"We have prospered without you..."

SaltyToplaneGoat·May 3, 2016·30 votes·2,235 views

Yeah sure Taliyah.

She calls living as the most barbaric nation since the Freljord prosper while having pretty much negative technological progress and absolutely zero poltical or econimical or militaric relevance? Literally the only thing that has stopped Noxus or Demacia from simply raiding everything is that this land is mostly dead and empty.

And now there is a living god coming back trying to do his best to fix stuff, and all she does is fight him out of youth-induced dumbness? Don't get me wrong, rebelling against the establishment is fine and all. Just look at Ekko - but at least that guy fights against people that are actually a problem. And not the one who is actually trying to rebuild the entire country by himself.

That girl must have gotten too much sun...

38 Comments

HelmightMay 3, 201613 votes

This post in particular explains how Taliyah and her tribe might misunderstand Azir's intentions. It's also important to note that no one besides Azir, the other Ascended, and Xerath know of Azir's promise to free the slaves - everyone else died in the corrupted Ascension ritual. So it's naturally understandable to assume that the resurrected emperor is going to seek a return to how Shurima was before.

SaltyToplaneGoatMay 3, 20166 votes

Considering life conditions in Shurima, I think there would be quite a few people who would accept the slavery if it would mean safety and luxury, compared to their current life.

Be a slave in a wonderful magic empire or be a free and proud barbarian croaking under the desert sun after a pointless life full of unnecessary hardships...

Not to mention that there are no slaves. She could just crush the place, see that there are no slaves and get all over it. But noo, better declare war to Azir based on unproven rumors...

HelmightMay 3, 20163 votes

We don't know quite yet how the story will play out. Maybe Taliyah shows up at Azir's place spoiling for a fight, only to make the exact same observations that you just pointed out and calm down. Maybe Azir strikes first and Taliyah decides she wants to take him down just because he's an asshole. Point is, there may not be a war between the two.

Freedom isn't something so willingly traded in for comfort and safety. Plenty of people - myself included - would rather die on our feet than live on our knees. And you've got to think that after thousands of years, people will have found a way to adapt and live a somewhat-not-uncomfortable life in the desert. They'd be proud of their accomplishments and likely would regard those willing to trade their freedom for safety as cowards.

If you've played Gears of War or read any of the novels, take a look at the Stranded and how they interact with the COG. It's a very similar situation.

SaltyToplaneGoatMay 3, 20162 votes

There is a difference on dieing in comfort in our modern comfortable world - or burning to death under an unforgiving sun while being eaten alive by the Xer'Sai. Or have your entire tribe die because the well-water carried some kind of bacteria that caused everyone to shit their guts out. Or simply croak because of minimal medical supply, while in Shurima you have the Oasis of Dawn that can heal leathal wounds and massive bloodloss. Some bit of manual labor for this load of benefits? It's not like a shuriman slaveholder would expect loyality or you agreeing with the philosophy in some brianwashed way. You work, you get food, shelter and safety in return. very simple.

It's just not comparable IMO.

As I said, that is easy said in our modern world, where we are not constantly exposed to the threat of death by countless things. However, if you were in the scenario, I think you'd rather side with the Shuriman Empire instead of some tiny barbarian clans that might as well get crushed by the rise of the empire.

I really hope Tal does some research, or else this story is just plain stupid <_<

HelmightMay 3, 20162 votes

I hope she does too. I've put faith in Riot that her story won't be a one-note "It was all a misunderstanding!!!!!!" that we see so much of nowadays (especially in romance movies).

To return to my Stranded example: the people who choose not to return to the COG have it FAR worse than those living under the rule of the government. They've got much more limited weaponry, have to deal with Locust incursions without the benefit of a standing military, need to find a way to eke out food supplies to feed people in their encampments... and yet, when offered the chance to rejoin the COG, many refuse. They don't want to be told what to do anymore.

And sure, life on Serra is far closer to modern-day than life in Shurima, but I'd be willing to bet that you'd have a comparable number of people refusing to rejoin the empire - especially if they were doing so as slaves. If Azir was allowing them to join as free men though, I'd assume a far greater percentage would join the empire.

In addition, if Rek'Sai's teaser story is to be believed, there are towns and cities strewn about throughout Shurima. It's not as though EVERY person in the desert belongs to a barbarian tribe. City-dwellers have far more to lose by submitting to Azir than if they keep their independence.

Ebonmaw DragonMay 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Freedom isn't something so willingly traded in for comfort and safety. Plenty of people - myself included - would rather die on our feet than live on our knees.

What is freedom anyways? Do you really think that people is free?

gatchiMay 4, 20163 votes

I think there would be quite a few people who would accept the slavery if it would mean safety and luxury

these almost never go hand in hand. slavery means exploitation. slavery means giving up what little power you have, entrusting your future to people who dont care about your well-being.

granted, you are sorta right, people will engage in shitty relationships if its the least shitty alternative. but champs in league of legends are usually people who stand out, who are brave, and go against the grain. its not surprising she is proud and trying to fight for her people's best interests, even if it means short term suffering.

NA DarklarikMay 4, 20167 votes

Yah... This is something im hoping riot will explain in the Q&A, because to read a quote of RekSai Lore "These old men and boys will scout ahead to warn us of any approaching threats. The caravan master also purchased a few dozen Saih'kharash'i, or "sand walkers." These peasants — poor, **even by this country's MISERABLE STANDARDS **— will trot beside the caravan for their meals. If we find ourselves pursued, we will quickly outpace these unfortunates, leaving them behind as fodder."

This is a land so shitty, that people litterally sell themselves to be eaten by hungry Void sand sharks, just for a fucking MEAL.

She is just so out of touch with the reality of Shurima you wonder what her writters where thinking when they made her view Azir under such a negative light, why? Because a Merchant who knows jack-Ship told her so?

It just dosent make sense.

Darrosh JewfistMay 4, 20166 votes

Playing Devil's Advocate here,

I think one might call the narrator hyperbolic because he's from Noxus and presumably the upper-ish crust where he might get better treatment. Doesn't change the fact that Shurima seems still be in squalor.

It's entirely possible that Taliyah has a warped young mind where she thinks her family's doing fine but in actuality the conditions are wretched. That teenage naivete.

But then again, she's been to Ionia and the Freljord which are both wartorn landscapes... so I guess she's consoling herself in that her desert isn't that bad of a warzone?

NA DarklarikMay 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=tswaEJNL,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-05-04T05:51:13.925+0000)

Playing Devil's Advocate here,

I think one might call the narrator hyperbolic because he's from Noxus and presumably the upper-ish crust where he might get better treatment. Doesn't change the fact that Shurima seems still be in squalor.

It's entirely possible that Taliyah has a warped young mind where she thinks her family's doing fine but in actuality the conditions are wretched. That teenage naivete.

But then again, she's been to Ionia and the Freljord which are both wartorn landscapes... so I guess she's consoling herself in that her desert isn't that bad of a warzone?

Your still basicly just calling her naive. Not much of an advocate there...

My theory is as a small child, she fell and hit her head really hard, probably used her W on herself and landed face first into one of her walls. Would explain how she is so dumb to think Shurima has 'prospered'

Darrosh JewfistMay 4, 20162 votes

Hey man, I'm just _trying _to play devil's advocate.

I believe she is pretty dumb to think the Shuriman situation is good. Unless somehow her tribe is prospering in the middle of a bleak desert and etc...

gatchiMay 4, 20162 votes

Thats quite the elegant and thoughtful theory!! What a fine contribution

SaltyToplaneGoatMay 4, 20161 votes

IKR?

Just HOW shitty must your life be to take a job like that?

She probably comes from a village that is not THAT screwed up, and has some weird sense of patriotism in her head. "Uh noo we always lived like that and we want to keep living like that! Becuase that's our identity and stuff!"

There is a fine line in being loyal to your heritage and just being plain stupid. Some people just don't know what's good for them I guess...

Over InnsmouthMay 4, 20165 votes

I resent that people think that Viktor is in any way a problem. All he wants is to better humankind, that's all.

ShonjlMay 4, 20164 votes

To be honest, I dont see Viktor as really that bad. He sees flesh as a flaw and well to be honest, it is. Flesh is easy to break, cut, destroy, it withers away with age and so forth. So it isn't a surprise he wants a way to fix that. What he did basically removed those weaknesses while still keeping his humanity. He still has his mind, he still has feelings, he just is in a metallic body now.

To be honest, Viktor is on a fairly good path if he doesn't turn his cult into some kind of terrorist sect.

A Superb VillainMay 4, 20161 votes

While I am all for a reasonable defense of Viktor and his ideals, I feel it must be noted that among the Glorious Evolution, Viktor is a special case. Following his betrayal he surpressed his emotions to prevent them from impacting his agenda. Nowhere is it stated he wishes to do the same for others, so it can safely be assumed it was only his emotions in particular he wished to remove.

You are not wrong, I merely wished to point out that Viktor is operating with a seriously stunted array of expression by choice.

MelledoneusMay 4, 20162 votes

Viktor's quote actually alludes to his motives: Viktor "Steel can fix all your flaws!"

He basically implies here that the inefficient parts of the mental and physical being will be removed in favor of more efficient augments. Feelings such as sadness, grief, jealousy, and helplessness all lead to the inability to perform at maximum potential. Thus, they will be removed. That is why many assume he will do that for all others, since he maximizes efficiency and improvement over the weaknesses that make us human. That is the beauty of Viktor.

SaltyToplaneGoatMay 4, 20161 votes

Uhhh Viktor is arguable as his motives are noble, but what about DrMundo or Singed for example?

Over InnsmouthMay 4, 20162 votes

Mundo's psychotic, we can agree.

Singed's lore is so outdated and there's so little personality in it I honestly don't know what's beneath the bald and bandages.

MelledoneusMay 4, 20162 votes

Singed is a sociopath. He will use anything to test out his concoctions, caring little for the repercussions. He will bombard his allies and enemies alike just to watch his work in action. He is in every sense, a mad scientist.

VeraskaMay 4, 20164 votes

She's only lived in shurima- a desert, noxus- a military nation that used her like a weapon she's traveled with a runaway samurai who aint the most personable, and the freijord a frozen wasteland.

Of all those shitty places only one had a family for her, or a community that was genuine to her.

So yea she may see shurima as prosperous, she's never seen somewhere as marvelous as piltover. Plus she's lived in the desert most of her developing life, she (and other shuriman natives) have different values on what it means to be a good land. That piece in the rek'sai lore about how shitty shurima is, is from the perspective of a noxian, an outsider who can't appreciate the culture and such.

plus, the emperors are really looked down on, like they were monsters in the memories of shuriman natives.

gatchiMay 4, 20163 votes

Exactly. I think her narrative has the potential to convey what its like to be in a colonized nation, and to force us to consider that "prosperity" is a subjective matter. A different perspective. So hopefully Riot doesnt fuck it up.

Meep ManMay 4, 20163 votes

Taliyah has no idea what Azir is doing to the nation yet. She just came back. Of course she will only judge him based on what she knows. She's pretty justified, just not asking enough questions.

MelledoneusMay 4, 20162 votes

Except your example about Ekko doesn't really apply here, either. He's rebelling against Viktor, who wants to improve and rebuild the whole world, starting with Zaun. So yeah, Ekko is stopping the most brilliant scientists from improving humanity and fixing its flaws.

BottleCapsterMay 4, 20163 votes

Much as I love Viktor, Its pretty easy to understand why Ekko might not be so buddy buddy with him. The reason Ekko doesn't like him probably doesn't have much to do with the motive of Viktor's work, but rather what he represents. Viktor's research is quite literally unrestrained scientific progress, the same that caused Zaun to come out as such a dangerous place in the first place. To someone like Ekko, Viktor's promises of evolution and 'fixing' the flaws of humanity ring hollow when compared to the number of friends he's had die to crime, experimentation, or any of the other troubles in Zaun that the officials leave alone whilst pursuing their own selfish gains.

gatchiMay 4, 20161 votes

Well put.

GhastlyGhoulManMay 4, 20162 votes

Tbh, people have different ideas for what it means to "prosper". It seems from what I've seen of Shuriman character lore that what they value most is freedom and community. Even in what other nations would consider poverty, they consider themselves happy (or at least happy enough) being able to depend on strong family/tribal bonds. What they lack in resources they make up for in a strong feeling of community.

Now, with the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Azir the bird god, they remember only the stories of slavery and dictatorial rule that were passed down to them by each previous generation (even though their assumptions are of course wrong, Azir is a decent fellow). But to them, slavery seems to threaten the one ideal that modern day Shurimans call "prospering": their communal bonds. So to me it's only understandable Taliyah would tell off Azir saying we've done fine without you.

That's my take on it at least.

gatchiMay 4, 20163 votes

Growing up in a poor town with a strong union base, this is EXACTLY what its like here. People are poor, but they find richness in community, and will fight for that community at any cost. Cause when youve lived financially poor long enough, you know, firsthand, you can survive, and that there are more valueable things in life.

Im really grateful for a champ like this to be made. Really adds some more diversity to the pool, too.

MoonblightMay 4, 20161 votes

The best part is she is more or less spoiling to fight someone who is basically a god and who can control the sands and raise armys...... we all know how that one is going to end up.

ShonjlMay 4, 20161 votes

In reality Azir would literally not even waste his time with her since she is no threat to him, but he would most likely punish her for her arrogance against him.

But then again, this is Riot, where we have actual Gods and even more than Gods like Bard and Sol that are running around with literally ordinary humans like Garen and most ADCs. Top shape humans sure, but Garen is just an ordinary swordsman. Ashe is just an archer. Cait is just a riflewoman etc.

If this was realistic, Azir would have actually turned Shurima into an actual prosperious area by now, or even take over the world if he really wanted. I mean, what exactly could any of the others like Demacia and Noxus and such really do to beings like Azir and Nasus, or even Renekton and Xerath wherever they are?

Darrosh JewfistMay 4, 20161 votes

I imagine growing up in the ruins of your old empire with all the great works of wonder laying in ruins about... that line does feel strange.

It's hard to really say this nation that has built such works and wonders could be so bad. in Ashe's own speech for the Howling Abyss event she references how greater works were wrought by abler hands.

Look around you, these monuments from a bygone age, each older and grander than anything wrought by our hands. These are the works of a united Freljord, a fractured land that we can repair. From these ruins, we can raise a great nation.

If the speculation that Taliyah meets Ashe in the Freljord is true, it might be a strange twist on things.

Icestar1186May 4, 20161 votes

Where is this line from? Azir taunt/interaction on the PBE?

Darrosh JewfistMay 4, 20161 votes

Yeah, it's a taunt specific for Azir.

We have prospered without you."

https://youtu.be/27DZZk5JYIo?t=501

At about 8:22.

AutomatisMay 4, 20161 votes

They've had a habit recently of putting nonsensical quotes into champ kits because they sound pretty. Its harder to notice because these champs have 30 minute VOs instead of 30 second VOs like old champs, where you'd notice if any single quote was crap. There's always a lot of good ones mixed in with the bad ones, and the voice actors execute them well despite the terrible writing.

It works well with Jhin cuz he's all about sounding flowery and pretty.

Kindred works well with it too, but she has a few bad ones. Same with Taric

But look at AurelionSol and all the bad quotes he has He has some good ones for sure, but a ton of garbage ones. Whats with all the looooooove~ quotes? Is he a DRAGON or a valentine card???

LeetriMay 4, 20162 votes

Aurelion Sol is full of himself, he's an arrogant rock star (pun unintended) who thinks he's the center of the universe. You gotta give some examples for "bad" quotes.

TrylobyteMay 4, 20161 votes

My guess is that she's not seen enough of the world to know how bad she has it. The Freljord is a frozen wasteland, Ionia is at war and half-destroyed, and if she's been to Noxus it's likely she got to see the terrible parts, not the better parts. By those standards, yeah, Shurima IS doing pretty good. She hasn't seen Demacia's stability, she hasn't seen Zaun's technology, and she certainly hasn't seen Piltover, so as far as she knows yeah, her tribe's doing pretty well. They've got a relatively peaceful life, a stable standard of living, and some degree of prosperity compared to everywhere else she's been to. The fact she's been on a world tour of the Worst Places to Live hasn't occurred to her yet.

AutomatisMay 4, 20161 votes

"In a constantly shifting cosmos, a world this static is... refreshing." "The stars look very different today." "The depths of space crawl with terrible entities. Pray they ignore this world." "The stories they tell about me? They're probably true." "I see a universe drained of light and heat, where not even a story will survive."

"Love is as real a force as gravity. Try it once in a while." "Stars are wonder and love ignited."

Some are just random and non-sequitur, like him talking about random space monsters or stories. The one about stories being "probably" true makes no sense because he should KNOW they're true. Also why would a star dragon find a static world refreshing?

Then there are the two lines where he just prattles on about love. The second one I find less egregious because I can see him thinking of his work as an act of love. However I still feel like Aur Sol is the type of creator that would tout his power and skill, not tell everyone he puts a lotta luv into them stars.

Don't get me wrong he has a lot of good quotes, but these ones are jarring enough to pull me out of the immersion of listening to his voice.

Also Boop isn't funny.