I'll probably expand on this idea a bit in time, but the TLDR of the premise is this:
ARAM is fun, mostly because All Mid is fun, but... well, nobody takes it seriously. I see many people try to crank the randomness or just let every champ be available, but how does that promote skilled play?
You ask me, Draft/ban Mode will do the trick. Now your lack of champions will work against you scrubs.
Or is there an appeal to anti-skill?
Kholdstare132 votesRandom adds more skill, skill of flexibility and adaptability, to change your own playstyle to fill gaps in your team or counter the enemy's main strengths.
What the mode needs is to just balance the random to where advantage is neutral over a large number of games between all players. Full pool unlock is one option for this, but I came up with a more fun and interesting way.
Dessim82 votesRandom adds more skill, skill of flexibility and adaptability, to change your own playstyle to fill gaps in your team or counter the enemy's main strengths.
So, randomness beyond some casino games (you can 'play the odds' for a statistics based "strategy") is skill? If I'm getting a champion I've never used, there's no skill, just me begging my butt to not get hyper ravaged by the enemy.
What the mode needs is to just balance the random to where advantage is neutral over a large number of games between all players. Full pool unlock is one option for this, but I came up with a more fun and interesting way.
You espouse this a lot, like nonstop. It gets a bit tedious, and by and large, it's a bad business decision for Riot. "Hey buy our champions, no wait, you'll get them in ARAM, here's some more points you'll never spend"
A draft encourages use of the shop so you're not too limited in options.
Kholdstare131 votesSo, randomness beyond some casino games (you can 'play the odds' for a statistics based "strategy") is skill? If I'm getting a champion I've never used, there's no skill, just me begging my butt to not get hyper ravaged by the enemy.
In Binding of Isaac, which takes more skill? A seeded run where you can memorize everything, plan based on the pickups you know you will get, and route through an optimal path, or a random run where you have no idea what's ahead and need to adapt to whatever you are given, and make the best use out of what you get?
that's the point of ARAM. Overcoming the random nature becomes a huge part of the required skillset. No mindless meta grinding. Stay on your toes and adapt to survive.
You espouse this a lot, like nonstop. It gets a bit tedious, and by and large, it's a bad business decision for Riot. "Hey buy our champions, no wait, you'll get them in ARAM, here's some more points you'll never spend"
A draft encourages use of the shop so you're not too limited in options.
You didn't read the link, did you? Most people say full pool and, while that WOULD technically balance it, ideas like the one I posted are more fun and interesting, while better supporting Riot's business model.
The main point is that you can't have a draft on a mode where champion balance is THIS skewed. It leads to 100% pick/ban rates on the top 16-20 champions, and nothing else reasonably viable. On the other hand, random picks spread over this skewed spectrum balance out to neutral, especially over a large number of games. It creates the dynamic of needing to capitalize on an advantage, and the ability to overcome odds when they stack against you in order to maintain a high winrate.
Zielmann1 votesBit of an aside, but what advantage does the complexity of your proposed system offer over a much simpler solution: the pool for that game is the combined pool of all champs owned by the players in the game (plus free week champs)? This is exactly how they set it up in the One For All mode, so they even have the tech tucked away somewhere to implement this. It requires no new UI development or changes to the client at all.
I get that you're going for the benefit of letting people pick a number of champions to throw into the pool. But in the simpler solution, you basically are picking champs for the pool buy unlocking them. And this would actually promote buying more champs from people who mainly play ARAM, since realistically with your system, players would create one deck of the set of champs they like best, and always throw that one in. Minus the people who build a deck of the bottom 10 champs and throw that in now and again just to screw with people.
That said, I'm still one of those who prefers the fully open roster solution, with the combined pool option as a close second. I think I prefer leaving bans out of the equation, because when you do one of those other two solutions, I'd rather let the random decide that neither team gets Sona, than be guaranteed to never see Sona in ARAM again.
Kholdstare131 votesBit of an aside, but what advantage does the complexity of your proposed system offer over a much simpler solution: the pool for that game is the combined pool of all champs owned by the players in the game (plus free week champs)? This is exactly how they set it up in the One For All mode, so they even have the tech tucked away somewhere to implement this. It requires no new UI development or changes to the client at all.
I get that you're going for the benefit of letting people pick a number of champions to throw into the pool. But in the simpler solution, you basically are picking champs for the pool buy unlocking them. And this would actually promote buying more champs from people who mainly play ARAM, since realistically with your system, players would create one deck of the set of champs they like best, and always throw that one in. Minus the people who build a deck of the bottom 10 champs and throw that in now and again just to screw with people.
That said, I'm still one of those who prefers the fully open roster solution, with the combined pool option as a close second. I think I prefer leaving bans out of the equation, because when you do one of those other two solutions, I'd rather let the random decide that neither team gets Sona, than be guaranteed to never see Sona in ARAM again.
It mainly offers that feel of customization over the auto-full combined pool. It helps to limit the impact of unpleasant champs, strong or weak. People own champs they hate, it's a fact of the game. "Oh great, I own Sona so now there will ALWAYS be a chance of her showing up and ruining a game." "Great, I own Bard. Better save a reroll in case I ever roll that trash while he sits there diluting out all the fun picks."
Yes, many people will make sets of their favorites. That's the point. People all have different favorites, and in a system where you're just as likely against your picks than as them, those favorites are going to be a lot more personal preference and NOT fall into what people feel is OP.
One other part of it is comparing the event skin boost system to the crappy ARAM version they added. Event skin boosts were somewhat fun since they relied on players playing champions they didn't necessarily own. The skin lending system in my post puts that fun concept to work, while being tied to a single permanent purchase so players don't feel like they're wasting money on something so fleeting.
Zielmann1 votesI honestly still don't see what it offers as an advantage over the combined pool of all players in the game approach, especially given the massive added complexity behind it. If you own a 'bad' champ, there'll now be equal chance that anybody gets it. And I pretty much guarantee that at least one player in every game will have those top 10-15 champs anyhow, so you're still likely to get those even if you don't own them.
It is a neat system idea. But generally the best ideas for actual implementation are going to be both effective and simple. Combined pool accomplishes basically the same thing with far less overhead.
Kholdstare131 votesI honestly still don't see what it offers as an advantage over the combined pool of all players in the game approach, especially given the massive added complexity behind it. If you own a 'bad' champ, there'll now be equal chance that anybody gets it. And I pretty much guarantee that at least one player in every game will have those top 10-15 champs anyhow, so you're still likely to get those even if you don't own them.
It is a neat system idea. But generally the best ideas for actual implementation are going to be both effective and simple. Combined pool accomplishes basically the same thing with far less overhead.
Pure combined pool is certainly simpler, but you underestimate the community in terms of how "effective" it is.
You assume the most OP 10-15 will always show up, but why would they? Who in their right mind wants to gamble on Sona showing up? Even when you do get her it's not a fun game, the win is too easy. Likewise going against her you may as well just sit in base and wait to lose. People don't want that.
People are more likely to pick the mid-range balanced champs, particularly the ones they are good at and confident they can play well and play against. I'm sure you can think of some examples of champions you are really good at, but it seems like nobody else understands how to play and always do badly.
All of these methods are balanced randomness. The picks method just uses the community's hatred of OP/UP champions as a way to allow silent mutual agreement to exclude them, leading them to show up less often, and have closer more balanced and more fun games all around for everyone.
Zielmann2 votesI wish I could be that optimistic about the community. I see it breaking down into three categories of players/decks:
'OP Champs' Deck: Built of a set of the top 10-15 win-rate champs in ARAM. The gamble being that if your team gets some of them, you'll have a good shot at winning. This is sort of like the ARAM smurfs now.
Personal Favorites for ARAM Deck: Built of champs that the player personally feels they do best with on ARAM, and give them a good chance of winning due to a combination of their ability with these champs, and the champs overall being good for ARAM. The last point here is key, because by and large, these will still be champions that are very solid for ARAM and good for either team. I would guess this would be the majority of players.
'Worst' Champs Deck: Built of some of the lowest win-rate champs in ARAM, just to mess with people and/or get revenge for ARAM smurfs.
But realistically speaking, I would think that at least one player in every game is going to have those top champs picked. They might not intentionally build the all-OP deck, but in their personal favorites, they'll have the Lux, Ziggs, Sona, etc. Between all 10 players? I'd wager there's a very high chance those top champs will be available regardless.
Kholdstare131 votesI wish I could be that optimistic about the community. I see it breaking down into three categories of players/decks:
'OP Champs' Deck: Built of a set of the top 10-15 win-rate champs in ARAM. The gamble being that if your team gets some of them, you'll have a good shot at winning. This is sort of like the ARAM smurfs now.
Personal Favorites for ARAM Deck: Built of champs that the player personally feels they do best with on ARAM, and give them a good chance of winning due to a combination of their ability with these champs, and the champs overall being good for ARAM. The last point here is key, because by and large, these will still be champions that are very solid for ARAM and good for either team. I would guess this would be the majority of players.
'Worst' Champs Deck: Built of some of the lowest win-rate champs in ARAM, just to mess with people and/or get revenge for ARAM smurfs.
But realistically speaking, I would think that at least one player in every game is going to have those top champs picked. They might not intentionally build the all-OP deck, but in their personal favorites, they'll have the Lux, Ziggs, Sona, etc. Between all 10 players? I'd wager there's a very high chance those top champs will be available regardless.
It'd be an interesting social experiment to see.
Dessim82 votesEither way, I still can't see how any form of randomness extends itself well to competitive serious games.
% Dodge was removed for a reason, ya know.
Kholdstare132 votesEither way, I still can't see how any form of randomness extends itself well to competitive serious games.
% Dodge was removed for a reason, ya know.
I point again to poker. A single hand is too random to be valuable data, but a full tournament is a good way to determine skill, and the best players will win consistently.
Dessim82 votesI point again to poker. A single hand is too random to be valuable data, but a full tournament is a good way to determine skill, and the best players will win consistently.
So a LoL tournament vs a poker tournament. Okay, if I get a bad hand in poker, I can fold it with often minimal consequence. In League, if I 'fold' (dodge) a game to avoid a bad 'hand' (champion) I get penalized, and harshly if it were ranked.
Kholdstare131 votesSo a LoL tournament vs a poker tournament. Okay, if I get a bad hand in poker, I can fold it with often minimal consequence. In League, if I 'fold' (dodge) a game to avoid a bad 'hand' (champion) I get penalized, and harshly if it were ranked.
You should get penalized (with MMR loss). You currently don't. That is indeed one important fix to add to the mode to counter the rampant dodging problem, regardless of what the rest of its future holds.
Dessim81 votesYou should get penalized (with MMR loss). You currently don't. That is indeed one important fix to add to the mode to counter the rampant dodging problem, regardless of what the rest of its future holds.
That wasn't the point. If I fold a Poker hand, I don't have to wait 20 minutes before the next hand (someone WILL call the clock long before it reaches 5 minutes of thinking your next move.)
Kholdstare131 votesThat wasn't the point. If I fold a Poker hand, I don't have to wait 20 minutes before the next hand (someone WILL call the clock long before it reaches 5 minutes of thinking your next move.)
Yet the current time penalty does nothing to stop dodgers (because they DO just hope onto another smurf and ignore it).
We could probably remove it if we replaced it with counting as a loss for the dodger.
disregardable1 votesAll mid isn't a game of skill, it's a team death match.
Dessim81 votesYou're not getting or are dodging my point (honestly unsure, no ill will meant): a folded pre-flop poker hand has a minimal penalty of ante/blinds (if in the blinds.)
There is a penalty (maybe not harsh enough, but multiple accounts don't share ELO) for dodging, but there's a saying in poker "There's no shame in folding."
No comparison for dodging.
Hence the analogy isn't perfect.
Kholdstare131 votesYou're not getting or are dodging my point (honestly unsure, no ill will meant): a folded pre-flop poker hand has a minimal penalty of ante/blinds (if in the blinds.)
There is a penalty (maybe not harsh enough, but multiple accounts don't share ELO) for dodging, but there's a saying in poker "There's no shame in folding."
No comparison for dodging.
Hence the analogy isn't perfect.
It's not meant to be perfect, it's meant to be an example of random balancing out over a large number of games. You are the one missing MY point.
Does Magic The Gathering work better for you? One loss in a tournament is the same whether you forfeit or play through, but the fact is tournaments are played in a large round-robin format to get a big sample of games and let the winners be the players with the best constructed decks and the skill to use them, despite the constant possibility of a bad shuffle ruining any individual hand.
Let's just assume based on your skill you have 55% winrate. Each individual game takes that 55% chance to win and randomly adds between -20 and 20%, then it plays out. If you repeat this process 100 times, you are practically guaranteed to maintain a positive winrate. The more times you repeat it, the more the overall result becomes apparent.
That's all I'm saying. Once the RNG is balanced by removing pool advantage and scumming opportunity, your MMR will settle into an accurate representation of performance over time.
Kinjishi1 votesHaving a Draft mode with 3 bans per side, then randomizing champs would be a nice way to go about ARAM.
Opening up the entire champ pool is just silly.
insaiyanbacca1 votesthe appeal of aram is that its just a fun game mode to mess around in and no one takes it to extremely srsly so its actually a decent stress relief mode now that i think about it, most people dont want to get serious about aram they just kinda want to have fun
Dessim81 votesthe appeal of aram is that its just a fun game mode to mess around in and no one takes it to extremely srsly so its actually a decent stress relief mode now that i think about it, most people dont want to get serious about aram they just kinda want to have fun
Thank you for making up everyone's mind for them. They all appreciate it.
insaiyanbacca1 votesits nto really that, its just thats pretty much everyone who i've talked to about aram says the appeal is so i figured its how most aram players felt, also aram started off as a featured game mode iirc which means it probably was never meant to be competitive, as most featured game modes from what i see people go more for having fun then getting real competitive
Dessim81 votesSR is featured in tourneys... is it also not meant to be competitive?
Dessim81 votesI want to make ARAM ELO important again.
But it's hard to gauge when it's all a crapshoot.