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The Jungle timer debate is a repeat of the MBS debate from StarCraft 2

TheKillerAngel·6/24/2014, 6:05:55 AM·38 votes·1,528 views

For those who don't know, MBS, or multiple building selection, is a feature in most modern RTS games that allows players to select multiple production structures to queue orders. MBS did not exist in the original StarCraft, and players had to select each building individually to queue upgrades or unit production.

This changed in StarCraft 2, where players gained the ability to select groups of buildings at a time to issue orders. This caused a huge controversy, with many players and professionals stating that MBS would lead to a decline in player skill and damage the game, as it would simplify or remove a macro element that so many players had to do to play at a high level. Thousands of posts and articles were written about this, with many arguing for and against MBS. Ultimately, it stayed in the game, as Blizzard wanted players to fight each other rather than fight the UI, and they felt the lack of MBS was really just a hassle.

So, the game gets released and in a month nobody is talking about MBS. It definitely didn't stop StarCraft 2 from being a challenging game and an esport. In hindsight, the debate seems almost silly. Nobody who plays StarCraft 2 now seriously believes that having to individually select buildings to queue up unit production would significantly affect a person's skill.

I think the current controversy over jungle timers is almost an exact mirror of the MBS controversy from StarCraft 2. It's about fighting the UI vs other players. As a support who times objectives and other things, it's a huge hassle for me to have to manually scroll up the chat and have to look for the timestamp that I wrote. Having timers for things like jungle camps and dragons allows me to focus on the bigger picture instead of having to "fight the UI" and scroll through the mess that can be chat, so to speak. I think that after they come out people will realize that there is a lot more to player skill than writing "1425d" and that the overall impact will be minimal to nonexistent.

14 Comments

Jamnon6/24/2014, 10:00:07 AM5 votes

Couldn't agree more. The focus should be on fighting other players, not fighting the UI. {{summoner:2}} This distracts from teamplay / teamwork.

A jungler has enough to focus on and each lane should focus on... laning until team fights. That IS what this game is supposed to be about.

12tales6/24/2014, 2:40:28 PM5 votes

I mean, you can't really call a game competitive unless playing it requires menial, non-interactive bookkeeping. You take that away, and you might as well just open the LCS to bronzies.

[/sarcasm]

CupcakeTrap6/26/2014, 12:57:32 AM3 votes

It's about fighting the UI vs other players.

This is my new favorite way to phrase this.

ModCaptainMårvelous6/24/2014, 6:27:55 PM2 votes

Personally I am curious (and this may have been answered) if the timers are ALWAYS on or if they only start once you've killed a buff that you saw die. That last part is key, because this could make counter-jungling even stronger thanks to having a time for -their- buff when all they can do is guess if you were there or not.

In addition to your example, I think we can also include Marvel vs. Capcom 3's change to the control scheme in replacing the standard system of Light-Med-Heavy for Punches and Kicks to Light-Med-Heavy with a Fourth "Special" button that was usually the launcher and other special nuances per character. Many complained that it dumbed down the system but MvC3 is still popular (if waning due to lack of Capcom's support).

Angry Monster6/24/2014, 5:33:03 PM2 votes

I think that you miss the point of debate. If blizzard had decided to cancel MBS the other side would of dropped the debate also. After X amount of time time you majority of the people just move on.

There was tons of debate(complaining) when League was drastically changed with the change into season 3. Jungle timers and legacy skins are just the most recent debate. We are all saying out point of view.

Are jungle timers a lowering of in game skill(yes , riot even admits it) is it meaningful skill that is being lost? Who knows.

When change is happening everyone wants to put their 2 cents in. you never know if your post with everyone elses will be the tipping point.

Sure people could not post their thoughts on any game. But then the developers would not know what people thought. The jungle timer change is coming cause people were asking for it. Now it is the time for the other side to say why they do not like it. Most were happy to keep quite cause they never thought that it would be implemented.

Yaiga6/24/2014, 1:07:31 PM2 votes

You realize that even if there was an automated time stamp for the objectives that people would still have to scroll up chat in order to see the time stamp that was made. If it became something automated it would mean that junglers would no longer be keeping track on their own due to sheer laziness and would have to scroll up chat and see when their blue buff is supposed to spawn again, where as now they do it manually and retain the time they placed roughly for the respawn. Not to shoot you down or anything, but this idea doesn't have much merit towards it.

Nate GG6/24/2014, 3:42:45 PM2 votes

I personally don't think its writing "1425d" is what makes someone a skilled player. I think it's following up on that. The timer you set can be 5, 6 or 7 minutes into the future and a lot can happen in that time. It is easy to get distracted and forget about the timer 5 minutes after you made it. I think it is a good idea to put the timer on the screen so that you don't have to scroll the chat, but thats about all that should happen. The timers should not be automatic because that leaves for too little counter-play and the timers on the screen should also not have anything that alerts a player when it is getting low. The team that is ready for the timer on their own should have an advantage and if the other team is alerted a minute or so ahead of the timer expiring, that takes this advantage away.

Hyrum Graff6/24/2014, 6:14:32 PM1 votes

I made a post explaining why this is the case.

http://community.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/summoners-rift/qolHnLF7-analysis-jungle-timers-the-real-argument

Nin10do001412/14/2014, 9:13:19 PM1 votes

Here's the thing though. These changes eliminated tedious mechanical elements that did not offer much to the core elements of the game. In Starcraft, if you make excellent strategic decisions and micro your units well but lost because the opponent could click on his buildings faster, then are you really worse than your opponent? Same thing in League. If a Jungler can pull off exceptional ganks, maintain control of Dragon, and provide constant pressure on the map, then is he/she a bad player by not keeping track of Jungle Timers?