Zephyr

Godammit Nappa·Jan 14, 2020·4 votes·3,577 views

Why do we not know who we are facing next? It completely disregards the little bit of strategy that Zephyr COULD have (until top 3-4). I have played other auto chess games and they usually inform you of your next opponent, which lets you actually position better. This random player thing does nothing but push the lack of skill and placement required to win and to focus only on your team strength and traits.

Also, how come I can face the same person twice in a row? Win or loss that is never a good interaction.

35 Comments

BrodkaJan 14, 20205 votes

Because the game is awful and has too much rng in so many areas of the game. There is little to no skill expression in this game, you're forced to make due with whatever the game gives you and if you get worse units/items the game is just over. And yes the matchmaking is awful, I love when I'm last place early in the game with no leveled units and they put me up against the guy in first place, really great game design.

SaezioJan 14, 20204 votes

There is little to no skill expression in this game,

I guess you are challenger? How come so many people have multiple accounts in challenger with not many games if the game is RNG? Might be a bit RNG when you are already playing with your equals. But prior to that. It's not rng at all. Just tell me how the challengers just get their accounts there in no time when millions of people struggle to get into plat or diamond.

I guess they have non-stop luck. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

ToolmakerJan 15, 20203 votes

I'm sure you know how Challengers reach that tier, also.

It is basically common sense that the game is based mainly on rng...and the op has a point with the lack of strategy. You're just moving your carry units in a safe place and putting your frontline in the front. Rolling to hope to get something usable and strong. Hoping you can get the items you want. There isn't much skill involved...

SaezioJan 15, 20202 votes

They reach challenger by playing the game well. Fast rolls, knowledge of comps, fast scouting, quick adaptation and recalibration

The game is only based on RNG if you and your opponents are all equal in game knowledge and skill.

That is the reason the SAME people are always challenger.

That is the reason you won't see a silver player "luck" their way to diamond.

And that's the reason you won't see a diamond player be unlucky and end up in gold.

CharDeeMcDennizJan 15, 20201 votes

{quoted}

It is basically common sense that the game is based mainly on rng...

so incorrect it's not even funny

Godammit NappaJan 15, 20203 votes

{quoted}

so incorrect it's not even funny

Actually every "skill" based facet of the game can be undermined by bad luck. Similar to hearthstone the entire game is about knowing your deck, your opponents deck, proper counter, etc. but a bad draw or a god draw can entirely win you a game regardless the skill level. "how come people cant all get to challenger" well I have watched entire streams of challenger players ALSO complain about bad RNG, and how come challenger players get 8th place still in some games? If they are that good they must top 3 all the time. It is a game with a skill ceiling, a HARD skill ceiling. Knowing how to play the game and perfecting how to roll, when to level, that is skill but it can be completely destroyed by never getting a unit (I just played a game where no one was running ANY of the champs I went and yet two of my blue champs I never once saw a third copy of, meaning I had to alter my comp late game which meant that while I had the skill to make top 2, RNG decided I wasted time and gold on another comp, as well as my original comp would have been much stronger and thus also RNG decided I got 2nd, not 1st.)

CharDeeMcDennizJan 16, 20201 votes

whatever excuse you need to tell yourself when you get hardstuck i guess

Godammit NappaJan 16, 20201 votes

Are you even above gold?

CharDeeMcDennizJan 16, 20201 votes

even if i was stuck in iron 3, I still wouldn't use the lame "RNG" excuse to cry about it

Godammit NappaJan 18, 20201 votes

Very confused? You are iron 3? Maybe get to at least gold first?

CharDeeMcDennizJan 18, 20201 votes

soooo i guess you missed the big word IF in there huh?

Godammit NappaJan 23, 20201 votes

Well I am not iron 3, so that was why I assumed...so nope I did not miss it. A quick google search shows I am slightly above you in TFT rank, so maybe change your comment?

CharDeeMcDennizJan 23, 20201 votes

if you saw and understood the "even if" part of my post we wouldn't be here, i was speaking hypothetically dude...

gold 3 if you must know

Godammit NappaJan 15, 20203 votes

{quoted}

I guess you are challenger? How come so many people have multiple accounts in challenger with not many games if the game is RNG? Might be a bit RNG when you are already playing with your equals. But prior to that. It's not rng at all. Just tell me how the challengers just get their accounts there in no time when millions of people struggle to get into plat or diamond.

I guess they have non-stop luck. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

In regards to this.....look at the hours logged on a challengar account, then look at the hours logged on most gold accounts. I myself only have time for 1, possibly 2, games a day before I go to work. A loss for me is a day (if not more) or regrinding back. Most challengar players sink HOURS a day into the game. The issue with many games I have played is a lack of time often times is tied to a lack of skill, when most people just don't get to plat or diamond because they don't have the time to sink into the game or mainly play for fun.

BrodkaJan 16, 20201 votes

Name me 3 people that are challenger with 100 games or under that WEREN'T already Diamond + last set. Most of these people in challenger are putting in 8+ hours a day into TFT, casual people who play ranked do not have that type of time, so obviously the people who are above average at the game with a larger sample size are going to be high ranked. Most of these people agree with the game having too much RNG, also love how you ignored my other points. The game is mediocre at best. [galio-happy]

SaezioJan 17, 20201 votes

I don't even need to do that. Go watch a unranked->diamond series and see how few games it takes pros, and how many games it would take YOU.

Those pros, get like 80-90% 1st-2nd place before reaching diamond and they NEVER end up bellow 4th in those games either. Do you get these results when you play? And it's just that you simply don't have the time to hit challenger? Even though you end up only in the top 2 in iron-plat. IF so, sure, it's number of games holding u back.

P.S. Your other points were again bitching about how the game is unfair and luck based. That's why I didn't respond.

BrodkaJan 18, 20201 votes

Weird I was able to answer your question but you can't answer mine lmao and when did this become about me? I play the game to have fun and yes. like everyone else hopefully win, I never once said I was as good as anyone or better, I just want to have a fun game where you can express skill, if you have a game where you find no units that suit your RNG items you eventually just bleed out so thats just me getting outskilled or bad luck? Also you sure have a lot knowledge for someone who only plays normal games [sg-lux-2] WeirdChamp

True GarenJan 18, 20201 votes

{quoted}

I guess you are challenger? How come so many people have multiple accounts in challenger with not many games if the game is RNG? Might be a bit RNG when you are already playing with your equals. But prior to that. It's not rng at all. Just tell me how the challengers just get their accounts there in no time when millions of people struggle to get into plat or diamond.

I guess they have non-stop luck. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Again, the fact that players consistently rise to Challenger because they have "solved" the game, is BECAUSE it's RNG. A robot can also play with statistics to select the choice the best probably outcome. But you can see that those players may come in 1st %60 of the time - but no more, because RNG.

This is not qualitatively different from how knowledgeable blackjack (or even backgammon) players play. Confronted with any scenario, the best option is known and selected. In Blackjack, those odds usually give close to %50 winrate in a casino. In TFT, the game is much more complex, the game isn't slanted towards the House, so the odds are more favourable.

Any particular round of TFT has many random elements, and the same round played over, will end differently. (I have seen this myself.) TFT is a game of chance.

SaezioJan 19, 20201 votes

I think it's way more comparable to poker. Sure, luck plays a chance. But if you play 1000 hands of poker vs a better you just lose.

Now, there is the "bad luck protection" because you don't need to get 1st place to rise.

And ultimately, between equals, luck is the most important thing. But till you get to the rank that represents your skill you will easily rise.

True GarenJan 19, 20201 votes

{quoted}

I think it's way more comparable to poker. Sure, luck plays a chance. But if you play 1000 hands of poker vs a better you just lose.

Now, there is the "bad luck protection" because you don't need to get 1st place to rise.

And ultimately, between equals, luck is the most important thing. But till you get to the rank that represents your skill you will easily rise.

Poker hasn't really been "solved". TFT apparently has been.

A hand of poker takes a minute. A match of TFT takes about 40m. The RNG of a single hand of Poker is equivalently effective as the RNG in a whole match of TFT. Who's playing 1000 matches of TFT?

True GarenJan 18, 20201 votes

{quoted}

I guess you are challenger? How come so many people have multiple accounts in challenger with not many games if the game is RNG? Might be a bit RNG when you are already playing with your equals. But prior to that. It's not rng at all. Just tell me how the challengers just get their accounts there in no time when millions of people struggle to get into plat or diamond.

I guess they have non-stop luck. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

The point is, that even these challenger players, who know what they're doing, will occasionally lose to a much less able player, who happens to have particularly good luck in one match. THAT'S why this is a game of chance. Even a noob, can sometimes win.

ŻügżwängJan 16, 20202 votes

I agree with you and Brodka. The game would be much better if it just started with 4 players max, letting you actually plan for your opponents much better. I don't understand the 8 man free for all decision. I'd much rather prefer a 1v1, right from the start, you can see everything your opponent does constantly, as he can see with you. As it stands though, this is how they're going to leave it... which is sad because the game does have some decent potential.

XAltinaOrionXJan 18, 20202 votes

Geez kids learn to end this stupid argument. Or maybe i will have too. before i go to bed.

TFT is not a skilled based chess game. (Your not working hard to complete something) The kids who are high ranked play this over 9hrs daily. Of course these high ranked players will run into issues like 3 opponents can't gain any traction because their team comp is the same. So yea you can throw in some Luck in TFT. TFT is just gathering info and throwing it down hoping you can switch it up on the fly that's all.

Godammit NappaJan 23, 20201 votes

And my point still stands. Why does it have to be that? It doesnt, and yet there is a full community that seems to defend NOT changing it when riot gains money and traction from its players, we aren't handed things and are unable to do it, even though that is what game companies have come to think because no one wants to "anger the gods".

We can all voice enough to change the game but it requires everyone to do so, hence the debate

SaezioJan 15, 20201 votes

The problem with your suggestion (knowing who you will face next) means that a ton of classes would need to be buffed because positioning well would fuck em up. Assassins for example. If everyone positions perfectly against them for the entire game they fucked.

also, zephyr would be way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more broken if you can basically guarantee you throw enemy's best unit every round.

I think maybe allowing the player 1-2 seconds to reposition after both teams are in the same board would be reasonable. but not the entire planning phase

Godammit NappaJan 15, 20201 votes

{quoted}

The problem with your suggestion (knowing who you will face next) means that a ton of classes would need to be buffed because positioning well would fuck em up. Assassins for example. If everyone positions perfectly against them for the entire game they fucked.

also, zephyr would be way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more broken if you can basically guarantee you throw enemy's best unit every round.

I think maybe allowing the player 1-2 seconds to reposition after both teams are in the same board would be reasonable. but not the entire planning phase

So what you are saying is, league would have to fix the skill curve in the game? And that a part of the game that pros do (scouting) wuold be integrated into everyone else as well? People would have to learn to play skillfully?

Fo shame

PS Why is it called a planning phase if you cant plan appropriately? Secondary if Zephyr becomes broken they can FIX zephyr, reduce the knock up duration, easy fix. Changing entire team builds? This is a game of ever changing metas, BUT just because assassins can be played around does not mean they become useless. It means that you have to build appropriately, and that you as the person playing against them need to move your assassins to accommodate. Oh he moved his wardens to the back line? That means you can play a team that attacks his front line.

SaezioJan 15, 20201 votes

The thing with assassins is they always jump to the back. You can't position them to jump to the front. So you can't counter position.

Maybe a short window(like 5 seconds) when you know your enemy before the positions lock could be manageable.

When you scout, it takes knowledge to know vs whom you want to position. You need to have a thinking process and know who you beat regardless of position (so you don't care about) who you lose to regardless of position (disregarded as well) and from the remaining people see who you prefer to try your luck with positioning against them. It's easy if you only lose to 1 person, but if you are in the middle of the pack you need to be very careful with your choices. This is more skill than the skill required to position vs 1 person that you know you are gonna face. My opinion obviously

True GarenJan 18, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godammit Nappa,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=Y2NEA1As,comment-id=,timestamp=2020-01-14T18:52:52.113+0000)

Why do we not know who we are facing next? It completely disregards the little bit of strategy that Zephyr COULD have (until top 3-4). I have played other auto chess games and they usually inform you of your next opponent, which lets you actually position better. This random player thing does nothing but push the lack of skill and placement required to win and to focus only on your team strength and traits.

Also, how come I can face the same person twice in a row? Win or loss that is never a good interaction.

You want to know who the next player is so that you can use your Zephyr better?!

Zephyr is a fundamentally bad item. It's only a bit useful in the current Season because you can assume that enemy has a key unit on a map buff hex. (But you'll also want your best units on those hexes by late game, and those units would probably be stacked with better items.) So, playing Zephyr can get you to top 4 usefully.

By late game, the opponent ALSO knows that you have a Zephyr and where you are keeping it, so it's fairly easy to counter. (Zephyr scales poorly for this reason, and also because, obviously, as more units are added to the board, the strength of Zephyr becomes proportionately weaker.)

Knowing who the next opponent is, would make Zephyr even LESS useful.

I usually announce any Zephyr that I spot, in chat, as soon as I see it.

Godammit NappaJan 23, 20201 votes

Why is it a bad item. You said it was but never explained why

True GarenJan 23, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godammit Nappa,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=Y2NEA1As,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2020-01-23T17:01:17.490+0000)

Why is it a bad item. You said it was but never explained why

It seems to get users to endgame, so, in that sense, I guess that it's good. The item is easily counter-able. It's not particularly GOOD on any champion. It's only usable at all in the current Season because you know which hexes to focus. But in order to keep those focused, especially late game, you would need to occupy a slot on a champ that YOU want on the hex, or else equip a lesser champion that you wouldn't normally.

And late game, the enemy carry is now stacked, so not on a hex. You can no longer confidently mitigate the enemy carries. Focus on a hex and affect a lesser threat. Or try to second-guess your opponent, who is ALSO watching your placement.

The item's value decreases as the enemy's teamsize increases. Because it nullifies a relatively smaller percentage of the enemy team. So, it's reverse scaling.

Late game, the enemy knows that you have it, and he knows where it's focused. Easy to shuffle the team so that the effect is minimized. Meanwhile, you spent about %11 of your item resources on a Zephyr.

And also, besides, if the enemy has Quicksilver ( and why wouldn't he?) then he just puts the champion with that item on the Zephyr focus. QSS generally has stronger stats for the unit, and its effects persist longer than 7s. The counter item is MUCH better than the CC item itself. (Like, a QSS on Kha'Zix is MUCH stronger than a Zephyr on Annie.)

You probably see good results with it, and so persuaded to keep building it. But with proper itemization, your results would be a lot better.

(I also suggest, that the item kind of received an indirect nerf with Set 2, since we have more hexes. It's easier for an opponent to accommodate facing a Zephyr, with less inconvenience to his Team placement.)

...

And if we knew who the coming enemy was, then Zephyr would be useless at all stages of the game.

Godammit NappaJan 24, 20201 votes

I think the opposite, the item itself is a complete attention based item. Not paying attention or not sure how it works and it punishes you, more items like this should be made, to allow team comps a way to counter their counter. Currently there is no "he is playing mages, I can build this or put these champs in and my team suddenly counters mages" because the game requires you to build a team from the bottom up and transitioning too late or not having a high tier comp means you may have more MR but what other traits and abilities did you lose to get it?

Items like zephyr allow players a skill focus, to counter the enemy focus that may carry the enemy team alone. We need more items like this, items that maybe silence a champ for the start of the game (honestly hush and sword breaker should be changed to have a zephyr like mirror focus for X seconds at the start of the round, none of the "welp it procced every time so my sivir didn't even attack" crap that plagues even high ELO players, watching your team do literally nothing is not fun, its annoying)

But alas, to each their own. The game has potential but the Devs do not listen as much as they say they try and players who wish to donate both time and mental testing they will not even get them in touch with someone so it is obvious they are trying to ride the waves and not actually try to push for the next great game or the new piece of gold that players cannot put down. They made league years ago under the premise of making players unable to leave it by refining the game and working for the players, but they got too big, just another large company

True GarenJan 25, 20201 votes

Other items can't be countered by simply "paying attention". You just said, the item only works if your opponent isn't mindful. That's the definition of a bad item. It only works if your opponent is bad.

Try NOT making Zephyrs, and instead, making appropriate items for your carrys. See if you don't win more often doing that.

I feel Zephyr is what people make, because they don't want to learn good itemization.

You can indeed build to counter. You can see early in the match how it's going. You can assume, that you will want grievous wounds. Somebody gonna make Olaf. You can see very early if somebody is trying to build a Veigar. There's a few ways to counter that, and try to include it in your comp.

"Hush" counters Mages. Mages want to build mana quickly to double Ult. You can slow that down. What are they including with their mages? A Nami? Better get QS on some assassin to take her out. These are just examples. The fact that you think that Zephyr is good, and you also don't believe that counterbuilding is possible, isn't a coincidence.

if you make it to late end-game, then you will probably have 9 complete items. By that time, your opponent is certainly familiar with your Zephyr.

Anyway, this is what I see. Guys even make 2 or 3 of them. I build very large comps with many synergies. I'll have some units just for synergy, and otherwise quite weak. I'll most likely make sure that the enemy Zephyr targets those. Or else my champ with a QS.

We should check Zephyr winrate as an item...

True GarenJan 25, 20201 votes

You know what else counters Zephyr? Ocean. I bet Zephyr is especially poor on an Ocean map, where many players include that trait.

If you want to keep making it, then be my guest. I don't care what items you try to make in your matches.

You pointed out that Zephyr capitalizes on inattention. It can be countered simply by the first player who sees it, chatting "Nice Zephyr, Godammit Nappa". Not Good.

...

Maybe it is, overall, a good item, since it can help a player make Top 4. The item itself, becomes weaker as the game continues, but a player who built it early may have one sufficiently take advantage of that.

In the end game, a team which includes Zephyr, ought to be weaker than a comparably strong team, that made a unit-appropriate item instead.

Godammit NappaFeb 23, 20201 votes

Either you are VERY butt hurt over a loss with the item or you really just only like items that boost your team so that you do not have to worry about placement.

I did not say it was a perfect item, nor did I say it was the best winrate item. I said that it is an item that needs to be capitalized on, expanded and balanced on and used as a placement for future items to make the game more interactive to OTHER players. Currently it is not PVP no matter how many people use the phrase "you are playing other players". It is a game where you make your team, hopefully better than other teams, and hope to be granted slightly better more synergistic items to your team comp than the opponents. That is the definition of a PVE.

So before you down the item, remember I said it is just the only item in the game that you DIRECTLY interact with as both a player and opponent. There needs to be more of that, items that you have to pay attention to, and also show who you are playing next to start to make players feel more involved. Currently placement is NEAR pointless, it needs a buff

True GarenFeb 23, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Godammit Nappa,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=Y2NEA1As,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2020-02-23T08:30:49.266+0000)

Either you are VERY butt hurt over a loss with the item or you really just only like items that boost your team so that you do not have to worry about placement.

I did not say it was a perfect item, nor did I say it was the best winrate item. I said that it is an item that needs to be capitalized on, expanded and balanced on and used as a placement for future items to make the game more interactive to OTHER players. Currently it is not PVP no matter how many people use the phrase "you are playing other players". It is a game where you make your team, hopefully better than other teams, and hope to be granted slightly better more synergistic items to your team comp than the opponents. That is the definition of a PVE.

So before you down the item, remember I said it is just the only item in the game that you DIRECTLY interact with as both a player and opponent. There needs to be more of that, items that you have to pay attention to, and also show who you are playing next to start to make players feel more involved. Currently placement is NEAR pointless, it needs a buff

Nah, I hardly see people even making it anymore. As I said, it's very easy to counter. I really don't care if you make them or not. But if your rationale that the item is good, because the enemy isn't paying attention... that's probably the worst reason to make any item.

If you want to make your team, better than the others, and encourage synergy... difficult to see how a generalized CC item like Zephyr fits in there.

By experimentation, have also discovered that Zephyr either doesn't seem to affect certain champion effectiveness when they are hit with it, or, Zephyr can actually work against the enemy team, by preserving a low mana carry from injury for the first six seconds.

There are probably more effective ways of using it. But there are also more effective items to make.