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Saying goodbye to the Lore and League

Talos of Altmora··24 votes·3,029 views

Hello everyone, this is probably going to be my final post ever on the boards. As you know, I have written about the new Targon and my hate of it for about three post, and another post that was an open response. This was actually my first time in exposure to the boards and I met a lot of other players and found myself trying to answer questions, type up responses to those who agreed and disagreed with me, and generally had a good time. I'm not even kidding, everyone I've interacted with on the boards (aside from a few special cases) have generally been polite, and I can appreciate that at the very least, there are good and honest people in the community that I can appreciate, and maybe even call a friend.

Sadly, that brings me to this post, where I would like a revelation I've had about the Lore in league of legends. I have stated many times that the lore was the main draw for me, characters all with a distinct personality, fun gameplay, and interesting stories were plentiful. It drew me away from DOTA 2 (which, while lots of fun, doesn't have that much of a story behind it IMO) and introduced me to the world of runeterra. I loved it, but most of all I loved Targon. While I genuinely liked ALL the characters released (Teemo only in pure lore terms, I still think he's a dirty little weasel in-game) I noticed the lore retcons that happened before my time (about 1.5 years ago from what I can tell), and to be perfectly honest, I could see the fans being upset, but since I had just joined, I shrugged my shoulders and kept playing, reading the lore, and falling in love with runeterra.

Then, Burning Tides happened. While I was never really invested in Miss fortune as a character, I found it shocking that a woman who, from what I could gleam from the old lore, was someone who could kick your ass if she needed to, she would prefer to use guile and get out without killing someone, orchasted the whole thing. I also thought Graves and TF's reason for there new grudge wasn't as good as the old lore (Aregor Priggs mean anything to you?) and the circumstances behind Tf's Betrayal (if you can even call it that) made Graves look like an idiot. However, I rather enjoyed the story because aside from a couple of changes, it captured some of the spirit of old lore. However, to write such a story, they changed an aspect of MF's character, I noticed this and decided to let it slide.

I didn't read anything major from the lore until the announcement of Targon. As I have said, Targon was my favorite setting in the lore. I loved the setting, an ancient Greece-like setting with a badass Spartan, A noble Defender with the power of the sun, and a vengeful woman with the power of the moon. I loved that mountain, so it came as a surprise when I read about new!Targon and all the changes they have made to it.

I won't go into detail of what exactly made me dislike it so much, but the Mount Targon they gave us and the old! Mount Targon are completely different settings. I hated it because the one thing I wanted out of it, development of the current characters, didn't happened. Instead, we have strangers with the faces of friends. The new Targonians have a superficial resemblance to the old, but everything I loved about them is gone. It was at this point I started to post on the forums.

Reading through all the responses I got, many people agree with me, and there are a fair number of people who disagree. However, I came to a realization recently. The Lore team seems to care very little about what was previously written. Now, don't get me wrong, I feel that they do care about the characters, and wanting to tell good stories with them, but it seems the story takes precedence over established characters. They "reinvent" them. It seems to me they lose what makes the characters unique, granted they still are unique, but they may as well be different people.

And then there are the reworked champion's like Poppy and Trundle, they are completely different people compared to the original. Trundle's changed background and personality was pretty glaring to the community. Poppy's new, up-beat personality is in direct contrast to her old one, and while I liked new poppy at first, her old personality made her stand out from the other yordles. Still, I will say the gameplay has improved for them, but at the same time I'm sure fans of the old characters aren't exactly happy about it.

The way I see it, those champions that we know and love are gone. Old!Targon? Gone. Old Trundle? Gone. Old Poppy? Gone. The lore team has gotten rid of them, in favor of something they consider better, even the League itself, what gave the game it's name... was deleted. In all honesty, I feel that the lore in no longer worth being invested in. After all, what I liked about the old Targon was gone without a second thought. So was the IoW, so was the Freljord, so was Shurima, ect. Heck, the direction they're going in makes me scared for the characters I love, because how soon until they're strangers wearing the faces of friends.

There is nothing anyone can do about it either. I swore to never buy a product from League with real-world money. I hope other fans of the lore take a similar standpoint, but in all honesty I don't think there are enough to do it. I'm at a loss at what to do. I mean, I love league, I love the game, and I'm proud to be apart of the community. At the same time, I don't want to see what I loved be destroyed like this. If a rioter is reading this, please don't give me an "I'm sorry," or "We hope other stories will be more interesting" just promise me that you'll stop changing characters into different people.

To tell the truth, I always wanted to work for the lore team. I love writing, I love the characters in League, I figured it be a perfect fit. Then Targon happened, and I tried to redouble my efforts to improve my writing and hoped that by the time I got there, I could Bring Back Targon. Then I looked at myself and realized that it made me no better than them, after all, I understand some people (for whatever strange reason) like the new! Targon. Who am I to undo it?

I have decided that after I finished Tales of Targon, I will stop playing League of Legends. Maybe I'll come back every once in a while for a game and to see what's up, but I don't think I can ever muster the same enjoyment out of it like I use to. I love these characters and I still do, but soon, unless we do something, they'll be different people. I don't know what lies in league's future, but whatever it is, I have a feeling I don't want to be apart of it.

Thank you for reading this. Even If you disagree with or have disagreed with me, I would like to say thanks for rewarding my other post and for trying to change my mind. Even if it didn't work I can see the passion you have for it. . I will still check out the comments section for this and answer question, but I will be focusing on Tales of Targon: Leona. I hope this isn't goodbye, at least hopefully not. I hope we meet again

37 Comments

UomoAfide6 votes

When i read the title i was prepared for the next childish rant about lore and was ready to downvote it. But after reading all this i don't think i should, you explained very well the motivation about your disappointment on LoL's lore and didn't insult Riot's way, you just stated what you think was best in your opinion. Always a shame when someone decides to leave a forum with such a rich discussion treasure, but it's your choice and i understand something has broken between lore and you and that's just sad to hear. Farewell and good luck to wherever you might want to go after this experience on the LoL board and thanks for every constructive discussion you might have helped build here.

Angry Monster1 votes

except the OP has made it clear that they only want the old lore. They feel in love with something that was not that deep to began with and was played out. The old lore was at that magical Disney point of "they lived happily ever after, the end". The plot holes for summoners was as deep as the Mariana Trench

I have read all 4 of this guys posts. i can honestly say glad he left.

Anyone who thinks that in 2 years they are going to be able to make a story for 120+ champs and get the reworks done and tie it all together is fooling themselves. The point is for Riot to not paint themselves in a box again.

Blood Magicks5 votes

I feel for you man. I think Riot lore teams should recognize LoL champions are close friends to some of us. Changing a single thing without looking carefully into what the fandom already thinks/feels (as is well known, League fans OVERANALYZE, sometimes in a good, sometimes in a bad way) is a major risk and hazard.

Talos of Altmora4 votes

Thank you, let's hope they can understand that.

Hige5 votes

I have to kindly disagree, I don't want to stirr anything but here you have a player that has been around since Nidalee was released, that was around 6 years ago, at that time I loved the game as it was, just another pc game, stories for characters were there but they never clicked, they felt cheap and done in a matter of minutes, to name a few Sivir being a dominatrix of sorts with tons of money, Pantheon being some war dude and Gragas being just a fat guy who drank wine, neither of them were interesting characters.

I do mention Pantheon because when he was released, mount targon wasn't really a thing, it was called mount gargantuan and Pantheon didn't belong to the Rakkor, he was a STANPAR, yes, like spartan but all mixed up, that's how bad lore was back then, you can search the old archived boards and you'll find people complaining about the awful lore that was going around at the time.

I wanna get my point across without writing a wall of text so I'll try to cut to the chase.

Pantheon's character was given small band-aids all over the place, in order to keep him in line with how the world of runeterra was evolving, with the release of Leona we saw the new name of Mount gargantuan, Mount Targon and with it they got rid of that horrific Stanpar name, sadly, Leona herself wasn't a full character either, the lore team back then STILL made stories on the get go like: "hey here's sun lady, how can she be more sun?" instead of delving into what a character really is they just conceptualized something akin to a base idea AND THEN they tried connecting it to runeterra, hence why Leona was a Rakkor and childhood friends with Pantheon just so they could avoid another Taric-esque character where there's no connection to the world itself.

And that's the key word here, connections, in the past, characters had a very small view of the world, for Sivir, she was a rich kid who knew nothing else, it didn't matter that she was from one of the biggest city-states, no, she apparently lived locked up in a castle and went out for adventures once in a while, she had no friends, no rivals, not anything, and it was this non-sense the reason why lore started to be updated, in order to better understand each character we need to understand the world as a whole.

The problem? band-aid fixing, this was the case even for new characters, for your beloved Leona this happened as well, Leona was the first female tank of league, so naturally they wanted to connect her with a war theme and the artisan of war was the perfect anchor, see how tacky it looks?

-"Well, she's our first female tank, if we connect her with pantheon she'll stay somewhat war themed" -"What's the best way of connecting two characters that look completely different from each others?" -"CHILDHOOD FRIENDS!"

There was an obvious lack of thought into old lore, at the time they weren't able to understand how to connect all of these stories that happened to spurt every time a new character was thrown their way, they thought the institute of war was the answer at some point, but that definitely wasn't working (The IoW is the end of the story, not the beginning) and then they realized that developing runeterra was the way to go BUT you can't fit characters in there that weren't thought to fit in since the beginning, so you gotta make changes, take away everything that doesn't help character development (childhood friends) and deepen what does (Mount Targon isn't a city-state, then what is it?)

Ended up with a wall of text... damn.

Anyway, I find it amazing that you fell in love with the Frankenstein stories of the past but you cannot blame the team for trying to fix the approach of the game's lore. For someone who's been here since the beginning, current lore is a HUGE improvement from what we had, the characters changed, yes, but not understanding this is simply denying that the game had an infancy state and that currently lore is a teenager, a bit odd at times but starting to bloom into something awesome and not just because it's riot games, no, when you read the stories without holding a grudge you realize they're amazing stories on their own, the type of stories that make superhero movies nowadays!

Headbiter11 votes

Thing is that even the patchwork lore of the past had actually more depth than the new lore, as was pointed out several times over the course of numerous threads.

Burning Tides turned an actual conflict based on betrayal and broken trust into a mere misunderstanding (and Graves into a comedically stubborn moron), Targon turned i.e. Diana from a skilled scholar, researcher, cryptographer and archeologist into a blank slate that is literally dragged through her entire life (read the story again, NOTHING that happens to her is actually her own doing, including something as miniscule as putting on armor) and while the new intro stories are certainly LONGER(filled with genius snippets like "with marvels whose twinkling spectra" , "Cutpurse Square" and "I am your death, I am Pantheon") they offer actually LESS content.

At this point I'd usually ask how whitewashing actual conflict, reducing nuanced characters into hapless dolls for the plot and using obscure words no one has used since the late 19th century in an attempt to make your writing appear better than it is, is a "huge improvement" but since Jaredan recently revealed that going forth the game will have NO connection to its own story anymore beyond the pure referencial my interest in doing so at least for League has waned significantly.

Maybe things will change but given what I've seen, short of a radical change in leadership and work mentality, League's lore will go the same way as WoW's, Final Fantasy's, Mass Effect's and Elder Scroll's and you may bloody well quote me on that.

Beyond Legends2 votes

Pointed out on what exactly? The old lore was a mess with everyone being a goody to shoe. The good vs evil dynamic was jarring to read. Stupid stories about blitzcrank sacking singed or shaco murder some journalist or nidalee relationship with a summobers. If those are what are to be consider good, than you have a really bizzare pallete.

Old League lore made zero sense, there was too many foundational holes not to tear down. So what if League lore is going be more like WoW or FF. Last time I heard they actually have good lore compare to the abomanation that is old League.

Headbiter4 votes

Pointed out on what exactly? The old lore was a mess with everyone being a goody to shoe.

As per usual, your statements contradict the facts. You claim an good vs. evil dynamic in the old lore.

Well, how about Twisted Fate then? He actually saw Graves as a good companion, enjoyed working with him and even though he ultimately - and knowingly - betrayed him for nothing but personal power, he always felt regret about his action. He never regretted the deal but he regretted that his friend needed to pay the price for his own increase in power.

The new T.F. on the other side never betrayed Graves. In fact, he risked his freedom and possibly his life to free Graves, constantly tries to talk his old friend down and in the end is even willing to throw his life away - for a guy who tried to kill him as "payback" for an utterly self-inflicted prison sentence and an imagined betrayal.

Now comparing those two, which T.F. exactly is the goody two shoe? The old one with the deeply engrained character flaw or the new one who throws almost every available ressource at protecting someone who unjustly blames him for all his ills?

And "everyone" is a goody two shoe? Kayle vs. Morgana, one being a blindly loyal soldier to a righteous yet likely fanatic regime, while the other is a violent rebel, fighting for more liberal rights in her world, though she does so with a possibly sadistic streak. Singed, a madman with a slight tendency for genocide? Draven, a man who kills for sport and entertainment? Galio, a sentient construct that failed in his one and only task and now is stripped of his only true purpose in life? Shyvana, a half-breed, shunned and hunted by her kind ever since she was a child, losing both her parents in the process and now being honor-bound to serve under a human, alongside soldiers that she can never truly belong to? Urgot? Motherfucking Urgot? Anyone remembers the story of Kassadin's daughter?

Hell, one random look at the roster and I can name any number of champions who can be called any number of things but certainly not goody two shoes. Even fucking Lux earned her accolades in the Demacian military by flawlessly performing behind-enemy-lines spywork.

So when you tell me that the OLD lore has nothing but binary good/evil-characters, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

And yes, during the times of the IoW there was silly stuff, especially in the very FIRST original lore (when Tryndamere was a dessert- barbarian). And in contrast to that silly implication, I never claimed the old lore could never be outdone by a more "open world"-approach. It's just that Riot fails spectacularly and provably in doing so.

But you know what, at least the silly stuff in the old lore - was SUPPOSED to be silly.

Meanwhile, the new lore introduces us the "crown of stone", a TRADITIONAL punishment in Demacia....that demands the punished soldier to climb Mt. Targon (which, going by the outdated map would be ridiculous given the distance, but fuck knows how far the distance is now), which is, quote, "known to all as a death sentence" .... despite it apparently being common knowledge that, quote again, "the Crown of Stone was traditionally used by the dishonored to simply flee Demacia and make a new life in exile"

And that is not supposed to be a joke, a pop culture reference or some comedy piece, we are actually supposed to consider this a heavy, dramatic moment. Yeah, I think I'll rather take Obi Wan Kenobi's "I have the high ground" seriously.

So what if League lore is going be more like WoW or FF. Last time I heard they actually have good lore compare to the abomanation that is old League.

Yeah, let me ask you, did you hear that from the same source that made you claim that summoners no longer exist in the new lore despite Riot officially backpaddling on that matter months ago? The same source that made you claim that every LoL character pre-rework was a "goody two shoes"? Because then I can assume your "source" is somehow stuck in a time long past and I could understand why you would hear that WoW and ESPECIALLY FF have good lore compared to anything.

Warlord Dienekes5 votes

Well this is an interesting point, since, while I agree with a few of your positions on the old lore, I find the new lore feels just as patchwork if not more-so.

I was around when Pantheon was from Stanpar and Mt Gargantuan. And yeah, the names were bad. I don't think many folk really care too much that the names Rakkor and Targon were used instead. I wrote a rather large piece a day or so ago that old!Pantheon was very much a two-dimensional character. Flat, without motivation, and rather uninteresting.

What I disagree with, is when they introduced Leona. Personally, her base lore was also two-dimensional, but I found the type of person they built in her Judgment was a very fully fleshed out character full of inner conflict and self-doubt, but still inherently good, if Riot wanted to focus on that.

Did the basic idea of a sun-paladin need to be put into Targon? Of course not, and stylistically they were very different. Just as there isn't really any reason to make the modern Taric from Demacia and childhood friends with Garen (well more like teenage to early 20s friends, but still). It was just another attempt to add a connection. I simply find it odd that one example is directly pointed out as problematic when they did the exact same thing in a lore rework you praised earlier.

But, what confuses me as to how we can call one a patchwork lore while the other isn't is because I still see new!Leona (and Panth, and Diana, and Taric) as very much patchwork lores, as soon as the space parasites get pushed into their lores, seemingly just to give them a tie to the new Sol character, because, otherwise, the star-dragon god would have no ties with Runeterra because at it's very core, a star dragon shouldn't have any ties with Runeterra, and so they took the lores of Targon and squeezed them to make Sol fit. In my mind, just adding another band-aid to the problem that they have now squeezed another character that was so far beyond the original Mount Garguantuan, and even far beyond the original conflict of Mt Targon with Diana/Leona.

But even if, we say that as a progressive story the new lore is improved from the original (hell yeah, the original lores were Pantheon the guy from Sparta, and Garen and Kat want to play Romeo and Juliet somehow not realizing that that was Shakespeare's worst play). But, the argument comes from, are the characters better?

Pantheon? Honestly, Atreus was a better character than old!Pantheon. The Aspect Pantheon is just as, if not more, shallow than the original.

Taric? New one is really good. Has a stated goal, has character flaws to get ahead of, but has a nobility to him just the same. Also, the parasitic space empire is presented as just a spirit talking to him for a bit instead of the various levels of possession the rest of the Targon champs got. Good job.

Leona? Went from a defender of life, representative of the actual sun, but someone who was plagued with self doubt and fears of inadequacy to someone who was a defender, then went through an executioner phase, then was possessed by something and forgot her grudge. We do not have any details at all about her inner thoughts. The story overall is unchanged, the character became a bit more of a bitch with less information on her mental state. Personally, I'd say old!Leona was a better character, and oddly, one that could have quite easily been put in the story of the new!Leona since they end with the same conflict. New!Leona just takes an unnecessarily darker road.

Diana? Went from the ostracized daughter of the Solari to an orphan, I guess it was an attempt to show an additional degree of separation? Pretty ham-handed way of doing that, though. Unnecessary change, but not harmful or beneficial. Old!Diana took initiative to actively search out about past histories, new!Diana stumbled upon them. Another unnecessary change, you could maybe make the argument that Old!Diana showed more agency here. But that I'll chalk up to my dislike of the Aspects as a concept, there very nature takes away a character's agency, the ability to learn for themselves, and grow for themselves. The big difference here is that after the slaughter of the Solari, New!Diana feels guilty and has the Aspect to blame for her outburst, while for Old!Diana it was all her (again, a point for character agency) and she leaves the encounter wanting to tear down the Solari and their lies.

Now because I like character conflicts, reading the old!lores left me excited for seeing the confrontation between Leona and Diana, and watch as the good person (Leona) is obviously backing the side of lies (since the Solari were the ones obscuring the truth of the Lunari), while the violent villain (Diana) was the one who was technically speaking in the right. Their conflict could have lead to a story, a story between them, and perhaps could ripple across the Targon setting. And that's all it needed to be to be a good story. Setting up two opposing fleshed out characters, make their ideals oppose each other, and watch as conflict unfurls and how they develop against each other.

Which is why it becomes even more puzzling that this conflict that was built up, it suddenly evaporates once the space empire becomes involved. The conflict between the two characters is gone. Diana wants to create a Solari/Lunari utopia, Leona wants to talk to Diana and share her extra-dimensional secrets. The whole conflict was paved over in the last couple paragraphs of their new lore by, essentially, divine intervention. That's why I don't think the story-telling has really improved. Because that just seems such an obvious problem that shouldn't have been allowed to happen. Unless it was a necessary band-aid to get them tied into the Sol lore, which, I think it was.

Hige2 votes

I'm going to answer here but I think I'll try direct my thoughts to everyone that has made a reply :P

First I want to clarify that while I understand that change is needed in order to bring lore up to an acceptable place, I don't think ALL the changes are right, just as you mentioned Garen and Taric, that connection feels completely tacked on and it's the exact same thing that happened with Pantheon and Leona back then, it is NOT alright and I do not support that choice, that said, if you take a look at Taric's old... self? on his page, you'll realize that at some point they made him Demacian, just so he wouldn't be an Alien anymore and in his current story, his friendship with Garen serves to highlight the fact that he was indeed Demacian at some point, I think it could have been done on a better fashion but well I'm not part of narrative.

As for Leona and Diana's characters... In my post, I said that patchwork lore isn't really good lore and I like to believe that Riot's narratives thinks the same way, I also stated that when you create a new world, some changes for characters are abound. Now I'd like to propose an exercise where we as fans think of a way to differentiate Mount Targon from the rest of the different areas on Runeterra whilst at the same time, making them powerful enough as to stand up against pretty much all the other cities.

I don't know if it's my own thinking alone but, in the past, the Solari, the Rakkor and the Lunari too, felt like a tiny bunch of priests and warriors, in my mind there were like 5 elders with some few younger ones too. Now they can be powerful, beautiful and impressive, but against Noxus' army they don't stand a chance, Noxus feels huge in comparison as does Ionia, Demacia, Shadow isles, Bilgewater (specially with the addition of Illaoi's island and Twisted fate's riverfolk) and so on.

Of course, the Aspects are but one idea that Riot took upon but the fact that these individuals are inmortal and are able to dominate the mind of an ancient being makes them incredibly powerful existences that through magic have the power to represent Mount Targon, these aren't small tribes that worship the elements anymore, these are the LEGENDS from Mount Targon, ATTACK, DEFENSE, SUN AND MOON Each powerful enough to stand on their own against countless men in war.

Now what kind of writing would have been if Riot decided that ALL aspects behaved the same when inside their vessels? it would have been bad, this would have been homogenizing stuff, we need over the top aspects like Pantheon, the polar opposite which is wisdom in Leona and the gray inbetween with Taric who happens to be conscious but acts way aloof and Diana who's almost dead inside but still alive and confused.

In order for the aspects to work in runeterra, characters needed to change, Leona needed to be a bloodthirsty warrior so that wisdom gave her a new perspective, and Pantheon needed to be normal in order to die and become this faceless man who knew nothing but shield and spear, getting lost in order to find true purpose, that's the essential idea behind climbing mount Targon.

Now this last thing which is something that I've seen quite a lot on these boards, and as a future game developer (hopefully haha) I'm genuinely interested, some titles have popped up in this thread and their lores are considered to be bad, would the person making this assessment be able to create a story that was both enthralling and for a lack of better word, eternal? Because let me tell you, I love Final fantasy's lore, ALL of them, World of warcraft is probably one of the most successful franchises in the videogame industry yet you're calling out their lore. If you're so good and understand the flaws behind these lores, please, from the bottom of my heart, as a fellow gamer, please, write, I personally want to read your work and I want to see what a good lore (according to your standards) looks like just so that I can have a comparison point but remember that quality does NOT equals success, so let's see how do YOU make a product that people likes and has a high demand.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

First I want to clarify that while I understand that change is needed in order to bring lore up to an acceptable place, I don't think ALL the changes are right, just as you mentioned Garen and Taric, that connection feels completely tacked on and it's the exact same thing that happened with Pantheon and Leona back then, it is NOT alright and I do not support that choice, that said, if you take a look at Taric's old... self? on his page, you'll realize that at some point they made him Demacian, just so he wouldn't be an Alien anymore and in his current story, his friendship with Garen serves to highlight the fact that he was indeed Demacian at some point, I think it could have been done on a better fashion but well I'm not part of narrative.

Yeah, he was shoved into Demacia before the rework (really they just sort of said he was Demacian at some point there wasn't any lore change. It was just another thing where the band-aids were used to cover the fact that he didn't fit in the world. I just don't think that the current rework has done anything different about that.

Now I'd like to propose an exercise where we as fans think of a way to differentiate Mount Targon from the rest of the different areas on Runeterra whilst at the same time, making them powerful enough as to stand up against pretty much all the other cities.

Well, why? Why would they have to be able to stand up to all the other city-states? Sparta, Athens, Corinth, and Thebes were the strongest city-states for a large portion of Ancient Greek history. But there were over 1500 city-states, Asine, Dion, or Patras couldn't stand up to Athens, but they remained free of them for awhile for other reasons, and a hero could come from them just as fine as they could from Sparta.

But ok, let's humor you. How to make Targon different than the other major city-states of the lore, but still, in theory, able to deal with the others.

The Sindus Mountain Range cuts across the lands of Valorian. Throughout the land numerous smaller cities have sprouted. Several times the forces of Demacia and Noxus have tried to conquer the lands, and even succeeded from time to time. Yet with each attempt the various people have united together and thrown off their conquerors.

Five hundred years ago, Metheus, the Lawgiver, Defender of the Sindus, overthrew the last Demacian governor and molded the various cities to act in unison so that a conquest could never happen again. To the greatest of the city-states he gave a task:

The Messalian, the Ceretians, and the Iolytos were tasked with providing food for the others, and if necessary increase the ranks of any army with soldiers.

The Solari high on the loftiest peaks of Mount Targon, were tasked with honoring philosophy and study of the gods, and offering guidance to the kings and leaders of the other city-states.

The Patrians, and Hercleans were set to guard the borders and trade with the barbaric outsiders that kept invading their lands.

The Rakkor were set as the soldiers of all of Sindus. Their lives dedicated entirely to the study of war.

These most powerful of city-states were to meet each year to plan the future of the Sindus. But over several hundred years the Sindus has changed. Wars between the city-states where not uncommon as each attempted to gain an upper hand on the others. But the Hercleans and the Rakkor have steadily gained power and prominence and now all of Sindus follows either one or the other. With only the Solari standing in the way of a civil war the likes of which the Sindus may never recover from.

Yet, in the High Solace, where the elders of the Solari are bound in eternal study, whispers of a lost city-state have been overheard. Talk of the Lunari echo through the halls, and the elders have started to impose harsh punishments on those who speak of them.

Is it perfect? Of course not, I wrote this in 5 minutes of boredom at my work. But I tried to weave in a few plot points to take the people and the characters that reside in the world, along with plenty to be fleshed out with future champions. And the city-states within Sindus can be embellished a lot as well. Yes, like Athens, the Hercleans are mostly the economic powerhouse of their people. But a city-state can't run just on merchants. They would have to have their own politicians, soldiers, and workers, only their laws and ideals would be focused on trade. The same for any of them.

And none of it involved a mystical star empire that swoops in at the end and nullifies the struggles of the people in the city-states, the ones that the stories should be about. The ones who should be making decisions, revealing hidden truths, and changing their minds themselves not because an outside force makes them.

As to myself writing a story. I'm a historian. I can write you a made-up history textbook if you like, but that's the extent of my writing prowess. Hell, if you give me free reign I could actually make fictional lands with histories, and economies that make sense (not like the current Rakkor tribe). But, honestly, you don't find many of the more fantastical fantasy focus on that stuff, so I'm not going to make that a complaint.

But, just because I know I can't play a piano, that doesn't mean I don't notice when someone misses a note when they play Mussorgsky's Pictures at an Exhibition. And there were some (seeming to me) rather glaring and obvious flaws in Riot's writing. This isn't to say they can't go over again to fix some details when they continue writing lores. Hell, they'll have to. But at the very least keep the core personalities of the characters. At the very least don't shove a space empire that had no set up ever before and suddenly make it the most important part of the new lores.

Hige1 votes

Ok, unlike that other dude, you actually showed at least the ability of writing, you understand the effort that requires to write stories because let's be honest, it took you way longer than 5 minutes, there are some weak points and there are some strong points on your story, I think the biggest flaw is the fact that while the exercise asked you to set Mount targon in a specific fashion all you did was talking about mount Targon itself, this is something that Riot doesn't do

And I want you to read this carefully

We do NOT have Mount targon's full lore and this is a deliberate choice, we have instead 4 points of view each of them with tidbits towards the center story, we have no clue of what are the Solari or where did the lunari went, when, how? we have nothing, and we won't have it ever, because this is an evolving story that will throw new champions in the mix every once in a while, in order to achieve this, the team must create impermeable characters that won't get wet when new characters splashes about. Again, the amount of variables for league's lore is huge, simply stating that it sucks that a character was changed without understanding why is very close minded.

Now, should they preserve character's personalities even if it conflicts with the current tone of the new story? your answer might be yes, because you have a few variables at hand, you CAN, indeed, write a story where Leona is an aspect and keeps her alignment as good neutral but then you don't know what riot has in store for mount Targon, you could be butchering the chance for another character, this we don't know and that's the breaking point for you, you want an encyclopedia of Runeterra and full finished stories and that's perfectly fine, Riot is doing their work, they keep you invested by making you ask yourself: "Why the f*** would Leona do this???" more importantly it's the fact that maybe old Leona was thought out exactly like this but because of agency of time this element of her couldn't be implemented.

A while ago there was a rioter saying that someone who made characters for fun wasn't in fact making champions for league because a champion is extensively tested as well as heavily criticized by a big part of the company, we do not know what kind of feedback goes around inside Riot, all I know is that they have to call the shots and they don't do it lightly (nowadays that is) because of this thread exactly.

As far as criticizing the stories, I think that you can criticize a lot of things, like using filler words or old unfashionable words, the format, the font, the colors, the way it's narrated, the way things are described, but the content itself? this is Riot's creativity in motion, this is months of work! and you can't expect them to change stuff just because a few guys in the boards don't like it! more so in my favor it has been shown that riot does a surmount of surveys for every decision they make and I don't think narrative is the exception here, so when a change of this caliber shows up, I identify what I like, what I don't like, I make a thread about it if I feel like it but I don't feel the entitlement to call out on their work, because I understand that it is NOT the work of one person, it's a team of writers and surveys and gamers and a full company, you got advice? you are welcome! but that's it, expecting things to be changed or rollback months of work is preposterous!

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

Yeah man, it took 5 minutes, maybe 7 at the very most. I did it during my break. All I did was take the Peloponnesian War and dumb it down, a lot. Ridiculously dumbed it down, I figured that would fit LoL lore better, they so far haven't exactly gone for subtlety and complexity in their cultures. The hardest part was just thinking up Greek sounding but not actually Greek names for the various city-states. And the only reason I wrote it like that is because you asked for a version of Targon that was distinguishable from the other city-states in Valoran and powerful enough to deal with the others. And that's what I made.

And here's the problem when a tv show, or a book completely alters a characters personality for a storyline to happen that is considered bad writing. Now, again, not a writer, but that's usually considered out of character or character derailment. But K. M. Weiland who, apparently, is a published author of both fiction and "Outlining Your Novel" has 5 warning signs that your character is acting out of character:

  1. Your character suddenly changes personality.
  2. Your character suddenly changes goals.
  3. Your character suddenly changes his behavior toward another important character.
  4. Your character experiences significant emotional swings.
  5. Your character does something unexpected.

Leona does all of this, and the explanation for it is she becomes possessed by an Aspect. The Aspect is altering her character to fit the new story. And oddly enough, changing her back to what she was in the old!lore (presumably, that's what it seems to be implying). Which is part of the problem I have with the whole Aspect thing, it completely takes the character growth away from the characters we're actually interested in and puts them on the godlike alien figure.

And hell man, I don't expect Riot to change anything they've done because I say something. I wrote that our complaining won't actually accomplish anything to Talos weeks ago. But, on that count none of our criticisms will do anything, I have found exactly 1 time that Riot ever went back on a lore change because of fan outcry: the Jayce/Viktor problem. But, they actually sent me an email telling me about the Targon changes and I should come in and talk about it. So, I am.

And hell yes, you can criticize them for their months of work. Harper Lee spent years writing Go Set a Watchman, it was crap (Also, I feel so bad for Harper Lee, evidently she knew it was crap and didn't want to release it until her damn lawyer got her hands on it when she was near dead). And, truth be told, I think she was a more talented writer than anyone we've seen work in Riot. Which isn't actually meant as a slur against Riot, To Kill a Mockingbird is a phenomenal book, I don't think I've ever seen a game match it.

No, I don't expect them to rollback anything because a handful of fans think it's crap. I don't expect them to do anything. That doesn't change my criticisms though, or make them invalid. As I've said before, if this was a book I'd have read the first chapter then dropped it.

But I want Riot to make quality lore. I want them to not make such silly mistakes again, even if they can't rollback on the ones they've already made. I hope they listen. I'm 99.99999999% positive that they won't, but hey, they invited me here and I will be honest, I won't sing their praises when I read something that's, at best, mediocre fiction.

Hige1 votes

Well I think we have come to terms with our postures and I can respect that, only thing I can add is that I didn't mean that you can't criticize someone's work because it took them months to come up with, critique on itself is made to improve future pieces of work but probably not to change the existing ones, that's what I meant.

It's been awesome to have this discussion with you pal!

Headbiter1 votes

Is there some way to establish a direct contact to you? I might have need for a historian with the mindset and abilities you demonstrated on these boards so far.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

{quoted}

Is there some way to establish a direct contact to you? I might have need for a historian with the mindset and abilities you demonstrated on these boards so far.

I suppose, you can email me: [email protected]

Headbiter3 votes

[deleted]

Hige1 votes

First I don't appreacite your tone, but I'll leave it aside, I have NO intention of telling you to shut up because you can't do it better, as a matter of fact asking someone to do a better story is all we can do, you and several people in this thread ask this of Riot every time you post, my intention with my statement was to make you understand that every single game has the same problem where a bunch of people complain for the sake of complaining without being able to understand bigger underlying issues.

Now, again, if you're this good, get hired, write, and get it out to the world, don't sit on a forum and complain about how someone else does it, do you want a game that excels in lore and in lore only? you're welcome to try and do it, the world is your oyster, maybe league of legends is simply not the game for you, but from the way you talk about every game, none will be able to abide by your standards.

It is far too easy to sit down and gobble up on self assurance, personally I wish you good luck in the real world and hopefully the wall won't hit you too hard.

Headbiter3 votes

Yeah well, you don't appreciate my tone, I don't appreciate being talked to in vapid marketing setpieces. It's the old style vs substance-issue again.

asking someone to do a better story is all we can do

No, that's all that hapless people can do. If you have the necessary knowledge and experience, you can detail your criticism, bring examples of it, both historically and related directly to the product in question and ideally make suggestions on how to improve. And guess what, that's exactly what I've been doing, even just with my summary of why FF's plot blows.

Now, again, if you're this good, get hired, write, and get it out to the world,

Screw you, I'll do what I want. In all seriousness though, this is another one of those vapid phrases I was talking about. Why? Well let's play this scenario out and see, shall we? Imagine that tomorrow I stop writing for fun and actually set out to write a bestseller and because I'm so amazingly awesome my book gets immediately accepted, published and sells like sugar-coated crack. I become one of the biggest names in fictional writing and even help G.R.R. Marting to finish ASoIaF before he keels over. After that, I deepen my programming skills, set up a PC-lab in my garage and program not only a game with a great story, but one that seemlessly interconnects gameplay and story, making me one of the biggest men in the industry for generations to come. Alright? Sounds great? Sounds great. And is undoubtably amazing for my ego and, presumably, for my finances.

Here's the problem though: How - in the endless realms of fuck - does that help me or ANYONE who enjoyed LoL so far and now see it racing head first into a brick wall? Because no matter how stupid rich and famous I might become, the game I enjoy and wish to see doing and improving, will still be driven into the ground.

So thanks for the "sage advise", buddy, but you kinda missed the point.

And might I add that if me criticising THREE franchises constitutes "every game" to you, you might want to start playing more games than what you can pick up from your local bargain bin.

It is far too easy to sit down and gobble up on self assurance, personally I wish you good luck in the real world and hopefully the wall won't hit you too hard.

You too, my friend. And may you develop an original thought on your path.

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Oh, speaking of writing.... could you see my tales of targon thing headbiter? I think you may be a perfect editor for it. I would like someone who's good at critiquing, and someone who would probably not mince words about it.

Headbiter1 votes

Sure I can, just hit me up on twitter if you have that. If not...then we'll have to figure out another way to contact each other.

Usual warning/disclaimer though: You're right I don't mince words, not even when I criticise my wife's books, so...consider that.

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Well, I can just link them here and Here

Also, I need some harsh critisim, it's the only way to improve.

Headbiter1 votes

Just FYI, will probably take until the weekend before I can respond, busy week.

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Take your time.

Ghostagram4 votes

{quoted}

Now I'd like to propose an exercise where we as fans think of a way to differentiate Mount Targon from the rest of the different areas on Runeterra whilst at the same time, making them powerful enough as to stand up against pretty much all the other cities.

Easy: there's a magical UN that'll sanction invasions that don't pass due process [slayer-jinx-wink]

Sorry, cheap shot aside I think Targon lends itself very easily to a "graveyard of empires"/"Switzerland in WW2" archetype. Rough terrain + bellicose people/well-trained militias (+ possibility of little strategic value) = too much trouble to conquer for any empire. In fact, last time Noxus tried to invade, their entire army got stopped on a narrow mountain pass by 300 Rakkor warriors. Thus Targon holds its own without needing to invent the warp drive. lel.

Ghostagram6 votes

{quoted}

currently lore is a teenager

So, pretentious and angsty? :P

Among the nitty-gritty and general stuff others point out, I think this is one of the things that rubs me wrong the most. If the new lore was a fan fiction, it'd be criticized as a bad fan fiction.

  • Characters don't stay true to their established selves
  • Tone shift to grimdark for easy drama and extra #edgy

Just like a budding author would write it.

Of course it's not fan fiction, it's now the official lore. But that doesn't change the quality!

IMO the best way to flesh out a MOBA's world would've been to take the WH40K route and set up a frozen conflict with heaps of backstory and intrigue, and glacial story progression. That leaves plenty of material to work with to create a living, breathing world, as you can well see with Warhammer. Looking back at the removal of the IoW after reading the new lore, I think it was a grim indicator of the lore team's lack of creativity, and unfortunately I think it shows.

Trylobyte5 votes

While I'm indifferent to the current lore changes and will often take devil's advocate in those cases, I find myself increasingly worried for characters whose lore I do care about to get their turn under the Lore Team's knife, so to speak. The removal of the League was something I was okay with, I could see why it was done - It prevented real conflict and was too much of a deus ex machina. The Freljord conflict isn't going anywhere, but if you look at the goals and personalities of the three leaders it's obvious why. Shadow and Fortune... it was good, but it stepped down the enmity between Graves and Twisted Fate, and made Miss Fortune a lot smarter than she used to be. Okay, some changes there... Then we got the whole Targonian 'space empire' thing out of nowhere and, as of right now, it doesn't really add anything to the story beyond a way to bind Aurelion Sol to the place (and there were a lot of other ways to do that). It honestly seems more goofy and out of place than anything, and isn't even expanded upon beyond the idea of the Aspects. Pantheon was a flat character before, but he's almost flatter now, and intentionally so. And Leona and Diana lost a lot of the subtext, nuance, and realism behind their conflict, and that's what really has me worried. I do care about the lore of Kayle and Morgana, whose lore has yet to be updated and whose stories are entirely defined by the sort of thing that got scrubbed from the Leona/Diana conflict. The idea that there can be two sides, irreconcilable, but neither of them explicitly wrong. The idea that a good cause can be represented by an evil person. The idea that characters can change and evolve over a long period of time without necessarily being aware of it themselves. And seeing what's happening with the rereleases of current champions, I'm worried all that is going to go away in favor of a better-written, but more generic, conflict. And in looking at that, I can understand your concerns as well.

While I'm not going to stop playing the game because of the lore changes, since ultimately the game and the lore are different entities, I can see your point and I respect it. I wish you the best on your own narrative work.

Kadavik3 votes

Bye :(

LoquaciousKumqat3 votes

Aside from Panth, Diana and Leona didn't change much if at all, and Taric is better. Also, the Targon lore WAS NOT AN EVENT. It was never meant to push the current story forward, only provide origin stories.

Did Poppy even change at all lore-wise?

Burning Tides was AMAZING in every regard.

Shen and Zed and Jhin's backstory was actually pretty damn interesting.

Like it or not a lot of the old lore wasn't very well done. If the character is good, they will try and keep the parts of them we recognize. If not, they sometimes have to reinvent them. This is understandable.

Point is, more often than not Riot has been hitting it out of the park with the new lore more often than not.

Can't wait to see what they do with the Void.

rand0mredneck3 votes

Hope the door hits you on the way out.

Talos of Altmora3 votes

sorry, it's metaphysical [zombie-nunu-bummed]

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

Well, cheers mate. Hope you find a different better game to occupy your time and thoughts.

BillyisaBAMF1 votes

I loved the post it makes sense. However don't you think you are letting the lore get into the game play a little too much. The champions attitude and backstory does not matter when you play the game. When you read the lore's compared to the old lore I see what you mean how they have changed so much. Even reworking the champions. They don't do this because they think it would be a better story they do it to match their reworks. To bring champions that aren't viable in the game back up to par with the rest. Is there a reason for them to change the lore when they do that? Not really, but the lore team has a job to do, and if they aren't revising some old champions lore, or working on a new champions lore (which might require tweaking other lore to make the new champion fit into the game) they would just be sitting at a computer getting paid for nothing. The main point of what I'm trying to say is It's their job, and they know some people won't approve. Not every decision is easy. Not every decision is the best one to make. However jumping off the lore talk the game play really has nothing to do with the lore. A ton of players probably have never even glanced at it. The game play and the lore are two completely separate things. Minus all the little lore related character dialogue in game. The champions play the way Riot wants them to play even after a rework of abilities you just get used to it. I really don't see a point in quitting the game if you enjoy the game just because the story and origins of the characters are changing. The sad fact is they are going to keep making changes, and it sucks I know. However the game is good, somewhat balanced (lol), and fun most of the time. So if you enjoy the game keep playing. You just might have to find some new story to get invested in.

Talos of Altmora5 votes

I enjoyed the lore because without it, Lol was just like any other moba. It was what had me interested in the game at all. without it, it just feels like a streamlined Dota 2 to me.

Villiers1 votes

Okay. Rammus

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Kayle

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