TFT just reminded me why I quit Hearthstone

5 Dollar Holler·Jul 28, 2019·31 votes·13,470 views

It was so frustrating in TFT, being the winner of a game, and then the next game getting hosed with things like no items in the first three minion waves - all gold - and/or not getting your first 2-star from the 1-2 costs you're working on until after Krugs. The RNG is insane in its ebb and flow, and then I realized, hey isn't this why I quit Hearthstone and went to games more focused on skill than dice rolling?

Making that connection is significant, in that now I can play normal League and throw TFT to the birds.

41 Comments

DisulfiramJul 28, 201915 votes

First 3 rolls: "oh cool, 3 yordles, guess I'm going yordles this game" never sees another yordle in the whole match

Unless you give up and go for a full type switch. Then, after selling all your yordles (and only then), you will get every missing yordle. All in the same shop roll.

KanzlerJul 29, 20194 votes

Just yesterday, I got 4 graves in a single shop roll. So I'm like, ok, and buy them all. At that point, I was 2 Graves away from a 3 star graves. Didn't see a single graves again for the rest of the game until the very shop roll after I sold them.

I really hate that shit.

AletheiacracyJul 29, 20196 votes

when you sell champs they go back to the pool, later game means less pool variety- and if you sell 2 silvers and a bronze youre adding 7 of that one champ back into the pool.

BobaFlautistJul 29, 20191 votes

I mean once people start dying the pool starts opening up again

ScramrailsJul 29, 20192 votes

Im convinced there is some sort of "buyback" system in place because the number of times I sell a champion that I literally havent seen another of in a dozen shops will suddenly be in every single shop after I sell them. It happens often enough that it cant just be statistically occuring at random.

LeetriJul 29, 20191 votes

That's just because you've just added a bunch of that champion back into the pool. Say there's 1 Garen left in the pool out of 50 units. You got a 1/50 (2%) chance to get the last Garen. If you sell your 2 silvers and 2 bronzes you've just added 8 Garens into the pool. That gives you a 9/58 (15,5%) chance to get a Garen. And since you're presented with 5 choices that increases your chances of getting at least 1 Garen.

At the end of it all it's just a random chance. You can flip a coin a billion times and only get Tails. It's extremely unlikely, but statistically it has a chance to happen.

ScramrailsJul 29, 20191 votes

Or like when you sell your Veigar you got on round 4 becaust its now round 10 and you havent seen a single other Veigar but then see him in the 2-3 shops because adding that one Veigar just really messed with the system.

SpaceDonutJul 29, 20191 votes

You're experiencing a thing called survivorship bias. When you sell a champ and don't see any more copies afterward, you forget about it. When you sell a champ and see two copies in three rolls, you think "damn the game has it out for me." Over time only the times RNG screwed you are memorable, so you think these events are more common than they really are.

phodaJul 30, 20191 votes

Biggest reason people stay bronze and people leave game. People dont realize how hard it is to get kyle, swain, gnar, anivia. Lots of new players see nobles as strong and get 4 easily even 5 with leona then no kyle and lose so they blame game. Its not game fault but people expecting they need to get what they want and not adapting to situation. Yorldes are pretty hard to play unless you get early gnar and reward is too big, same with imperials and nobles and glacials.

People dont understand then blame the game.

Nea104Jul 28, 201911 votes

Calling "tactics" an RNG-based game :D

TerozuJul 28, 20192 votes

Tactics refers to proper positioning.

So since positioning is literally the only skill thing available, it works.

Nea104Jul 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Tactics refers to proper positioning.

So since positioning is literally the only skill thing available, it works.

You don't and can't know who are you gonna face(*), so you can't plan anything... Therefore, there's no tactics involved :P Only pre-made stuff.

(*): in the very last rounds, when there are only 2 or 3 people left, you actually could plan something, BUT... your opponents are still gonna move their troops too, so it's still random / pre-made stuff ^^

Janna Me FiddleJul 28, 20195 votes

You can plan for comps by looking at what your opponents have, how they're all positioning and what items they have.

Early looking can make a difference as to planning what comp you go and what you deny. Taking Aatroxes and Kennens out of the pool and holding onto them can deny power spikes for instance and even force them off of comps

If you see a lot of folks using Assassins, you know to shift your positioning so your backline is protected, if you see a lot of glacials, you space them out, if demons, you put your least relevant unit to the front as bait. You plan against the majority and tech against the others later.

Nea104Jul 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Janna Me Fiddle,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=WVlEXhUg,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-28T20:55:19.031+0000)

You can plan for comps by looking at what your opponents have, how they're all positioning and what items they have.

You can plan, but only statistically, and it's a pretty wide statistics (ie. RNG). Positioning means nothing, since you have 7-6-5-4.. random opponents. And when you get to the final duels, you cannot change your comp anymore; just minor changes in positioning, indeed, but since your opponent will likely do the same, and will move his troops until the very last second, it's still random.

Early looking can make a difference as to planning what comp you go and what you deny. Taking Aatroxes and Kennens out of the pool and holding onto them can deny power spikes for instance and even force them off of comps

Yes, and still your actual composition will be strongly influenced by the cards you get. You can have some partial influence, but it's indeed very partial.

If you see a lot of folks using Assassins, you know to shift your positioning so your backline is protected, if you see a lot of glacials, you space them out, if demons, you put your least relevant unit to the front as bait. You plan against the majority and tech against the others later.

No, it doesn't work this way: you space your guys in order to face glacials, and you randomly get an assassin opponent. Or vice versa. You can "plan against the majority", but it's still gambling in a major portion.

Plus, don't forget that some combinations (Knights..) are awful, and other ones are broken. So you still are compelled to look for busted champs no matter what, and to skip others no matter what.

(anyway, RNG- based still doesn't mean you can play it blindfolded :P)

Janna Me FiddleJul 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You can plan, but only statistically, and it's a pretty wide statistics (ie. RNG). Positioning means nothing, since you have 7-6-5-4.. random opponents. And when you get to the final duels, you cannot change your comp anymore; just minor changes in positioning, indeed, but since your opponent will likely do the same, and will move his troops until the very last second, it's still random.

Positioning can mean the difference between a heavy wipe or getting it down to the last unit. Mitigating loss (stalling) can be the difference between you getting to a power spike point or dying just before it.

Yes, and still your actual composition will be strongly influenced by the cards you get. You can have some partial influence, but it's indeed very partial.

I've won games by grabbing 2 Aatroxes out of the pool and holding them, my team was strong enough to beat down the level 2 aatrox, had I left the Aatroxes in the pool, it would have increased the likelihood of the other guy getting Aatrox 3 and winning. Denying pieces is a legit strategy especially in the final 4.

No, it doesn't work this way: you space your guys in order to face glacials, and you randomly get an assassin opponent. Or vice versa. You can "plan against the majority", but it's still gambling in a major portion.

It's how you stack that matters. currently one of the most effective position strategies is to line up with a disposable unit at the front and a disposable unit farthest away, your core pieces are in the center.

Plus, don't forget that some combinations (Knights..) are awful, and other ones are broken. So you still are compelled to look for busted champs no matter what, and to skip others no matter what.

(anyway, RNG- based still doesn't mean you can play it blindfolded :P)

Knights are getting buffed, some Knights aren't actually too bad (Sej and Poppy are pretty solid, Garen is good if you're going nobles, Darius is good if you're going Imperials) the synergy itself is poor and the units are more a supplement to whatever comp you're looking toward.

TerozuJul 28, 20192 votes

Actually it shows you your next opponent in the prep stage just before.

So you can position from there.

Nea104Jul 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Actually it shows you your next opponent in the prep stage just before.

So you can position from there.

What?

https://imgur.com/a/T0fkvVY

ZephyrDrakeJul 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Calling "tactics" an RNG-based game :D

Yes, sorry but there is a huge difference between "strategy" and "tactics" and the meaning of "tactics" actually fit pretty well with the game.

Nea104Jul 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yes, sorry but there is a huge difference between "strategy" and "tactics" and the meaning of "tactics" actually fit pretty well with the game.

I don't know where you notice tactics or strategy in this game, besides a basic money management and the rush to get to one of the most busted pre-made comps the current meta suggests...

AAC WrathJul 28, 201911 votes

No you are literally just bad at the game. Dogdogdog is grandmaster with a 39% WINrate, meaning he gets 1st out of 8 39% of the time. You literally aren't good enough to comprehend the game and make good decisions given certain elements.

You are iron 1 with 0 wins, 11 losses.

https://tracker.gg/tft/profile/riot/NA/5%20Dollar%20Holler/overview

I'm trash, I'm in mid silver and I'm still trying to comprehend the game. But to say "wahh! I just get unlucky and that's why I lose!". So many players can take your losing "hand", and win with it against trash iron players. Get a coach

Extreme Bad LuckJul 29, 20194 votes

I agree with the OP about the RNG. It's garbage and it's too much. Plus the current meta makes it even worse, either race with the others to build the same crap comp's or use something inferior, useless build/comp. With items, you can't really plan ahead even with the "bad luck protection" since you may not even survive that long or be on really low health + the reroll mechanic also can screw you giving nothing while you spend a ton of gold. I don't blame the proc chances, those are fine and work 2 way.

A bit less RNG really would be nice.

Perhaps the next patch will solve some things.

R0XTARJul 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=AAC Wrath,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=WVlEXhUg,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-07-28T19:04:29.377+0000)

No you are literally just bad at the game. Dogdogdog is grandmaster with a 39% WINrate, meaning he gets 1st out of 8 39% of the time. You literally aren't good enough to comprehend the game and make good decisions given certain elements.

You are iron 1 with 0 wins, 11 losses.

https://tracker.gg/tft/profile/riot/NA/5%20Dollar%20Holler/overview

I'm trash, I'm in mid silver and I'm still trying to comprehend the game. But to say "wahh! I just get unlucky and that's why I lose!". So many players can take your losing "hand", and win with it against trash iron players. Get a coach

this doesn't mean anything seeing as how i got 2nd to 4th place in almost all my games and it shows that I have 24 losses? That site doesn't work worth shit if its saying if you're not in 1st, you're last.

CytheGuyJul 28, 20195 votes

I mean, compared to other card games Hearthstone really has the least RNG out of all of them, because decks are only 30 cards and you can have duplicates, which means that in a good deck you should be running through the whole thing 3/4 games, where the last 1/4 games are the stomps and concessions. The skill in card games comes from building a deck that manages to accomplish its goal while also have contingency plans in place. Hearthstone doesn't have that much of the latter aspect because it's more of win/lose on a deck vs deck basis, which is due to such a small deck size.

I think we all get why you're deciding to put TFT on the backburner, but your analogy doesn't really hold up.

comport9Jul 28, 20198 votes

Your assessment of Hearthstones RNG is completely wrong. First off, just because it only has 30 cards, compared to a card game like Magic that has 60, doesn't mean that there is less RNG. If you compare the two, 30 cards of duplicates means that there are 15 different cards that may be selected at any one time. Whereas in magic, while you have 60 cards, nearly half of those is land, the remaining cards can have up to 4 copies.

So from that perspective, Magic has less RNG. However, the card-drawing mechanic of Hearthstone is the LEAST of the RNG element.

Magic has NO RNG beyond the card drawing. Whereas in Hearthstone, many cards have RNG built in. For everything from what can attack, how much damage they deal, to whom they deal it, to entire effects being completely randomized. When you literally have no way on knowing if playing a card is the right plan, even IF you knew your opponents cards AND the cards and their locations in both decks, THAT'S RNG to the extreme. Which is what Hearthstone delivers.

The OP is completely correct in his assertion that too much RNG ruins games for players that are looking to win through skill.

LarrietJul 29, 20191 votes

Magic has NO RNG beyond the card drawing

There are lots of cards that use dice and coin flips, no? And some that require you to make a blind choice, which isn't actually random but certainly isn't something you can deliberately plan.

Vah MedohJul 29, 20191 votes

And you see none of them being played (coin/dice luck), unless you want to play that specifically for fun and see what luck decides (I played a coin flip deck).

CytheGuyJul 29, 20191 votes

Completely disregarding lands when you consider how many/what specific cards are in a deck is a fatal mistake if you're deckbuilding. In hearthstone the cards you draw will always do something, whereas in Magic you can just draw a hand with 5/7 lands, or even worse run into a stretch of lands when drawing for upkeep.

In my experience, there's a lot more draw cards in Hearthstone. Almost every hero has a way to draw more cards and sift through what you have faster. In MTG, not every archetype of deck has the freedom to add in a bunch of card draw beyond what they get from the draw phase. This means that in Hearthstone you will be able to find what cards you need in particular much more easily, reducing the RNG of drawing.

When you put an RNG card into your hearthstone deck you are essentially agreeing "I understand that this card can and will do random things. It's my fault if I lose to bad RNG." You can build a deck with no RNG cards. In TFT there is no way to play the game without RNG directly affecting you.

hrooza dota Jul 29, 20191 votes

pokemon tcg have the least rng out of any card game hands down, of course thats if you look at competitive plays since decks have tons of search tons of draw and tons of search [yes i said that twice because theres way to many] .

and if we compare it to another card game of same style shadowverse will have less rng, deck is made of 40 cards but can have 3 duplicates instant of 2 and 3 of any legendary you want instant of 1 so you can have 13 unique card with 1 card as tech instant of having 15 unique card in your deck, and you can have any legendary with 3/40 draw chance instant of 1/30

Janna Me FiddleJul 28, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=5 Dollar Holler,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=WVlEXhUg,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-28T12:35:23.700+0000)

It was so frustrating in TFT, being the winner of a game, and then the next game getting hosed with things like no items in the first three minion waves - all gold - and/or not getting your first 2-star from the 1-2 costs you're working on until after Krugs. The RNG is insane in its ebb and flow, and then I realized, hey isn't this why I quit Hearthstone and went to games more focused on skill than dice rolling?

Making that connection is significant, in that now I can play normal League and throw TFT to the birds.

Mate, if it was all RNG with my luck I'd be wallowing in Iron.

It isn't all RNG, it's about planning, strategy and positioning, using what is available to you.

PzyXoJul 28, 20193 votes

Tactics

Foooz8Jul 28, 20192 votes

You are right in the sense that item rng does have a huge factor in what place you get but so does what items you combine, how you position, knowing the meta comps, knowing when to roll and when to econ. I recently hit grandmasters on NA and started a new account on EU and have only got 1st place in my first 6 games, i can assure you its not cuz of luck. Yea i spend alot of time learning the game and researching but thats the same in any game you want to play if you want to be good at the game. Its wrong to just say its RNG items blah blah cuz if you played against me 100 games u would win less than 10 of those im sure.

Jennifer420Jul 28, 20192 votes

so because you wanted more strategic gameplay... you quit tft and went back to normal lol? wheres the strategic element in normal lol? its literally: HEY HAVE MORE DAMAGE AHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!

iainB85Jul 29, 20192 votes

At least in Hearthstone it's a known RNG quantity. You actually build your deck and it's a staple of any card game as to what you draw after shuffling is RNG.

TFT, on the other hand, is just like "LOL YOU GET NO ITEM FOR NO GOOD REASON".

LarrietJul 29, 20192 votes

You could've just shortened this to "I don't like card games"; it's never about individual wins or losses, it's about squeezing out the smallest percentage difference you can. That's respectable taste but it's disheartening to see people completely misunderstand that. It's normal for the top players in ~~given card game~~ to win around 54% of games in a round-robin style tournament, and this is no different, except instead of a closed tourney you're looking at the win percentage over a season of games. RNG gives interesting moments to individual games, which is the purpose, and it's totally true that there are uniwinnable games because of it. But if you're actually good, that'll be reflected in your percentage over the whole season.

phodaJul 30, 20192 votes

In lol you need to get 9 other people. 5 enemy to suck and 4 teammates to be good. Even if you get 10/0 you can lose cause your adc initiates fights. Its more rng than this game. There are shitty games when you finish 8th but if youre good you will climb

KillerQueenXIIIJul 29, 20191 votes

It definitely does suck when you get terrible luck, but the game isn't as luck-reliant as you think. If you play smart, you can often force a victory, despite having bad luck for most of the game (I generally have awful luck, but I grab items I need from the carousel, and keep my team comp fairly flexible, so that I can build into several different bonuses if I need to).

AGreatBigGooseJul 29, 20191 votes

Bro. I agree with you on Hearthstone being an RNG fest (even more so than Vanguard, with its nickname Lucksack Vanguard), but TFT is not even close to that.

It's about managing your picks and your gold economy. Spend too much money early I guarantee you'll be out of the game by Stage 3. Pick the same units as everyone else they'll stop showing up. These are fundamental things.

Summoner SpeIIJul 29, 20191 votes

at least in tft, with knowledge you can win games. In hearthstone, you have to grind to get packs to get the broken net deck

EugenerinoJul 29, 20191 votes

Hearthstone is pay to win. You literally have to spend money with expansions every two or so months

Grandpa of RageJul 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=5 Dollar Holler,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=WVlEXhUg,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-07-28T12:35:23.700+0000)

It was so frustrating in TFT, being the winner of a game, and then the next game getting hosed with things like no items in the first three minion waves - all gold - and/or not getting your first 2-star from the 1-2 costs you're working on until after Krugs. The RNG is insane in its ebb and flow, and then I realized, hey isn't this why I quit Hearthstone and went to games more focused on skill than dice rolling?

Making that connection is significant, in that now I can play normal League and throw TFT to the birds.

I agree that there is too much RNG in the game right now, but it also sounds to me like you are misplaying the early game. You should never be in a situation where you have no 2 star until after krugs, that is player error. You may be getting to fixated on a specific build instead of working with what you have. You need to focus on the 1 cost units at the start, that may also be your problem. If you don't get gold in the first creep round, you always sell your 2 cost unit and buy out the whole shop. If you play first creep round properly you will always have at least one 2 star early.