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LP Loss in TFT is causing too much frustration.

Ryan here··14 votes·5,243 views

I've played a lot of Teamfight Tactics ranked. Currently I'm on 242 ranked games and am in Diamond so I feel relatively qualified to talk about LP gains. Currently, the system feels terrible and has me thinking of stopping playing ranked completely as it's too frustrating to climb due to the huge LP losses.

Let's have a real world example of games.

I come 1st (39lp), 2nd (27lp), 4th (8lp), 4th (8lp) to gain 82 lp total in around 2 hours 20.

I come 8th once through bad play, horrendously bad luck or, what's happened to me many times, the game has crashed and I lose 75 lp in 20 minutes.

Worst case scenario, I come 4th 8 times in a row which is 4 hours worth of playtime, I come 8th once and in 20 mins of play, I lose all of my LP because my client got hardstuck on loading screen.

The sense of time wasted in these scenarios is not good for the games health. I completely understand LP inflation but the LP losses need balancing out.

23 Comments

Extreme Bad Luck6 votes

Have to agree. the frustration level is way too high but not because of the LP loses, it's because of time investment. Matches take way too much time and after a bad match, it really feels like wasted effort. There is a clever youtube video on the internet that explains how much frustration factor a game can have (google?) and TFT really has it high.

Ranked definitely needs more "elements" perhaps win streak/loss streak system or normalized LP gain/loss via calculated avg placement on a daily basis. (The second could actually work as win protection for 1 time: daily 1st match 1st placement 2nd match 8th, avg is 4th so LP loss reduced dramatically however 3rd match will determine the avg so another 1st placement may have slightly less LP or increased further LP loss for another 8th, the system resets daily)

I'm struggling in plat 1, have tried many days to finally reach diamond but because how ranked currently works im losing interest to even try and rather smurf with alt accounts in low ranks.

Pxerkza2 votes

i reckon it determines your lp gains/losses based on the average MMR of the game compared to yours

so if you win a game way above your rank you should win way more and in the cases where you lose so much the system has put you in favor to win

it does feel awful when 0 champs get rolled and you lose due to it tho or some dude lucked out with a 3* mf at lvl 7 or 3* draven but oh well thats what you have to deal with

i'd suggest you find what is causing the crashes for you there is a way to get your logs and you should contact the support team as there are way too many players not experiencing these issues (including myself) i've crashed only once since tft came out and im pretty sure it was because i was alt-tabbing like a motherfucker

Ryan here3 votes

Okay then, imagine this. I'm currently gaining 4lp for 4th place with my last game being 37:31.

If I played 20 games to get 80lp it would take 12 hours 40 mins.

If I came 8th once at the end of this, I would lose all of that lp in 20 mins.

That is 12 hours 20 mins progress lost just for 1 bad game.

Pxerkza1 votes

yes but if you come first you would regain that elo

im currently winning 40 at 1st place and losing 40 at 80th place so id assume im established in my elo it's a lot easier to be 8th place than 1st place but climbing shouldn't be easy imo

Ryan here4 votes

If I come 1st I gain between 30 and 40 lp..... I'm probably in a very different elo to you. Once you get diamond+ you get huge lp losses. There are people I speak to who lose lp for 4th in Diamond.

Pxerkza2 votes

then maybe you are diamond in LP but not in MMR

Ryan here4 votes

You appear to gain less and lose more as you get highter in the rankings. This is, I assume to stop ranked inflation or everybody would be challenger. I've been speaking to a lot of Diamond to Challenger players about their MMR gains and this seems to be the case.

It's why people stop gaining 100lp a win when they get near gold.

There has to be a less frustrating way though.

Pxerkza2 votes

you downvoting me when im giving you my experience with the ladder sure doesn't help you now does it

keep whining i could care less

Ryan here3 votes

Only really downvoting the ones where you're ignoring what I'm saying :P This topic is about the amount of frustration caused because of wasted time with numbers and figures. You turned this about my elo. I'm in a discord with a lot of Diamond - Challengers who are experiencing the same as me. Hence the frustration.

Xhandel1 votes

{quoted}

i reckon it determines your lp gains/losses based on the average MMR of the game compared to yours

Not true.

I had a streak of 3 victories, 2 second places, 2 third places and 1 4th, didnt got more than 35 points on victories. Had one single 8th place after that streak, got -64 lp instantly

Missedic1 votes

You're wrong about MMR in TFT. It doesn't work the way it does in League, where depending on your MMR, you can gain 20 but only lose 15 in the scenario you're talking about.

Another Thing about MMR is that when you win a LOT of games in a row, or you win more than you lose, you then gain MORE LP. This doesn't happen in TFT. I recently had a 6 game winning streak, another 4 game winning streak and another 5 game winning streak (that means coming in 1st, not just placing in the top 4) but the LP gain doesn't really change to consider that. In fact, it goes DOWN. This is obviously not an issue about MMR and I totally agree with the OP here. I win and get 36 LP, come 7th and lose 40.

I'm in Plat II, btw.

Subdue2 votes

This is a result of your MMR. Because your MMR is very high, there are probably very few people at your level. As a result, you're matched with people with lower MMR, putting you on the high end of the MMR range. This means the game expects you to win, as a result rewarding you less when you win and penalizing you more when you lose. This isn't really a fault of the system though, as all Elo based rating systems work the same way, including Summoner's Rift.

The alternative is that the matchmaker forces you to wait a very long time until it can find 7 other people who are closer to you in MMR.

Aaaandy1 votes

{quoted}

This is a result of your MMR. Because your MMR is very high, there are probably very few people at your level. As a result, you're matched with people with lower MMR, putting you on the high end of the MMR range. This means the game expects you to win, as a result rewarding you less when you win and penalizing you more when you lose. This isn't really a fault of the system though, as all Elo based rating systems work the same way, including Summoner's Rift.

The alternative is that the matchmaker forces you to wait a very long time until it can find 7 other people who are closer to you in MMR.

However, the problem with this is the RNG in TFT. For example, in SR if you are a high elo player and get matched up with players that are lower elo than you, you can still carry the game if you are good enough. But in TFT sometimes that's not the case because of the RNG in this mode. That's why you will sometimes see those high elo streamers get 8th place when they play their smurf account.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

However, the problem with this is the RNG in TFT. For example, in SR if you are a high elo player and get matched up with players that are lower elo than you, you can still carry the game if you are good enough. But in TFT sometimes that's not the case because of the RNG in this mode. That's why you will sometimes see those high elo streamers get 8th place when they play their smurf account.

It's different and it's not. Do you think the top ranked player in SR solo queue never loses?

Missedic1 votes

You're absolutely WRONG about this. This happens when being placed with people of your exact same rank. Also, when you hit a winning streak in League, you start to gain more LP for wins and lose less for losses, because the game is trying to match you with your actual rank faster. This does NOT happen in TFT where I recently had a 6, a 4 and a 5 game winning streak (coming in first) and my LP gain did not increase the way it would in League.

I hate when people with no actual knowledge of something talk about it as though they know what they're talking about. We all understand MMR and how it works. If TFT followed the same pattern it wouldn't be frustrating. If you played Summoner's Rift and gained 15 LP for a win but lost 25 for a loss, how long would the ranked version of the game hold your interest. This is what's happening.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

You're absolutely WRONG about this. This happens when being placed with people of your exact same rank. Also, when you hit a winning streak in League, you start to gain more LP for wins and lose less for losses, because the game is trying to match you with your actual rank faster. This does NOT happen in TFT where I recently had a 6, a 4 and a 5 game winning streak (coming in first) and my LP gain did not increase the way it would in League.

I hate when people with no actual knowledge of something talk about it as though they know what they're talking about. We all understand MMR and how it works. If TFT followed the same pattern it wouldn't be frustrating. If you played Summoner's Rift and gained 15 LP for a win but lost 25 for a loss, how long would the ranked version of the game hold your interest. This is what's happening.

If you've ever duo queued with someone much lower in MMR than you for Summoner's Rift, like say if you're Platinum 1 duo queueing with a Gold 4 friend, the above is exactly what you would see. When you won you'd get something like 8-12 LP, and when you lost you'd lose 18-20. Summoner's Rift has exponentially more players than TFT, which is why playing solo you don't experience this until you're much further up. In addition, it's not as visible because of the additional tiers (Master, Grand Master, Challenger), which aren't gated in 100 LP segments. TFT has a much smaller population, which means you don't need to get as far up to experience the same issue.

MahSi2 votes

I agree with this 100 percent, its BS. If you place top 4 at least 3 times in a row you should have a shield to prevent massive LP loss. That way if you want to try a risky build you aren't losing your ass if it doesn't pan out, otherwise you HAVE to play the meta, or always roll solid tank teams and pray for good RNG. The game would be much more fun if so. It sucks spending all day slowly climbing a rank, just to lose 3+ hours of work in 1 game.

Aaaandy1 votes

Totally agree. My main account is in diamond and I've stopped playing that account since last week. Also, I just wanna point out that the RNG in this mode is huge compared to SR, therefore, the MMR would be much less stable. In TFT, sometimes you just have bad luck and there is nothing you can do about it and those games don't reflect your skills at all. Since the reason for losing 2x of lp is most likely because the MMR is lower than the actual rank, in my opinion, they should at least put some kind of delay for the MMR to affect the lp gain/lose to balance out the unstableness of MMR causing by the RNG.

Extreme Bad Luck1 votes

Yea kinda dumb that RNG will actually affect your MMR that reflects player skill (?). My idea with avg placement won't really solve the RNG issue but MMR determines a fixed value of LP gain/loss and "placement" determines a % of it that may be adjusted by avg MMR??? Like a + value? MMR is kinda dumb and useless right now + my new idea is getting really complicated and I'm no Einstein.

We don't know much about MMR formula (nor we seeing it) and it is influenced by RNG too much so I may say its faulty. However, the MMR delay is a no-no for me, it will make you suffer more than you want.

Extreme Bad Luck1 votes

I can actually imagine a -0 LP value by getting like 5th place very high MMR match with our very low MMR since the game expects us to be 8th BUT we did not. Just need a math genius to work out the formula and voilá, RNG had less influence BUT skill had more. MMR raised ofc a bit after the match or decreased very minimal if we end up 8th as expected (like not just some random trash number generator like now)

Homeless Veteran1 votes

This is exasperated by only have 2-3 viable builds. Nerfing Demon/Ninja/Assassins/early Sorc into the ground like they did makes contestation for tanks/brawlers/rangers/noble all the more frustrating.

But their "design" of introducing their next line-up (hextech) by making items the determining factor if you win or lose in current meta, only to be crushed next patch I do find hilarious.

But I'm in plat, and I stopped played because there isn't enough build diversity atm. Once they can balance it out and I can start using all these demons/assassins/ninjas I am getting because no one else is picking them up.

AŠAP Q1 votes

My feelings exactly!

Toadwart

Id give you a "thumbs up" if I could.

I see the best players on Twitch get 7th-8th place occasionally.

Feels like a total waste of time.

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