Elise and Cassiopeia Are To Similar

Please End Mee·10/12/2018, 11:01:56 PM·14 votes·7,553 views

From a thematic stand point, Cassiopeia and Elise fill in the same arch type; the beautiful woman who's transformed into a vengeful, ruthless monster. And this is just a brief summary.

They're both from noble houses, both are Noxians, and both used cunning and beauty to manipulate those around them.

While this isn't one of the worse character arch types out there, and is in fact one of my favorites, they are in need of some variation to keep them from being the same person. My idea is simple, have one take on the role of being a more sympathetic monster. I'd choose Elise for this option, and let me explain why.

Elise, to those who have read her lore, before she became the monster she is now, wasn't necessarily an awful or horrible person. Born to one of the lower ranking aristocratic families of Noxus, she usd her beauty to raise her houses status, and manipulated those around to further that goal. While manipulating people may seem like a more negative attribute, we have to remember Elise is from Noxus, a culture that values strength in any form. She wasn't doing anything wrong, simply following the customs of her culture, and in fact was more selfless since she did it to raise not just her, but family's statues as well. Sure, she might have been a bit vain, but it was her beauty that allowed her to do all this. For those who have read her lore, than you also know that she is a viction in her own right.

The man she married, feeling insecure of his own socal stature, and jealous of that of his wife's, poisoned her, nearly killed her, and robbed her of the thing she valued most, her beauty. This was devastating for her. It might seem superficial, but her beauty was her greatest asset and weapon. It would be the same if an NFL player woke up and suddenly found himself crippled, or if an Artist had their creativity stolen from then. In her bio, she ends up succumbing to serious depression after this, with it stating that she locked herself in the dark, refused to leave her home, and became a recluse. This loss was so much for her to bear that she essentially lost all will to live.

Once she goes through the whole deal with the spier-god and becomes beautiful again, her character kind of stops growing from this point, becoming your general evil female character. This is where I would like to pick up on. In her bio, it states that she has sacrificed hundreds, possibly even thousands to the spider to maintain her beauty, and we can also assume that this is the only thing still keeping her alive at this point, with her having lived well past that of a normal human life span. What question her charcter can try to answer is "when does the killing end?" Again, she has killed so many in her goal to maintain her beauty, becoming a monster. Surely, there must be some part of her former humanity that's still in her, that see's the blood on her hands, and asks if it's still worth it. She knows that her beauty will only remain so long as she kills, so when does the killing simply become to much to maintain something that is destined to fade away and leave her. In a way, she's almost addicted to the killing, as we can surmise, it's the one thing that's still keeping her beauty, and her alive. In the end, she suffers from one of the most human of fears, the fear of death.

Being the monster she has become, it would be safe to assume that she might feel isolated from the rest of humanity, and her bio does state that even with her beauty granted, she still contains some of her reclusive habits. Beautiful, but now a monster, and a murderer, she might feel as though nobody could get close to her or love her, because she's done so many terrible things. She wants beauty to stay alive, but she needs to kill to be alive. It's and endless cycle that sees no end, until she decides to end it. So again, she must question herself "when does the killing end?"

I can just image her, staring in the mirror, tears in her eyes, as she remembers the human she once was, but now only see's the reflection of the mostrosity that she has become. Seeing the hundreds she has killed to maintain this beauty, and how that might weigh upon her soul. Let's not forget that her transformation also granted her with spider like appendages on her back, which could stand as a constant reminder that she's not fully human anymore. She mourns not only the loss of her true beauty, but of her humanity. Beautiful but alone, her life has becme nothing but killing, and she can't let anybody close, for they would soon realize how horrible she is. Everything she has done has only seperated her from the rest of the world. Sure, she can question "when does the killing end" but she can also question "what's the point of being beautiful if there's nobody there to appreciate it?"

Keep her ruthless, I don't want her to become a sobbing mess, but have some of humanity peak out every now and then, as a reminder that she was, and still is to some degree, a human. A human, with human fears and emotions, and guilt.

41 Comments

Ebonmaw Dragon10/12/2018, 11:25:17 PM11 votes

I dont think that they are similar.

To be fair i didnt read the whole post, but the main thing about Elise is that she is some kind of "cultist" of an "evil god"... In that way, she is more similar to Karthus or Malzahar, not Cassiopeia.

The Spider Queen does the things that she does because she wants to, it was her choice to become what she is... and her new form is some kind of "blessing" for her, the form that Cassiopeia has is a curse: Cassiopeia was punished due her actions and she does not like what she ist.

Zyranium10/12/2018, 11:55:36 PM8 votes

You're right, I always considered their archetype to be really similar, as they are ones of my favorite champions, (Since I only play Femme Fatales) I can't keep thinking about how they are both too much the same all the time, okay one is a spider and the other a snake woman, but they rather feel really uninspired.

I think Cassiopeia really needs an update, a visual update to be clear, she is the typical lamia we find in every MOBA game. When I knew about Naganeka from Twilight of the Gods story, it made me think how Cassiopeia felt... Cheap, I mean I love her character, but Riot really has to do something to make her feel different and really unique.

Elise Cassiopeia Zyra they need to do something for the monster girl trio, and funny tho they ALL have the same voice actress aka Karen Strassman, I put Zyra in the same boat as the others, since she embodies the archetype of Poison Ivy and besides the fact her powers and theme are around plants and vines, she is clearly lacking everything to make her stand out in the LoL universe, a vengeful seductress plant woman in a jungle somewhere...

While Elise's story is a bit more pushed and "complete", Cassiopeia's feels utterly outdated, and Zyra's is a complete void...

HalfTangible10/13/2018, 1:12:02 PM5 votes

Cass' color story is about her hunting down a child murderer (and potentially a rapist? it's a little unclear) and turning him to stone like Medusa and the Punisher had a baby. Elise's is about her revelling in a new sacrifice she's making to Vilemaw, and the sacrifice's common sense being overridden by how beautiful she is.

You look between these two, and you decide ELISE is the more sympathetic?

Neither Cass nor Elise is in need of a major lore change right now. I'd like to see more from Cass (does Kat even know what's happened to Cass, for instance?) and Elise is the kind of villain you want to see get what's coming to them (unlikely at this stage, but w/e), but not an outright change. There's champions in this game whose very existence depended on the old lore to make any kind of sense and even more who are just a placeholder bio (Teemo immediately comes to mind, as does Soraka)

Pale Mask10/13/2018, 9:52:39 AM4 votes

I hear "Elise", and I am summoned.

I never got a sympathetic impression from Elise. What I get is a selfish psychopath obsessed with their own power. It's Elise's belief specifically that beauty is power, so she's not only interested in the physical appeal of her body, but rather the implication that she's a master of other creatures. Her big theme as "spider queen" is that she's a control freak; she rules over two houses, she manipulates her husband, she brainwashes thousands of cultists, and she's using Vilemaw (though that's a pact between equals) to prolong her immortality. This is reflected in her gameplay (spiderlings) and her quotes (1, 2, etc.).

Furthermore, Elise doesn't regret losing her humanity a single bit. She says that she's become more beautiful after her transformation. She ruthlessly mocks Markus while killing him, stating that she's doing so because she wants to live (and his own life doesn't matter to her). She has sustained herself through this method for hundreds of years; at some point, a remorseful person would've decided to stop. Her "depression" after losing her beauty didn't seem to me like crippling sadness, but rather madness brought forward by her loss of power. She turned away numerous petitioners because, to her, no one else matters but herself. She feigns religiousness and promises divinity, love, power, etc. to the weak-willed and ambitious only so she could steal their lives away.

Her obsession with beauty can't even be treated like Vladimir's, Evelynn's, Jhin's, Ahri's etc. compulsion for killing, because unlike them (and others like them), who are forced essentially from birth to kill, Elise does it because she wants to. She's doesn't have mental problems that leave her with no alternative (and no one is forcing her to live forever); it's all her. She's one of the game's best examples of pure villainy (neutral evil i.e. evil with no variation or purpose other than selfishness), and one of the least-deserving people of sympathy on Runeterra.

Cassiopeia is in a much better place: she's young (there's still time to redeem her), she regrets her transformation (despite the power that it offers her), and she can choose not to repeat the same mistakes as Elise (accepting the Rose's invitation to join them, for starters). She also has a sister and adoptive brother. They're not the most heroic characters, sure, but they're family.

If you want to compare them to mythological figures, compare Cassiopeia to, well, Cassiopeia (beautiful woman punished for her vanity), and Elise to Lamia (beautiful woman turned into a vampiric monster).

MagmusOverlord10/13/2018, 12:29:54 PM4 votes

Too much sympathetic people in lore now. She needs to have more of the cultist personality, like the other guy said. Kinda like illaoi but more cult like. dangerous...is what I am saying? She seems like the person that would do rituals and sacrifice people to the spider god she worshps. Idk but i honestly disagree with giving her the sympathetic.

Also her lore is pretty solid imo. Who needs a lore update is cassiopeia not the other way around.

Ifneth10/13/2018, 4:25:04 PM4 votes

And if you loosen the description, you find more champs like this.

Zyra Ahri Evelynn

It’s disturbing that this trope shows up so often and disappointing that each of them could have been a unique character.

Whyte Lyon10/13/2018, 12:14:48 AM3 votes

Imo, especially now after talk of Narrative debating whether to edit some lore for champs who were already updated a few years ago. I'd say Elise will be one who will probably receive and benefit from small tweaks to her story in some future LU.

Camille Ferrøs10/12/2018, 11:36:38 PM2 votes

They have some similar things not they are not similar characters

Zapzya10/13/2018, 12:41:53 AM2 votes

There are two differences. One, Elise has a patron of sorts in the form of the spider god, while Casseopeia relies on her own strength (even though it was granted through a curse). One is self sufficient, the other is not, that can have some major ramifications. Elise will always choose loyalty to her god while Casseopeia is free to do as she wants.

The second is their morality. I don't know why you would choose Elise to be the more sympathetic of the two, she was never that nice to begin with. She manipulated people with her looks as a human, caring so little for the other person that she would kill them, even the man she married. To be fair, he did poison her, but this course of action implies she wasn't the most pleasant wife. Now she herds people to the Shadow Isles to be eaten, once again seducing them. I don't even think she regrets this, she could just let herself die if she did, and her bio implies if anything she is happy with how things turned out:

"Elise rose, breathless with the agony of her transformation, to find the Spider God looming above her. Shared power flowed between them, and both immediately sensed how they might benefit from this unexpected symbiosis."

Elise obtained this power by accident, yet she always intended to become beautiful by whatever means necessary, even bringing sacrifices with her on the initial journey. Compare this with Cassiopeia, who never intended to become anything like a snake lady, and if anything was actually set back by it. Her previous skill set of seduction is not really possible with that tail, most people would run. Her venom would probably also be a bit of a hindrance here. Some one who has never dealt with rejection before now needs to find a new place in the world.

Perhaps Cass has also had a moral breakthrough, or was just never that awful to begin with (unlikely since she back stabbed Sivir), as in her short story she hunts a man who was feeding children to drake hounds. Elise wouldn't even care about that. She might even use children for sacrifices if they could provide enough nourishment to her god. I feel like that right there is a significant enough difference between them.

DerMangoJoghurt10/13/2018, 8:44:28 AM1 votes

I'd argue Cassiopeia shares more similarities with Warwick than with Elise . Though their overall life stories are similar, they're quite different in how they deal with their new fate.

Cassiopeia despises her curse. She just wants to be a normal member of society. However, as her current state fills her with an overwhelming desire to hunt, she funnels that urge into vigilante justice. Over time she learns to appreciate her new form.

To me that sounds a lot like Warwick's current predicament.

The difference between Warwick, Cassiopeia, and Elise for me is the change the curse introduced. Warwick and Cassiopeia were living lives they were content with. The curse completely ruined that life and forces them to find a new place in society and to come to terms with their curse. In Elise's case the real curse was the poison, the Spider God is the antidote. Her current form is what she desired all along, so much that she was risking death to restore it. Even now she goes through a lot of trouble to maintain it.

Warwick and Cassiopeia need to accept what they've become; they have already. Elise is what she is now because she couldn't accept what she's become.

tamaya10/13/2018, 5:08:09 PM1 votes

Certainly their circumstances are very similar. But they are completely different. While Elise is cling to beauty, Cassiopeia has the strength to find another "power" of herself even if she loses its beauty.

HeyHeresTre10/15/2018, 12:43:52 AM1 votes

I actually saw a thread incredibly similar pointing out the same thing recently, Ill link it here https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/fFAtve2Q-i-think-theres-a-problem-with-nidalee-and-elise . guess youre not alone?

SSmotzer10/12/2018, 11:45:55 PM1 votes

Well they are both up for full on relaunches.

Like, they could make Cassiopeia more involved with the Darkin poison that corrupted her, so she is more struggling to stay in control, while Elise is addicted to her corruption.

And it's not a problem that they share an archetype, plenty of champions share archetypes. Poppy, Galio, and Garen are all the dim witted but kind brute archetype, and they are all also from Demacia.

Tormentula10/14/2018, 2:48:10 AM1 votes

Elise is pretty selfish tbh.

We don't really know what Elise was like before her husband's betrayal, all we know is she was a pretty high class person who lived in noxus. We do know her family valued vanity a lot however, which isn't a trait often associated with good.

The thing is she gave up her mortality inorder to restore her beauty and the ability to live on. She was that selfish that she kills hundreds inorder to bring artifacts to the black rose just so she could be who she is. Her final quote in one of her stories when a victum ask why she's doing this is; "you must die, so I can live" as spiders crawl throughout his body, it doesn't phase her. Its her choice, and she continues to live with it because she's still a high figure in noxus, but now she's immortal, potentially whatever position she is in she's in forever. If that's not the case, she can dwell and rule in one the most cursed places no mortal could really be in long, the shadow isles, which is pretty good for her. She's a bridge between noxus and the isles, its almost like her duty if it isn't for personal gain now.

While its hard to say if she has any real power of noxus (definitely now that she connects with vilemaw), she's high class still, and can rule the isles/explore the isles likely in ways nobody ever could. She has a lot of good reasons for what she does from a government's point of view and possibly her own. I'm kinda sad there's no interaction between her and Swain because Swain would probably make her his best friend if he knew about what she is and where she goes. Imagine swain using her to try and control the isles and expand noxus to there.

That or simply she's just manipulated into this evil person from the evil of the mist/venom and the spider form overtakes her similar to WW's animal traits turning a simple man into a literal uncontrollable animal.

Point is she never really struck me as an emotional character, much like camille who's kinda emotionless. I think of elise like I think of widowmaker from overwatch, either so far past human emotion that there's nothing left, after a tragic event, or she was just the type of person to never have it (idk symmetra's lore but something like that maybe?). Elise I don't look at as emotional, I look at her as somebody envisioning a royal fantasy and wanting nothing more, a queen of hearts sorta ordeal.


If riot wanted to give her some kind of humanity, I mean sure I wouldn't oppose it.

I just really really hope if Elise ever gets updated that don't pull another swain and basically make a lore revolving around "yea, spider form is just a demon named vilemaw inhabiting her now"