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Surprise! Another set of questions/confusion about Sandbox mode

Masalar·8/5/2015, 10:49:53 PM·6 votes·1,006 views

there's no tl;dr here. It's long, it changes topics. But it says everything I want to say, and, as a plus Riot, doesn't really get mean. Loud, baffled, confusion sure. Some sarcasm and snark yes. But it's not mean.

Riot, I like you guys. I actually do. When you come forward and explain why something is, or isn’t being done, I tend to believe you. I believe your balance team tends to do a good job (not perfect, but that’s an impossible standard). But Ho.Ly.Crap. I’m not even sure where to begin when it comes to the recent posts about sandbox mode. Based on the intense (and almost universally) negative reaction to the announcement I wouldn’t be surprised if there were a couple “emergency” meetings called that had the topic “sandbox mode”.

I began all this as a Reddit reply, before realizing I had too much to say. So I decided to put a little effort into this and put it on the forums to offer some, hopefully constructive, feedback.

The first thing that became apparent shortly after the launch of Rito Pls (which I actually love), is that players really seem to want a Sandbox mode. Sure, it may just be that pesky vocal minority again, but I’m inclined to think otherwise. I’ll include a caveat here that, I realize for Riot it isn’t “Do we think sandbox mode is or isn’t good for the game?” but “Would the benefit of sandbox mode (after weighing pros and cons) be better than something else we could be spending our time on?” But, after reading as many Rioter replies as I could, I was left with a fair bit of confusion that I’ll express here and hopefully get answered.

The biggest source of confusion is, easily, the reasons given as to WHY we don’t/won’t have sandbox mode. They seem to boil down to this: Adding in a means for people to practice increases player’s expectations of their teammates. And if these expectations aren’t met, it could lead to an increase in toxicity. So, to counter this, players would HAVE to spend a decent chunk of their play time in this multiplayer game playing solo to get “good enough” to play with other players. And while these all SOUND like reasonable concerns…I’m sorry, but it’s a load of crap. I’ll explain why.

Currently in LoL: I'm going to Alistar for this example (although Azir may even be better). Headbutt>>Pulverize. This is not an easy combo to pull off. If you can't pull this off as Alistar, you're probably better off not picking him. But I want to get better at it. What are my options in the current set-up? There are 5. 1: Pick him in ranked to practice. Bad idea, everyone knows why. 2: Pick him in normals to practice. Sure, it's just normals, but I also might cost my team the game. I need to do the combo a lot to practice, this means trying it at less than opportune times. Or I only try it at opportune times...probably failing it and costing my team the objective. This ruins the experience for my team. Thus, this is also a bad choice. (Seriously, everyone has to have had that Alistar that saves the enemy carry at a clutch moment costing their team the fight and probably the game) 3: Play him in co-op Ai. 4: Play him against custom Ai. 5: Play him in custom against a patient human. (6. Spam ARAM and hope for the best) For these last 3, which are the only non-toxic choices available...HOW ARE THEY ANY DIFFERENT OR BETTER THAN SANDBOX MODE?! I've already removed most of the human element. In fact, humans being present on the other team offers NO tangible benefit for me when it comes to practicing just being able to perform the combo. All the lack of a sandbox mode does it INCREASE the time it takes for me to be better as Alistar.

And this applies to every mechanically difficult champion. Am I somehow magically better off trying to master the Shurima Shuffle against humans? With part of it requiring me to wait several minutes for my ult to be available again? Doesn't this lack of skill actually INCREASE the likelihood of toxicity from my teammates? Am I not losing them the game because I need more practice to do this...and I haven't been able to do the practice?!

Here's another example. How many Rioters have jungled? How many of those Rioters took their first experience jungling a champion to custom instead of normals or ranked? I'd hope most to all of them. Because dying to an early jungle camp can cost your team SO MUCH. And is easily avoided by just trying it in a custom first. Like, honestly, this fact 100% disproved everything you keep saying. Players already use customs to optimize early jungling. Because it's the best way. Because if you make a mistake (and if you’re experimenting, you WILL make mistakes), you don’t cost 4 other players the game. The only actually half-way decent argument provided (and this was the least mentioned one) was that you, to paraphrase, “Didn’t want the optimal way to play a multiplayer game to be spending most of your time playing solo.” And I get that. I do. But I think it’s misguided. If I want to get better with smartcasting vector spells (that was a rough change for me to make) I go into a custom game to practice. If I want to try a new jungler, I go into a custom game to practice. Basically, players already use custom mode to practice, even though it sucks and isn’t super effective. Because it’s that or screw with your teammates.

I tried Jungle Morganna once. Did it straight into a normal with 2-3 friends. It sucked, and while it may not have been the only reason we lost, what of the 1-2 players who had to put up with it? Was it worth it? Was it somehow magically better for them than if I’d done it in a custom/sandbox instead? Did it cause less toxicity? No, and to think so is absurd.

And that’s the biggest thing: the “reasons” provided are absurd. Messing up in normals a lot will cause less toxicity than messing up in normal less? Being able to practice more will make the game harder?

This is a competitive game. You play (mostly) against other humans. There is a winner and a loser. People WANT to be able to bring their best. And when they ask for a way to improve more easily they are told “No”. If you want to keep driving LoL forward as a competitive game, you have to give players the tools to BE competitive.

But I’m not going to make this just critical. I’m also going to help. I’m going to tell you how to probably get a sandbox mode out by the next patch. Because It's not hard to make sandbox mode (says the guy with no programming experience). Or the bare basics outline of one. Here's what you do. Add a single check box to the custom game lobby to enable sandbox mode. This adds a single tab to the shop. This tab sells every item for free, sells a potion that levels you up, and another that reduces the cooldown of everything by 99 (or 95)% and gives infinite resources. Congratulations. You've made sandbox mode. I even kept this as BASIC as possible to make it as easy as possible to implement. I suspect you guys could have a trial version of this made up in a few hours, tops.

Could it better? Easily. Would this lead to odd bugs? Sure. Would much of that matter? No, no it would not. Because if something does break, it affects one person. Who is practicing. It May even allow intrepid players to help identify bugs for you. Win-win-win all around.

I realize this lacks a lot of things players might want (opt-inable dragon and baron buffs to name a few). Things that make this experience drastically different from the norm. (which I recognize could lead to developing bad habits/expectations) But, shockingly, if there’s only 1 person experiencing it at a time…then it doesn’t really matter. It doesn’t matter if I start the game as a 6 item level 1 Vayne. And if I give myself a fully completed jungle item to start jungling with, I don’t think I’d be upset at Riot that I had troubles doing the same clear in normal with only machete.

Basically, I, and a lot of other players, don’t get it. We really, truly don’t get it. I’m used to LoL not having things because of unusual reasons. I get we don’t have replays because of the tech it would require, and that different regions experience it differently, and that the fact that so many millions play it makes it unique. I get these things. But sandbox mode seems like such a low-risk feature to add, with so much potential to make players happy, to add diversity to the game, to make players better, to make pros better (foot note, buying from the sandbox shop announces purchases in all chat, just in case pro teams want to use it to practice, say, playing from behind), all without being that had to get out (in a basic form). You could always add more to it over time. (and yes, I realize I played up how simple it would be. No doubt it’s more complicated than I could possibly know…but I honestly believe it’s also easier than you seem to think)

Anyway, I would love some clarification. And I also understand it may take a little bit to get it as, no doubt, talks are happening and clarifications being discussed internally and a more “official” stance is being prepped. But please Riot, you have your problems…but this is such a bafflingly dumb seeming stance to take. I really want some actual, good, reasoning. Please.

3 Comments

sdjfhue78/6/2015, 1:25:54 AM1 votes

me XD

sdjfhue78/6/2015, 1:44:13 AM1 votes

i agree with a lot of what you just said but there is an idea i've had that i would love and others will to that should be added to the sandbox and my idea is a lol editor where you can create your own map and put in things from the game onto it for example putting the vile maw from twisted treeline and the barron from summoners rift on the same map to see how it affects game play basically if you don't get it already what i'm suggesting is the sandbox idea where you can have endless power if wanted but also a simple to use way of making your own game mode that allows you to place anything in the known LOL universe into a map and then to play your map for experimental purposes i really would like this as their are some many questions i need answering like how big can chogath get? or what would win the blue buff golem or a red buff tree thing? wolfs vs wraiths ya know a way of putting any event you can think of into a custom game and when you place one of these mobs in you can allocate them to red neutral or blue my head is so full of ideas for games and i hope i managed to explain his one well and i would appreciate reply's on peoples opinion on my idea and sorry about my grammer.

urchin patronus8/22/2015, 9:07:28 AM

The thing that makes Lol such a popular game is that it is so complex that even after playing thousands of games, you can still queue up not knowing what to expect AND it is so easy to pick up. After a few games against bots, most people can start playing against other people. Introducing a sandbox mode threatens to make the game more centered on mechanics and not split second decision making. Mechanically, there isn't a lot of difference between a Challenger player and an LCS player. But they play with two completely different mindsets. This is the learning curve of league. Not who's fingers have memorized how to do some crazy Lee Sin combo. Anyone can do that. But learning WHEN to do that combo is what separates good players from great players. That's why you can go into each game expecting something new. Because humans and their decisions are unpredictable. That's what the game is about. A sandbox mode would take that away as a whole and be centered on mechanics which are good to learn but are not what makes a player great.