How is Aurelion Sol ontologically incoherent. [Thoughts open to Riot and community]

kalista my waifu··7 votes·3,293 views
Mount Targon | League of Legends

Hi Riot, hi buddies,

First of all, i'm going to talk about something I study in my native language (french) and which is quite hard to transcribe in english but I'll do my best efforts at being understandable. I've been attentive to all Riot efforts in building a coherent story about Mount Targon and I welcomed it with a real joy. I also saw that some mates did some great work (I found it here : http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/JPc1qxs7-where-are-my-science-fiction-and-science-people-at-lets-talk-about-aurelion-sol) to give feedback about it's physics coherence. But beyond the φύσις (read it phusis) comes the μεταφύσις, metaphysics. And that's a really interesting point, in Aurelion Sol lore, Riot offers us the hardest point to conceptualize as a lore : the cosmogony, the ontological foundations of Runeterra.

The analysis will be working on 2 axis :

  • Ontological Analysis

  • Emotional impact of the ontological analysis


  • Ontological Analysis

The obvious reference Riot made in its lore seems to be made to Greece and pre-socratism. If Socrates represents the moment philosophy becomes rational and gives up all its poetical axis, we must admit philosophy existed in other aspects before Socrates.

Flattered by this audience of countless worlds, he became fascinated by their fledgling civilizations, who crafted amusingly self-centered philosophies on the nature of his stars.

Those "self-centered philosophies on the nature of his stars" may possibly make reference to two philosophies : either Zoroastrianism or the proto-philosophy. The remaining text, the litteral iconography used by the author seems to make Aurelion Sol more a reference to greek system than a zoroastrianism mystical thing. (We will develop it later)

Why would it refer to proto-philosophy ? (What we called before pre-socratism)

We have to understand that before being anything, before being a quest of wisdom, philosophy was an analysis of the world. It was absolutely not distinguishable with biology, arithmetics, physics or anything. It was just a long meditation on the world. However, it had a caracteristic : tame the laws of nature.

The fracture between pre-philosophy and birth of occidental philosophy is the moment Greeks stopped to look to the sky in a worshiping way but analyzed the phenomenons and found their regularities. The art of fouding laws to the world is philosophy. This story of looking to the sky to find a regularity in stars movement is related in the conception of phenomenology by Edmund Husserl, a major figure of german philosophy in XXth century for the curious people. This analyze of phenomenons is what nowadays a lot of people are trying to call the purest, the most authentic philosophy.

To come back to Aurelion Sol, that's PRECISELY what he's talking about, those "philosophies" human theorized on the nature of his stars are basically the description by Aurelion Sol of the birth philosophy from his "goddish" point of view. However (there's always a "however"), the question is about this "self-centered", aren't those philosophies looking to the sky and therefore looking for alterity, for "something else", something "bigger" than them ?

The answer is in Emmanuel Levinas word in his 1961 book "Totalité et Infini" : "Philosophy [author's note, in a greek way] is an egology." What Levinas is telling us there is that philosophy is just the gesture of bringing alterity (stars in our question) to the same we are. It's an assimilation movement. In other words, those philosophies are just a negation of an objective analysis of world's laws.

So here we can understand how Aurelion Sol is working, he's a being able to see humans without failing in their methodologics issues. He avoids their reefs because he's something else, something bigger. All this analytic moment leads us to understand why Riot wanted to make Aurelion Sol falling under the Targonians control. But Riot, you didn't explained it at all, sorry but a "crown" (symbol of majesty, k) manipulating such a god is a pure non-sens if we don't look to the symbolic masturbation you're gifting us here. There's another incoherence about that but we will come back on it later.

The question I wanna ask now is : **What's Aurelion Sol ? **

I mean, is it a god ?

_ I’ve heard the names they call me: prophet, comet, monster, god, demon… So many names, all missing the mark._

So god is missing the mark right ? Well I think it's right. In fact, the answer is in the suspension points, yea, all of those names are missing the mark but the "name" of Aurelion Sol is given in his champion insights :

Creator http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/champions-skins/champion-preview/champion-insights-aurelion-sol

I think the french translation was more precise in a conceptual way (yea i dare say it) because they called it "Demiurge" and that's exactly the stuff we're talking about here, Aurelion Sol is a demiurge, a star-forger, a black-smith. Aurelion Sol is NOT a Creator in a classic meaning.

Now we're entering into the tight spot of our discussion. Before going deeper I seriously need to finish to prove that Aurelion Sol is really inspired by greek tradition. Well, add to all we said before that when Riot talks about "arrogance" in it's lore, it's an obvious reference to hybris, the arrogance toward Gods. I know i'm going really fast on this point but it's because we will analyze it deeper in our emotional analysis of the champion.

First of all, i'm going to expose the real theory of the greek Demiurge and then I'll compare it as much as I can to Riot's conception of a Demiurge with all the incoherenes it does presents.

There's two main theories of the Creation (in a metaphysic perspective), the first one is the most common right now and is creationism. God is the only being existing and creates the materia ex nihilo, from nowhere, he just creates materia because he's god and he doesn't give a shit about rationality, he's omnipotent. That's the monotheistic theory and that's what Aurelion Sol is NOT.

The other one (the good one in Aure's case) is the "blacksmithing" theory, God is not a God in a monotheistic way because he's not omnipotent, materia was just here and we have no fucking idea why because greeks never asked themselves why. He's a Demiurge. Here I have a methodologic issue because in french we have the word "finitude" which is the caracteristic of being end and which doesn't exists (at my modest knowledge) in english so i will call it "endness" (yea i can't do something else sorry). So yea the word has an "endness" and is limited, at the beginning it's like a canvas.

And wait, wait, wait :

_he roamed the vast nothingness, seeking to fill a canvas of incalculable breadth _

Yea c'mon Riot, that's cool, you did it. This perspective is totally demiurgic. So basically, the theory of the Demiurge explains us the Demiurge has (in a very artistic way) all the materials pre-existing like the painter and just used it to make its work. That's the MAIN Aurelion Sol theme. Basically, Aurelion Sol is a guy who was here with elements to forge the world.

So there we got two things to precise : Nope bro, Aurelion Sol didn't create anything in an "absolute" way so the word "nothingness" means NOTHING.To create from nothing like you described it above, he should be omnipotent (monotheistic way) but he's absolutely not. And from nothingness, nothing (no things, yea we love puns in philosophy) comes, that's the most absolute rule of Greek philosophy. (Check Parmenides' poem, positive gives positive, negative gives negative, bloody simple). But I know you Riot guys aren't that stupid and predicted it so you give us keys. In Aurelion Sol's battle, he finds elements to create mini-stars, another evidence is that all the star he forged contains some essence of himself :

_That’s how I know when even one of my darlings winks out from existence, ejecting jets of energy and, with it, the very substance of my own spirit. _

And also :

The result is a dwarf replica of one of my majestic glories burning in the depths of space.

Yo cool, Aurelion Sol doesn't create from nothing, so the nothingness word you used previously is an absolute NONSENSE. Aurelion Sol needs materia to create, he's a Demiurge. I think you're conceptually really obscure in your presentation of Aurelion Sol role in the creation. He didn't create everything obviously, he just forged the stars. In this reading gate, we can understand that Aurelion Sol is quite similar to the aristotelian demiurge of the Metaphysics (Lambda book) where Aristotle describes this First Being working with the prima materia but never going further, letting things go and develop itself to a telos, an End. This point too will be analyzed deeper in the second part.

Here comes the last point on this first part, Riot, you screwed yourself up :

Born in the first breath of creation

... I mean c'mon, do you even know why a demiurge is useful ? Are you aware that in its "Proslogion", Saint-Anselm uses polytheists arguments to prove that the unique christian God exists ? In other words, are you aware that this sentence totally RUINS the utility of all the things you're building up around ? The cosmological argument is that everything in this world has a cause. So everything is relative to a cause, but then if you go on and on from a cause to its anteriority we MUST find an absolute cause, something who was there and who caused all that, this cause IS God/Demiurge/Blacksmith/Creator, that's just the BASICS of ANY cosmology. And you Riot dare come and talk about a birth of Aurelion Sol and a "breath of creation". OK, the "breath" is an obvious reference to the greek πνεῦμα (pneuma) and all that shit but i mean couldn't you setup it in another way like in creating a real Pantheon and ontological authorities ? All the thing you're building is here to explain us why the world is this way, who's at the origin of the world, of those stars and you say that there is again something more anterior to Aurelion Sol.

But then, Aurelion Sol is just responsible of the stars and was born to "design" those stars. That would be coherent, however there's an incoherence again, because Aurelion Sol appears in the NOTHINGNESS. You used the word nothingness enough, compared the material world Aurelion Sol forged to the Void enough to make us understand that Aurelion Sol is ANTERIOR to all of this. Then we must admit it's just a plothole, in which way Aurelion Sol can be born if he created the most anterior creations of the world on an empty cavnas ?

So there, I feel you have some ideas but you exploit all of this in such a weird way, mixing a lot of pantheonic and ontologic amazing ideas into one entity, that's a reef.

  • Emotional Aspect

Ok we're coming to the last section of this. I could sum up all of the things i'm going to talk in one sentence :

Why is Aurelion Sol so cocky ?

First of all, you have to understand that for your random reader (me), read that your demiurgic dragon was inspired by David Bowie can lead to dangerous shocks. (Cf. Champion Insights)

Then, I think everybody here understood why you made Aurelion Sol so cocky, it's because he loves to contemplate his work and is really proud of it. However, that's an error. A God (in its pantheonic way) can feel, Zeus loved, had sex with a lot of girls and had quite a cool human life. But the concept itself of creator, of demiurge is empty of those considerations. In other words, you anthropomorphized the being you couldn't make a human being. If we made an analysis of why we feel pride when achieving something, I think we will all end-up with the intersubjectivity theme in the head. Did Aurelion Sol had something to prove to his Dad ?

Pline the Younger wrote that we use art to devote a sort of immortality of the being. Jean-Paul Sartre (and Heidegger behind) saw in art a social exercise, a way to interact and show how we could be more than an animal, how we could live as a Dasein, german word meaning a Being-there, a being in question of himself. I think those two perspectives are enough to underline the theme of intersubjectivity in art. This is not a real critic but more a question : Who's the recipient of Aurelion Sol's art ? Inferior beings like humans ? The fascination of Aurelion Sol for humans is more the fascination of a human for the wildlife development more than an equal relation where he likes his partner. He likes to be sanctified but didn't create this humanity (if he did, that would be even more absurd), those massive humans shouldn't even call his eye in the servile way of the artist looking for compliments.

This incomprehension goes further, we said before that on of the main themes of the Aurelion Sol's lore is hybris. But shouldn't the hybris be univocal ? I don't get why Aurelion Sol recognizes humans as demigods.

_These obtuse demigods are my captors? _

I just don't get what's going on in the head of this entity. He's tortured between two sides, looking majestic and servile to the look of humans.

This servile conclusion is just logic, if you make an entity so cocky, he'll necessary look for the look of someone else and therefore will be relative to something else. But, be relative to something is incompatible with the role of the demiurge who's absolute, so is deeply incoherent.


TL;DR : Idc, don't read if you don't want to.

Don't hesistate to start the discussion on this basis, i'm seriously asking myself about the ontological coherence of this champion. I love the idea and seriously love that Riot implies themselves in the cosmogonic flap of Runeterra, but I think you Riot guys aren't aware of how hard it is to keep a serious consistency.

Thanks for reading :)

22 Comments

IronwallJackson3 votes

It seems pretty trbitrary to declare that a demiurge can't be given feelings merely because of their role. Why can't the metaphysical blacksmith feel, and why can't he create art for its own sake?

kalista my waifu2 votes

Well I must recognize I was speedy fasty on that point but let me explain myself. The demiurge is not just a role, he's a being. If he feels a feeling, then the only one he can feel is Love for his creation (nothing christian propagandist in this, it's just Aristotle words in his description of the demiurge). Why love ? Aristotle explains that love is basically the only feel the demiurge can feel by pushing his creation to its end (end = perfection, outcome). However, this is just an hypothesis and I personally don't really agree with Aristotle on this point.

I just feel like Aurelion Sol is way too far above to feel this kind of things toward humans. Aurelion Sol can either look at humans like if he was looking at ants or like if he was looking at children. But I honestly feel like he can't be frustrated and try to compare himself to them.

I understand that he looks at them and admire his own production but I feel like it's more the human's job to contemplate the demiurge than the god's job to admire the humans. You can have pleasure looking at ants, the only appreciable thing in this moment is your obvious superiority to their in spite of their organisation.

But you're right, this is an absolutely open question and I have no exact answer to give.

About creating art for his own sake, the way he loves to contemplate and to take in perspective the intersubjectivity (he notices other forms of life) makes me feel like he can't establish the interaction between human and his art (he talks about them establishing philosophies admiring the sky which is quite an evidence imo)

Thanks for reading bro, that's cool !

IronwallJackson2 votes

Yeah, I read your whole post. Mind you, I didn't quite understand all of it since I'm not well-versed in philosophy, but I certainly got the gist of it.

More importantly though, I asked about creating art for its own sake as a rebuttal to the claims of the old philosophers. There are many reasons to create, from the desire to express oneself, to exerting one's agency in the space around them. The very existence of Aurelion Sol's consciousness is enough to drive him to create; there's no need for an audience.

kalista my waifu1 votes

To give you an historic answer, the art of creating "art for art" is really recent in humanity's history. It starts with Baumgarten in the XVIIIth.

You point something here incredible, it's "Aurelion Sol's consciousness" which is THE point I missed in my post. Well, Aurelion Sol is described by riot as a "pure thought", Aurelion creates by THINKING and that's exactly the same process the aristotelian's demiurge uses. (the formula is νοήσεως νόησις in Aristoteles language which you can read noesis noeseos and which means thought of the thought)

Well I'm not sure about it to be honest but I don't feel like a "pure thought" can do another thing than think. However, I think that to create art, you must feel the feel.

"Esthetic" comes from αίσθησιs (aisthesis) which is the sensation. And to sense the things, you need to create an interaction with the world different from the simple thought, you need to have a flesh to endure the world.

That's the ambiguity of Aurelion Sol I just can't get, how can he feel without flesh ? He's absolutely etheral, how can he feel such a pride, such human feelings being not human ?

Ofc that's an open question, Riot obviously oriented a full-feel reading of Aurelion Sol but I don't know if it's coherent in its conception itself.

IronwallJackson1 votes

I may have an answer.

If Aurelion Sol is a thinker, and he was created into a primordial nothingness, then it would only make sense for him to become a demiurge. Because what does a conscious mind crave? Stimulation. And what is more stimulating than nothing? ANYTHING.

Once you've contemplated yourself, you've pretty well run out of things to think about since you can't even adequately compare yourself to your surroundings.

Something gave the dragon a form, a mind, and an impetus, which he in turn used to create the stars, because nonthingness is wicked boring. He's arrogant because he was first and because everything he sees was ultimately wrought by his proverbial hands.

Stars Shaper3 votes

What ppl keep forgetting is that Aurelion Sol was all cozy and calm when he was forging stars around the universe. He was curious and had a sort-of distant parental feelings towards life forms emerged by the forming of planets and such, he was curious.

After he got tricked and enslaved experiencing such evilness from the Targonians that bound the life of his stars to his obedience he got rightfully angry and his pride as a cosmic being, a star forger became a display of power towards Targonians and other ppl/civilizations in order to remeber them who were they dealing with.

Any deep analysis of philosophy, psychology etc seems always to miss this mark.

kalista my waifu1 votes

Thanks for your comment.

I have two questions for your answer :

  1. Isn't the curious feel of Aurelion Sol first of all a feel AS throws to his own creation and then kind of a pleasure of contemplating what he painted ? In which case AS is just cocky since the beginning. I mean, Aurelion Sol loved to contemplate his creation from the beginning, Champion Insights are quite precise on it comparing him to David Bowie.

  2. What would the world become if its keystone (the demiurge) was under the control of a relative cause (the human being) while he's the absolute, the most fundamental, the FIRST one ?

Stars Shaper2 votes
  1. I kind of agree with your vision. And I want to add that Riot stated that in the creation of stars AS put a bit of himself in each of them, it was no simple toying with his powers but his meaning of existence.

  2. That's where AS doesn't fit the "Demiurge" (If my memories of philosophy are still bright). AS doesn't have a great design in which life forms played their part, he is not a "divine" being and he himself tells us so. He is an artist, a shaper, a creature of the universe... not a God. He surely is a powerful weapon but humans (Targonians*) having him at their disposal doesn't give them some sort of metaphysical power. To use a metaphore it would be like kids using their dad's gun to play cowboys with friends. It's somethign they cannot control and should be afraid of because they cannot comprehend the force and the danger it posseses.

LostFr0st2 votes

He doesn't recognize humans as demigods. He is referring to the Targonians which are entirely separate races.
Targonians inhabit human bodies in the cases of Pantheon, Leona, Diana and are also known as 'aspects' in the lore.
I'm super hyped for the Taric lore stuff^^

kalista my waifu2 votes

Yea you right about that, that's what he calls the Aspects. You right but my point isn't here. It's more about the flesh. Even if the Aspects are demigods, they are made of flesh and he's describing them as ants. He's aware they are not Himself. Furthermore, i'm asking myself about who's the recipient of Aurelion Sol's art.

Thanks for your answer

LostFr0st2 votes

Ah I see now, it's written à la Zola. mb. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn] I miss Lit reviews now QQ

I like to think Aurelion makes the art for the feeling of making art.
The reaction of the ants is a bonus. :3

He's so beautiful in-game though~

kalista my waifu1 votes

that must be my french roots lol, thanks for the feedback :)

GreenLore2 votes

As for how a crown could enslave such a being: Well there is always the comparison about how the difference between mortals and aurelion sol is like the difference between a human and ants. But something that we tend to forget about this,is the fact that there are ants who can kill humans,if they catch the human off guard,just because one being is vastly superior to the other doesn't mean that the inferior one is completely unable to harm the superior one.

As for the Nothingness: Sols lore mentions that Sol has some "equals",so I think what they meant is that Aurelion and his equals were basically born in an empty world. Of course it wasn't truly empty,because Aurelion and his kind existed in it,but aside from them it was really just nothingness. And Aurelion created the stars using nothing but his own energy and spirit,things that not only come from himself,but are immateriell to begin with,so he does not use a materia to create stars.(and well it doesn't really say that aurelion creates stars from nothingness,like I already said,the nothingness probably just described the world around him)

Stars Shaper1 votes

About the crown thing. It's pretty obvious to me that Targoninas had some knowledge of "cosmic magic" be it by their own or with the very help or Aurelion that wanted to care about this ppl so talented in their civilization.

kalista my waifu2 votes

I didn't want my post to be too much specialized but prima materia is immaterial. Because if it wasn't immaterial, then it would be impacted by contigency. That's one of the main points of greek demiurgic cosmogony. Check Aristotle's prima materia if you're curious in it.

I think the word nothingness has a lexical impact really too much important to use it without considering what it does mean. I also feel that when you try to be precise as much as Riot tries to by refunding your lore, you can't allow yourself to use a word without considering its impact previously.

Ethereal3112 votes

I agree with your post, but I feel like there are more fundamental mistakes that Riot make in their most recent lore pieces. Also I think your critique is too specialized for most people to understand it and it's not especially relevant to the lore as a whole.

kalista my waifu2 votes

I agree with you, my post is perhaps a bit too clumsy in its popularization but I think that all those questions are fundamentals because they are beyond everything.

The metaphysics tries to discuss on the most primal thing ever made and that's exactly what Riot is bringing us here, that's a tough point and that's obviously why I think Riot had difficulties expressing it. My only intention was to try to discuss those tight spots

333lom2 votes

Hi, I enjoyed reading your post! two threads about the inconsistencies in Aurelion's lore, yours and the one who you linked, both are great. Demiurge is exactly what Aurelion should be, judging by the few facts we were given about him. Other details, like you mentioned, go completely against this and create an incoherent mumbo-jumbo that just sounds interesting to a reader unacquainted with physics or philosophy. Demiurge is an entity that creates from pre-existing matter, yet then we're given the information that there was nothing than him, and perhaps other celestials. Contradictory. Then he'd have to create the stars using the material from himself, which would mean that he'd have to be larger than the observable universe, as stated in the thread you linked, which is true.

The writers obviously weren't sticking to any existing philosophical school, yet they made a mesh of whatever they found interesting. Now judging by what we were told, the only thing I can think of what they actually wanted to say was, that the "Breath of creation" - their literal god, or the Big Bang of their universe, created only the Celestials. Then the Celestials proceeded to create everything else. This still doesn't pass the mark of believable, because, as mentioned in the linked thread, there shouldn't have been any other forces created in the Big Bang. Then by what forces do the Celestials function? And another inconsistency is then how do the forces exist on Runeterra? A different attempt to explain is to say, all the forces were also created alongside the Celestials, but in their universe, there was never the breaking of symmetry of energy distribution like in ours. That would mean that the Celestials had to create everything else from that energy, at least pushing it so that the forces could continue. But this again is contradicted by the "nothingness" from Sol's lore. (And yet another is that, if their universe was absolutely symmetrical after creation, then the Celestials should not exist because they would be the asymmetry themselves. For example: all the energy in the universe is homogenously distributed, only Aurelion exists as something different. But then his sheer mass should attract all of the energy from the universe, resulting in an incredibly large black hole in an empty universe. Okay, this went away from metaphysics and into physics , but still.) I give up, there cannot be any reasonable explanation, even when looking at the whole thing as fantasy.

Your emotional analysis is spot-on. A being such as Demiurge should not have any feeling, since there was no form other than him before he started forging. From the dev post about the creation of Aurelion, reading that they figured a celestial dragon would be arrogant because of being aware what he creates, proved to me that they just wanted to give him a personality; otherwise this being would be uninteresting to the majority of populace playing the game. It's like explaining Aurelion from the perspective of humans, when in fact a character should be explained from his own level. For him, creating stars is something absolutely normal. He shouldn't feel anything, except maybe happiness or satisfaction because of his work. I'm a physics student but I adore philosophy and logic as well. I am glad I found the threads.

kalista my waifu1 votes

I think you 100% got my point. Thanks for your answer, it was a pleasure to read it.

Rebonack2 votes

Just a quick point on Sol popping out of nothing: many (most in fact) ancient religions have the gods popping out of primordial chaos, where chaos is a formless, timeless thing that apparently spits out gods every now and again for some reason? I'm willing to bet Riot is going a similar route (eternal Chaos) as opposed to the alternative (eternal Logos) since they have stated pretty clearly that they want to avoid a Big C Omnipotent Creator.

Legend of Ori1 votes

I like to think that Riot is just setting up to expand League's universe and the scope of its lore. The usage of the phrase "space-faring empire" in his feature page was pretty unexpected, especially since it was referring to the Targonians, who don't really have much use for power on such a scale. There is a serious discrepancy between their presence on Runeterra and their apparent influence.

kalista my waifu2 votes

I agree tbh, all the postulate of my post is that Riot has a great idea here but is kinda exploiting this in a clumsy way.

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