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Riot, please fix your egregious design oversights this patch.

Kholdstare13·7/22/2015, 3:26:18 PM·5 votes·810 views

Reposting this thread here for MWAB to possibly pick up and run with.

Azir: No longer has a passive on the Crystal Scar. Give him something.

Gangplank: Needs alternate (non-Q) revenue streams for silver serpents based on map, or upgrade price reductions (or both)

As-is, I can see him getting 1, MAYBE 2 upgrades over a full game of TT. Lower the upgrade price to 250 per and you should be ok. TT still has laning and farmgrind like SR, just in much shorter bursts.

The real problem is that he's going to have 0 upgrades on Dominion and ARAM. Even if he goes bot lane, the only Dom position that ever touches a minion, he's only going to kill 100 before the game ends. Out of those 100, let's be overly generous and say 75 were killed by Q or E->Qs. Counting the fact that some of those are at earlier levels before Q is maxed as about a 20% loss in overall serpents, that's 480. The game ends before his first upgrade even in the only minion-adjacent position. Granted he is a better fit for bot now with his new E and SHOULD probably lane there, do you really want to force him into a role that hard? A role that only 1 player on each team of 5 can play? Not even accounting for the chance of needing to swap, which can be fairly common especially in blind matchups.

And of course, ARAM puts him in a position where he is simply unlikely to touch a minion before allies waveclear it all out from under him. Add on the fact that if he's far enough forward to Q a minion he's well in enemy poke range and should ideally only move there when he can Q one of THEM instead of a worthless minion.

So, the solution? Dominion and ARAM should grant a full 500-serpent stipend every time he ranks up his ult.

Alternatively for Dominion, lower the price to 150 per upgrade (bot GP can now afford it normally), and have health relics grant 20 every time he picks one up. This allows top GP a different way to "farm" his ult up.

While you're reprogramming the relics, have them give stacks to other champions who need it too. Stacks for Nasus (desperate need, should have a fairly high value) health for Sion (Slightly less dire than Nasus, moderate value. Also can you buff the turning speed on his ult for Dominion to be actually useful? It needs to be able to wind through the Dom jungle.), AP for Veigar(and maybe change Q's champion bonus from kill to takedown, that would leave him reasonable top), a few stacks for Cass (just a few, she's moderately ok as-is due to tons of poisoning, but she's overall just an average pick top and a little extra can't hurt.), and anyone I'm forgetting or future champions you decide just have to have a "stack" mechanic.

Other older Dominion issues you never bothered addressing:

Thresh. 4x was clearly OP because he could start bot, farm a bit, then swap top and be a monster. Leave souls at 2 stacks per, but change champions to drop 2 souls each on death (3 for Nunu?) so top Thresh can scale properly while bot stays relatively weak.

Bard needs around 3-5x stacks per chime, whatever balances well that he can scale his autos properly for combat to remain a reasonable threat while tanking, after his one and only combat ability is spent.

Reduce Cho'Gath's feast stack loss on death to 1/3 rounded down from 1/2 rounded up. Death is far more common, especially relative to cooldown timers, and should be treated appropriately, not overly penalized.

Nerf Urgot. You haven't done a round of map-specific balancing in AGES, despite buffing the crap out of him, already a top tier threat before. Get some nerfs going for this guy.

And from now on, when you design a new champion, run it by each map's team first so they can point out the obvious issues and needed tweaks to get things to work there. There's no excuse for a company in your position to be releasing broken content like this. You can do far better.

15 Comments

Rebonack7/22/2015, 3:51:58 PM3 votes

"See you on the Rift!" -Riot, probably

Minarde7/22/2015, 5:11:00 PM2 votes

On the plus side, Riot seems to have (accidentally?) hid personal score with the new HUD. It shows CS instead, which is an improvement, I guess.

Rebonack7/23/2015, 9:31:28 PM2 votes

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but yes on both counts.

The Dominion meta consists of one minion grinder bottom lane and four wandering murder-hobos to cover the rest of the map. Provided top's damage is balanced just about any sort of team comp can work, assuming it's cohesive. Dominion is much more flexible than Rift is on the team role side of things, but the freedom to break away from 1/1/2/J seems to reduce most Rift players into knuckle-dragging neanderthals.

Case in point: There was a Dominate Dominion tourney a while back where a Dominion team of all bronze ranked players stomped the shit out of a team of Challenger level Rift players. It was hilarious.

Kholdstare137/23/2015, 6:09:18 PM1 votes

I would love a Riot response, especially on Gangplank.

Faint Messiah7/23/2015, 6:48:47 PM1 votes

People still play Dominion? and it has a meta? :O

SKOBODO7/24/2015, 12:00:31 PM1 votes

Azir: The question we need to ask is: Does he need it? He was fairly strong before this patch, although he did get nerfed quite a bit. We should wait and see while people try to figure out which build is best, I'm thinking Rylai's + Liandry's might work well for him.

Gangplank: Your suggestions are too much. I don't think Gangplank is meant to get more than one, maybe two upgrades in most games. I also think that it's a mistake to force him to farm for it, since that encourages gameplay patterns that often aren't good on Dominion (and pretty boring on TT). I'm vary of giving map specific buffs in general since they risk turning a champion that isn't a problem into a problem (remember bot lane Thresh?), giving him silver coins per level or per second might be an okay solution, as long as they don't overdo it. Or maybe just give him an upgrade at 10 minutes in Dominion and 20 minutes? Although might that be too much? Maybe like 12 minutes and 23 minutes or something?

Other champions you mentioned:

Nasus: No. Nasus is poorly designed and if he got lots of Q stacks he'd be a pain to deal with. The map is better off with him weak.

Veigar: No. Giving him more AP would make the 100-0 process more overbearing. Veigar is still usable in his current state.

Cassiopeia: What? She's not even that bad, no need for map specific buffs.

Thresh: I think increasing the soul rate drops is the wrong solution, since it means he'll fall behind if the team falls behind and he'll snowball if they're doing well. A better solution is to give him a small amount of soul/10, or maybe reduce the ratio to 1x and give him a slightly more generous soul/10.

Cho'Gath: What this would mean is that with 3 stacks, he'd lose 1 stack instead of 2, and with 5 and 6 stacks, he'd lose 2 instead of 3. Seems somewhat reasonable to me, although I'm not sure if he really needs the buffs, he's not really that bad right now anyway.

Urgot: He's barely ever played in high MMR EUW. Sure, he's overpowered, but very few people play him in high MMR EUW, so maybe it would be a good idea to wait and see if Riot decide to nerf him globally? Until he becomes more popular, it might be best to leave him as a sleeper OP.

tldr: None of your suggested changes are really needed right now.

Kholdstare137/27/2015, 3:13:42 PM1 votes

@Scruffy I think I heard you were working on the GP aspect?

Kholdstare137/29/2015, 3:28:46 PM1 votes

@Riot I read about the SS/s mechanic. Can we give Thresh Nasus and Bard that too with various scalings/timings?

Also can we re-adjust the mechanic to be faster on ARAM and Dominion and slower on TT? 1 per second doesn't work the same for all 3. That's why passive gold and xp gains are different between them. base the mechanic around those values for a proper estimate.

Minarde7/22/2015, 4:08:49 PM1 votes

There's also a thread in Gameplay & Balance about Azir. Amusingly, most of the posts are people arguing that either a) the Sun Disc is a weak passive or b) the CDR->AS passive was just moved to W, so it's fine.

Rebonack7/22/2015, 5:08:16 PM1 votes

Sun Disk would be pretty neat if you could plop it on allied points in Dominion. Make it so the Disk has to be destroyed before the point can be captured. That would give Harvey Birdman a pretty unique contribution to his team.