Remove most of the RNG out of teamfight TACTICS!

devotephere·Aug 4, 2019·9 votes·1,585 views

Rng in a gamemode that is simply normal is fine. But when it has ranked mode in it, well rng is just stupid.

Let's take chess. Chess is one of the oldest and most popular games that has ranked option in it. Think if Chess would have rng? At the start of the game GM Magnus Carlsen would instead of queen and rooks get pawns in their place. Now GM Ben Finegold who is a VCERY GOOD professional player also but nowhere close to the skill of Magnus Carlsen, gets instead of rooks and queen, 3 queens. Now there is not much Carlsen can do in this situation because the lead is so overwhelming in this level player make very few mistakes.

Now let's take another popular game with ranked mode. League of Legends Summoner Rift 5v5

Think about starting the game. You get double gold at start, What fun you have 1000 gold to spend GREAT. Then you walk to the lane and see your opponent. He has lvl 11 champion with IE, RFC and statikk shiv to start with. It soon comes clear to you that you have no chance unless the player is WAY below your skill lvl. However matchmaking should find players matching your skill level so it's not to be expected.

Now to TFT After first 3 you might only get 8 gold when another player might get starter item + 5 items. That means 3 full items for the other player. He doesn't have to use gold to buy xp or refresh because he is set with items so he can just save for lategame and buy champs when rng gives them to him. While the other player has to pressure about keeping up with the guy with loads of items.

The champion store might have favored the same player with enough of the same champions to have 1 or even 2 tier 2 champions meanwhile the store has given you totally mixed pool of champions and you don't even have one tier 2 champion.

How to fix this?

Complete removal of RNG would be best option in my opinion. Adding more champions and items to the game mode will make lot's of different compilations possible giving diversity to the game, the real and fun kind of diversity that keeps players returning year after year. Every round gives gold based on same factors they do now. Only there is completely open Item shop and completely open champion shop. The amount of champions and items cost is obviously increased based on the power of the item and champion. The cost of both champions and items could go up the more people buy them. For example if elise costs 1 gold and it's been bought for example 3 times the cost goes up to 2 after it's been bought 6 times it goes to 3 etc. This makes the game PURELY skill based.

If the rng must stay. Then the effect of it should be reduced.

After every neutral camp every player gets to choose from let's say 3 different items or gold. This makes sure everyone gets the same amount of items or gold worth the items. The amount of gold given should be increased to match the value of 1 item. 1 or 2 or 4 gold doesn't match the value of 1 item. Dragon and Elder dragon should still give 1 full item or a shitload of gold but still you could choose what to pick. This makes luck still a small factor but gives a lot more control to the player himself.

The champion store should be either increased to 10 or the cost of refresh reduced to 1 if it must remain to work as it is. Right now you can easily use 40 gold to refreshes and not get the champion you are looking for even if nobody else is building that champion. Meanwhile someone get's lvl 3 champions at round 2-4 (that's the 7th round) or earlier.

And It doesn't matter if you are the lucky one, while it's obviously more fun to be over powered than under powered but for me a good game is one that challenges your mind instead of challenging your luck.

Right now these things are luck based

Item amount dropped Items dropped Champions in store Champions in common pool Matchups against other players Synergies that are based on % chance Items that are based on % chance

Am I really alone thinking there is a few too many dice rolls for the game to be ACTUALLY tactical and skill based? Especially when you go to higher levels

Here's my five cents

26 Comments

devotephereAug 4, 20193 votes

For me, I think having so much rng in the game equals lazy game design

the blue blurrAug 4, 20192 votes

and yet games like hearthstone exist...if you don't like it don't play it

devotephereAug 7, 20192 votes

Well there is a reason Heartstone isn't as popular as League for example. Nobody cares to see who is the luckiest, everyone wants to know who is the best.

TFT Has the potential to be skill based with if it's a must still some RNG entached but right now it's plain pointless regarding some issues like item amount dropped.

the blue blurrAug 9, 20191 votes

i never said anything about what everyone wants to know...and i agree TFT has more skill then hearthstone..my only point was to prove there are luck based games out there that are very enjoyable and are NOT lazy game design..just because you don't like something doesn't mean some1 else wouldn't..

rng has been around since the very beginning in arcades and snes games and even into newer generations of games..despite this you would call it lazy?...you remind me of people who like to be spoon fed a Garen tee because you can't handle something unpredictable..

oh and im good at downvoting your stuff too...does that bother you?...it doesn't me lol

oh and just to name quite a few..heres an examples of games that have some fairly heavy rng that many people play

pokemon yugioh casino games like slots poker (especially online ones) craps literally every family board game out there hearthstone diablo 3 freaking world of warcraft...rng is heavily present in many different games out there..and usually has a huge impact on success in those games..or how long it can take you to actually succeed...pro pokemon games..where one miss or crit or lucky status effect can decide the whole game diablo 3..where primal rng can decide wether your character can clear greater rifts of higher level or not before the season ends.. world of warcraft..where getting that lucky crit in arena allows u to one shot an enemy or at least delete 75% of his hp yugioh..where one coin flip one dice roll and one card can decide a whole game most of the things i listed have tournaments for them and many people who attend them...

and lets not forget having too many characters get permadeath because of that lucky 1% crit in fire emblem

literally any speedrunner can tell you how many resets have happened cause of rng lol

there are plenty of games where one can consider a game to have way too much rng..the point is its not lazy game design because of heavy rng or heavy rng moments

Orion69Aug 4, 20192 votes

You are the vocal minority, but not alone. Honestly, I agree with 2 points of your RNG. Items should always drop equally and Matchups should place you against other people as often as possible. Also, they should destroy Cursed blade and change it to wits end which should build a stacking MR buff or shield or something. It's dumb that you can go through all that effort (and possibly gold) getting 3 stars to have it reduced to 0 because someone got 2 items.

However, everything else is fine. Also, your analogy is incorrect. Let's relate gold to levels and that would be more accurate. So, when you go to lane, you might be facing an RFC/IE champ that's level 1, but also, you're level 6. That's a more fair analogy of how gold vs. items work in this game. You see plenty of games (as people have pointed out) that are both competitive and have RNG elements, like Poker. If they changed the previous 2 things I mentioned (equal items and differentiated matchups), it would be good. However, with the unequal items, it's like playing poker with 3 cards instead of 5. You're just not gonna win unless you maybe get 3 of a kind.

devotephereAug 6, 20191 votes

{quoted}

However, everything else is fine. Also, your analogy is incorrect. Let's relate gold to levels and that would be more accurate. So, when you go to lane, you might be facing an RFC/IE champ that's level 1, but also, you're level 6. That's a more fair analogy of how gold vs. items work in this game. You see plenty of games (as people have pointed out) that are both competitive and have RNG elements, like Poker. If they changed the previous 2 things I mentioned (equal items and differentiated matchups), it would be good. However, with the unequal items, it's like playing poker with 3 cards instead of 5. You're just not gonna win unless you maybe get 3 of a kind.

I was talking about having tier 2 champion vs tier 1 champion as in levels go

Orion69Aug 6, 20191 votes

Well, having a tier 2 champion would also be more accessible to someone with gold over items (since leveling up increases your chances at higher level champs).

devotephereAug 6, 20191 votes

You would think that is the case. It rarely however is. People with more items usually get better tier champions faster and they don't need to spend gold to refresh. This is based on my experience over the game mode.

Orion69Aug 6, 20191 votes

People with more items are only getting better tier champs if they are on win streaks and only spending gold at Key points to level up. On the flip side, you get loss streaks (to counter their win streaks) and you started with more gold. Meaning, you'll be leveling up quicker with more gold to buy higher tier champs. Thus, turning the mid-game in your favor. Not to mention probably 2 early carousel picks.

0megonAug 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

People with more items are only getting better tier champs if they are on win streaks and only spending gold at Key points to level up. On the flip side, you get loss streaks (to counter their win streaks) and you started with more gold. Meaning, you'll be leveling up quicker with more gold to buy higher tier champs. Thus, turning the mid-game in your favor. Not to mention probably 2 early carousel picks.

8 gold makes difference, but 1 or 3 gold is amount that does not really push you anywhere in terms of economy. Also plenty of times I can start my economy and just stomp my oponents through my items and people who did not get lucky with items have to spend gold to get on my powerlevel through leveling or upgrading their pieces so in the end either their economy or their lifetotal takes huge hit. And unless you really try to throw for loss streak it is really hard to keep loosing as you might just meet someone who is weaker than you and defeat him accidentaly, on the other hand if you highroll items you can make sure you can beat almost everyone.

Orion69Aug 7, 20191 votes

I get it, the 1 or 3 gold sucks. And I've been on both sides of it too. Yes, you're working at a disadvantage, but the goal is top 4, you can still hit top 4 from behind. That being said, I agree with everyone, lol. I think item drops should be equal amongst everyone. But they should remain random. But then people will complain that because someone got a shiv and they only got a frozen heart, that's why they lost, etc. etc. People will always find a way to complain and make excuses for why they "can't win".

devotephereAug 7, 20191 votes

Yeah but loss streaks don't give equal amounts of gold and you still lose valuable hp. You do get the draft picks but still the player with more items can also lose on purpose and get those drafts meanwhile getting better champions without refresing just not using them on battle till the time is right.

As I think I said in original post. I would be completely happy if the refresh cost would be half or the champ store twice as big. And what comes to items every neutral camp you win shows you three items and you can pick one of them. Right now I Constantly find myself in situation that I don't get the champs i need for the synergies or build even if nobody else is building them.

Orion69Aug 7, 20191 votes

Loss streaks do now. They recently changed it to be in line with win streaks. However, not losing HP is always better than losing HP, so if someone has a strong hand, it's more beneficial for them to win streak and get last on the carousel. Losing on purpose wouldn't benefit them much (since apparently they already have all the items they want). Refresh being half would make refreshing negligible. I hate donkey rolling and that's all that 1g refresh cost would promote. Not sure why the champ store should be twice as big either? It won't change anything. Since others will also be twice as big also, your pool will be lower and rerolling much riskier. And honestly, RNG is part of what makes this game fun. Choosing your items is just gonna make everything stagnant. You'll see everyone getting the same items if they can, and if they can't, they're going to go on league forums and say, "We need to get rid of this RNG, someone won because they could build a shiv, but I could only get a Frozen Heart". Yes, RNG can be wild sometimes, but everyone is playing with the same RNG over time, so winning/losing or being stuck in an elo can't be blamed on RNG.

devotephereAug 8, 20191 votes

This debate is becoming distasteful since you are now almost putting words into my mouth.

First of all I never said they have all the items they need since you never have all the items you need/want.

In addition you are horribly wrong with your argument. Losing on purpose even if you have strong comp is beneficial since you get the losing streak gold at start but don't lose as much hp at beginning of the game as in lategame. Thus ensuring that you get even more powerful via the first pick from the common draft either item or champion that suits your needs and more important denying your opponents of op picks.

In the last statement you are painting me as a whiner who just don't know how the game works. That's not the case but I can see that you can't keep the debate clean anymore so I suggest not going on further. Let's just agree that you think game of minds is boring and I think that games based on luck are boring. You don't trust the game mode has enough to offer to be skill based after balancing and I do.

Orion69Aug 15, 20191 votes

I never attacked you... Not sure what you mean about this debate becoming distasteful. I never insulted you or anything. Your second sentence is a misunderstanding of what I said. I never said you said that. It's just my opinion on what someone on a winstreak will have available. If they are winstreaking, they won't need the items nor champs, which is why they are winstreaking.

Like I said before, while losing HP isn't as bad as it used to be, it's still better NOT to lose HP. And since you have a strong item/champ combination already, having more HP > the one item you might get. I'm not saying lose streaking is bad. I sometimes lose streak on purpose if I have a weak team, but I'll never do it with a strong team.

And while I've kept this debate clean the whole time, your comment, " you think game of minds is boring" is an vague insult. I'm still not going to insult your understanding of the game at gold rank, but I think this game has a good balance of luck and skill. Too much of one or the other would make it boring. If you're one of those people that has a lot of fun playing chess, then yes, you'd prefer your changes, however, if you're someone that thinks poker is more fun than chess, you'd prefer this game as it is.

devotephereAug 6, 20191 votes

{quoted} You see plenty of games (as people have pointed out) that are both competitive and have RNG elements, like Poker. If they changed the previous 2 things I mentioned (equal items and differentiated matchups), it would be good. However, with the unequal items, it's like playing poker with 3 cards instead of 5. You're just not gonna win unless you maybe get 3 of a kind.

Well poker can't be really compared. Since poker is pretty straight forward. Straight flush is the best possible hand to get. Here Yordles counter assassins and sorceres counter yordles etc. It's way more diverse and in this I think should be the diversity not by forced hands via rng. In addition poker has the element of bluff which makes it tactical. You have to be reading your opponent. In this game mode bluffing isn't an option since everything is visible for enemies.

Orion69Aug 6, 20191 votes

I agree. Poker isn't the best (but still decently good) analogy. And yes, you can bluff in Tft. Have your bench with champs you aren't planning to play, or to a lesser extent, stealing champs from opponents. Anyway, I agree with 2 points of your RNG, and one of them is being fixed next patch (opponent matchups). However, getting rid of all RNG is going to just make the game systemic and boring. If I wanted no RNG, I'd just play chess online.

To add to this, RNG for you is also RNG for everyone else. You'll still be in the same elo you're in now because with less RNG, your opponents also have less RNG. Getting rid of some RNG (opponents and item drop chance) is really just there for QoL changes. It will feel better when you don't lose to RNG. However, champ store, common pool (this isn't RNG based) is what makes the game fun. And personally, I'm not sure about synergies or not. I feel like the proc chance on all items and synergies is still too large.

devotephereAug 6, 20191 votes

Well here is where we disagree. I don't see that the game will get systematic because regular league isn't that. Where the fun in my mind comes is the combination of different items on different champs with different synergy comps. There is a lot of possibilities in the game already. The rng in my mind is just denying the possibility of exploring all of this that in my mind makes the game fun and diverse in a meaningful way. What comes to elo my other account is in plat II tft and other one is in iron. On the other one I had more luck.

Orion69Aug 6, 20191 votes

If it weren't for RNG, we'd just play the same OP comps every time and hope that we econ better. That's not good imo. I am also plat II (not having played in almost a week), but I came from Iron II. You're telling me you're plat and can't get out of iron? I've played some normals with a "Gold" friend of mine and I can clearly see the difference between Plat and Gold gameplay.

WoonStruckAug 6, 20192 votes

If you remove the RNG TFT just becomes flowchart metagaming.

The game is RNG at its core. There's no changing that.

The game will never be skill based. That's just not what the game is. Its all knowledge-based.

If they removed RNG it wouldn't be "AUTO-chess"

UndustasAug 4, 20191 votes

Not much rng tbh, the more I learn the game the less rng effects anything, especially losing.

0megonAug 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Not much rng tbh, the more I learn the game the less rng effects anything, especially losing.

But there could be less. I am fine with items even though I would be for making one item guaranteed each PvE round so if someone high rolls and you don't the difference would not be as huge as it is now. But there is still phantom which is random and good/bad phantom target might be the difference between winning and loosing, there is also TF. And now they want to add hextech which is random too and is their answer to the RNG drops so you have ,,counterplay" to RNG which did not really have to be there in first place. So they are adding a lot of randomness even in synergies and champions. They want to be innovative with their synergies and stuff but just because they can do something does not mean they should.

TailypoAug 7, 20191 votes

TFT wouldn't be a game without the RNG. Its gameplay is shallow af.

XinZhao2WinNhaoAug 7, 20191 votes

But the 9 gold start is actually great. I love getting 9 gold, not sarcastically. I can reroll for those early 2* and spend the rest of my gold into levelling so I can have a level 7 after Krugs and all 2* and 3* champs on the board. Even if the synergies aren't great I'll spend a lot of that time winning and getting extra gold to econ with, furthering my lead. I'll get items later on anyways.

The 3 gold + 1 item or the 1 gold + 2 items are the worst starts tbh.

Also it doesn't take Ben Finegold to beat Magnus Carlsen if MC had 3 pawns instead of queens and rooks and BF had 3 queens. Even I (1300 player) can win that.

DarkSoul1994Aug 7, 20191 votes

Am I the only one who doesn't have an issue with the RNG in TFT? I feel like it doesn't even matter. I think maybe 1 in 6 games I actually get screwed by item RNG but I hit Top 4 for my teamp comp anyway.