's hard to know what you need to work on the most without actually seeing you play, but i'm sure you can find a few things to improve on. even if you feel it doesn't have an impact, it does.

one thing you can do is record your games with op.gg and re-watch them.

best of luck to your improvement.

DeloricVI1 votes

Ok, thank you. I'll probably record a few games and see what (if anything) I could try to prevent and work out how before I actually try to go to a more experienced player with it. I do want help, but I feel like this is a good place to take the advice and run with it for the time being.

TheNoxusWarrior1 votes

I believe that no one should say "its my team's fault" after a loss because at the end of the day you can't improve the people on your team but you can improve on yourself. So after EVERY game just take a min and think "what could I have done better" and if you think of nothing then well you need to get more game knowledge. Also supporting sucks in low elo we all know this but that doesn't mean if you get stuck with it you go off and do some stupid ass "carry" support build. Support is for utility, not damage, so suck it up buttercup and just be helpful instead of doing tons of damage because you'll never have enough gold to do good damage if you did your role right.

DeloricVI1 votes

I get it that not every loss is my team's fault. I know I don't play perfect, but according to everyone else, no one does. Maybe Plat and Diamond get close, but no one has a perfect game. There are times where I learn something, but other times I have to say, "we could have been fine/won if my team would have listened to me." At my MMR, you would be surprised how 2-3 members of one team can throw so hard that the remaining players are essentially powerless to stop the enemy team. I know it sounds like I have a blaming problem, but some players are so abysmal, there's nothing I can do to help them, other than tell them not to do something and hope that they listen. (They usually don't)

Also, mentioned it in my other comment but figured I'd mention it here just to address everything. There is one game where I play lulu out of the past 30 games, which I think is what you're talking about. I did that for a reason, and that was my team comp; no one else wanted to get any AP going, which makes the team easy to counter. Also, when I start building damage or taking kills on support (which does occasionally happen) it's only because I found that my carry clearly doesn't know what they're doing, and allows me to take those kills. If they aren't going to carry, someone has to or the enemy team's just going to stomp us out of existence.

TheNoxusWarrior1 votes

Then I has a question for you. As the support with kills you deemed to be more useful on yourself what do you do then? Do you stay in lane keep you adc farming or do you roam, put wards down, and gank other lanes (mostly mid lane)? Mentioned why you didn't need damage in other comment.

Rossonious1 votes

Losing costs you nothing at that Elo so stop giving a crap about the outcome of the game. You're obviously not mechanically gifted yet to just stomp people yet so don't worry about that either yet. Focus on CS without being hit or killed. Then when you've mastered that focus on CS without getting hit or killed while causing harm to the opponent. After that focus on living through big fights (staying at your max effective range while being near tanks basically), then after that focus on living through big fights while using all abilities AND items to impact the fight.

You should be mid/high bronze after getting through each of those tasks progressively. Just understand that at that Elo sometimes there will be such a big skill disparity between teams that games will be literally unwinnable for you even if you were literally a gold caliber player (not many if you were LITERALLY gold but enough).

Stop worrying about LP and winning because you are very behind the curve mechanically and in basic game knowledge. Just spam ranked games (no goddamn anxiety I swear to god goddamnit there's no reason to feel anxious AT ALL at your Elo) and just take it one step at a time.

MUTE EVERYONE TOO PLZ. Ty for reading and good luck. I started this season B5 -40 LP and have been as high as S3 using this advice.

DeloricVI1 votes

Ok, on a few things, I can see where you're coming from. But, I don't really "worry" about winning a game. To worry implies that there's some anxiety. I don't get anxious, I just want to win. That's the point of playing this kind of game; to not lose. I know that's a pretty gross oversimplification, but it's true, isn't it?

I get that sometimes I'm not going to be able to win no matter how well I play. This mmr is such a grab bag of players that there's no real way of knowing if I'm going to get screwed just because someone's misplaced or someone on my team deserves to be in cardboard 5, instead of bronze 5.

Also, I'd like to say I'm pretty confident in my game knowledge department (at least, compared to a lot of people I see making some truly horrible decisions), and I'd like to think my mechanics are alright if I want to be modest. If you haven't noticed by my match history, I'm not playing ridiculously complicated champions like Yasuo, Zed, or Bard.

Just so you know, I also disagree with muting everyone. While, yes, bad teammates can use team chat to put you on tilt, but I mute on an individual basis, because team chat can tell you a lot about who might need more help or what a ping might mean (e.g. pinging red before the game starts doesn't always mean 'ward red buff plz')

Thank you for the advice. I feel like you mean well even though I don't really appreciate the how it was said. Hell, it probably needed to be said. Since I started this thread, I've seen a lot of tools that I didn't know about before and thus had no way of telling how I stack up in some areas to players in other divisions.

Rossonious1 votes

Sorry for the tone man. I'm just on tilt myself ;)

CrisisEchoes1 votes

{quoted}

So, last night, I lost a whopping total of at least 70 LP. Why? I personally think it's my team's fault. Several days earlier, I had reached 100 LP, but failed both my promos because of my team. I had a recent thread about asking how to carry a bad team, but at this point I'm thinking I'm asking the wrong questions.

There is no doubt that a good team makes winning easier, but should I be asking how to carry them, or should I be asking what I'm doing wrong? My win rate varies so widely on every champion, but it usually ends up negative... I see a lot of things that I just can't seem to persuade my team not to do. Here's a short list of things that lost me my last 3 games that my team refused to listen to my advice about or just can't prevent:

Splitting up and getting caught out when the laning phase is over Feeding before 5 minutes Intentionally feeding Split pushing when we don't have the advantage People building full AD on Tank Champions (and losing lane because they have no sustain) Not placing enough wards Not placing any pink wards

Now, I do my best to follow my own advice, but am I, and usually one or two other people, following that advice enough to win in bronze? Am I being punished for something I'm doing wrong or my team? Everyone knows that League doesn't exactly give you feedback when you do something wrong, other than "YOU HAVE BEEN SLAIN."

I've also noted that op.gg thinks my mmr is around the mid 400's, which I recently read is where the abysmal players are, and where it is truly hard to get out of. The "true elo hell," so called. Is this true?

I'm willing to answer any questions about how I play, what I do in game, etc. I really want to get better... I'm tired of just feeling cheated by this game's flawed ranking system. I'm tired of being in trash tier where I feel like I can't improve at all and I'm completely at the mercy of my team's skill level.

I promise you, if you can pull off 150 cs by 20, focus down objectives instead of kills, ward, and average less than 5 deaths per game, you will win any game in bronze with no effort at all. (providing youre not jg or support ofcourse)

Uguuubear1 votes

Below Silver,everyone sucks,so never rely on your team and never on smurfs. To win,either your enemy team 5 man dives you and then give you a pentakill,or just have to win lane roam roam roam push roam farm steal your jg's farm

ShaftyMegee1 votes

I'm not ranked, but I looked at your match history and I saw that you have been playing ap mid recently. Even though you buy loads of ap, you don't buy any magic pen, (besides boots) which is pretty damn necessary unless you are so ahead you don't give a shit about their builds.

Just my quick suggestion is to look more into MP instead of more mana

DeloricVI1 votes

Most of the time (while I understand that runes, masteries, and champion's native stats weigh in) no one builds magic resist. While I can yell at my team for disregarding magic resist for the sake of damage, it works both ways. In bronze, a lot of the time, no one buys anything like that until it's too late.

Although, sometimes I have trouble finding a good spell pen item for the situation. Any suggestions? I really don't like getting void staff if I can help it, and liandry's torment loses some effectiveness with Veigar rather than someone who has more consistent slows/cc. It's still good, but not great... probably not optimal.

Markashh1 votes

Trust me, you'll be glad you got that Void Staff third item on Veigar after Athene's and Rabadon's. Also, do you run magic pen runes when you play an AP champ? They are great early. I used to hate building Void Staff just like you, but just buy a few times as your third item, and hopefully you'll see a noticeable difference.

Markashh1 votes

My BIGGEST tip, is to have a duo partner. Trust me, it got me out of Bronze last weekend. I had like a 9 game winning streak with a buddy, and flew into ranked. Honestly, I don't play ranked without a buddy, and only play with someone who you can communicate with, meaning both of you are using Skype, TeamSpeak, Curse, etc. It's just one person who you can assure won't play stupid, and you can coordinate together. Personally when I duo'd we didn't even play roles with synergy often, things like JG/TOP, MID/TOP, and SUP/JG.

DeloricVI1 votes

It's amazing what the difference can be between a team with you and 4 people you can't trust, and a team with you, one person you can trust, and 3 people you can't trust to not do stupid things, no matter what the team comp/role combination.

TouchpadExpert1 votes

I'm unranked so my advice may not be up to par with your standards. But I will give it anyway.

One of the most useful skills you can have in this game is communication skills. When you log into a pick lobby try to start a discussion with the team. Try to gauge the demeanor of your teammates. Try to tell a joke and see how they respond. Those initial 70 seconds can tell you their mood, their willingness to work with the team, if you have a duo, if they are in a rush and whether or not they even speak English. Just important info you can use to answer the question "is this team worth using a dodge?" Now that you're in game ask them how they feel about their match-ups. Or what the game plan is for later on in the game. Perhaps suggest items for certain teammates if X opponent gets ahead. When the game gets started use your pings conservatively but informatively. First person to do something good congratulate them. If they are struggling offer advice before you give it. If they don't want it write them off as a lost lane and focus on someone who is doing well. Inflate that guy's ego and make the player who declined your help jealous for your attention. Come mid or late game remind the team of the plan you made earlier. Have a short discussion on any adaptations you want made to the plan and proceed according. Use your tab and verbally remind teammates of dragon timer or tip someone off when a tower gets low health somewhere. Remind them of ward upgrades. That's a good chunk of what I do every game.

And unrelated, in the login screen look at your opponents. Come up with a game plan on what you plan to do for each opponent in the chance they get fed. What items to build and what techniques you can use to get an advantage over them.

DeloricVI1 votes

I try to stay positive every game; positive energy wins games!

Some of that other stuff I sometimes neglect or just didn't think of. Sometimes, a player is really bad, but other times a few encouraging words can go a long way. And if my team starts arguing, I'm always the one to come in and say "We have 5 enemies already; we don't need 2 more."

I'm glad someone recommended this though, especially with someone who said I should MUTE everyone from the start... and that's not how I play this game. lol

TouchpadExpert1 votes

{quoted}

I try to stay positive every game; positive energy wins games!

Some of that other stuff I sometimes neglect or just didn't think of. Sometimes, a player is really bad, but other times a few encouraging words can go a long way. And if my team starts arguing, I'm always the one to come in and say "We have 5 enemies already; we don't need 2 more."

I'm glad someone recommended this though, especially with someone who said I should MUTE everyone from the start... and that's not how I play this game. lol

I'm a persuasive person in real life so I use that skill in here. I've actually won games that were "unwinnable" simply by persuading one other teammate not to surrender with me. The other team gets sloppy, we capitalize on their mistakes, we come back and we win. Then at the end of the game I thank the person who held out on surrendering and say nothing to the vocal teammates who did want to surrender. That's another tip, never surrender no matter how bleak it looks. Sometimes you get lucky when you get opponents who have no clue on how to close out a game and you win it all back.

Spud4You1 votes

As someone who's recently climbed quite a bit in my first season, I feel I have a little bit of advice to give you. Quite honestly when I got placed I was not where I deserved to be and tilted down, which looking at various charts it appears happened to you. What I did following was to look directly at my champ pool, and revise it. Honestly, as much as you might like the champions you play in a season, you have to consider if that champion has the same potential to carry patch after patch with all the changes. It seems like I'm a FOtM player, and honestly, I am a little, but it's because I made a dedication to improving. What's important from this is if you do want to make some changes to your champ pool, practice (spam) them in normals to make sure you can play them to a sufficient level.

It appears you like to play Veigar and as someone that plays Veigar a lot I'd like to give some specific tips. First, I'd watch pros play him recently, in worlds. You honestly can't play Ignite on veigar. He doesn't have early cheese potential unless your opponent really missteps. Teleport is much better for global pressure and getting back to lane and getting a cs advantage. Tear is good in some situations, like vs talon or zed, where you need the mana but then need to rush right into zhonyas so they don't scale, and I do that too. But in an AP matchup, chalice is much better, and here's why. An item that gives Mana regen, a double down on your passive, mana when you get a kill or assist (to get more), AP, and CDR. This is really really valueable. There's nothing that quite compares for this on Veigar. Morellos is fine, but the grevious wounds passive just isn't quite as good because you're bursting, not sustaining, and you have enough AP anyways. Build wise, looks fine, I don't know what you were building into on your last games since you didn't get there, but mana crystal and amp tome look like lich bane, which isn't good... Veigar is ranged enough to want just flat pen or AP, not lich bane because going into auto range with him is really unsafe.

Overall knowledge is really helpful, being able to know what to build when is important in learning a Champion and the game in general, as is theory crafting, and spending time just learning instead of focusing always on playing. Carrying on some of the champions you play is not impossible. Small early gold leads are very easy to turn and snowball for your whole team, not just you. The last piece of advice I want to give is to not cheap yourself out of things you need. Upgrade trinket every game. No exceptions. Unless you surrender at 20, even then, you shouldn't really surrender in ranked unless it's absolutely a stomp. Similarly, don't cheap yourself out on runes. AP quints and Armor yellows are standard, hybrid penetration marks need to go for Magic Pen marks, and CDR Blues are much more cost efficent than AP blues with regards to AP as well, especially getting 40% CDR on mages makes them very good for carrying. AS quints over gimmicky Life Steal quints is also a better choice.

Hope this helps, I feel as though I've improved quite a bit and wanted to help you out. Probably turned out a little on the long side, but oh well.

DeloricVI1 votes

Thanks for all the advice. I did recently start switching things around; I usually go boots and pots because most mids have skillshots these days and mobility is good because Veigar doesn't have any type of dash or movespeed buffs in his kit... but then I got doran's ring. I was avoiding it because it's a pretty small boost that I'm probably going to sell later, but the real reason I didn't get it before was because I was just going to sell it later anyway.... I never realized how good the mana refund on last hitting could be for Veigar.

Also, for lich bane, I usually buy it late in the game to try and take objectives when other players won't; a tower goes down a lot faster if you've got 1050+ AP kicking around and a lich bane. Would you recommend something else instead of it? I know there's void staff (my builds do have a distinctive lack of spell pen, which I'm trying to remedy), and there are definitely plenty of other options that could give me CDR or spread out my damage... but most of the time I use this to just apply my ap burst to taking objectives... is this bad? It SEEMS good, but a lot of things SEEM good in bronze... Tank Jungle Akali anyone?

Spud4You1 votes

Veigar even with lich bane shouldn't be needing to split push if he can win constant teamfights with his team and siege towers, that's his strongest attributes, not pushing. But you really should try out something a little better in terms of builds, but try out different builds in normals, it's not like you're going to be making some miraculous climb to silver this season, so its better to improve. I pack TP and will go Dorans Ring then get about 1100 gold, which is for me around level 6-7, so I can get my chalice, pink ward, and green/pots. Getting a pink ward in the bush behind your buff on your side gives vision of the river on that side preemptively so you can see certain stronger gankers and make your life a lot safer for an immobile mage and you can also put your regular trinket in the other side until you upgrade it. Also, in terms of laning presence, lean towards the side with the pink when your trinket is on cooldown, to be safer.

In terms of final build, I always start dorans and 2 health pots, simply put, you have enough mana issues with stacking early even with your passive that the dorans ring is a must. Then I get the chalice like I said, into item 3174 > then either item 3089 , item 3157 , or item 3285 next. Ludens if you want an earlier power spike, as rabadons costs a little more, and the move speed/passive for clearing waves and positioning. Zhonyas will help against AD assassins and other impending engage dangers. But what you get most frequently is a Rabadons, giving the 35% bonus, which is strong with veigar's Q. I always finish those 3 core items with chalice, and make sure to get item 3135 and of course at some point item 3020 . You shouldn't ever have issues with getting hit by skillshots if you're where you should be in lane getting shoved in and abusing your q range.

As I said, CDR blues, masteries, and chalice gives you 40%. It's stronger than basically every other option. You have flexibility in order for sure, but final build this is likely one of the best if not the best. I highly suggest trying it out. Pushing for an Inner Turret when you think your team holds off on their own mid Inner turret is obviously attractive, but it's very easy for them to dive your team and lose with a high damage source like veigar gone. You have to group up, win fights, THEN push unless you're a split push champ and have TP.

That's all I have to say right now. If you have anything else to ask, go for it.

DeloricVI1 votes

Yeah, I usually do that trick with the pink ward! I have other mids do it when I'm against a stealth champion like Rengar or Evelyn... you know, so they don't get destroyed by a surprise attack. At least, as long as we're talking about the same warding spot.

As for the items in lane, I switched because very few champions deal tons of damage off their skill shots... that or their skill shots aren't that hard to dodge without boots. I think I'm going to keep getting Doran's Ring after testing it out more.

I see what you're saying about runes; most of the time the boost you get from any kind of AP blues is pretty small compared to how many stacks you can get from great farming on Veigar... cdr would probably be a lot better on him.

For now I'll start testing things out. Thanks for all the advice!

Malaborath1 votes

You were tilted. this happened to me too, as you can see from my op.gg (https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Malaborath), you need to take a break. As do I.

pxst1 votes

I don't quite understand why low elo players tend to build full ap supports tho but I can tell you it is easily fall behind because supports is lack of gold unless you totally destroy enemy bot taking a lot of kills which don't quite happen all the time , better buy sightstone because warding is very important , upgrade your trinket to red or blue , vision helps win games although it will not boost your damage . Vision helps prevent ganks and death. Support always forcus on helping the whole team , bronze usually only have one fed players and they eventually lose cause the money is all on one guy if he dies , the whole team want down. check out my match history and builds on lulu and janna support. Check out some youtube videos as there a lot of video were very useful even when you get gold , how to freeze lane , rotations , objectives. trading , roaming , split pushing , teamcomps were all part of the crucial things helps you win games. Also never rage on teamates , treat them like friends. Look optimistic so you don't get a lot of pressure. btw freelo.gg saids my worse part is dealing damage I was like fuck you man how i suppose deal damage with a sup janna or utility sup got almost 0 ap :P , i only give heal and give utility

Th3 Professor1 votes

I personally think it's my team's fault.

Main Problem right there I think. I'm only S3 but honestly putting the blame on your team is what kept me from rising from B5 for like 6 months. As soon as I started saying, "ok they are going to do their thing, how can I improve," the climb went much faster.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Hey man. I'm in Silver V but I am there because my mechanics are not great, not my knowledge of the team. Basically, I generally know what needs to be done, I just struggle in game to do so. Anyway, I looked through your Match History, I have some thoughts for you. My notes got a little long because I'm real wordy sometimes but I would love to share them and see if they help. The feedback generally revolves around game sense, warding and build paths just so you know.

DeloricVI1 votes

Ok, I'm all ears. Even though everyone's been nothing but helpful, everyone's had something helpful and unique to say. :)

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Is there way to a direct message on here?

DeloricVI1 votes

Unfortunately, I don't think so. I don't mind reading a bunch of back-to-back comments though.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Alright then...sounds good. I'll start with your mid play. Some of the biggest reasons why it looks like you aren't able to carry games from mid, in my opinion, would be a lack of roaming plays, build order and wards.

Roaming wise, I looked at a bunch of your losses on Veigar. I totally get that as a control mage, it is hard to make roaming plays but in todays meta, mid laners really need to find time to roam bot and help steamroll your ADC. While Veigar is still a control mage, he is good at clearing waves fast and pushing to the tower to allow some time for the roam.

As far as build order goes, I notice that you rush Rabadon's Death Cap in pretty much every game. I get that it is an important item on Veigar and, to be fair, I have never played Veigar. However, especially for control mages that want to sit in lane and farm and poke out your lane opponent, some form of sustain is needed. I play some Azir (very badly I will say) my first item is usually Athene's Unholy Grail or Morellonomicon (depending on my lane opponent.) Both of them offer better statistics for the laning phase that help to boost my chances to steam rolling my lane. Not only are the stats better for the laning phase but, quite frankly, those items are a lot cheaper than RDC. RDC is a very hard item to rush during the laning phase because by the time you have most of it completed, your opponent will have likely finished a full item. That full item power spike grants an opportunity for aggression from your opponent. I didn't look too thorough at it but I imagine many of your lane opponents rushed something other than Rabadons and about the time they finished they first item was when the game opened up and your team began falling behind.

For wards, I think you should get into the habit of utilizing your trinket ward more. I joke about this when I play support (I play full vision support) but I often after getting a pick or winning a skirmish based team fight will put #visionOP in all chat as a joke. However, it is sort of serious. Vision is OP, especially on a champ like Veigar who can set up picks so strongly with his Event Horizon. I would say that, for now, there are two thing you should be in the habit of doing; upgrading your trinket with the Stealth Ward upgrade every game and placing a ward as soon as your trinket comes off cooldown. Long term, that is not the most practical solution because you really want to have vision in specific places but if you get into the habit of using it on cooldown, then when the time comes to ward strategically, you won't have to think about it as much and it will just be second nature. Further, by just warding a lot, you start to learn where are good places to ward and where are somewhat worse places to ward. The major takeaway, at least with trinket wards, is that there is no ward that is a bad ward. Every ward is good and the more wards you place per game, the more likelihood of winning.

More from Tips & Tricks

More by DeloricVI