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Why not make bots more humane?

NarwhalNathan·4/23/2015, 4:56:38 PM·3 votes·572 views

To be honest, it might make league bot games even easier than it already is, but hear me out.

For those of you 1-10.lvl players (non-smurf of course) who are wondering what the jungle is; the jungle is the place between mid and top lane and mid and bot lane that inihibits monsters that carry certain buffs and an higher amount of XP and health regen after killing than normal creeps like caster minions etc.

Now to get to the point, i find bot games easy, being a lv 30 player makes that easy for me to say but whatever. There days i want to try out jungle with certain champions for example: These are just some of the more known junglers if not all of them who are most viable in my opinion. Yet I donnot want to create an entire game without being even experienced with that certain champion. Now don't come at me like: "You can learn to jungle and gank using the bot game mode" cause i know that is true, but for the less experienced players like me 3 months ago, that was all new to me, i had to learn how to avoid being ganked, i had to learn to mislead a ganking jungler and at the time that had me like: "Shit, what is this jungling thing"?

So i did some research and found out what jungling was, yet, i did not emmidiatly wanted to play a bot game as a jungler for i knew top lane would have it a bit harder than usual, and being my team mates at that level at that time wasn't the greatest, so i was wondering, why not make an enemy jungler for some bot games, why not even throw in a modifications where you can choose whether or not to have an enemy jungler in your bot game?

RIOT would of course have to make a jungler almost completely from scratch for it's mechanics work a bit differently. But still, if RIOT would take the time to implement this feature, it would make a lot of league players more than happy to try it out and maybe be happier with it than how they look at bot games as how they are right now.

This has been my post/discussion, be sure to leave a reaction and up-vote this post so more people get to see it and maybe at some point even RIOT'ers themselves.

-NarwhalNathan: IGN lv.30__Main lane top/jungler

7 Comments

DrathTurtle3144/23/2015, 5:11:02 PM2 votes

One of the biggest problems with this is that bots don't leash, so the bot that is jungling would have to have an ability that allowed them to complete their first clear with no leash, nunu consume or fiddlesticks drain for example, or the other bots would have to be reprogrammed to leash for it. Also, the decission making that that bot would have to have would be a lot of "if then" in the code that has the potential to create problems. Its a great idea in theory, but it would be incredibly difficult to implement I think.

50000000000000004/23/2015, 6:44:57 PM1 votes

Riot was talking about how it can be something like "roaming feeder" because once you figure out how enemy jungler moves around, it can be abused to farm their jungler.

But then, I use abuse bot AI to get free kills anyway, so I don't see why not.

Jungle Lux God4/24/2015, 2:23:37 AM1 votes

As much as I think it would be cool to have jungling bots, I voted no because of the distinct amount of work that would have to be done to have the bot behave like a jungler.

Look at the jungler role. It has so many different variables at play in it, such as when to farm, which camps to farm, when to gank, and so on. Note that this is only the basic stuff; I'm not even counting managing different jungle buffs and smite buffs, which would be beyond the reach of a bot to handle.

These variables are constantly changing to the flow of the game between how the opposing jungler plays, how the laners play, and how the jungler plays.

The laners, on the other hand, don't need to manage as many factors because, at the basic level, only need to manage yourself and your lane opponent. It's a lot simpler to go lane somewhere.

Now translate these behaviors into bot algorithms. The current algorithms that we have for our laning bots are relatively simple, and can run fairly quickly because there are so relatively few variables for their algorithms to handle.

Jungle bots, on the other hand, would have a lot more variables to handle, and likely would not be able to handle the jungling role as a whole. If we did see a jungle bot, we could probably expect it to run the exact same pattern every game: exact same camp clears, gank times, back times, and gank locations every single game. It would be way too predictable for all players to a degree that the current AI isn't susceptible too.

And this doesn't even account for cases where a camp gets stolen, the bot gets invaded, or the lane the bot is programed to gank isn't set up for the bot to gank. This provides even more problems for the bot to account for, and therefore also requires a lot more for its algorithm to be able to handle.

Then you have the problem of coding the rest of the AI to be able to follow up on the bot's ganks or help leash for the bot. This causes problems that requires entire reworkings of the code already being used for the AI in the game.

And all of this is accounting for the fact that the bot's algorithm runs efficiently. Because of how many variables the bot needs to constantly be checking, the bot may not be able to actively be able to respond to the enemy's tactics in time to act, and my simply blow up if there are too many variables on the map at a time, turning a 5v5 bot match into a 5v4 bot match because one bot couldn't act.

A good example of these kinds of algorithm discrepancies are the ones that Blizzard uses in Hearthstone for the Adventure modes and the ones that some players had made (against the terms of service) to cheat their ways to wins. The bots used in the Adventure modes are very simple, and are capable of running efficiently, even when there is a big board on the enemy team, because the bots use so relatively few variables. The bots are a lot simpler, but at the same time the bots run more efficiently, and because they are so much more efficient they can be used, and therefore can be used in Hearthstone's Adventures like Naxxramus and Blackrock.

Meanwhile, bots that some players hacked into Hearthstone were designed to play more like real players, and to do this they had some pretty complex algorithms. Because these algorithms were so complex, they ran very inefficiently, and took so long that if a player put a lot of big threats on the board the player could force the bot to time out its turns because the bot's algorithm took longer to process than the turn timer allowed.

That said, it would be really cool for bots to be able to jungle, but with the way the jungle is played it just isn't possible.

Shroom Junkie4/24/2015, 3:02:45 AM1 votes

Though I agree that players need some experience in jungling, and shouldn't go first with players, it could be a problem. There are many things that humans can do that AI can't.

For example: The jungler would have to have a certain path to take, and a setup that dictated when and where they should gank. That would be EXTREMELY hard. Especially if said lane isn't even pushed. I mean, the jungler might just tower dive because that's how its programmed. To add to that, people could figure out and abuse the route. They could hide out when they're about to come somewhere and steal their buffs for free, or moreso, just come in and kill them right there. Or just take their buffs when they aren't there.

There would also have to be leashing. There are very few junglers that can start without a leash, and those who can usually start bad without it. Now, they could obviously program it so that the lanes would leash them, but that could be extremely hard, plus, the moment the bots saw you in their lane they'd probably come running and never leash said bot, in which he would either be behind and have to back, or be executed, and again, be behind.

Then there's the problem of what order to jungle in, what you should do while jungling, and obviously, who should jungle. They can't send a Janna in to jungle, it just doesn't work. So they'd have to narrow it down to what would probably be the easiest junglers to code. Then there's the problem of double tops: the jungler would be so busy doing his thing, and the top laner would get destroyed. Well, more so than normally.

Now, what order should they jungle in? What camp should they start? Would they ward dragon? Would they even try to take dragon? And how efficient would they be? There are plenty of AI abusers in the jungle - including myself - who use the AI flaws to take advantage and farm better. Now, obviously, bots wouldn't know that, and they'd be left behind and almost useless compared to the normal junglers.

That's about it for the flaws I saw. So yeah... PEACE.

TheJinxedOne4/28/2015, 7:32:40 AM1 votes

Bot jungle should be in intermediate atleast i think