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Regarding Aatrox's quotes and the Darkin in general

Varus Enthusiast·8/4/2018, 6:48:57 PM·18 votes·12,856 views

First of all, I have noticed that Aatrox keep talking about being betrayed and what not, but in his lore there's no indication of that actually happening

"I am but an unholy copy of life... A mockery of its freedom... And born in the cruel betrayal of the noble ideals I would've served." "Hail Pantheon! How noble and proud he carries himself! Come betrayer! Come fiend!"

I can somewhat understand the quote in regards to Pantheon being a ''betrayer'' in his eyes, as they both probably fought side by side against the void and Pantheon was partially responsible for imprisoning him. But I don't understand the first one about ''noble ideals''.

Second Aatrox talks about things that seem more in line with the Aspects than the Ascended

"The heavens, the endless skies folding into each other. Where are they now?" "I touched the stars, and saw the glorious light of a thousand suns! Now, blinded by this elegence, how could my purpose be anything... but dark..."

Are these figurative? As in he is talking about his ascension (where he saw ''the glorious light of a thousand suns'') of is it literal in which he actually visited the gold and silver city beyond Mount Targon?

Thirdly the way he talks about Nautilus

"Your noble purpose amuses me, Nautilus! Fight me, see true death!"

Is this because of that placeholder lore in which Nautilus was a man who's spirit was put inside a golem (before community feedback)? https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/BdPgp4xW?show=flat&comment=000100000000000200020000 (Rioter Comment number 9) Or is he mocking Nautilus for his current ''purpose'' of sinking ships who don't pay the thite?

Fourthly, he talks about himself being a ''World Ender'' and also refers to Varus as a ''World Ender'' too

"You would end worlds? As a bow?!"

In fact as seen here he speaks to him as if they had destroyed worlds in the past, obviously not the case with the current Darkin lore.

This leads me to my question, were Aatrox's quotes recorded before Riot was sure that they wanted the Darkin to be former Ascended and not something else?

For example, we know most of the encounter lines for Aatrox are based on opponents he is likely to face (on Top Lane), so it's understandable that he doesn't have quotes for Azir or Xerath. But why does he have lines against Anivia, Kai'Sa, Morgana or Taric instead? Building upon that, his more humorous lines also make it sound like he was never a human to begin with.

"So uh, I'm Aatrox. I'm a transcendental being trapped inside cutlery... What's your deal?" in here he talks about being a creature from the cosmos "What is property? Why did this dead hamster want me off of it?" In here he says he doesn't understand the concept of property

Lastly, I wanted to talk about the Darkin. As we know Varus' previous lore implied that the Darkin were creatures from another planet According to Riot, Kayn and Rhaast's lore was written with knowledge of the Darkin already being former Ascended and not aliens. However I have some quips with that.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/l9eQRxnr?comment=00050000 https://i.gyazo.com/9262875580386464ab5651f34e0cf595.png https://i.gyazo.com/10d5f302d3e2f43cf31feffa17c0551a.png

1: As seen here, Kayn released much earlier than the Varus lore update. Since the ''As we fall'' video doesn't have any actual references to the Darkin themselves (as there's no dialogue) there's was no need to have a special lore in which Varus and the other Darkin were aliens, both the comics and the short story could have been easily edited to have no reference to that as well, namely these ones: Comic: https://i.gyazo.com/88745a3d037795ed5838b38f53586bd4.png https://i.gyazo.com/0b16f7d7eec15c99c92711a6ee2a205e.png https://i.gyazo.com/cb47a996671f802e93596d93caedb62b.png https://i.gyazo.com/23eddae70ad52bd4043ecf4db83f77a6.png Short story: ''Varus followed a river running through the desert. Its water was gritty, but drinkable. The new body he had wrought to bear his bow was beautiful, fast and strong, but it came with the weaknesses of flesh. It hungered. It thirsted.''

2: Kayn as a quote in which he asks ''What does Rhaast mean anyways?'' to which Rhaast responds ''Obey''. This almost makes it sound like the Darkin naming convention is that of ideas and not actual names.

3: Dinopawz (Graham Mcneill) who I assume is an informed member of the narrative team, spoke about the Darkin as if they were not from Runeterra https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/Jumtus1c-varus-being-changed-to-gay-feels-wrong-for-his-character https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/EMzaFZVV-darkin-questions Now if they were already certain that the Darkin were not going to be being from another planet why does he talk about so surely as if they were?

Anyways thanks for reading and I'm curious to see your thoughts on this!

28 Comments

Fasmodey8/4/2018, 7:50:41 PM11 votes

I believe nothing in Graham's answers contradict with the current lore. Neither do they imply they were from another world necessarily.

He even said not all of them were humanoid, which is directly hint to the Ascended. Most of the Ascended are humanoid, but some of them beast like.

And Aatrox is kinda insane, so I wouldn't trust his every quotes.

Camille Ferrøs8/4/2018, 7:17:44 PM11 votes

A big retcon mess..Thats all I can say..

NotaRobot10068/5/2018, 1:18:28 AM7 votes

I'm guessing the "noble ideals" business is related to Aatrox's original job of fighting the Void. He helped protect all existence from mind-warping horrors whose only drive is hunger. Can't get much nobler than that.

Limrick8/5/2018, 4:06:07 AM4 votes

Varus was made a Darkin before Riot decided what the Darkin actually are, so Nothing about the Darkin from the Varus retcon is canon anymore.

Second, I don't see how any of Aatrox's quotes are confusing at all. A "cruel betrayal of the noble ideals" is not him literally betraying or being betrayed by SOMEONE, but a betrayal of what the Ascended were supposed to stand for. They were created to fight for and protect Shurima, but they ended up as bad as the very things they had once protected Shurima against. The magic that created the Ascended was given by Targon, so it isn't at all surprising that he would sometimes reference the heavens as if he were an Aspect. The line about Nautilus seems to me that Aatrox sees Nautilus killing sailors as noble, which is perfectly in line with everything else Aatrox says. The "World Ender" thing is probably just Aatrox hyping up the Darkin to be a bigger deal than they really are. They did call themselves gods before, so that level of arrogance seems pretty much par for the course for them.

Third, none of those four characters you mentioned are weird for Aatrox to be talking to. Anivia is a demigod, Aatrox wants to kill all the gods. Kai'sa has seen some of the horrors of the Void and survived it, which Aatrox can relate to. Morgana is getting a rework soon, so she will probably end up being tied in with the Darkin somehow. And Taric is an Aspect, the people that trapped Aatrox inside a sword.

Fourth, do you not know what transcendental means? Aatrox definitely fits the bill without being an alien. Also the line with Kled is either because personal property is a strange idea to someone from an ancient empire, or it's just a joke line.

Fifth, Rhaast probably doesn't mean obey. He's just trying to spook Kayn.

I really can't see where any of this confusion comes from, it seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

Wrathof3008/4/2018, 8:01:21 PM4 votes

I completely agree that Aatrox's apparent betrayal at the hands of Pantheon are extremely vague and feels as though calling it 'betrayal' is an incorrect way to describe this. The blame is on Pantheon, currently in his own bio his character is not expounded upon so I think this lack of character makes him difficult to put into other lore. On a positive note, they could write a story exploring this 'betrayal' in full detail.

"The heavens, the endless skies folding into each other. Where are they now?" "I touched the stars, and saw the glorious light of a thousand suns! Now, blinded by this elegence, how could my purpose be anything... but dark..."

The first qoute could either be literally or metaphorically, however the second could be in reference to his position among the Ascended Hosts/ Sunborn. From the story Twilight of the Gods, we can approximate that there were 1000 Ascended warriors minimum throughout Shurima's history when Ta'anari says “Such a gathering of the Sunborn has not happened since the drawing of the thousand before the walls of Parnesa.”.

Fourthly, he talks about himself being a ''World Ender'' and also refers to Varus as a ''World Ender'' too "You would end worlds? As a bow?!" In fact as seen here he speaks to him as if they had destroyed worlds in the past, obviously not the case with the current Darkin lore.

I personally saw this as him chastising Varus the same way he did Rhaast : "A scythe? A scythe?! Are you planning on murdering fields of wheat?!" If not for the fact he were a Darkin, a bow by itself wouldn't be very deadly.

As for why he wouldn't have quotes for Xerath and Azir, Shuriman's fall was just an excuse to give way to the inevitable. Thousands of years later, Shurima no longer concerns them, Aatrox has become more obsessed with his personal fall from grace opposed to the collective fall of the empire. However it is entirely possible the next Darkin does have a boat load of quotes toward their beloved emperor and blames their descent into madness on Xerath's selfish hubris. As for the other quotes, some might be lore related and others 'what if he met' quotes.

Building upon that his more humorous lines also make it sound like he was never a human to begin with.

This is what sells him as human to me actually. Had Aatrox been put into the game as an Ascended, this is how his personality would have been.A flicker of what remains of the Ascended warrior Aatrox; making jokes, chastising both friend and foe, and welcoming a challenge from all warriors of any kind. Even lightning squirrels!

ModAcademy Kayn8/4/2018, 8:39:12 PM2 votes

I can help explain some of these.

For the first one, we'd need to make the assumption that the Ascended were well aware of the Aspects of Targon. This is an assumption, but when you're quite literally imbuing folk with the power of ideals, I imagine there's some closer connection, but like said, an assumption. The Leona point below helps prove some connection between then two.

With Pantheon, the betrayal aspect serves from the idea that "You gave us these powers, and yet, you choose now to destroy us? These Nobel ideas from which we were Ascended to fulfill, yet we're no longer worthy?" They were given power from Targon, whether they know that or not we don't really know, so to be given power to Ascend, and then to be destroyed for having said power, can easily be seen as betrayal.

I think the second part is apt. He was a God, amongst men at least, and the Ascension ritual may be more than we think. Remember how Leona went up the mountain, and when she reached the top.

https://i.gyazo.com/b451407e019ff04959130e47174eb5ae.png

I dunno about the Nautilus bit. Riot has shown time and time again that they don't release two things that aren't up to date with their 'grand vision' let's call it, 'it' being the new canon lore that we should hold highest in reliability. I don't know if I'd personally call it 'Noble', sinking ships that refuse to pay a Fee, but in the context that ships and captains that don't are 'greedy' it's possible that maybe it is. That only greedy men don't pay the tithe, and so their lives are judged.

For the voice lines connections: Anivia is a Demi-god. Aatrox was technically a God-Warrior (God-like in nature), and in the war between the Sun-born, a God Killer would be an apt name for him if he was by far the best at killing other Sun-born. Pride may let him think himself capable of ending a Demi-god. Kai'sa is void related, Aatrox fought the Void. Morgana may have more relevance to the Targons/Darkin, and Taric is an aspect. Connections all over da place.

For the 'Transcendental' part, if we look at the meaning of the word,

https://i.gyazo.com/24f9b42b8e87ca690b3c76f45a0c515d.png

Than it's very easy to see how someone who 'Ascends', has gone beyond the world of humans, and has become, a God. I keep saying God, even though "Sunborn" is more an apt term, but I use it because that's what they were to normal humans. And something the Dude-who-teamed-up-with-Old-Aspect-of-Twilight called themselves.

For the Varus comic examples, I can shine light on those in order as they come.

  • "Born in the Wrath of a World's Annihilation" can reference that of the Void's invasion from Icathia, something that he was very involved with, and possibly, the most affected by. Or perhaps, even referencing that of the War between Darkin, Sunborn, and Mortals, one that led that one dude who teamed up unknowningly with the old Aspect of Twilight, to try and wipe his own people out as to put an end to a war that he thought could ravage the world.

  • "I claim the blood price of your species" These get easier going down the list, but it's very obvious that the Sunborn/Darkin, saw humans very differently than they did themselves. They were gods, after all. It's very easy to see how they could see them as a different species. As of note, there are multiple species on Runeterra. The relation of species may not mean "Us and them" but "Them out of a bunch".

  • "As you sought to end my Race, so I will end yours" Once again, as above, the Sunborn clearly thought themselves not human. They were a Race, but not under the same ideas that we commonly refer to races. Yet, an Immortal Race that may not have Sunborn babies (i don't know if that's how they work) is still a Race.

  • I don't get why this was used as an example. He crosses a world, Runeterra, to wake his buds. Pretty simple, really. For the short story, like said, they were practically Immortal, or at least Immortal to the needs of being Human. As Dude-who-teamed-up-with-Old-Aspect-of-Twilight had done killing one of the other Sunborns (at least using Targon magic to help), they could be killed by things, but with a significant amount more effort.

The Rhaast name example, Riot said something, somewhere, that being Ascended, meant that you were imbued with an ideal or representation of something on Runeterra, and should you die, than that ideal would die as well. This is where I agree something might be off, or at least, something sloppy on Riot's end. Not exactly sure, and I show the same skepticism on this as others have.

You examples from Dinopaws, are kinda picking at thin air honestly. The first link, confirms a lot that Aatrox showed us with his lore, and only reinforces other Darkin/Ascended themes. With your second link, it still doesn't show us anything but the fact that the Darkin were a race. The real question is, can we take a People who only exist due to an Ascension ritual (i don't know if they can breed) and classify them as a 'Race'?

If we look up what a 'Race' is, I think the answer is 'Yes'.

A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society

The Sunborn certainly check off both shared physical and social qualities that are distinct compared to other races.

Overall, I really don't think this is as messed up and complicated as you think it may be. A lot of your issues with the lore stems from what we deem a race to be, or what is confirmed/reinforced in other lores that are older.

Smokin Pepper 8/4/2018, 8:44:47 PM2 votes

I think the idea of them not having the ''new'' darkin lore sorted out stands behind this mess. Honestly, i kind of liked the general idea and mystery behind the original lore, and then they made a severe mess with the update/changes.

Anyway the Pantheon thing I think in the original lore it was intended for Pantheons previous incarnation (Aurelion describes her as wearing gold armor and having red hair) to be the golden armored red haired warrior that imprisoned Aatrox in the blade, which would also explain why he was pissed at Targon etc. but they made a complete mess with the update and nothing reallym fits anymore. I also dont understand the sudden change making Varus the unstable crazy one, when it made sense for Aatrox since he was the first one captured and they didnt do it properly.

Dillywapper8/5/2018, 4:46:01 PM1 votes

I can't speak for his views on Nautilus, even I'm unsure of that.

But as it stands the current lore is that they were ascended, which for being from ancient times and ascending wtih otherworldly divine powers they would think themselves separate to the world.

The Void at icathia ruined many of them mentally as they were still mortals at heart and had the same vulnerabilities in every way but flesh. This caused a lot of distress among their ranks.

With the loss of Azir they truly fell. The infighting and the reeling from the Void war left them empty. Those that United above the quarreling thought themselves Gods and the rightful heirs of Runeterra. They discovered a macguffin blood magic and twisted their forms into something like what we see because the current forms are "mockeries". With their new armored and corrupted bodies they truly became Darkin.

They fought all of humanity and the Targonian pantheon said "they're mortals with divine power. Their hubris will end everything." And stepped in. I think Aatrox sees Pantheon as a traitor because he's the aspect of war, and he too sought to end the Darkin war. But he's especially pissed at Zoe because it was her knowledge that she divulged to the mages about trapping them in weapons. And that's pretty much where we're at.

As for Varus I don't see a lot of his lore being out of line. He was a noble ascended archer and he too fell to corruption. His bow-form was claimed by a proud leader and she used it to defend her lands. She then threw herself into the pool at Pallus and had her mages petrify her body as she would have become a vessel for Varus. (you see this in As we Fall. The shadows and trippyness of the endless tunnel I think is just their minds unraveling from Varus' power)

I think the reason he's more human is that Val and Kai resist him at every step. Their souls still exist and Varus can't seal the pact and twist his body into something more like Rhaast. Just his appendages. Maybe with an update to his model and lines they'll adopt slightly more red aesthetics since that's the Darkin look.

Crimson Zeppelin8/4/2018, 7:33:42 PM1 votes

I think the naming thing is something Aatrox decided as a alias. But Varus kept his old name anyway and Aatrox misunderstood him for the "AA" thing.

Terozu8/4/2018, 10:47:01 PM1 votes

Aatrox was unique in that he was also possessed by an Aspect. A celestial ideal. Which is now dead.

BLIGHTBRINGER8/5/2018, 12:05:31 PM1 votes

Not sure how related this is but...

A Rioter teased a Varus Rework on Reddit some time ago. So i'd expect that during this potential rework some time in the future, that he would have new voice lines, that would clear some of the inconsistencies.

Smartness Immune8/5/2018, 2:23:27 PM1 votes

"I touched the stars, and saw the glorious light of a thousand suns! Now, blinded by this elegance, how could my purpose be anything... but dark..." I`ll just leave that there. I luv it.