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I do not think the future is bright for this mode. Riot's philosophy for it is not reassuring.

Marshbouy··48 votes·11,581 views

The development so far of Teamfight Tactics has led me to believe that riot does not want to make a good, strategy based game. I believe they want to make a mostly RNG based game that incentivizes playing enormous amounts of games instead of playing a smaller amount of quality games.

#The RNG.

Yes, TFT is an RNG based gamemode. You cannot remove RNG from it, but it is also not entirely based upon RNG. Being able to create an intelligent team composition, position your team effectively, create the best items, etc. is VITAL to winning games. But far too much of the game is based entirely upon random chance.

CHAMPIONS: RNG for champions in unavoidable because it is the basis for the gamemode. I have no problem with the current system for getting champions.

ITEMS: The difference in items is often the difference between who wins. Someone who has 3 items will always win vs someone who has 1 item, barring any weird external factors such as teamcomp countering or poorly managed economies. There is no way to play around a lack of items except hope that what little you do have will be enough.

The most annoying part is that it's SO EASY to fix. All riot has to do is guarantee everyone gets the same amount of drops from creep waves. Nothing else. Everyone does not have to get the same items (that would be ridiculous), but they do need to get the same amount.

But instead of fixing it by giving items more consistently, they make it WORSE. Instead of giving a consistent prize for having shitty luck, they instead change it so that there is MORE RNG! Now you get anywhere from 0-3 gold! Not only is this a negligible amount of gold, it is still possible for your to get JACK SHIT while your buddy gets 3 components!

PIRATES: 0-4 gold is ridiculous. I had a game where I went 10 rounds without getting any gold. I know it's not "true" RNG if it is controlled to give a more consistent experience, but consistent experiences are required if one wants to create a strategy-based game. Even just having it be "1-3 gold" or increase the chance of getting 4 gold after getting a string of 0 gold rolls would make thing so much better.

Twisted Fate: The first new champion being released by riot including an RNG mechanic is extremely telling. They do not want to create consistent games, they want to create games that are different.

EDIT: RNG IN DECIDING WHO FIGHTS WHO: This is the most ridiculous part. You would think that riot would implement some kind of round-robin system where everyone fights everyone one after another, but that is not the system we have. Right now you can face the top player repeatedly, or never fight a player once for an entire game. It's absurd.

#Encouraging lots of games

QUESTS: They really aren't even trying with the quests. "Play X amount of games past round 20" is ridiculously low effort and extremely boring. Making it so that you are unable to do more quests until you are done with one that forces you to do nothing but play more games feels terrible. I know that it is all free shit and has no impact on gameplay, but it is extremely low effort and feels terrible for the player.

RANKED: The fact that ranked is being released this soon after TFT launch and while TFT is still in this state is extremely telling. They are not focused on creating quality games, they are focused on encouraging playing more games. TFT is not ready for ranked.

  1. No match history. This is truly ridiculous. Being unable to look at past games is just...absurd.

  2. Extremely buggy.

  3. Heavily RNG based (yes, skill can still be judged over a larger number of games, but the point is that players need to play more to climb)


I like TFT, I really do, but it is not a gamemode that is ready for ranked. It is not a gamemode worth spending money on. It is not a gamemode that is on the correct trajectory, but I do not think it will ever get on the correct trajectory. Over the years I've felt riot's design philosophy shift from "we are going to create a strategic game that requires skill to win" to "we are going to create a fun game where anyone can be a hero." I don't have any hard evidence of it for SR, but it's just a feeling I have gotten over the years. I don't like this shift. I especially don't like this shift in relation to TFT.

28 Comments

Tobykachu16 votes

What triggers me about this game mode is the sheer amount of unnecessary RNG. Why are the items that drop randomised? As an example if I want to go sorcerers, I may lose because the game only drops BF swords and tank items.

Also some of the buffs are centred around RNG. You have the clearly superior team, based around smart decisions throughout the game? Well you can still potentially lose to the person in last place because they got obscenely lucky with the Yordle Buff, Glacials, Demons etc. Can’t we think of more intelligent buffs that aren’t based in RNG to be both more enjoyable to use and play against?

BigFBear2 votes

I think its ok that the item drop is randomised. You can build good items out of everything. For example you can build Spear of Shojin out of BF Sword for your casters like Aurelion Sol, Lulu, Veigar etc. Also there are defensive items like Phantom Dancer who are fucking awesome on your Carry to protect him against Assassins.

And even if you cant use your items for your Sorcerer Comp. You always have a Frontline who can make use out of the items. Just build a Zekes Herald or a Guradians Angel for your tanks.

kaijukitten1 votes

{quoted}

I think its ok that the item drop is randomised. You can build good items out of everything. For example you can build Spear of Shojin out of BF Sword for your casters like Aurelion Sol, Lulu, Veigar etc. Also there are defensive items like Phantom Dancer who are fucking awesome on your Carry to protect him against Assassins.

And even if you cant use your items for your Sorcerer Comp. You always have a Frontline who can make use out of the items. Just build a Zekes Herald or a Guradians Angel for your tanks.

Yea except when you get no items except from carousel. Item RNG is bogus.

Tobykachu1 votes

{quoted}

I think its ok that the item drop is randomised. You can build good items out of everything. For example you can build Spear of Shojin out of BF Sword for your casters like Aurelion Sol, Lulu, Veigar etc. Also there are defensive items like Phantom Dancer who are fucking awesome on your Carry to protect him against Assassins.

And even if you cant use your items for your Sorcerer Comp. You always have a Frontline who can make use out of the items. Just build a Zekes Herald or a Guradians Angel for your tanks.

It’s definitely not as bad as getting no items and they have done a good job of making sure that all items are pretty balanced, however I’m sure we can all agree that most of the champions function better with a certain set of items than another set.

Von810 votes

The Merry-go-round of sorrow is also pretty damn random, and I'm not just talking about the character and item combos... I mean the random position in the circle. If you have the lowest health, you may not get first pick, because that Kayle with the rageblade spawned on the other side of the circle.

I just had a game, where I was going down in flames, playing gunslingers, and a Miss Fortune with a Morello's spawned across the circle from me. I managed to juke through two heroes, into the middle, I was a mm away.... and some dude activates and takes a half-step to grab her. All hope was lost. XD

Marshbouy9 votes

this is one thing I forgot to include. The way the carousel is set up just doesn't work.

Garen is adopted4 votes

Well I didnt think would be possible, but i get placed iron on tft, after losing like every game cause i barely got items, and when i got something once was in extremly late game, when people alerdy get full team comps, and i wasnt even able to get a 3 star champion, cause reroll is as fucked as item drops.

Big Soviet Bear2 votes

Yeah man, I agree with you so hard here. League used to feel so much better to play, like you had more impact based on certain decisions, etc.., but now...they really are trying too hard with this "Fun, and always different!" Thing where RNG is King. Like, oh, you're against a bursty, mobile team? Hey man, here are some useful Ocean Drakes, spawning 3 times in a row, so that you get to regen through all of that burst .__.

But I digress. As far as TFT goes, yeah, the RNG is way too excessive. I made a post here earlier, about my gripes, and I included things like Yordle and Glacial buff. Like, really? You just can't hit a 6 yordle team? Just, whiff it? FeelsGoodMan. And Glacial? You don't get to move. Also agreed that we should have Match History, sounds so simple, but what do we know, I guess. Sure, one could argue that using what you are dealt through RNG is the true skill, but that doesn't even always equate to "Fun" either. They need to establish more consistency in this game mode, not add more RNG, agreed.

CHODES AND LOADS2 votes

the game was looking really cool. the fact that it is rough around the edges was forgivable because it is a new concept, and then when they acknowledged the problem points of the game mode and proposed decent changes that could have made it a lot better, they pull a 180 and slam dunk that motherfucker right into a fucking dumpster. reminds me of when they added bans to aram, then stripped it right back out because its always one step forward then 2 steps back with these clowns

Kydenyolden1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CHODES AND LOADS,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=a8FLLFAo,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-07-18T12:12:47.967+0000)

the game was looking really cool. the fact that it is rough around the edges was forgivable because it is a new concept, and then when they acknowledged the problem points of the game mode and proposed decent changes that could have made it a lot better, they pull a 180 and slam dunk that motherfucker right into a fucking dumpster. reminds me of when they added bans to aram, then stripped it right back out because its always one step forward then 2 steps back with these clowns

The 2 days of bans in Arams was so nice. Literally didnt see Veigar once. Honestly though im sure it was because enough people raged at Riot on the forums so hopefully with the vast amounts of hate they are recieving over TFT hopefully they are able to pull their heads out of their ass that seem to be cemented up there.

OC GFRIEND Yerin1 votes

I have a bad feeling that TFT would become the next dominion. We all know what happened to dominion, many players has never even heard of at. But hey, at least we have TFT, unlike the biggest lie riot has ever released. HINT: Magma Chamber.

Marshbouy5 votes

I think TFT will end up more like NB than like dominion. Riot tries to keep the "quick, RNG based games" crowd's attention, fails, and then eventually retires the mode because no one plays it anymore. Instead they should focus on building and maintaining a consistent playerbase. You know, like a good developer would do.

Janna Me Fiddle3 votes

TFT is probably going to be around for a while, it's attracted a lot of players that didn't care for SR, a fair few card game players moved over. It might not retain some SR players, but it already has a pro scene building, regular tournaments on Twitch between popular streamers, pros and retired former pros

So yeah it's already 100% in a better place than Dominion, Dominion had a very small Tourney scene and failed to hook any professional interest.

Edit: In fact, I'm pretty sure I remember "This will not last" posts about Dota2s Autochess when it first came out....guess that doom panned out well eh?

Edit2: I'd also add that one of the big attractions of TFT is it attracts the 24yo+ player market, of which there is a lot of, players that don't have the twitch reflexes anymore for SR but still want to engage with the game in some capacity.

Marshbouy2 votes

You're assuming that people will continue to play TFT when riot continues to refuse to listen to the community.

There are other autochess style games out there. what's saying that they won't just, leave? Going from autochess to autochess is a lot less difficult than from moba to moba.

IDC how many excuses you raise, "people said that about ____" "dominion didn't have a pro-scene" "it attracts a different market". People will not play a game if it's shit. People won't play a game if riot goes "we heard what you wanted, but we don't like it and we're going to change it."

A game that is this heavily based on RNG will not be able to be competitive long-term. People will get fed up. DOTA Underlords doesn't have as much RNG as TFT does. I'm thinking about switching already.

Janna Me Fiddle1 votes

Hearthstone. Nuff said

Marshbouy2 votes

incomparable. Hearthstone doesn't have items which decide the fate of games.

Janna Me Fiddle1 votes

Hearthstone has several games where it's literally decided by top decking the right card or RNGing the right spell/effect.

Let me ask you this.

If TFT is so bogged down with item RNG, why do disguised toast and scarra regularly finish top 2? If RNG was so heavy, the law of averages would make that next to impossible.

Because the game is about effective Economy management and strategy, not blindly rushing straight to the most Meta comp and complaining when you blow all your gold not getting it because everyone else is running it, but rather than accepting maybe you made a poor choice fighting over a limited pool when you could have swerved to a less contested comp and done just as well "I didn't get as many items as that guy" comes up.

Sorry man, it's an excuse, there's a reason I'm seeing people run for Meta comps even with Phat items getting eliminated in bottom 5, it's because they refuse to adapt and switch leaving their economy completely in the drain and get outscaled by others that did adapt.

There's a Verrrry good reason I typically aim for Demon Blademasters/Assassins/Sorcerers

Because it's a strong comp that nobody is bothering to contest, they're too busy blowing all their economy rolling for gunslingers.

It has allowed me to finish my placements at the highest possible bracket.

Edit: OH and yes, I had 3 of my 5 placements with no item drop in the open rounds, I win by economy and using it to snowball, If I see a stacked up character, I position and build to counter it.

Marshbouy5 votes

NO ONE IS SAYING TFT IS PURE RNG

anyone who is shouldn't be listened to.

NO ONE IS SAYING NO SKILL GOES INTO TFT.

anyone who is shouldn't be listened to.

PEOPLE ARE ANNOYED WITH HOW MUCH RNG IS IN THE GAME

you're telling them to shut up and stop bitching about it. There is no reason for item RNG to be in the game.

Cevrad1 votes

{quoted}

The development so far of Teamfight Tactics has led me to believe that riot does not want to make a good, strategy based game. I believe they want to make a mostly RNG based game that incentivizes playing enormous amounts of games instead of playing a smaller amount of quality games.

#The RNG.

Yes, TFT is an RNG based gamemode. You cannot remove RNG from it, but it is also not entirely based upon RNG. Being able to create an intelligent team composition, position your team effectively, create the best items, etc. is VITAL to winning games. But far too much of the game is based entirely upon random chance.

There is no such thing as an intelligent teamcomp in a full RNG based game that has minimal variation. People are going to push what is best, they will either get it or not get it. But hey, the game is intended to be fully random, its how the game is supposed to be, so its fine, I will just never play it.

Illabethe1 votes

Here's why this game has a bright future:

Although RNG isn't as rewarding as "skill" RNG is more rewarding to a BRAIN (Those dopamine hits)

Furthermore, it's a place toxics can go, and not be toxic. (a majority of the community)

Technically, the presence of such RNG DOES require "Skill." -People have to learn what each team has and build around that. This is more important in most games than items. -People have the capacity to deny other people by purchasing their cards, if their incomes allow it. -Interest and Streaks that are correctly managed to create more gold require strategy (The argument that sometimes you don't have a choice is an illusion, at least for about the first 15 rounds) -When to level or when to rank up.

P.S. 1-5 Gold for not getting an item is potentially HUGE early game; If you can get 2-5 extra gold per monster round, it will affect your ability to buy level 1 3 star champions DRAMATICALLY. If you get items instead, you generally will struggle to complete them.

P.P.S I cannot emphasize the second point ENOUGH: Even if you have personal opinions about RNG and the game itself: The fact it will act like a magnet for people who have 2 week bans under their belt or people who are just tilted in ranked/norms of Summoner's Rift CANNOT BE UNDERSTATED. ARAM: You can still get banned. People who get upset at teams in ranked will still gripe in ARAM. In TFT, there's no MOTIVE to gripe. There's no true griefing.

In other words, this game mode is a MASTERPIECE toward solving behavior modification for Riot. People who cannot exist in ranked SR will move here, and your games in SR will be less toxic on the average. It will be VASTLY more successful than the IFS.

Amuq the Native1 votes

Oh, you would be surprised. I've met plenty of people in TFT who still managed to be toxic, insulting everything and everyone in the chat.

However, you're right on it still improving player behaviour on average, for one reason: it's not a team game, so I couldn't care less if other players are toxic. That won't prevent me from winning. If they want to be moronic assholes, that's fine, let them be moronic assholes - I can focus on having fun instead.

Toxicity is really problematic when it happens inside of your team. When team atmosphere is bad, nobody has fun, nobody plays as well as they could, and it's generally a shitshow. I entirely stopped playing SR because of it. But in opponents? Meh, who cares - that idiot is not on your team, so all the best for you.

Having a FFA game is good, because no matter how many flaming idiots you're matched with, they can't directly impact your game, so it's a lot less frustrating. Honestly, that more than anything else is what made me try out TFT and actually enjoy it.

Kydenyolden1 votes

{quoted}

Here's why this game has a bright future:

Although RNG isn't as rewarding as "skill" RNG is more rewarding to a BRAIN (Those dopamine hits)

Furthermore, it's a place toxics can go, and not be toxic. (a majority of the community)

Technically, the presence of such RNG DOES require "Skill." -People have to learn what each team has and build around that. This is more important in most games than items. -People have the capacity to deny other people by purchasing their cards, if their incomes allow it. -Interest and Streaks that are correctly managed to create more gold require strategy (The argument that sometimes you don't have a choice is an illusion, at least for about the first 15 rounds) -When to level or when to rank up.

P.S. 1-5 Gold for not getting an item is potentially HUGE early game; If you can get 2-5 extra gold per monster round, it will affect your ability to buy level 1 3 star champions DRAMATICALLY. If you get items instead, you generally will struggle to complete them.

P.P.S I cannot emphasize the second point ENOUGH: Even if you have personal opinions about RNG and the game itself: The fact it will act like a magnet for people who have 2 week bans under their belt or people who are just tilted in ranked/norms of Summoner's Rift CANNOT BE UNDERSTATED. ARAM: You can still get banned. People who get upset at teams in ranked will still gripe in ARAM. In TFT, there's no MOTIVE to gripe. There's no true griefing.

In other words, this game mode is a MASTERPIECE toward solving behavior modification for Riot. People who cannot exist in ranked SR will move here, and your games in SR will be less toxic on the average. It will be VASTLY more successful than the IFS.

Uhm, a game mode where you get screwed by chance and watch your opponents get sucked off by the RNG gods. Definitely is going to cause just as much Toxic behavior in players as SR, probably even more. You will always have the shit heads that will have something to say when youre losing. What can you possibly do about it in this game mode? At least on SR youre able to shut them down and give them the ? when you dumpster them after they shit talk you. Here youre expected to bend over and take it until youre able to ff.

Illabethe1 votes

Saying and doing are two very different things. So are the number of things to say.

You can't "grief" a TFT game in the sense of AFK/Surrender/punish teammates/KS kills/Take CS/Afk Jungle etc. Those features simply do not exist. About all you can do: Gripe at the system (everyone feels you there, so not really toxic), or try to blame someone else for your own decisions (again, doesn't work because eventually it boils back down to YOUR decisions).

In other words, both the causes of toxicity AND the ways to exhibit it are far fewer!

About the worst thing I've said so far? "Welp. **** already won. Immortal Garen in round 9."

(I have 5 Perma bans and 1 2 week ban.)

Bottom line: This game is more or less Solo Player. By its nature, even though there may be 1-3 people queued together, for the MOST part it's 8 1v1's. Those queued together may help each other, but RNG affects that just as much as anything. You are accountable for not making the top 4. RNG May be at fault for you not getting top 2. Teams may be at fault for you not getting #1. (all give positive LP btw).

Kydenyolden1 votes

{quoted}

Here's why this game has a bright future:

Although RNG isn't as rewarding as "skill" RNG is more rewarding to a BRAIN (Those dopamine hits)

Furthermore, it's a place toxics can go, and not be toxic. (a majority of the community)

Technically, the presence of such RNG DOES require "Skill." -People have to learn what each team has and build around that. This is more important in most games than items. -People have the capacity to deny other people by purchasing their cards, if their incomes allow it. -Interest and Streaks that are correctly managed to create more gold require strategy (The argument that sometimes you don't have a choice is an illusion, at least for about the first 15 rounds) -When to level or when to rank up.

P.S. 1-5 Gold for not getting an item is potentially HUGE early game; If you can get 2-5 extra gold per monster round, it will affect your ability to buy level 1 3 star champions DRAMATICALLY. If you get items instead, you generally will struggle to complete them.

P.P.S I cannot emphasize the second point ENOUGH: Even if you have personal opinions about RNG and the game itself: The fact it will act like a magnet for people who have 2 week bans under their belt or people who are just tilted in ranked/norms of Summoner's Rift CANNOT BE UNDERSTATED. ARAM: You can still get banned. People who get upset at teams in ranked will still gripe in ARAM. In TFT, there's no MOTIVE to gripe. There's no true griefing.

In other words, this game mode is a MASTERPIECE toward solving behavior modification for Riot. People who cannot exist in ranked SR will move here, and your games in SR will be less toxic on the average. It will be VASTLY more successful than the IFS.

Ah a Riot worshipper on the forums. The agme is fucked, even card games allow you to build/customize your own decks before they throw the RNG train at you. This is next level on every single aspect. Rito was even like "HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY ADD ANYMORE RNG TO THIS GAME? TF PICK A CARD, PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!" Yeah thats pathetic. This is supposed to be called Auto- (Chess). Chess is a game of tactical play and decision making, not this you have 30 seconds to setup bullshit and move 2 units around. Fire emblem tactics for the 3ds has more tactical play involved. If the whole world revolved around RNG we would be still stuck in the stone age. Its not a healthy feature to have in life so dont understand why peopel are so eager to suck off having it around.

Illabethe1 votes

What you don't seem to realize is "auto chess" is in fact also a game with so many possible outcomes and move combinations, that we generally consider the number of outcomes to be "almost infinite." (more like 13 trillion different move combinations, but for a human, that might as well be infinite)

What find is actually the opposite if you so choose to climb ranked in TFT: It's far more complicated and based on choices you make than it is on RNG. Anyone whose currently broken Platinum rank will agree that their own choices had more of a role to play in their success than the RNG did.

Even though Items are finite, and champions are pseudo random, over the course of a game, you have about 500 different purchase opportunities for cards. It may seem like it's always a good idea to go a build that contains some large synergy, or try for your 3 star. In truth, sometimes the rolls actually tell you that you should be changing your tactic. For example, you might pass up 9 Gnar cards while trying to build a Noble team. You may not buy Swain cards while trying to build a Yordle deck. Early in the game, you might buy exclusively Wild/Tristana/Yordle, while passing up 9 Garens in the very first 3-4 shuffles. You don't know what will pop up, so you wager your predetermined deck against something that might possibly be far better of an offering.

But..... the people who are climbing see those 9 cards you threw away. They buy them, make a compromise build, and throw out their old cards. They go through several rounds without finishing their items because they know you will try to build according to what they build, and some items are better than others, and they might only get 1-2 chances to make them. If you get a recurve bow, do you make a Blade of the Divine or do you wait for a Guinsoo's? Do you ignore Giant's Belts in favor of offensive items, even though Giant's belt is a component in Warmog's, Red Buff, and Zeke's?

These are all non RNG choices you can accomplish EVERY GAME, which have a greater impact than the RNG does.

I have seen more 2 star teams #1 rank than 3 star teams with better items, simply because their champ selections and items were adaptive.

I am not a Riot Worshipper. I am a 5 time bannee with an active D I account, a new account, and a 2 week ban account. Each account has over $1200 in spending except the new account, which is at $300. I may be stupid for spending, but do you think I like getting banned by a system just because my teams int, grief, etc, and I call them out on it in chat? I'd rather do that that yell at my family or break my keyboard when the game gets frustrating in ranked (SR).

UnstoppableMaybe1 votes

{quoted}

Ah a Riot worshipper on the forums. The agme is fucked, even card games allow you to build/customize your own decks before they throw the RNG train at you. This is next level on every single aspect. Rito was even like "HOW CAN WE POSSIBLY ADD ANYMORE RNG TO THIS GAME? TF PICK A CARD, PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!" Yeah thats pathetic. This is supposed to be called Auto- (Chess). Chess is a game of tactical play and decision making, not this you have 30 seconds to setup bullshit and move 2 units around. Fire emblem tactics for the 3ds has more tactical play involved. If the whole world revolved around RNG we would be still stuck in the stone age. Its not a healthy feature to have in life so dont understand why peopel are so eager to suck off having it around.

I must say that while I don't think Teamfight Tactics is terrible, I think for them to make it a quality project, or to expand in a new direction entirely for League of Legends, that they would have to not only dedicate time specifically for TFT over League of Legends known main purpose, but they would also likely require expanding their studio size, including possibly opening more Studios in new locations with the new profit they make from their new content for League of Legends! So I think TFT may always be a side experience to screw around with at times, but until they can expand their employee size working on their projects, I don't think the quality of TFT will match its competitors. I don't think TFT will do so bad it can't holdup well enough, but I do think it won't be an awesome or epically tactical experience until they can make it as good as its competitors such as Fire Emblem or Animated Chess in general. Since I don't care for Auto Chess games anyways, I do hope they never take the mode to seriously, and work on it only as a side project when there is enough time for it. I would rather see an RPG League of Legends far more profitable, and able to produce well than an Auto Chess game mode expansion, not to mention all the different Lore possibilities, with Unreal Engine utilized for a next generation console experience as well for example! If you like what's said here, the Link below may interest you even further.

(As many may notice in the following suggestions and contents in the Link below, consisting of more Links to expand League of Legends) https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/teamfight-tactics/JFFl6tMO-is-tft-a-sign-for-riot-to-expand-league-of-legends-into-a-new-ip-or-full-retail-game-in-the-future

TheBrothersGrymm1 votes

i literally hate tft. whenever i play i get shit rng, 3 gold from first pve rounds other poeple have SoS or rageblades done, like sweet im gunna lose hard

Kydenyolden1 votes

Riot was bought by a mentally handicapped man in China. The company hasnt been the same since then. Same thing when Blizzard became Blizzard Activision. Don't know who was tripping on 45 hits of Acid that was high up in Blizzard and suggested doing that, but their shit is tanking hard.

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