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Quinn and the Definitely-not-Eagle Valor

DarkFlameKitsune··19 votes·2,685 views

Alright, I know I've partaken in Reworked Quinn complaints, but this has more to do with a voiceover update and cohesiveness with lore than anything else, so bear with me: it's not just me going to be openly whining about how she sucks now in high-level play and how they ruined her against the lore. It goes deeper than that. Some of you might know I'm a long-time member of the Tumblr RP community, and I RP as Quinn herself there. The thing is, there's a lot of stuff Riot has ignored with developing her as a falconry-oriented character, both in gameplay and in voiceover, and I feel like it needs to be addressed. (On that same note, good on the lorewriters for writing her well -- my only complaint is in when and how she met Valor in the new lore, but that could be addressed with just one more line of how much training went into Valor as a warbird.)

I'm just gonna run through this real quick with a couple bullet points.

  • **Valor, according to voiceover, is NOT an eagle. ** Eagle calls typically range from whistles to calls that sound more like songbirds or chickens, to be honest. The common sound effect we get for eagles in movies is actually the sound of a red-tailed hawk, or other hawks sometimes, for flavor. Golden eagles make clucking sounds, bald eagles range in sound from a titter to a what they call a "peal", white-tailed eagles chatter, heck, the wedge-tailed eagle (which Azurite Eagles look like) pretty much peeps. Eagles most commonly don't "screech," in fact, there's only two species I've been able to find that do are the harpy eagles, and the crested serpent eagle, and even then, they're weak and whistly, not deep and throaty like Valor's screech. I would like to add that in my writing, I write him as an eagle, so he makes a range of calls, from titters to peeps, to shrills, but never screeching.
  • His size is two vastly different sizes. The largest eagle known to mankind is extinct, and is known as the Haast's eagle. It went extinct about 1000AD, I believe, so it's not that old really, and they hunted moa. Moas' largest living relative are the emu, for reference. Emu are bigger than humans, so they may have hunted humans as well. Assuming Quinn is average size for a woman, this would not be strange for him to pick up and carry her in theory. (I mean, completely ignoring the fact that he obviously doesn't see her as prey, and birds don't do that with their young or loved ones.) That said... Haast's eagles were about 4 feet tall, minus the tail. How in heck can Quinn HOLD that? Plus... it's not at all proportional to in-game model when she tells her joke. Abilities, he's about the size of his joke. But for her ult? Explain how he can suddenly grow about double his size. It just doesn't make sense and 100% breaks my immersion. In my writing, I say for the majority of his early life, he is not fully grown, and that explains the discrepancy, and the only time he will carry her is out of desperation.
  • She does not treat him like a war-bird. Ok, this is more in the territory of "I don't like the update" but it goes further than that, I guess. Even the early working kit she had didn't do this, and I know you guys at Riot have mentioned that you're gonna go back and update her later. SO LISTEN HERE. War-birds are trained a bit like war hounds, and I know you don't have one in the cast list (though new champion idea, anyone?) so I'm going to explain. They are usually trained from hatchlings (which is why I have the nitpick with her new lore) and imprinted on their masters. Because eagles are familial birds, it's most effective with eagles. Historically, the Germans trained war eagles specifically. Middle easterners preferred gyrfalcons, but I'm getting off topic. They are trained that whenever mamma or daddy is in danger, they're gonna wreck someone's day. Think Tibbers, after Annie dies. They're omnipresent. When someone is fighting someone with a trained war animal, they're gonna know. Wartrained animals are very intimidating, so whoever is using one wants them to be right there. In the case of Quinn and Valor, it would make sense if Valor were to attack whatever Quinn is targeting for this sake. Perhaps model them off of Lamb and Wolf, have Quinn always have Valor circling her. If her kit mirrored what her old ultimate had with this functionality, I think Quinn players, new and old, would be more willing to accept the change. There's so much you can do with having both of them always on the field, even more than this. I'm no game developer, but I know you guys are clever, and you can make it happen and be balanced.

TL;DR, Rito please do your research into falconry and eagles, and actually put the time and effort into making Quinn and Valor into something realistic, fun, and respectable for new and old players of her character when you go back and give her a much-needed rework. It's honestly disappointing as someone who has poured hundreds of hours into writing her as a character to see this happening to her on the Rift, so please consider this. It would mean a lot to me if you'd show me that you actually did do your research when you rework her.

24 Comments

Valor Bot8 votes

It's refreshing to see a Quinn-related post around here not made by me. Sometimes I hold back on making these kinds of threads because I don't want to be a forum nuisance, so thanks a bunch for putting this up :)

Onto the actual discussion: I agree it stinks that Valor's VO isn't totally unique and is derived from a hawk rather than an eagle. I wouldn't say the answer is to give him a real-world eagle sound though; if we want Val to be a cool and memorable character, I'd say give him a completely distinct voice that you can't find anywhere else but League. After all, Demacian eagles (or Azurite eagles as they are now called) are a totally unique species of their own, so he deserves to have something really distinct -- I'm thinking something as unique as Rek'Sai's shrill cries, except more bird-like of course. (This is partly why I love Woad Scout Quinn so much; Valor's got distinctly owl-like cries, but none which sound just like any one particular owl in real life; in fact hunting after SFX that sound just like him in that skin is quite difficult. The sound designers did an amazing job.)

As for your second point, I 100% agree with you. Getting lifted a few feet above the ground by a giant bird is NOT what I'd call the height of the falconer fantasy -- and I am so glad to see that this ability was not featured in Quinn's lore, because on a purely visceral level it just seems so ridiculous, aside from the fact it's a surefire way to get caught by enemies while scouting out hostile areas, which runs contrary to Quinn's goals and methods. Sure, Valor can pick her up and bail her out every now and then if the situation gets heavy -- but it shouldn't be a tactic they commonly employ, in my opinion, which is what leads me to believe it's a poor fit for her ultimate in general. Aside from that, he needs a more consistent size -- something large enough to be a real threat to Quinn's enemies, but not so large that he can't fly silently, or hide amongst the trees along with Quinn.

Also, you said Valor deserves more visual presence in game like Wolf to Lamb; instead of flying circles above her head though, what if he rested on her glove, flying on and off the gauntlet as needed? What I'm imagining here specifically is a reworked W that allows the Quinn player to switch between two different stances for Valor, like a toggle: one where he's in the sky and providing sight for Quinn, and another where he flies back down to Quinn's glove and grants her bonuses or something while on her arm. That's just an idea of course, but I think it would further enhance the falconer fantasy; "bird on glove" is the characteristic pose for that sort of character afterall. Visually, it also makes it more about "Quinn and Valor" rather than just "Quinn," since they'd always be together rather than Valor flying off somewhere outside of vision.

And finally, I'm with you that Valor could stand to be far more intimidating than he currently is. His in-game model is not at all indicative of a warbird who's ready to rip your throat out. He looks more like a chubby blue parrot that will occasionally peck at you and be a nuisance more than anything. I think a comparison between Q&V's in-game model and concept art gets this across quite well:

http://i.imgur.com/4m8qt67.jpg

Concept Valor is just far more intimidating and fierce.

Anyway, I'm hoping a Quinn VGU will resolve all these issues once and for all, even if it is still years down the line (auuuggghhh it couldn't come any sooner ;-;). Thanks for your post!

**Edit: **Forgot to mention, I actually think it's cool what Riot did with Valor in Quinn's new lore, it implies he (and Azurite eagles in general) are honorable by nature and will attempt to help those in need once they come across them, which gives Val the character and backstory he was sorely lacking before the lore update. I mean, before that, he was just a terribly wounded bird who mysteriously wound up on Caleb's grave for no apparent reason, which left much to be desired.

At the very least, the changes made to Quinn and Valor's meeting don't necessarily imply he was too old for human training -- he could have still been quite young when he came to her rescue; or alternatively, maybe he's a sentient bird that doesn't need to be trained or imprinted upon in a traditional sense to follow orders or cooperate with other sentient beings (this seems plausible considering how advanced his communication with Quinn is).

DarkFlameKitsune3 votes

As for a follow-up on the first point, it's not my point to give him a real-world eagle voice, I'm just saying that it's pretty lazy on Riot's part to use a hawk-based cry, when the Woad Quinn skin uses an obvious owl voice for him. I'm alright with it being unique to him -- all the more power to them if they do their research and make it sound eagle-ish, rather than hawkish! -- it's just more a matter of it being eagle-like to begin with. Which, I think we can both distinctly say it isn't at the moment.

Third point, I definitely would be interested in seeing something like that! I liked the old ultimate pretty well, where you took over the role of Valor on the field because it felt very much like you were the eagle hunting. I would love to have someone see Valor up and flying about and have the enemy team think, "oh crap, it's the bird." These days, we don't get that at all, and so long as that goal can be achieved through the VGU I'll be satisfied with it.

And as for your edit, I like that perspective. I had been sticking with the old "she found him and imprinted on him" tidbit in my writing of her, but this makes me consider reconsidering that writing decision. :3

Valor Bot3 votes

I think it's less about Riot being too lazy to give him an eagle-like cry, and more about them thinking the red-tailed hawk is more characteristic of a bird of prey in general, due to its popularity as a sound effect. That definitely doesn't mean an eagle-like cry couldn't work though, as you mentioned. I think the red-tailed hawk is simply more recognizable, though it certainly isn't as unique as Valor deserves.

"Oh crap, it's the bird" is the feeling I miss from old Quinn that I wish we still had, even though Riot has stated they think Quinn's old ult was unhealthy for the game due to its very nature as a melee DPS form, meaning it's very unlikely to return. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that ultimate to be a good one.

Placentas3 votes

That W and the old Ult, I would be so happy.

HalcyonDweller4 votes

As someone who really likes Quinn I really appreciate your post. This was a great exposition on how and why to improve the character's cohesion.

DarkFlameKitsune1 votes

{quoted}

As someone who really likes Quinn I really appreciate your post. This was a great exposition on how and why to improve the character's cohesion.

Thanks for the comment! I have loved Quinn since I started playing League back in the fall of 2010, and I really think she's needs some love the devs just aren't giving her.

RottedApples4 votes

all i want to do is play old quinn. thinking about new quinn makes me extremely sad.

DarkFlameKitsune2 votes

Hey, chin up, bud! Riot has hinted that they're gonna give Quinn some love here soon and until then we have to give them what we want from said upcoming (perhaps in a year or two) VGU so they have something to work with.

Varnoc4 votes

They're omnipresent

This is something that I feel Riot really missed both on the initial conception (can't really fault them here because they were limited on tech), and upon her rework (not even going to touch that).

Valor's only around for two or three abilities, and for a limited space of time at that. If they had him flying around Quinn at all times, like you would expect him to, he could be much more important to both sides.

The concern that Quinn and Valor would become more like Wolf and Lamb currently are is a valid one, but not one that I think has much ground. Wolf is only visually involved in two abilities (Wolf's Frenzy [W] and Mounting Dread [E]), and thematically involved in the passive, but aside from that, doesn't do much.

If Valor were to orbit Quinn consistently, he, unlike Wolf, would have a constant presence via his role in applying Harrier marks and his Blinding Assault, something that would need to be in the back of your opponents mind consistently. This constant threat alone makes him feel much more important to both the character and the champion as a whole.

This alone is not enough. To make him feel like a part of a team, rather than a tool, Valor's orbit should be dynamic. Valor would fly further from or closer to Quinn based on factors like terrain, fog of war, and current and recent enemy positions. His speed could also vary depending on these factors.

  • Close enemies? Valor would keep a tight orbit.
  • Can't see anyone as you pass through the jungle? Not as close, he'd be out a little ways to see if he can spot anything (could have him squawk when he sees enemies, would really make him feel more alive IMO while letting us get rid of our boring [W] active for something more interesting), but still close enough to help out if you get jumped. (Heck, I'd make Blinding Assault faster if it's cast towards yourself.)
  • Top or Bot lane? Valor's going to spend less time around the edges of the map, or in the direction of your turret than keeping an eye on the jungle, or on your lane opponents

This dynamic "orbit" would give Valor a feeling of sentience, and indeed he would be thinking a great deal with your best interests in mind. Learning how to interact with Valor in the most efficient manner possible would be a keystone of a good Quinn player, learning how to work with your companion is integral to your success.

This is getting kind of ramble-y, but I guess it boils down to this: we don't need to directly control Valor for him to be an important, thinking part of "Quinn and Valor". This isn't to say that those who feel this way are wrong, because they're not, but I feel that direct control of Valor would remove the opportunity we have here to forge Quinn&Valor into the "team" character many of us were sold on initially. Direct control of both parties risks feeling less like teamwork and more like micromanagement, but learning to work around your partner's flaws, their strengths, and everything in between is the essence of teamwork.

Placentas3 votes

" would have a constant presence via his role in applying Harrier marks and his Blinding Assault, something that would need to be in the back of your opponents mind consistently. This constant threat alone makes him feel much more important to both the character and the champion as a whole."

Yes yes yes. I want people to not just say "That fuckin' Quinn" but I want people yelling in frustration and fear "THAT FUCKIN' BIRD!!"

DarkFlameKitsune2 votes

Going off this idea, I think it would be cool for her Q to be reminiscent of Orianna's kit. Manipulating him around the field, perhaps blocking and zoning enemies out from Quinn, but of course, you don't get to control where he goes or where he is at what time. I think that would make it this neat sort of dance in which you have to know where your partner is at what time. It would give her super-strong solo lane presence, and the in-and-out + vision would make her a viable Talon counter again, even with his rework.

Varnoc1 votes

My thoughts were similar to yours in this regard. I do think you should have limited influence on Valor's flight pattern.

Given that Valor would orbit Quinn either clockwise or counterclockwise:

  • Reestablishing orbit after Blinding Assault [Q] is cast could be done in the direction it was cast.
  • W's activation could also signal him to switch directions in addition to it's current functionality.

I think given those two options to influence Valor's flight, you could make it feel quite natural while still retaining gameplay control.

TheLazyOne3 votes

I approve of the warhound champion idea. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

That would be bad ass!

KoKoboto2 votes

Makes me hate the rework even more @-@... Like how could Rito even come up with the idea that Valor could carry Quinn around, that's ridiculous looking at his size. Although the hawk sound is cool after listening to eagle sounds I'd be fine with them as well.

**[Rant Warning]**One can only pray for changes in the far future as Demacia just got a lore update so Rito will leave the place in the dark for a year or so cause that's how they do things... God Rito really pisses me off with stuff. Like just small things take IONS for them to do because they always try to work on other stuff. They NEVER sit down on something and actually make sure they get everything in order and take the time to extensively look at the community opinion before releasing shit. LOOK AT THE NEW SEJUANI AND HER FROST ARMOR.... HOLY SHIT ARE YOU FUCAKSDFKNKASDFNASIDNG KIDDING ME?? YOU'RE SERIOUSLY TELLING ME NOBODY AT RITO THOUGHT THAT THE FROST ARMOR LOOKED UGLY??

http://i0.wp.com/mememyday.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/wpid-angry-must-resist-l.png?w=1408 https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/549961026318258177/CEtqG1D_.png

[/Rant]

DarkFlameKitsune2 votes

I am trying to keep this as rant-free as possible, but yeah, I totally agree!

Also THANK YOU for agreeing with the eagle sounds! It's like, Valor really needs more sounds to begin with, especially since he's always supposed to be there, but to choose to make the Big Media decision of filling in a hawk cry for an eagle because "it doesn't sound intimidating enough" is just lazy. Obviously who ever did it doesn't know what a harpy eagle sounds like... cus yeah, I wouldn't want to hear a harpy eagle if I were walking alone. It's a scary sound, with how raspy it is. Plus, the calls he does make right now just need to be alerting for Quinn, so a trill would be adorable and great!

Beyond Legends2 votes

Well there are simply alot of other stuff to do. Riot has a schedule like most other companies and has to push out changes/content. Beside Sej Quinn were part of a GU so not much art assest was put on doing their skill and looks.

Gehco2 votes

I think you forgot about Central Asia. Central Asians have a deep history in falconry.

"Hunting with eagles is a traditional form of falconry found throughout the Eurasian steppe, practiced by Kazakh and Kyrgyz people in contemporary Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan, as well as diasporas in Bayan-Ölgii, Mongolia, and Xinjiang, China. Though these Turkic people are most famous for hunting with golden eagles, they have been known to train northern goshawks, peregrine falcons, saker falcons, and more."

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/MongolHuntersSong.jpg

DarkFlameKitsune1 votes

I know about them, I was just beginning to get hella off-topic rambling about the different historical eagle hunters in general. Figured it was a good plan to keep going on where I had began and not get too lost in the details.

(I even suggested something along the lines of Ionian Huntress Quinn as a skin for her pre-rework! Especially with that young Mongolian girl who was hunting and in the news around that time.)

Gehco1 votes

{quoted}

I know about them, I was just beginning to get hella off-topic rambling about the different historical eagle hunters in general. Figured it was a good plan to keep going on where I had began and not get too lost in the details.

(I even suggested something along the lines of Ionian Huntress Quinn as a skin for her pre-rework! Especially with that young Mongolian girl who was hunting and in the news around that time.)

How about Quinn the Merciful skin? Joking lol. BUT. She literally was going to spare those Noxian troops in her updated story, that is pretty impressive and rare to see a Demacian act in that manner against their arch-enemies. I gained a lot of respect for Quinn after that. It proves that she see's them (noxians) as humans first then noxians. Truth be said, if she saw them as Noxians first, she would have attacked them on the spot. If I was one of those Noxian soldiers, I would not attack at all, rather bow my head, show respect/honor and give her back that stolen satchel.

Tesla Effect2 votes

Valor is an Azurite Eagle, aka fictional eagle.

Saixos2 votes

Personally, as far as Valor's sound call goes, I somewhat agree but I feel that if they changed it in this way then people wouldn't be too happy about it. While eagle sounds would be more accurate, Valor's current sound is a lot more aggressive and feels better to hear as a player imo. I'd rather they change their minds about Valor's species to make him a hawk than move his voiceover to being less aggressive. I agree with Valor Bot that he should have his own unique voiceover made from a blend of bird calls, and I think that Valor making a variety of calls particularly when joking with Quinn would add a lot to his depth. That said, I think that at some point we need to stray away from factual accuracy and simply go with what feels good ingame. Much like how Vi without punches doesn't fit too well, I think a Valor with chatter would be off-putting.

Next, yeah, Valor's size is a massive issue. I'm not going to say anything else about it, it's screwy and needs to be fixed.

As far as warbird goes, I wouldn't mind too much what they do to them as long as Valor is significantly more present in her kit. I've always prioritised my own enjoyment of the character over the theme, so I would prefer them to focus on staying true to Quinn and Valor and trying to sharpen their current playstyle and identity, picking one and focusing on it, rather than shifting them more towards a falconer theme and going into a different direction entirely. If they manage to do both, then I'd be happy.

Obligated comment about r/QuinnMains and our Discord and why you aren't on it

Valor Bot1 votes

Viscerality also plays an important role, yeah. If hawk calls simply sound cooler and feel more powerful than eagle calls, then I agree that's good enough reason to use those instead. Though I still think Valor's calls should be totally unique instead of belonging to one species of bird in particular.

I've always wished Valor was a Demacian hawk or falcon instead of an eagle. The falcon's diminutive size means Valor would no longer be used as a mount, functioning simply as a swift and lethal bird of prey. Not to mention falcon silhouettes are just so much more beautiful and characteristic of an aggressive hunt; heck I'd love if Valor had a diving animation like this:

http://i.imgur.com/twM6VGd.jpg

Also, hi Saixos <3

La Belle Sauvage1 votes

A great initial post with a lot of interesting replies!

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