Soraka and sight stone. Convince me !

iluvalar·Oct 14, 2014·2 votes·1,485 views

So I pay for 400g of health but since I plan to use my regen/starcall/potions properly, I plan to use about 15 heals per back. Which will cost me 150% of that health. So at the end of the day, the sightstone worth -200g of stats because it hinder my regeneration more then it help.

Another way to look at this. Each time I heal with the sightstone, it cost me 15HP. which is about 3.5g worth of potion. Not much but it stack up each time I cast heal until the end of the game.

Don't get mad at me, I know the wards cost more money still and eventualy it will worth it. But where on a normal support it's a 10 mnutes investment, on Soraka it takes up to 25 minutes before you break EVEN with the sightstone.

Comparatively, if I buy a blasting wand now, I'll produce about 5.5gp worth in HP everytime i'll heal and about 6gp each time i'll hit starcall. Assuming I use perfectly the 3 wards it would take about 6 backs to compensate that. And this still disregard the eclipse, wish and starcall damage (and I'm not saying a blasting wand is even a decent choice on soraka) . It would take the entire game length just to break even. At this point, the sightstone is not even slot efficient anymore...

tl;dr : The extra hp on the sightstone make soraka pay more for each heal she do. It will take 40 minutes of game before she START to see the benefit from the sightstone.

Am I missing something, Can't I just buy wards when needed instead ? Better yet... couldn't her teamates who saves a ton of gold in potions could buy a few wards once in a while with that extra gold ?

16 Comments

OhBoyItsaMegamanOct 16, 20143 votes

You raise an interesting point and you've done your homework backing it up with math. But here is the point that I believe you missed.

You are confusing the value of health with the value of max health, and you're forgetting that max health gives you more health.

A Ruby Crystal costs 400g and raises your max health by +150, increasing the health cost of Astral Infusion by 15. After casting W 15 times, you will lose 225 more health than you would have without that Ruby Crystal. But your max health is not literally decreased by 225, so put that "-200g" value tag away. All that's happening is that you've lost 225 more health than you would have lost otherwise, and you're arriving in lane with a 150 health head start over the Soraka who didn't buy a Ruby Crystal. In reality, you're only 75 health lower than you would be otherwise—half a potion. 17.5 gold.

In conclusion, if you use W 15 times between recalls, and buy a 35g health potion every other shopping trip, you've fully offset the negative component of having a Ruby Crystal on Soraka. While still realizing all of the normal benefits of having +150 max health. (And of course, the normal benefits of having a Sightstone instead of wards.)

The negative impact of extra max health is further diminished by the fact that hitting max health "resets the counter", so to speak. Imagine that you and I are each playing separate games at the same time, and we're both playing Soraka with 800 health but I've bought a Ruby Crystal to bring me up to 950 and you haven't. Shortly after arriving to lane, we both cast W twice. It costs you 160 health leaving you with 640/800, and costs me 190 health leaving me with 760/950. "Ah ha," you think. "Only 8 more casts each, and the benefit of your Ruby Crystal will be gone. Every cast after that puts me in the lead healthwise." But then the opponent isn't able to harass either of us. Through a few Starcalls and natural regen, we both reach max health. You reach it first because you're missing less health, but I also max out. The counter is now reset. We will both need to cast another 10 Ws starting from this point before you can justify your low-health build. To put it another way, the only way I even fall behind enough to need half a potion per recall is if I don't get back to max health at any point while I'm hanging out in the lane.

iluvalarOct 16, 20141 votes

interesting comment. But I still disagree. A large part of soraka kit is now the starcall heal and furthermore the hp5 you build on her to increase even more her heal capacity. If you sit on max health you lose all of that. As soraka, I avoid that situation as much as possible. I heal, I trade hell I will even heal a minion if that's the only option I have. I won't stay at max health at all because it would be a 30% nerf of my capacities.

You are right that if we look at it in term of potions instead of max heatlh. It become slightly better. But you don't just want to cancel the bad effect of the ruby, you also want to sustain the base hp it gives othewise you'll have to consider that the sightstone is the full 800gp price and you'll need twice as much back to become even in cost. So to sustain the base ruby, you need to buy 2 extra potions per back. This mean that you lose 1 ward per back. In the best scenario, you'll still need 3 backs instead of 2 to pay for the sightstone. (assuming you use 3 wards per back and that you can place them at optimal position without any opportunity cost which is never really the case).

Even in that best case, that 400gp invested in the sighstone still lose 33% of his efficiency. If it was that op, most champions would build one every game. But it's not. It's just slightly convenient for support. The base 10 minutes of investement it take is already pretty huge, on raka it increase to 15 minutes (at best) and sincerly at that point it's not better then an avarice blade.

I never heard of anyone arguing that the avarice blade is a mandatory item for every supports. Even if it pay 1 ward every 2 minutes.

OhBoyItsaMegamanOct 17, 20141 votes

If you sit on max health you lose all of that. As soraka, I avoid that situation as much as possible. I heal, I trade hell I will even heal a minion if that's the only option I have.

Avoiding remaining at max health with Soraka makes sense. Avoiding it at any cost would be artificially engineering a scenario that justifies your build. It's as though we were having an argument about the value of CDR on Annie, and in order to reach your quota of stuns, you started saying that you use your stun whenever it's available even if it means stunning a minion.

You are right that if we look at it in term of potions instead of max heatlh. It become slightly better. But you don't just want to cancel the bad effect of the ruby, you also want to sustain the base hp it gives othewise you'll have to consider that the sightstone is the full 800gp price and you'll need twice as much back to become even in cost.

This is true, which is why I wrote "While still realizing all of the normal benefits of having +150 max health." Return to the scenario where you and I are sitting next to each other and each playing Soraka, we've each used W twice, and I have a Ruby Crystal that you don't. Thresh lands a Death Sentence just as the enemy Vi comes in to gank (in both games). You currently have 640 health, I currently have 760. The extra hp that may allow me to escape while you die, granting the enemy 300g + 150g for the assists. That's factored into the value of a Ruby Crystal. I have more max health. That helps me not die.

Now, in that scenario, I unfairly had a Ruby Crystal while you had nothing. You might have bought an Amp Tome or a Cloth Armor or something else that's helping you. But that scenario is meant to demonstrate that the Ruby Crystal is not a straight-up drawback. It has worth on every champion who doesn't want to die, and on Soraka it has a minor drawback that offsets a tiny portion of that worth.

So to sustain the base ruby, you need to buy 2 extra potions per back.

I'm not sure where 2 extra potions per back came from...

This mean that you lose 1 ward per back. In the best scenario, you'll still need 3 backs instead of 2 to pay for the sightstone. (assuming you use 3 wards per back and that you can place them at optimal position without any opportunity cost which is never really the case).

You're starting to lose me here. If we accept that you offset the benefit of 1 free ward every time you recall (because you're buying potions so that the +150 health is completely not a drawback at all, allowing you to claim "+150 max health is 400g worth of stats" guilt-free), the Sightstone still pays for itself after 3 recalls. A ward-generating machine that becomes efficient so quickly is well worth the purchase.

I never heard of anyone arguing that the avarice blade is a mandatory item for every supports. Even if it pay 1 ward every 2 minutes.

Avarice Blade isn't free though. It costs 800g, while providing stats that have no practical worth to a champion that doesn't help the team by dealing damage through autoattacks. 3g/10 seconds = 1 free ward every 4 minutes (not 2), so it takes the length of an entire game for that item to pay for 11 wards and justify its purchase.

And here's where I get to be just a teensy bit mean. I checked out your history because I was wondering if you were level 30 yet. I see that you are, and I see that you just play support Soraka in Team Builder. I also see that you buy no more than ONE WARD per game, and frequently buy NO WARDS AT ALL. If you were serious about saying "It's better to buy wards instead of a Sightstone because the extra health hurts you," I would expect to see you actually buying wards. To play that many support games and use only your trinket for vision suggests that you have no idea just how important wards are. Even if you completely convinced me that the +150 health Sightstone gives Soraka is worth -200g instead of 400g, I would still buy it because I know it will easily give me 1000g worth of wards before the end of an average game.

iluvalarOct 17, 20141 votes

But that scenario is meant to demonstrate that the Ruby Crystal is not a straight-up drawback. It has worth on every champion who doesn't want to die, and on Soraka it has a minor drawback that offsets a tiny portion of that worth.

So to sustain the base ruby, you need to buy 2 extra potions per back.

I'm not sure where 2 extra potions per back came from...

Imagine you already used the 10th heal before you get attacked by this Tresh. Now you have no health advantage at all. I still have my cloth armor, but you are down to nothing unless you already drink a potion to refill the ruby. That's where the second potion come from.

the Sightstone still pays for itself after 3 recalls. A ward-generating machine that becomes efficient so quickly is well worth the purchase.

"So quickly". We are talking about 15 minutes during which you invest 400gp and obtain nothing. In comparison that cloth armor could instantly buff me by about 10%. It's still 15 minutes during which I'm 10% weaker.. Doesn't sound good to me.

Again, I think if the sightstone could take an extra 5 more minutes before it become efficient, there would be no excuse for any mid player to buy it as well.

To play that many support games and use only your trinket for vision suggests that you have no idea just how important wards are.

All right, that's probably a weak point of mine. I guess I can try the sighstone at least one more time... :)

iluvalarOct 17, 20141 votes

All right, that's probably a weak point of mine. I guess I can try the sighstone at least one more time... :)

So I did. And omg it was worst then I tought. First thing the 3 wards is a lie !! I place one near dragon and the other one in that isolated bush closer to mid and then what ? I'm supposed to be a support and heal peoples not roaming across the map and miss my experience. I lose much more by roaming around like a fool that I'd do by just dropping a ward in the river and returning to my position. At the end of the day I CAN place 3 wards but it doesn't mean I'll find 3 good use of them each time. It's more 2.5 maybe even 2 wards by back then really a full 3. It make it even worst to lose 1 wards in gold having to buy potions just to patch the ruby effect...

Secondly, I got in a teamfight where I ended up oddly half health and no mana and I had to back. And I know exactly why : I had 2 fairy charms instead of a chalice and a cloth armor because of that missing 800g. Doesn't really matter if in 15 minutes I will save some gold. The problem is RIGHT NOW I am so weak I have to back... I lost a tower and a teamate to that teamfight.

Finaly, it's 2 extra slots. 1 for the sightstone and 1 for the potions. You guys could argue that I'd still need a slot for potions and wards. But no, around level 10 I stop buying potions normaly and I'd consider skipping even the wards if I had 1k gold. This is precisely the position where I was. I had 1k gp and no more empty slots to buy anything. Had to leave the shop with that gold in my pocket and it's pretty frustrating. Note that at that point, I had no potions left as well, the the ruby start to bleed on me pretty fast. I simply don't have yet another slot to spare for potions around level 10.

OhBoyItsaMegamanOct 19, 20141 votes

How long are your laning phases? Around the point where 2 or 3 towers (on either side) are down, the laning phase breaks down. At that point you are no longer married to bot lane and neither you nor the ADC should be focusing on that particular lane more than other lanes. You should be warding in and around bot lane while you're in it, but sometime between 10:00 and 20:00 you're inevitably going to need to ward all around the map instead of just one lane.

Don't forget that warding the bushes in the lane is also important and can make a big difference.

Around level 10 you can stop buying potions either way. I feel as though you are drastically overestimating the supposed negative impact of +15 health cost on one of your spells. I can't back this up with personal experience because I haven't played new Raka, but it seems impossible that you would feel this difference. Let's take the example out to the extreme: you've been out in the field without backing for a long time, long enough for 30 Ws. The Sightstone gives you +150 health and +450 cost for those, meaning you're 300 health lower than you would be otherwise. If you've been out of base for that long, you're really gonna look at your health and say "It's this low because of the Sightstone"? Not because you got hit with a single extra Bouncing Bomb from Ziggs? Or Mantra Q from Karma? Or a crit Gangplank Q? The little health cost thing stacks up but even after it's applied so many times the cumulative effect still ends up being only as strong as ONE strong poke ability.

I guess I can try the sighstone at least one more time... :) So I did. And omg it was worst then I thought.

From this recent post I feel like this is less a conversation about Soraka's health and more about support stats in general. I don't see a recent game in your history where you tried buying a Sightstone (...or wards in general), so perhaps you played that game on another account. But in any case, your typical support Soraka build is focused so hard on padding your own stats. There are two other GLARING problems that I did not notice last time I looked: You almost never upgrade your support item to Talisman/Frost Queen, and you NEVER buy boots! I can hear your objections already. The other items you rush— item 3174 , item 3102 , item 3075 , item 3157 —give utility that helps you and more defensive stats which raises the effectiveness of your self-heals and allows you to survive dangerous situations to keep healing. What you're failing to understand is that that does not help you win. Your team needs someone who is planting wards and clearing enemy wards. They need someone who can catch someone out with Frost Queen's Claim active, or initiate a teamfight or enable an escape by activating Talisman. They need a Crucible on the team to keep the ADC from being locked down. The benefit from having these things far, far, far outweighs having a 5th champion who spends all game scraping together gold for items that only help themselves.

Even the iconic "healer" support is not valuable because of her healing. She is valuable because she can heal without spending a ton of money on items. A Soraka with just item 2049 , item 3117 , item 3222 , item 3069 , and item 3364 is worth more to the team than your full build Soraka by an unimaginable amount, for a fraction of the cost. I can't fully explain how that is, it's just something you have to see in action to understand.

God Mode EnabledOct 19, 20143 votes

any support not buying sightstone regardless of the champ and build should be shot in the face

CrispCrustaceanOct 15, 20142 votes

Vision wins games- the amount of wards you will have to buy(Plus the item slot you need to keep them on hand) is well worth more than 200g along with the gold you don't loose from suffering from ganks and loosing dragon

LightBaeOct 16, 20142 votes

I think a lot of this soraka math only makes sense in lane. In mid-late game skirmishes, you are at a disadvantage where your are lower health and taking larger chunks of health (essentially, scaling true damage against yourself). Soraka is simply more efficient with a GA's (deters initial focusing), resistances and as much AP as she can possibly get to scale her heals. Not sure if it matters at the end of the day whether or not you have a sightstone- unless the cost of wards outscales her ability to buy more important stats.

RadiantWingsOct 14, 20141 votes

It keeps you from being spiked easily. You're screwed if you get all-inned as a squishy support. Ignite Leona for example preps all her needed spells so she isn't affected by your self targeted silence and initiates with her ult.

Also, on demand wards allow your team to play more aggressively once dragon fights start up

iluvalarOct 15, 20141 votes

a cloth armor would have somewhat the same effect. (a bit less on purchase and a bit better as your max hp goes up). And it only cost 300 gold

12talesOct 15, 20141 votes

tl;dr : The extra hp on the sightstone make soraka pay more for each heal she do. It will take 40 minutes of game before she START to see the benefit from the sightstone.

After every heal, a Soraka with Sighstone will have more HP than a Soraka with Blasting Wand. It functions as a percentile increase to HP at any point in the series of heals. You will never have less health with Sighstone than without it.

You'll see the benefit of Sighstone immediately on purchase. And you will see the downside of not purchasing it in the match history screen, when it turns out that the enemy Support placed twice as many wards as you.

iluvalarOct 15, 20141 votes

After the 10th heal, the situation reverse. The efficiency of the ruby is 0% and still go down by 10% each time you cast heal. WIth your base regen and an ancient coin, you can easily cast 10 extra heals in 5 minutes. At that point the ruby became an anti-ruby and cost you 150 of you maximum hp.

MasticatingGrillOct 17, 20141 votes

I hardly ever buy a sightstone as support. Usually mid and jg are warding and calling missing pretty well. I have a trinket, the ADC has a trinket. We do not over extend and we do not feed.

If we get a bad ADC, you can buy wards and issue pings and they'll still go too far. And at least one of the two of you will die. And they will swear at you in chat. More often I would rather have Twin Shadows on my AP support before I would ever build a Sightstone, period. RUBY sightstone, don't even get me started on that useless gold pit. It should give a GP10 per active ward.

I agree with a GA on the bondage vampire tho, it's even more compelling than it used to be as a tank item.

Done25Oct 19, 20141 votes

Ruby Sightstone is a newbie trap on Soraka. Given how far back she stands in a team.fight you should never be getting hit. And if Talon flash jumps to get at you, that puny Ruby isn't going to do anything to save you anyways.

Instead, AP lets you squeeze more juice out of your heals and makes your Q heal you for more. Which means you can use W more often. Not to mention, a 600 AP R can win entire team fights on its own when you sudden give Tristana 1000 hp from.across the map!

iluvalarOct 23, 20141 votes

So you didnt tried the new raka, you think 300hp is irrelevant and you seem the kind who think I'm gonna explode if I don't place a ward quota on my support...

All this tend to convince me I can't have a rational conversation with you anyway.

You'll be happy to learn that I tested the quill coat on my support just now. seem like a better source of ward to me. 1 ward per 180 seconds for 300gp without the ruby negative effect. I'll try it when my ADC stay healthy and i can't heal him. Maybe I could clear a few wolf camps...