Anyone else having difficulty playing the latest…

PotatoMancer · 2016-10-22T20:18:43.459Z

... because of their voice lines? I've had to mute in game voices because ivern and kled's voice lines are long, frequent, they don't lower in volume when I move my camera away from them like other sounds, and the writing feels really.. shallow? which is actually a complaint I've had with league's writing for a while but I haven't been able to put my thoughts together that well but these latest champions have really felt like someone writing the same joke 10 times and then gluing them together and calling it a character. Like... the writing in general has felt very event focused, while very rarely or not at all explaining character motivations? With Ivern we're told he was a Bad Guy but then he Hurt an Important Tree so now he's a Happy Tree with very little explanation as to why he was bad in the first place, what motivated him to break the big tree, etc. like, a lot of the things that happen feel like they just sorta.. pop out of the ground for no reason? The world feels substance-less, which I think might be because of how things don't really seem to have realistic character driven motivations, and a lot of it is just "thing happens in world"? Again, I don't have a lot of experience writing or world building myself but from this player's perspective, I feel like the characters deserve more of a personality than the same joke told over and over until you want to claw your ears off. like the dialogue and writing just feels unnatural and like... there's nothing there besides one liners? It's like they're trying to make a burger, but they replaced the lettuce with another patty, and then replaced the buns with more patties, and everything else with more patties, and then looked at this stack of patties and thought that that would provide a wholesome burger experience? it feels over-saturated, like a high-schooler with a new thesaurus if that makes sense? like, if you use new words to vary up how something reads, that's great, but if every single word is a New And Interesting Synonym, then it gets difficult to read, it's harder and takes longer for me to process, and I find it difficult to know what the writer wants me to focus on because every word is given the same amount of gravitas? again it's like the writers are trying to make a cake, but made purely out of frosting? it feels like there's a lack of fundamental world building and character creation going into the champions/dialogue. TL;DR- I would prefer more natural, character driven dialogue instead of a pile of hastily glued together one liners masquerading as a personality.

The SoulforgedOct 22, 20162 votes

Riperino Popperino. I admit her new lines are pretty darn shitty. Her entire character is just messed up and all about being far too overly modest to the point of stupidity.

I just hate it, and even if Poppy stayed as a diving light fighter, I'm not sure if I would still play her.

MordepoolOct 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qx2J3gde,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-22T20:39:00.897+0000)

You're not alone. There was a thread awhile ago complaining about something similar and it was sort of decided that while the quotes aren't bad the frequency at which they keep shouting them could be toned down.

For my part my dislike of her dialogue and personality is why I completely stopped playing Poppy after her rework.

As to the lore I've had similar complaints about an event and rewrite awhile ago. I cannot comment on the new lores for champions however as I have not read any in half a year now.

Mordekaisers lore is pretty decent. The only good thing to come out of the Rework. Even if it felt tacked on

Vhan8765Oct 22, 20164 votes

Poppy's rework was literally the best thing Riot has ever done in all areas, who are you kidding?

If you honestly thought Poppy was enjoyable to listen to before then, gosh, I don't even know how to reply to that. She sounded worse than a chicken being strangled to death and her lines were completely static and one dimensional.

Rework Poppy on the other hand is funny, has an actual personality, and is entirely dynamic in each of her lines. From a creative perspective, Poppy's rework made me want to play her even more. The changes to her kit were great, yeah, but now she is just so much better of a character personality wise. Obviously it comes down to personal preference of course, but I believe anyone with even the slightest creative knowledge could appreciate the changes.

Warlord DienekesOct 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Poppy's rework was literally the best thing Riot has ever done in all areas, who are you kidding?

If you honestly thought Poppy was enjoyable to listen to before then, gosh, I don't even know how to reply to that. She sounded worse than a chicken being strangled to death and her lines were completely static and one dimensional.

Rework Poppy on the other hand is funny, has an actual personality, and is entirely dynamic in each of her lines. From a creative perspective, Poppy's rework made me want to play her even more. The changes to her kit were great, yeah, but now she is just so much better of a character personality wise. Obviously it comes down to personal preference of course, but I believe anyone with even the slightest creative knowledge could appreciate the changes.

Kit changes were great. I just have a thing, the naive, obviously forced trying to be cute really just coming across as kind of dumb stereotype, the forced giggling? Yeah, I hate it. It drives me insane. I can't play her anymore.

Which isn't to say I object to that type of character being in the game. Not at all. But it's just not something I care to listen to. It's the same reason I don't play Lulu or Teemo, really. I hate when things are forcing a "cute" angle. It does nothing for me but annoy.

Which isn't to say that old!Poppy was some masterpiece. But, here's a thing I've found. Those stereotypes: the stoic hardass, the naive doe-eyed hero, the psychotic poet, the ancient evil. There's really no depth to any of them, until they're actually explored in more than a rudimentary manner. Neither Poppy has had that exploration, so I don't really see one as being much better a character than the other. I will say, that Riot's new attempts to expand the lore will give New!Poppy more chance to develop. But stoic mirthless hardass (which was all Old!Poppy was) can also be explored, constructed, and deconstructed. The few times I've seen it done well were very adult works that analyzed the circumstances both culturally and personally that brought them to be so rigid. But it can be done, even well. And I'm sure there's a book or show out there that takes the naive, almost to the point of idiocy, childlike stereotype and thoroughly examines and develops it as well. I just haven't read it, because I hate that stereotype to the point that I have never finished a work that tries.

Vhan8765Oct 22, 20161 votes

I can understand all that, she is perhaps a bit forced into being as cute as she is but I think it's done well in comparison to what we could have gotten. I think though the problem of her being cliche is just due mostly to Riot not really knowing how to make unique characters. Are there really any champions in the game who aren't cliche?

Ahri Typical seductress fox lady. Ashe Typical ideal driven leader. Darius Typical power hungry tyrant. Jhin Typical psychopath. Jinx Typical crazy lady. Katarina Typical assassin. Nami Typical fish. Kled Typical bat-shit insane dude. Orianna Ori is a robot so I can excuse her being cliche. (Though I admit I'm probably bias as all hell, I adore Ori to death.) Soraka Typical celestial healer. Velkoz Typical alien. Ziggs Typical explosion dude. Zyra Typical plant lady. (Just to list off a few.)

Some of the most diverse characters we get are; Annie DrMundo Ekko Kalista Nunu Rammus TahmKench Veigar Zac

Really, we don't have much going for champions in the ideals of creative characters. So the way I see it, we should take the slight amounts of originality we can get because what we could get would be take much worse.

My largest complaint with rework Poppy is that she is perhaps a little too carefree. I would have liked to have seen Riot keep her a bit more headstrong and straightforward about her task than she currently is. Light hearted and fun for sure, but perhaps not so, oblivious to the world around her I guess. Rework Poppy is just a tad too narrow minded compared to what she used to be.

Warlord DienekesOct 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I can understand all that, she is perhaps a bit forced into being as cute as she is but I think it's done well in comparison to what we could have gotten. I think though the problem of her being cliche is just due mostly to Riot not really knowing how to make unique characters. Are there really any champions in the game who aren't cliche?

Typical seductress fox lady. Typical ideal driven leader. Typical power hungry tyrant. Typical psychopath. Typical crazy lady. Typical assassin. Typical fish. Typical bat-shit insane dude. Ori is a robot so I can excuse her being cliche. (Though I admit I'm probably bias as all hell, I adore Ori to death.) Typical celestial healer. Typical alien. Typical explosion dude. Typical plant lady. (Just to list off a few.)

Some of the most diverse characters we get are;

Really, we don't have much going for champions in the ideals of creative characters. So the way I see it, we should take the slight amounts of originality we can get because what we could get would be take much worse.

My largest complaint with rework Poppy is that she is perhaps a little too carefree. I would have liked to have seen Riot keep her a bit more headstrong and straightforward about her task than she currently is. Light hearted and fun for sure, but perhaps not so, oblivious to the world around her I guess. Rework Poppy is just a tad too narrow minded compared to what she used to be.

I think we're on the same page here. Though, I do disagree a little on some of your list of most diverse champions: Creepy evil magic girl has been a trope forever, Mundo is just a parody of the Hulk, Ekko is your typical fledgling hero punk kid they just decided to give him time powers instead of the much more common general physical attributes of super strength and agility (though it should be noted he still does have super agility, it's just not commented upon). Veigar is just a parody of the evil overlord. And so on.

Which goes back, to actually be a real 3 dimensional character the writers that work on interactions have to be amazing, really, only FromSoftware seem to have the knack to make real characters out of a handful of dialogue. Though they build their stories not around what is said, but what is implied, hidden, and you can interpret. Anyway, the way to take these stereotypes and make them into real characters is usually through writing more than just there personality, and fully developing their personality and details in a way that makes them unique on an individual level. Explore what they're good at, what they're bad at, what they love doing, what they're bad at, how are they imperfect for the job at hand.

And that is why I don't really see New!Poppy as that much better a character at least, in her potential. Old!Poppy had the whole 'she's also a diplomat and warrior' to go on which opens up a lot of avenues of exploration. Which isn't to say New!Poppy as the wandering hero doesn't have as many avenues to explore her character, only, LoL already has a bunch of characters in the wandering hero archetype, from Olaf to Braum. But whatever, a good writer can make any concept and turn it into a complex 3 dimensional character. It's only, New!Poppy is starting with a stereotype that I hate, so I'm not interested if they develop her or not.

PotatoMancerOct 23, 20162 votes

I agree with a lot of these points

yes riot is trying to create 'archtypical' champions ie every Knight character should remind you of garen and vice versa, but I guess with the older champions the dialogue lines are shorter so it's easier to ignore? also the dialogue is directed at someone (the player, as a 'summoner') so it feels like a dialogue instead of a navel gazing comment like "me? the hero?? NAAAA"

also about poppy, I personally don't like how they depict her as this spunky character, which to me reads as confident, but also have her not think of herself as a potential candidate? what's silencing the 'what ifs' in her mind? if she's been traveling for a while they must've come up at some point. it just feels like there are a lot of loose ends?

Like, I feel a believable story could be like, poppy's an ex soldier, has a bro in the army, bro gets killed, poppy has huge shattering of confidence, can't imagine herself as a hero after that. but that would need some rewriting of the peppier lines i feel? idk, like it'd need a really great writer to go beyond the trope and make a character, or at least lines of dialogue, that feel believable

and champion-to-champion dialogue also has some potential, if they can make the conversation sound natural and not just one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner after one liner etc.....

Beyond LegendsOct 23, 20162 votes

You don't need to spam a page to get a point across. I have to ask did you read the her lore or read her comic or are you judging a character purely base on voice line? If you are purely judging on voiceline than I would suggest you to read her lore or if you don't want to read just go to Youtube and listen to it.

The voiceline were intended as one liners not a dialouge to a conversation.

Valaran NaraOct 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

also about poppy, I personally don't like how they depict her as this spunky character, which to me reads as confident, but also have her not think of herself as a potential candidate? what's silencing the 'what ifs' in her mind? if she's been traveling for a while they must've come up at some point. it just feels like there are a lot of loose ends?

Like, I feel a believable story could be like, poppy's an ex soldier, has a bro in the army, bro gets killed, poppy has huge shattering of confidence, can't imagine herself as a hero after that. but that would need some rewriting of the peppier lines i feel? idk, like it'd need a really great writer to go beyond the trope and make a character, or at least lines of dialogue, that feel believable

You know, if you make a story of me, I sound like Poppy for a good chunk of it. People around me say I a very energetic and positive individual always on the up and up, but my friends know that I am actually disparaging. If you pay attention to some of the things I say, especially about myself, it's usually negative. I speak of how I can't do anything, or how I am bad at a lot of stuff. I act with confidence, but I speak as though I have no trust in my abilities. Period. I know I have the potential, but at the same time, I just can't commit to believing in it. I love Poppy because of her personality, attitude, resolve, just the entire thing speaks to me on an emotional and mental level. As of right now, her problem is probably just the extent of her existence with that kind of personality in mind. Honestly, it makes me question what's wrong with me right now. Lol.

Now the problem with your suggestion (which isn't too much of a problem really) is the tragedy. What I mean about that is that every character goes through their hardships, but not all of them should be tragic. While struggles and conflicts can build a character to what they are, not all of them should have the "My parents are both dead, I am now an orphan as a 15 year old, and I am now in a life or death struggle which could help save a world of people."

Yes, I exaggerated that last bit, but I use to write a bit as well as roleplay characters I've created. Something I see a lot is a teenager (because average age of everyone is 16-17), who don't have parents and some big sob story about them. They all try to be the center of attention with their story. And they all act with a "hero-complex." They are the main character and everything is fixed because they are the only ones with the true power to do so. To me, Poppy defies that hero-complex by having not a damn shred of it. Nothing in her story is tragic except for the death of Orlorn, but that moment was emphasized as a small step towards what she does now. It doesn't fully define her character, and (while we can argue the variance of it) does not fully take over her life.

She has a mission. She has an objective. It may have been given from a person who died that she admired, but his death isn't consuming and plaguing her thoughts. She. Is. Living.

Oh, and I think one of the values of being Demacian is modesty and a lack of arrogance (which explains why she acts so damn oblivious about her strength. Modesty is something she embodies as a paragon of Demacian virtue)

Beyond LegendsOct 23, 20162 votes

So you spend your whole time crying because a story simply didn't fit you're taste? I mean all you're long winded block of text can simply be sum down to I don't like than what can I even say to you at that point.

I mean no doubt Dark Soul has pretty good lore but I have personally read more than enough story like it. The whole point of Dark Soul is that the lore is hidden behind bunch of things to make it look rare or exotic. Many people have even complain the story is simply.too out there and it is hard to follow. Personally I'm tired of the grim edgy story of it as of late, they whole cycle of suffering a tragedy is such a common trope in eastern cultures. I think you like this lore because you find it exotic or something.

Beside League lore is simply starting out if you don't like how the story direction, you can not really read it. I mean your critizism is not really usefull critizism. Not every thing is for everyone and perhaps league isn't for you.

Warlord DienekesOct 23, 20161 votes

What? I said I don't like Poppy because she doesn't fit my tastes. Because everyone has tastes on what they do and do not respond to as a character. I haven't cried about Poppy's story because as of now Poppy doesn't have a story. She has a set up, a prologue, which was all Old!Poppy had as well.

My post was in response to Vhan in discussion of what does and what does not make a complex fully developed character. And stating that both new and old Poppy really aren't full characters yet, though of the two new Poppy will, hopefully, become one once her story is actually written.

Now it's not a story I intend to read, because, in my opinion, Poppy is an annoying as hell character. But that's not a statement of if she is a well or poorly designed character, that's just one man's entirely biased emotional response to her dialogue.

My post doesn't even really criticize the lore, in this instance. It criticized the early concept that New!Poppy was some amazing or unique character, when, she isn't. She's pretty archetypal. Now, she may develop into a full character, definitely. In fact 10 years down the line if Riot keeps a steady source of writing I bet she will be. Hell, two of their most fully developed characters, in terms of personality development, dynamism of ideas, and changing of goals (i.e. Miss Fortune and Graves) developed into rounded characters (if still pretty archetypal in their design) after only 1 or 2 stories.

In any case, I don't intend to read the stories in relation to Poppy, or Targon, or Shurima. I'm still vaguely interested in Bilgewater and Noxus. But if they go in a direction I don't like I'll stop reading those as well. But this post wasn't about criticizing Riot's storytelling. It was about saying in most cases the stories haven't even happened yet.

Beyond LegendsOct 23, 20161 votes

But that is the point of the lore is a starting out point for where the story is heading...it was never it's goal to tell you an entire story of a character just the starting point of an character. It's flavour text to give people a general idea of what the character is like, it's not story telling like a standard novel. The reason the lore is like this is because people wanted riot to finish foundation work before they get on writing the story. The last thing you want is a retcon of the lore midway like what blizzard does to WoW's lore. Beside most character is an archetype of somesort, their hasn't been an totally “original” story for years. Even Shakespaer's was bases of older tales.

Beside this isn't much of an disccussion, is more akin to an emotion spuge to find others to validate their own personal feelings about something. I mean unless you're pointing out some technical problem with the lore that isn't just nit picky nonsense I don't think their is much value in coming here and crying about it. It's not an disccussion other than simply whining.

I mean the op arguement is basicly complaining about me not feeling it or he simply does not like the character. I mean it's a valid opinion just not a usefull one to a discussion of any sort, other than fishing for sympathey of annoying people (that I rather wish was gone). Alot of people are not even making rational sense and simply asking unrealistic demands. Patient seems to a virture people sevrely lack on this boards when it comes to lore (which is basicly free).

I dislike like the hell out of alot of story things, I dislike the direction of campiness of Overwatch, the mess up state of Wow's lore and Korra as an whole.

I mean this less directed at you but I'm glad that I don't have to come here and shut down the old lore people every other day but it seems that people here always have the most irrational arguement I have seen. I mean you know how annoying to give an valid explanation on why the things are the way it is only to have the other person pluf their ear sing lalala I can't hear you. Then you have the spoil brat wanting everything now or the cowards hidden behind downvotes.

GreenLoreOct 23, 20162 votes

I'd personally disagree about Ahri and Jhin. I mean Ahri was originally going on about using her sex-appeal to lure men into a trap and eat their souls,but the fact that she eventually felt guilty about it,helps to make her a bit less cliche(though one could say that this development in itself is a cliche,that is up to personal opinion)

And Jhin is a bit more complex. He seems to be aware of the cruelty of his actions ,but he uses this whole art-thing as a way to justify his murders to himself. In the end though he is aware that it would be the right thing for him to stop,but he seems to be hugely depressive and killing is the only thing that brings him any joy(or emotions) at all.

PotatoMancerOct 23, 20161 votes

hmm well in these cases i'd be wary about their tendency to use poorly researched mental illness tropes as a replacement for an interesting personality.

like, the whole thing with Jinx being 'crazy' is probably meant to be a reflection of how in pop culture a lot of people see psychosis and other mental illnesses as just a more intense level of quirk, when in reality mental illnesses usually have a lot of aspects and facets that get ignored in favor of perceiving the mentally ill's differences as unpredictability

again it's just their tendency to rely on (historically harmful) tropes instead of doing the work to research the real, lived experiences of mentally ill people

GreenLoreOct 23, 20163 votes

From what I've read Jhins mental illness is actually rather accurate(I remember that a clinical therapist even wrote about how he was impressed by jhins case,though this being the internet we can't be sure if the person was honest or not).

And honestly I don't think that they relied that much on tropes,because it is actually uncommon to depict a psychopathic killer that way. Most of the time psychopathic killers are depicted simply as beings who kill for fun(or some other weird belief),rarely showing remorse or self-doubt about their actions and rarely going into detail how they feel when they don't kill.

Not to mention that saying something is cliche because it is based on tropes is kinda wrong anyway,cause everything is basically made of tropes(and avoiding one trope is usally a new trope anyway) and tropes are tools after all.

PotatoMancerOct 23, 20161 votes

well if that's the case with jhin that's great, but what about jinx? i feel like if they want a character to have high energy and be eccentric, they can just do that without calling her crazy.

And the main characters that have been bothering me are poppy, kled, and ivern, because of their reliance on tropes. Not to say that tropes are bad, but they shouldn't be the only thing there. There should be a character whose actions are reminiscent of tropes, not just tropes for trope's sake.

it just feels like, what they did with jinx, they've done again with kled, where when you think about 'why' a character does something, the answer is, well they're crazy. which feels really lazy and again feels like a lazy use of mental illness as a stand in for actual character traits.

like, it feels like any time they explain something by saying 'the character is JUST CRAZY' they're being lazy? because they could just create a character with depth and reasons behind their actions instead of throwing the mentally ill under the bus, because as i think i mentioned before, the mentally ill do actually have reasons behind their actions, and tropes that ignore this are harmful because they teach people that mental illness is inherently impossible to understand, when in reality people with mental illness are more than pure trope.

Again I'm not saying Riot SHOULDN'T use tropes, I'm saying that from my perspective, they have been POORLY NAVIGATING them and NOT ACTUALLY DEVELOPING characters, and that just bother me.

Beyond LegendsOct 24, 20162 votes

Not every character needs to have a deep understanding to a character. Jinx has a backstory that will eventually explain why she is crazy. As for Kled why he is insanity is different from Jinx. He is a yordle and it's been ethtablished all yordle has some sort of mess up trait, teemo can turn into sociapathic killer, Poppy has insane self doubt, Tristana is trigger happy and Ziggs really like explosions. This has been set up as thematic link between all of the yordles(of course not all of them are finished).

Not every character has some sort of deap clear cut motivation. Humanity is something that is rational and irrational. Not everyone has somesort of understanding of what they are doing ie why people wanna fuck. You're falling into the pit trap of thinking every character has some sort of logic to justify their beliefs. Not every character needs to be an overly rounded character.

I think the problem is not with Riot story telling but with you as you haven't taken the time fully understand an character. I think you need to read the bio for the new chanpions again carefully instead. Riot lore is very rich and I think you need to spend more time digesting it.

Anyone else having difficulty playing the latest champions...

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