[Analysis] Jungle Timers: the REAL argument

Hyrum Graff·Jun 24, 2014·16 votes·3,190 views

This post is pretty related to this post, we just approach the issue from different angles.

####Premise: We're all OK with the current implementation, where timestamps are given in chat.

From here, I'm going to go step-by-step and show that there is only one argument to be made for why jungle timers are a bad idea. This will let us talk about that argument specifically, so perhaps as a community we can come to an agreement. At the end of this post, I'll give my personal opinion.

What if, when you killed dragon, the time it respawns flashed briefly on your screen, but didn't reappear?

I can't see any argument you can make why that would be a bad thing.

Is the knowledge that dragon takes 6 minutes to respawn, a skill? No; If you don't know that, it's a problem with LoL not teaching you well enough, not a lack of skill.
What about, the ability to do the math for when drag will be up, is that a skill? Well, yes, but LoL isn't a game focused around your ability to do quick addition.

Ok, let's take it a step further:

What if dragon respawn time were timestamped in chat?

Is typing the calculated time into chat, skill? I don't think anybody will argue this is anything but copying.

Another step further:

What if timers were posted on your screen (ie, “drag up at 20:34”) but you weren't given a countdown?

Is it skill, to be able to scroll up in chat? I don't think there's any argument to be made here, either.

And the final step:

What if you were given a countdown timer?

This is the same question as earlier: is quick addition, a relevant skill to LoL? Again, no.

I'm not done. In fact...

#I've made a huge ommision!

####In fact, my ommision is the only valid argument to be made. I'll explain by example.

Consider a Wood 9 support: He watched the LCS, so he knows he should rush sightstone. But he never places a single ward from it. Placing the ward doesn't take any skill. Remembering to place it, does.

This is the same argument to be made for timers; while it may not take any skill to track them, remembering to do so, does take skill.

There's also another, related, argument to be made: that as long as these things take time, you have to make time to do them. If you spend your time typing drag timers, you're not doing other things, like buying items or pushing a lane. The choice, "Do I take the time to write a drag timer, or do I wait until I'm walking back to lane, and risk forgetting?" is a strategic one.

So that's the argument. Now here's my counterargument.

###The Minimap.

Let's pretend for a minute that the Minimap didn't exist, but Riot was considering adding it. There's an argument going on, about whether it decreases the skill cap required for League.

Side 1: The minimap should totally be added. It's all information you can already find by scrolling around the map, so we should make that info more accessable.

Side 2: The minimap should NOT be added. Yes, you have that information, but you have to be looking at the right place, at the right time, to get it. If you don't have map awareness, you're not going to see information. Plus, it makes avoiding ganks waaay too easy, because you can see the jungler coming on your minimap. If you're not checking the river, you deserve to get ganked!

Think about it – if you didn't know what it's like to have a minimap, Side 2 totally makes sense.

But since we do know what it's like, we know that Side 2's argument just doesn't hold up.

Bad players don't use their minimap, and still have bad awareness.

This is the direct counter-argument. The same way you need to remember to type out a drag timer, you need to remember to look at a drag timer. Does it take less work? Of course. Does that mean more players will do it? Probably. Could you make an argument that it decreases the skill cap? Yes, except for this:

Sometimes, I'll look back for the drag timer I typed in chat, but I won't be able to find it in time. In fact, I often don't type out timers, simply because I'm bad at spotting them, and I can't afford to take 10-15 seconds of gameplay time to find them. As someone who would type them out, does that make me a worse player? It makes me blind, but not a worse player, I think. The worse player, who doesn't type jungle timers, also won't use the timers that they're given. And if they do, here's the second point:

Other bad players use their minimap, but still make the wrong decisions.

A bad Ashe sees Vi coming to gank her, but decides to stick around for an extra cs or two before retreating to turret, and dies for it. GG EZ.

You're a top laner. You have low HP (you need to back), have teleport up, and see that drag will be up in a minute. If you're good, you'll go back, head to help with dragon, then teleport top. If you're bad, you'll ignore drag and go stright to top. It's actually debatable which of these is the right decision, based on other factors in the game, but the point is that there's a decision to be made, which takes skill.

This is actually the point that Riot has been making: It's not knowing the information that takes skill, it's what you do with it.

As a third and final point, the decision to spend time typing a drag timer, is essentially the same decision as spending time looking at other lanes instead of your own.

The point is that these aren't decisions you should be making. You should be thinking, "After drag, do we push mid, or go back?" or "Do I run from this gank, or turn to fight?" NOT whether it's worth the time to do something.

This is Riot's other point, You should be fighting your opponents, not the game.

So there's my analysis, and my opinion. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Hyrum Graff

105 Comments

HiphoppopatomusJun 25, 20143 votes

I'm surprised you would bother arguing with zealots :X

The comparison to a given feature (minimap) that we take for granted is a great parallel to the current situation and I completely agree.

I think the people that are upset are the ones that probably keep timers and use them to gain an advantage, and they feel that by giving players that wouldn't normally track the time a timer, they are lessening their advantage. In reality this probably creates MORE options for the skilled player because now you can predict that the enemy will know dragon respawn time and will potentially make a move for it. Ergo, dragon is the new baron where people will suicide to get it at low ELOs.

Edit: Also, the new timers aren't shown if you didn't see the camp die. So tracking timers on buffs that you have stolen and the like, still don't get shown to the enemy. So this change won't give the enemy any more information than they already have.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20144 votes

Zealots

Mackledoge is cool, and we're friendly with each other - we just happen to disagree strongly on this issue.

upset people are the ones who use timers -snip-

Yes, and I agree, which is one of the reasons I think all the fuss will die down a few weeks after timers come to live, and those who kept timers are still able to consistently outplay those who didn't.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20144 votes

Nope, I'm a zealot, coming for you with my pitchfork and torch item 3160 son, best watch yourself

HiphoppopatomusJun 25, 20143 votes

Should be a starcraft zealot! Come at 'em with psionic blades.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

As someone who loves psionics, I like your plan. That being said, I'm awful at Starcraft lol

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20141 votes

Sooo.. I may or may not have a copy of starcraft (brood war) that runs without a CD, that I may or may not be willing to distribute... NOTHING SHALL DESTROY MY ARMY OF CARRIERS.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

Oh great, another game for me to get rekt in -_-

MackleDogeJun 24, 20142 votes

I'm so tired of seeing this garbage. It really is as simple as the fact that someone who voluntarily chose not to keep timers does not deserve the advantage of having that information given to them for free when others expend the effort to keep track of the information, communicate that information, and organize both their actions and their team's actions around that information. Typing out the numbers itself isn't the issue. When has it ever been a good thing to remove a player's choice from the game? The information is already available to everyone, so why should people who choose to be lazy be rewarded? This is an awful decision.

Thanotos OmegaJun 24, 20142 votes

Riot says other wise, I think we will be listening to the people who actually have any say in the matter,

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20142 votes

Players do have a say in the matter.

If you remember, when curse first came out, Riot said they were totally OK with it. Then, there was a huge negative response to that; Riot heard the feedback, and changed their policy to make curse against the Terms of Service.

Thanotos OmegaJun 25, 20141 votes

OK i think we will listen to the people who have actually invested hours of research to figure out how to best make their game work,

Is this more clear on my point?

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20142 votes

It is more clear. However, I still disagree with you. If you consider playing LoL to be research (which, in this case, it is), players have done far more research than Riot could ever hope to do.

Furthermore, players are the future of the game. If people stop playing, LoL doesn't continue to exist. If people aren't having fun, they stop playing.

In this particular case, I think that once the feature is out, this whole sh*tstorm will blow over and it will be no big deal - players will be OK with it. But that doesn't mean that player feedback isn't valuable and to be taken seriously.

Thanotos OmegaJun 25, 20141 votes

True but remember all the people who use these forums together equal only a tiny bit of the games player base, Also we are the same people who have threads Calling a champ invincible, and calling for buffs because they can't even compete, this is a place where people don't understand that the pros use a limited pool because for them 3% matters enough to be a factor, so i just don't put much stock in the community as a whole when it comes to balance,

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20143 votes

Balance? Sure.

But this isn't about balance, it's about game design. And I think game design is something that players can and should have feedback towards. It doesn't mean that they players are always right and that Riot should always do what we say. But it does mean that they should always listen to our feedback, and take it into consideration.

Thanotos OmegaJun 25, 20143 votes

True, I guess i am just a little wound up over the other guys complaints,

Hyrum GraffJun 24, 20149 votes

Skill in League is making the right decisions. Skill is being mechanically competent. Skill isn't, "not being lazy," as you put it, or as I would put it, "Being willing to fight with the game."

What's your response to this: "I don't keep timers, because I have trouble finding them in chat, so they're useless to me"?

MackleDogeJun 24, 20142 votes

You need information to make the right decisions, gathering and managing information is a skill. You can have all the mechanics you want, but if you don't have any map awareness (which is knowledge) you'll get caught out and your mechanics won't matter. It's the exact same thing here, if you aren't good at keeping and managing timers to appropriately use the information, you don't deserve to have it handed to you for free. Practice. Update the chat by repeating the timers. Work on managing the Z key usage to find them. You practice mechanics. You practice teamfights. You practice rotations. Practice this too. Quit being lazy. Making this game easier for no reason is absurd, especially when the action isn't difficult to begin with, it just requires you to actually pay attention and be responsible.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20146 votes

if you don't have any map awareness (which is knowledge) you'll get caught out and your mechanics won't matter.

What's your response to my analogy to the minimap?

Making this game easier for no reason is absurd
-snip-

Ah. I think this is where our difference in opinion really is. See, I think that making the game unnecessarily harder is absurd.

Let's be clear: I love playing Halo 2's campaign on legendary. *Unreasonably hard is a fun thing - in PvE games. * But in a PvP game, I want to be fighting my opponents, not the game. I want to win because I outplayed them, not because I was better at keeping track of information.

Here's a good parallel: Halo introduces a new feature: in PvP, you can no longer see how much ammo is left in your active clip. The feature is there to add another level of skill/mastery to the game - now you have to keep track of how many shots you've fired, too. If I were playing the Halo campaign, this might be cool - it's another level of difficulty. But in the PvP version of the game, it's just not something I want to be thinking about.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

I think the minimap is entirely different and can't be compared validly to the displaying of timers. Just like comparing displaying timers to displaying a glowing aura around a minion you can last hit is an unfair comparison. They are two blatantly different things.

I discussed this with ArmaMalum the other night. League has the interactions between you and other players, PvP, and then the interactions between you and the situation of the game or environmental things in the game, PvE. You farming jungle creeps isn't PvP. You buying items in the fountain isn't PvP. Timers is divided up into two sections. Section One is clearing the camps and either taking or not taking the timer, that is straight up PvE with no interaction between you and other players. An opponent can't use an ultimate to alter the timer or to stop you from typing the timer. Then there is Section Two, which is what you do with that information, how you share that information, and how you use that information to acquire more information which is PvP. This doesn't change the PvP portion of the game at all, it literally just entirely removes mastery of the PvE organization that allows for a decision based interaction from the player.

Also, who are you trying to kid, keeping timers isn't difficult. It's really easy to do and takes very little practice to start but allows for a large amount of nuance in using and adapting.

For the Record: They do have features like that for PvP in games, it's called Hardcore. Wonder why they call it that.....

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20146 votes

Bad comparison -snip-

I know it's not a perfect comparison - I'm using it to illustrate a point: that being given better access to information that you already know is a good thing, and in hindsight it'll seem silly that we're having this argument now.

League has PvP and PvE -snip-

It's true that league has this. But I think that the PvE elements of League are much less compelling - there are plenty of PvE games I would rather play - then the PvP elements.

I would like to see Jungling as a kind of chess game between you and the enemy jungler - trying to keep track of where his is and gank/countergank/take objectives/invade accordingly - rather than farmville, where you're just trying to maximize the efficiency of your jungle route by taking every camp and buff as it spawns.

Say you have timers, and you know the enemy has a timer on your blue-side blue buff. You're playing a tank jungler, and they're playing lee sin. You're pretty damn sure they're going to invade. So you ward your blue and gank botlane, getting a kill and a dragon off of it, while still knowing your blue timer. Congrats, you just outplayed the other guy.

The less information available to you, the more jungling becomes about who has better information, and the less it becomes about actual strategic decisions. Presonally, I'd prefer more strategy.

Keeping timers is easy

If it were hard, I think I'd have less of an argument for it being an integrated game function.

Hardcore mode

I guess that's appealing to some people, but not me. I want my PvP games to be about PvP, not PvE.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

silly

You're right it is silly, because despite this being an awful decision and plenty of people speaking up in opposition (Reddit, GD, people on here, discussion in game) Riot isn't going to listen. Because they don't change decisions like this. I think that's sad.

And just some information for you, there was a straw poll done on Reddit that hit front page in regards to this and over half (56%) of the community that voted was against jungle timers while only a quarter that voted (23%) were strictly in favor. If that doesn't say something in regards to this situation, then what is the point of us bothering to share how we feel with Riot?

I think that the PvE elements

You. You think. So that should discredit and disregard over half of the community that thinks otherwise? Sorry, don't buy that one. Good junglers do all of those things while keeping timers and working with those timers. The timers are what help them be good junglers. This decision punishes good junglers by removing an advantage they had over people that were lazy, misinformed, or didn't think the information was important. That is unacceptable to me. If my opponent chooses not to pay attention to information, they should pay the price. Should my ammo count always be displayed to my enemy in Halo? That sounds stupid to me. Since it shouldn't be about getting the information but how we play around it then we should just share LCS team's strategy right? Of course not. It's absurd.

If it were hard

Some people don't find CS'ing hard. What's your point? If something is easy to me we should make it easy to all the other players too? Ummm....you've got to be kidding...

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20145 votes

You're right it is silly, because despite this being an awful decision and plenty of people speaking up in opposition (Reddit, GD, people on here, discussion in game) Riot isn't going to listen. Because they don't change decisions like this. I think that's sad.

->Riot was originally fine with Curse Voice
->People spoke out against it
->Riot made it against their ToS
->...
->Riot never listens to people?

And just some information for you, there was a straw poll done on Reddit that hit front page in regards to this and over half (56%) of the community that voted was against jungle timers while only a quarter that voted (23%) were strictly in favor. If that doesn't say something in regards to this situation, then what is the point of us bothering to share how we feel with Riot?

If people still oppose them after they come to live, let's take another look. I think people that actively pay attention to timers will still have a huge advantage - that is, not much will change, with this addition, and a few weeks after they're brought to live, all the fuss will peter out.

You. You think. So that should discredit and disregard over half of the community that thinks otherwise? Sorry, don't buy that one. Good junglers do all of those things while keeping timers and working with those timers. The timers are what help them be good junglers. This decision punishes good junglers by removing an advantage they had over people that were lazy, misinformed, or didn't think the information was important. That is unacceptable to me. If my opponent chooses not to pay attention to information, they should pay the price.

Should my ammo count always be displayed to my enemy in Halo?

That would be like sharing enemy cooldowns. Of course it shouldn't be shared. Enemy cooldowns are like tower range indicators - they upset the balance of power in player interactions. But jungle spawn rates are static, and are not players.

Since it shouldn't be about getting the information but how we play around it then we should just share LCS team's strategy right?

I'm not sure exactly what this means.

Some people don't find CS'ing hard. What's your point? If something is easy to me we should make it easy to all the other players too? Ummm....you've got to be kidding...

My point is that everybody finds it easy, once they know how to do it. The only times people don't keep timers are:

Before they know about timers. This is not a good thing - game skill shouldn't be about how far along the learning curve you are (I mean, to some extent it has to be, but the point is that the learning curve should be as fast as possible).
They forget. If people forget to keep timers, they're going to forget to look at them, too - these are the same people who ward their lane and then get ganked by a jungler who was sitting in the warded bush for 30 seconds.
They are "too lazy." This is the only argument left - and it's the one I said was a valid argument in my OP - I just disagree with it. I don't think that "level of motivation to do work" is a skill worth including in League.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20146 votes

One further point - GD and reddit aren't necessarily a representative sample of the LoL population, either. Furthermore, people who are upset by the change, are more likely to be vocal about their feelings, leading to a false sense of the community's feeling towards timers.

In the same way, the fact that my comments have been upvoted and yours have been downvoted, doesn't mean that the majority of the LoL community agrees with me.

tl;dr I'd rather keep the argument about that merits of timers, not how popular they are.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

One further point

I'm getting downvoted and your getting upvoted because this is a circle jerk thread.

/thread

Also at this point your just talking in circles saying the same thing over and over again and quite frankly I'm tired of having to repeat myself because it is obvious you just don't get it. If I choose to keep timers and my opponent doesn't (for whatever reason, it really doesn't actually matter at all) I have an advantage and I deserve that advantage. That isn't debatable.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20144 votes

circle-jerk

I think it's also in part due to your attitude :P

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

Downvote thingy

Hmmm alright, that's a good point. Though I'd argue that the particular consensus in one thread doesn't speak to the consensus of the community or will even match a thread about a similar topic. To many variables in it to me. Are the people viewing all voting? Are they all voting for the right reasons? Etc etc. Kind of why I'm not a big fan of the upvote/downvote system, but that's neither here nor there.

Circle

Damn, I've got nothing for that. GG

Comparison

So practice it? You practice CS, practice keeping and updating timers so it doesn't take you 15 seconds? I just feel like that is such a cop out, I went through the effort to work and practice on it, I don't see why others can't do the same. This section I think is still circle talk.

NO CIRCLE SECTION!!!* Okay, we can talk about this one, this is new. Let's see, I can kind of see where you're coming from with this one. Personally, I think this is just a differentiation between players. Some of us are better than others at some things but not at other things. Let's say I'm better at keeping timers (or more accurately typing and finding the timer) and you are better at CS'ing. In some matchups the CS you might lose from checking the timer is less than the amount I lose because I'm shit at CS'ing. In some matchups it will be more. To me that is part of the game. It's like some people being really good at the strategy and team play portion but bad at mechanics while some are really good at mechanics but lack the strategy and map awareness portion. It goes both ways, and I feel like that is okay to have.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

Circle Jerk

Pfft, they don't have to like me that's fine. I just want them to use the system correctly so that the CB doesn't turn into GB where it is a battle of who can jerk off the most people for upvotes.

Everybody

The fact that it is such minimal effort with such a great reward is why the people who aren't willing to put forth that tiny amount of effort don't deserve to have it handed to them for free. We need to stop this whole hand holding garbage in games, it is becoming rather pathetic.

Dedicated Notepad

This falls under compromise to me. I don't think its necessary but I'd much rather have it where someone has to type out the timer in their notepad for timers than have them have to do absolutely nothing.

Compromise

You actually responded to it already somewhere else.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20142 votes

I think I'm out of things to say, that aren't just places where we fundamentally disagree.

In other news have you seen the size of this thread compared to other CB threads? We've got nearly twice as many comments as the next largest thread :D

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

Thread Size

No kidding, this thing got crazy pretty fast. We may not agree and I don't think we managed to convince each other of anything at all, but it was good having this conversation, I can't speak for you but I can say that you did bring up points that I hadn't thought of or hadn't been addressed to me yet, so thank you for that.

Angry MonsterJun 25, 20142 votes

keeping track of info is a skill. Those that do not keep timers cause its hard to do. All i say is to them is you(the person not tracking) deserve your bronze

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20149 votes

Keeping track of info is a skill, but it's a bookkeeping skill, which is, IMO, not what LoL is about.

Angry MonsterJun 25, 20143 votes

Well i can isolate plenty of real world skills and not make them part of League.

It can and has been a part of league. For a long time. The fact that pro teams mis time dragon and baron proves that it is a in game skill.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20146 votes

Okay, maybe I should revise my comment - "not what LoL should by about, IMO"

Angry MonsterJun 25, 20142 votes

and that is why your argument fails. Its pure opinion and preference.

A strong argument is purely about the facts. When you add pure speculation and personal preference, you lose the merit. Cause now your argument says X (correctly) then says Y(only to make sound cool.)

The facts
Are that some people want this.
It could make the game easier.
It is taking some skill away from the game

and that the problem right their. Their are no more relevant facts. Should it be in the game? well the game has done well with out timers. Some people say its hard to learn the timers. Its no harder than googling or even going in game and testing.

Math is always going to be part for the game. When u are jungling and have the smite and your team is doing baron u have to know when to smite. Wait till the exact number and u are actually going to be late. So u have to do improve math.

You are not fighting the game. You are fighting your humanity when it comes to timers. And the best people always best themselves and rise to the occasion.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20144 votes

and that is why your argument fails. Its pure opinion and preference.

A strong argument is purely about the facts. When you add pure speculation and personal preference, you lose the merit. Cause now your argument says X (correctly) then says Y(only to make sound cool.)

My analysis of the situation, is purely logical, as intended. My argument for timers being in the game, is based on my opinion, also as intended.

That's because, as I pointed out in my [Analysis], there is a valid argument to be made for keeping timers out of the game. I don't agree with it, but it is there. My intent in the second half of my post was to present my personal opinion, as a basis for starting a discussion - because if I stopped after the Analysis, people would read my post, be like "yep" and move on. I wanted to create discussion.

Timers are as simple as googling -snip-

I didn't know what the timers were until well after I was level 30. This is an issue. That information should be clear.

Math is part of the game. Smite = math -snip-

Math is certainly part of the pre-game. I (personally) do calculations to maximize the effectiveness of my runes and masteries. But in-game, I don't think math is really part of it.

There's basically only two arguments I could see for math being involved in the game (sans timers):

Damage dealt to things with autos and abilities - you have to calculate armor/mr vs damage. Let's be honest, nobody does this.
How much an item will benefit you - ie, will penetration or more AP make you deal more damage? Let's be honest here too, you pick these items based on what you think at the time - nobody actually does calculations in-game (though they may have beforehand).

Smite is about watching the numbers go down, and estimating the rate that baron is taking damage - it's reflexes, not math. Nobody's saying, "Baron's hp is going down at 300 per second, and he has 1900 hp left, so i'm going to close my eyes and wait 3 seconds, then smite for 1k. You watch, and when it gets close to 1k, you smite. That's not math.

You are fighting your humanity when it comes to timers.

What? You mean, my laziness? You mean, I'm choosing whether or not I want to fight the game, and if I choose not to fight the game, I've lost?

lm Krueger mlJun 24, 20143 votes

The problem isn't that people who regularly do this currently will lose an advantage.

The problem is that in order to do it at all you are forced to stop playing the game entirely, do some mathematics and then make a note of the timer before you can then start playing again.

That's just not fun no matter how you cut it.

MackleDogeJun 24, 20142 votes

I actually have a lot of fun keeping the timers and sharing it with my team so we can set up and make picks around buffs and objectives. Strategy is just as much a part of the game as individual performance and players should be rewarded for making a conscious effort to participate in that side of the game. This change devalues those efforts and removes an entire section of player choice and differentiation between players.

Also, people who are good at keeping timers never stop moving to type them out, so you aren't stopping anything at all. It takes maybe a second and a half to type out a timer. Type it while you are walking to the next camp, recalling, respawning, or AA'ing a turret after an dragon fight win.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20142 votes

I don't think that the strategy of making picks around buffs and objectives goes away when you add timers, it just makes it easier to do so. Plus, you can still gain an advantage by doing things like approximating the time that they took their buff, by the amount of time left on the buff when you see them.

My issue isn't typing the timers, it's finding them again later, when I need them. There's rarely a point when you have 15 seconds to scroll back through chat, and sometimes it takes me longer than that.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

Why should it be easier to do so? If you aren't going through the effort to do so you don't deserve the reward, plain and simple. That's like saying I don't pay any attention to any objectives whatsoever but Dragon is important so they give me timers and warnings for free even though in this example I'm a bad player whose lack of objective focus means that I would never make plays around those things because I don't know they are happening.

Oh wait, that is exactly what they are doing....awkward....

Jesus Christ type it again and learn to use the Z key. You not using a simple solution doesn't merit taking out an important portion of the game, why is this even a discussion?

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20141 votes

I don't think you get what I'm saying.

We take drag, get timestamp
I type the timer in chat
3 min later, I go to look for it again
I hit the z key
I scroll up
It takes me ~15-20 seconds to find the timer

15-20 seconds is not a reasonable amount of time to spend getting information that's necessary for me to make plays. Especially since I'm probably going to want to check it again, when drag is almost up. In those 15 seconds, I'm missing CS and experience, or I'm in danger of being engaged on while my full attention isn't in lane, and my map awareness is suffering because I'm tunneled in on the chat box, trying to find my timer.

I have a question: would you be opposed to a special chat box for timers only? That is, essentially a notepad, that's separate from chat.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20142 votes

Didn't see this comment, we are all over this thread haha. Let's see here, I've already addressed this repeatedly, type it out again at intervals if you don't want to scroll, you ignoring a simple solution isn't a viable excuse to me.

The question! Ummm, I think if you had a special chat box specifically for timers I'd be really happy with that. If you had to type in the timer yourself. Hell, I would even compromise on this issue if it was an automated timer you had to manually activate. By the way, I don't know if we have addressed this, but I really dislike the fact that if we have the timers, they actually count down. Talk about being spoon fed. Just give a timestamp in the slot, why isn't that enough? At least that would offer the chance of having people who don't actively check it miss it.

Overall I don't think this is game breaking, I don't even think it is that significant of a change. I do think it is an unnecessary change, I do think that it is rather rubbish that Riot does this for "clarity" but doesn't fix the bugged ally ult timers, and I do think that this negatively impacts players that go through the effort to actively keep timers. But even having said all that, this won't make me stop playing. I'll be the first to admit that yes, I might end up being entirely wrong about this entire thing, and if I am you guys can call me out and I'll publicly apologize to each of individually if that is what you want. This isn't about me wanting privilege, this isn't about me wanting to argue. This is about me legitimately believing that this isn't the right decision for the game and that this is a bad direction to take design in.

LynkfoxJun 25, 20143 votes

I keep timers and love to do so... for the ganks and plays we can make because of them. Now, don't get me wrong I'm a shitty player, i have horrible CS and bad map awareness... other than timers. For some reason i really enjoy the timer game and really keep them hard.

That being said... its not really keeping the timers I enjoy. And I think this is the same for you: It's making the plays /because/ you kept those timers. That wont change with timers integrated into the system. Hell man, I use a program on my phone to keep timers most of the time, so do tons of other people - Riot has seen this and been like... well now someone has an advantage over something we /can't/ police, why not make it integrated?

The timers are already there anyways, just hidden - If the camp is cleared it pops up on your mini map when it respawns. Being in place to take advantage of that or not? Thats skill. Writing down 4 numbers and a couple of letters? bookkeeping, and frankly boring.

Hyrum GraffJun 25, 20142 votes

Agreed, with one additional point - that maybe if you're spending less effort keeping timers, you'll be able to pay more attention to your minimap, etc.

TheTuringMachineJun 25, 20145 votes

In-game jungle timers will encourage more focus on gameplay, tactics, and mechanical skill in a skill-based and strategical video game. As someone who plays League of Legends to have fun, improve my skill, and to (more importantly) play the game, I am in favor of changes that encourage actually playing the game well.

It will allow jungling to become about good macro, playing the map, and influencing how the game progresses in an active manner.

**People who don't put effort into tracking buffs will still be punished **by not getting the countdown timers. Not to mention that gameplay in a video game is important and creating mechanics that further motivate actual gameplay and meaningful decisions are good.

I don't know about you, but I play games to experience gameplay. Typing in chat is not gameplay, and even worse, typing in chat distracts from gameplay.

While I appreciate your opinion, I do not agree.

MackleDogeJun 25, 20141 votes

Buddy I've been over every single thing you've said already in this thread and I don't mean to be rude, but I'm not going to repeat myself just because you didn't look through and read, sorry.

TheTuringMachineJul 11, 20141 votes

This was the only comment I've made in this forum....

And I mostly made this post to emphasize that adding more gameplay to a game is good. I read your points, but I didn't agree with where the focus of your comments was at. Your focus was not on gameplay, which should always be paramount in comparison to anything else.

MackleDogeJul 11, 20141 votes

Please re-read what I wrote. I have already covered everything you mentioned in your comment in this thread through various other comments. Not sure how that wasn't obvious. And I definitely covered gameplay and how this relates, you're lack of understanding, not my problem.

TheTuringMachineJul 14, 20141 votes

I read what you wrote, I'm just saying that the focus of your comments and your complaints are on things that damage gameplay, and I think that is a bad thing. You don't have to be so rude or dismissive just because you think you're right.

I'm sorry if we disagree, but I'm simply saying that game mechanics should focus on gameplay, regardless of your previous points which favor otherwise.

Thanks for not being dismissive though. /s

MackleDogeJul 14, 20141 votes

your comments and your complaints are on things that damage gameplay, and I think that is a bad thing

that game mechanics should focus on gameplay

Uhhh...wut? Should it be about gameplay or not, what are you even saying? I'm dismissive because you don't add a single thing to the conversation, you come in here and necro the conversation, say absolutely nothing to add to the conversation, and then get butthurt when I tell you everything has already been discussed and I'm not repeating myself just for your sake.

Thanks for making a meaningful contribution to the thread though. /s

MackleDogeJul 15, 20141 votes

My points are that Riot doesn't need to change anything. The current state of the game is perfectly acceptable in regards to jungle timers. It hasn't hurt the game any the entire time League has been operating, it isn't going to suddenly damage the game. I'm not asking for any changes, I'm saying there shouldn't be any changes. It's pretty obvious that you are severely misunderstanding what I am saying or you are blatantly ignoring what I'm actually say it to portray it how you want it. Either way, behavior like that doesn't really warrant much respect from where I'm sitting.