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A rexamination of the Noxus-Ionia relationship in light of the removal of the institute of war

Gyges Skyeye··16 votes·3,967 views

*This was initially meant to be a post in Carnival Knights’ thread I apparently can’t post this much into a reply box at once.

I think it’s time we had a talk about that whole Noxian invasion of Ionia thing…

Riot, through its devblogs and other red posts has indicated that it is attempting to craft a much more vibrant world that is involves deeper motivations for its champions. A big chunk of this is removing the puppeteering of the Institute of War/summoners as the strings controlling the character’s actions in favor of suggesting that the characters might actually have their own motivations for the actions they undertake.

I want to examine at the napkin-math level the current relationship between Ionia and Noxus;
-Noxians invaded Ionia because they are dastardly evil-dooers -Ionians all hate Noxus because you hate the dudes that stabbed you with a sword

That is all the relationship is right now. There is no great breadth of interaction between Noxus. It’s a relationship that is entertaining fluff and empty calories. It’s entertaining as a novelty but without much substance or sense of purpose just like the USFL jersey nameplates of “HE HATE ME” and “I HATE HIM”. Its good showmanship antics and that is it. As the story stands there isn’t much room to develop a breadth and diversity of narrative on the Noxian-Ionian conflict. This is problematic for Ionia, an archepelligo otherwise isolated from Runetera except for the Noxus conflict driver. Thankfully there are some very powerful themes with home-hitting familiarity to much of the world markets where League of Legends is played that can be substituted to craft an engaging narrative.

I am going to throw up a big DISCLAIMER here before continuing. Some governments of the world and thus the markets they preside over have insecurity issues on the following themes. An examination would be need to be made at Riot if Localization of the following potential lore would be possible or if censorship issues would preclude it.

Goals;

  1. Identify Noxian and Ionian affinities and their tenants that lead to organically occurring ties between these two factions.
  2. Give Ionian champions a vehicle to break their isolationism and interact in diverse and meaningful ways with the rest of Runeterra.

First, an examination of Noxus

Too often Noxus is trope-cast into being “evil” despite its core affinity being “Power”. The invasion having occurred in the past allows us to examine Noxus’ actions with the lens of history and a textbook almost academic presentation of the city. The Sion relaunch was a great example of this kind of academic presentation. We can see what the systemic, uniquely Noxian problems are that the city state has suffered from. Ultimately they should all flow from the shortcomings of a life guided primarily by ‘Power’.

Noxian Tenants of power a) Noxus supports survival of the powerful (mental, magical, physical) b) The weak while not actively culled are left out to weather in absence. c) No judgement is passed on the means to achieve power d) Supremacy of the human(oid) form and inter-species xenophobia keep Noxus on track

This survival of the powerful tenant drives Noxus into a titanology effect. In Noxian society it is better to have fewer but more powerful offspring, soldiers, weapons, ect. When this tenant has been instituted since antiquity it leads to each Noxian being valuable and hard to replace. Such a sense of irreplaceability serves to build the esprit de corps of Noxus even amongst the lowest members of its society.

Systemic flaws of Noxus a) Noxus has a low population base to work from due to this titanology and is being out-populated into obsolescence by other city states of Valoran b) Noxian quality is at risk of being outweighed by Demacian, Piltoverian, ect’s sheer numbers c) Xenophobic attitude has irreparably damaged relations with continental Valoran.

Noxus’ historical problems with the lack of manpower needed to constantly replace losses from the moral crusades of external forces mean that if today’s Noxus wanted to survive as an independent power they needed to have acted on it one hundred fifty or more years ago. And so, they did…

Potential remedies for the flaws of Noxus a) Conquer Demacia i. This hasn’t exactly worked any of the times they tried it before b) Conquer Piltover i. Friends of Demacia see above c) Conquer Zaun i. Attack our only friends in this world? d) Subjugate various magical beasties of Valoran i. Bugs are gross! ii. A Yordle!?! e) Subjugate Ionia i. It’s got vast numbers of people we could conscript ii. It’s kind of out of the way where no one can easily help them iii. It’s got vast numbers of people who are pacifists iv. It’s residents are kind of obsessed with training personal power just like us!

To Noxus, one of these ideas looks much better than the others and it begins to be easy to see where the idea to make Ionia into a colony of Noxus comes from.

Second, The subjugation of Ionia

This would undoubtedly be a complex process with a lot of room to create narrative background for today’s events – the stories of the champions we do play. My suggestion on the first step of this process is to retcon it backwards in time a significant amount. This will allow for the past tragedies associated with what would certainly be a brutal campaign to remain in the past. Not every single Ionian needs to follow the Inigio Montoya storyline “You killed my (insert relative or martial arts teacher here) Prepare to die!”. It gets old fast and feels really shallow.

Placing the invasion in the past would also let it be used as a thematic hook for key narrative events like Sion’s storyline. Why was Noxus so weak at that moment? Perhaps it was Boram Darkwill’s all-in make or break moment with Noxus’s armies still overseas and only a token homeguard to defend the city itself. An invasion in the past would give more weight to the accomplishments of our chronologically older champions and give them a new thematic bridge to the present day.

Further placing the invasion in the past will allow us to create a sense of stability about the current arrangement of the Noxus-Ionia situation. The time lapsed will allow us to create a track record of Noxian rule in Ionia that will act as the razor that carves the Ionian champion base into smaller more nuanced point of views.

The tenants of Noxian rule should largely derive from the goals of its occupation of Ionia and the Noxian tenants of Power

a) Noxus came to Ionia for manpower. Ionian’s are therefore compelled to serve in the Noxian army during times of conflict.
i. This would take the form of both Ionian led and composed units and integrated forces.
b) Noxian interest is about glory for Noxus not making/converting Ionia to be ‘Noxian’ i. Annexed areas of Ionia are considered ‘part’ of Noxus albeit secondarily to the continental possessions and the city state itself ii. In light of this most of governmental affairs of Ionia are decentralized and assigned to the traditional pre-invasion sources.
c) While ruling Ionia with a loose hand it is a heavy hand and any action crossing beyond civil-disobedient protest and into rebellion is summarily crushed with absolute lack of mercy d) As Noxus is a power driven meritocracy, Ionians that volunteer, pursue, and embrace the spirit of Noxus are given equal advancement consummate with their deeds and in some cases will occupy key positions in military and government e) Not all of the minor and outlying islands of the Ionian archipelago were conquered. Noxus has no designs for these small areas preferring instead to use them as a pressure release valve where dissidents may be exiled to without being martyred

How this Noxian rule has been executed can be a point of contention and a conflict driver for the Ionian characters to debate amongst themselves. What I think would occur is what has occurred in the real world -- a lack of consensus on the best course of action for those with spirt, an apathy to change amongst those that are risk adverse, and a comfort in an orderly status quo amongst those who want to live unmolested. I think that the debate and the narratives that you could craft within this framework would resonate deeply with those areas of the world where grappling with colonialism and its effects is imprinted on the national ethos. (see India, Korea, Indonesia, Philippines, Polynesia, SE Asia, ect)

Third, an examination of Ionia with more leeway from the author

Ionia is really an eclectic collection of champions right now. They are generally trope-typed as eastern themed or martial artsy themed champions. But each point of the collection is so remote from the next that they cannot coordinate the symphony of Ionian story. It’s like trying to build a telecom network in the outback – there are very big distances involved and it gets very expensive. In my mind we need to bring these characters closer together so that they can first live and interact with one another. We can then use vehicles like the Noxian army and Noxian occupation as a vehicle to export these characters to Valoran where they can have rich stories and interactions with the rest of the cast of the League of Legends.

To that end I’ve done a non-exhaustive pass over some of the Ionia champions to group them into camps of sorts with hypothetical attitudes towards the status of Noxian rule in Ionia.

-The Ionian Dunk Squad Jax, Irellia, Master Yi, Wu Kong

These guys list “Cultural-practioning Badass” as their occupation on their tax returns. This is a group with no extreme fondness or love for Noxian rule. They aren’t striving for independence either. They are well aware of the concept of if not Noxus then someone else-- ie) if Demacia were in charge of Ionia instead you could write off having any more council of the elders under the monarchy structure and you can write off all your love of non-theistic spirituality when justice-worshiping Demacia comes to town. With enough street miles to understand realpolitick, Noxian rule is unobtrusive enough for them to go along with it and find other ways to retain, express, and develop their Ionian virtues instead.

Begrudgingly complying with the requirement for military service they seek to show Ionian superiority through their own unique means and prove that Noxus has a deeply flawed understanding of power. -For Jax this is eschewing true weaponry and creaming opponents with a lamppost and other training weapons. What Noxian can do that? -For Irellia, she can do it all with no hands. What Noxian can do that? -For Master Yi, whatever a Noxian can do he can train a monkey to do better. -For Wu Kong, he can do anything better than you. -Whereas Noxian troops may kill all troops these Ionian regiments may force retreats, accept surrenders, take prisoners, ect (much to the disgrace of Noxian Pride)

-Those actively rebelling Yasuo

Once or twice a decade, some Ionian village thinks it wise to rebel. The rebellion usually ends shortly with the village entirely extinguished. How did Yasuo’s village fare? Take a look at his backstory, change virtually nothing, and you have your answer. This gives all the thematic space necessary to pursue the Riven-Yasuo narrative farther. What engendered the village’s rebellion? Perhaps it was Lee Sin’s self-immolation?

-Those in independent Ionia Karma, Lee Sin, Varus

As an escape valve for dissidents, the outlying islands act as an echo chamber for Ionian independence rhetoric and clamor. Their legendary resiliency is exceeded only by their lack of an economic base, of fighting numbers, and overestimation of support from an apathetic mainland Ionian populace.
-Karma, if anyone would be able to rekindle the flame of Ionian Independence it would be this young, diplomatic firebrand. -Lee sin, actually set himself on fire before being exiled to independent Ionia -Varus, probably jumped the gun too early on popping the evil pills.

-Those Noxus x Ionia champs Riven

Perhaps these are the decendents of Noxian noble/military families that resettled to Ionia for personal gain. They have all the pedigree of Noxus but have ‘gone native’ or otherwise have Ionian qualities as well.

Riven participated in the brutal putdown of all challenges to Noxian order in Ionia. Given the jockeying for position that occurs often in the capital there is an inherent hypocrisy about how life out here at the edge of the empire is conducted. She has her own identity crisis to follow.

-Those Ionia x Noxus champs None yet

The invasion of Ionia now being a long standing fact, we have an opening in thematic space for what was once unthinkable. We can now introduce Ionians who have adopted and perfected the spirit of Noxus with their own Ionian abilities. There no longer would have to be a contrived turncoat story to account for this. Ionians could be drawn to pursue this path for any multitude of reasons be it economic or a desire to actually use their power, ect. If I ever get around to finishing it, I have some nice ideas for concept art along these lines and I’m sure other people do too.

At this point I’m curious to know what other players and particularly rioters think of the idea of repositioning the Noxus-Ionia relationship to open things up more and farther away from the squabble about who killed who. It’s supposed to be a happy occasion after all.

34 Comments

LordHippoman6 votes

While I definitely agree that the core intent in writing Noxus was "power", they need to do some serious changing (Please, not retconning) under their new leadership to be anything but the dedicated bad guys. The Noxians have slavery and gladatorial pits, and committed genocide on an entire village of minotaurs. That's all just from Alistar's lore. Dive into Riven's and you get the slaughtering of unarmed Ionian civilians, as well as authorizing the use of what is in effect a fantasy nuclear bomb on their own troops because some Ionians were there too. Serial killers like Shaco hang out in the streets (at least in his old lore, not sure if it changed), and they literally live on top of a GIANT SKULL. It's hard to argue Noxus having any moral ambiguity when they have done nothing good in the Lore except maybe allowing more class fluidity than their Demacian counterparts...although established families like the DuCouteau's and Darkwill's having a ton of power sort of flies in the face of that idea.

We had a discussion about this on the Lore Discussion forum too (RIP) and I sort of proposed two ideas for making Noxus more about the whole "power through individual strength" thing than "hammering the evil button because we can."

  1. Introduce a Noxian who is embodying that concept that gains political clout and opposes Swain. This could be a new character, but I kind of like the idea of it as a continuation of Riven's story, perhaps "redeeming" herself finally by righting the wrongs committed by her city state. The seeds for a Noxian civil war are firmly in place with Katarina and Talon's distrust of Swain, and perhaps they could find an unlikely ally in Riven/whoever the character is. Maybe if he's lucid and sane enough throw Sion in there, as he clearly doesn't seem a fan of Swain in his most clear moments.

  2. Have Swain do some good. Maybe he grants some conquered land back to its original owners, or issues a formal apology to the Freljord for killing barbarians there as "training exercises" (If that's still canon). That's not very Noxian, or Swain-y. But I never said he had to mean it. There could be an ulterior motive for everything he does. Swain is a genius and a schemer, and I think he could manage to swing any deal his way, whether the others know it or not.

Ionia, is, like you said, weird. Their thing seems to be "balance", but they should play that up a little more. The Kinkou triumvirate is mentioned in the lores for its champions and almost nowhere else. What exactly do they do? I think that's something that could be expanded on. Maybe give Syndra more presence, like an actual involvement in Ionian affairs (Hopefully this will also help with the thousands of people who think that comic is canon. It's not. Riot has barely written anything about Syndra.)

(Oh, just FYI, not trying to do a smug "gotcha" or whatever, but you identified Wukong as Ionian, when he's actually from Kumungu. Yi and Doran met him there. Although I can definitely see why, he fits the eastern motif really well. Jax is also not Ionian. Maybe. Kinda. Uh...)

OuttaControl563 votes

Nononono.

You'd break the lore with that stuff. Noxus is always been about power-struggles, you can't have someone campaign against the Supreme Generalissimo. That makes 0 sense.

They don't have elections in Noxus, first off, they have Successions. As stated with Darkwill and how his son rose to take the throne.

Secondly, there are tons of coups. You think that Darkwill was the original bloodline? Why else does the Black Rose exist? The Noxian throne has always been unstable. You think that the old houses in Noxus are bulletproof, but Darkwill's is pretty much kaput and the Du Coteau line is walking a thin line. Most of the Demacian families haven't changed over the years. I wouldn't be surprised that these "Old and powerful" families are considered babies compared to how "old" the Demacian bloodlines are.

You might want to see some moral flexibility in Noxus, but you should already see it. They're completely free, and in that freedom not everyone is a moral-less monstrosity. Katarina has a deep code of ethic, as does Darius, Riven, Talon, probably SIon if he collects enough souls... and heck, even Draven and Cassiopeia. Just because they have quirks shouldn't distract you from the fact that they all want the best for Noxus as a whole. When Katarina gives you her word, she means it. You don't get a guarantee like that in Runeterra.

Meanwhile, do-good Demacia, everyone is expected to follow the code of conduct but you see people like Vayne and Lucian who just break off and screw the system, or take it a step too far.

Also, Swain is doing good. Noxus is in a superior position compared to the rest of the City States. He embarrassed Demacia and successfully tarnished their moral superiority with the Kalamanda trickiness, and he's solidified ties to Zuan. The power Noxus has is much more threatening and versatile than what Demacia has to offer, which is just building a wall around its border as if that would help things.

LordHippoman5 votes

We had Swain campaigning against Keiran after his dad died. Naturally, that ended in violence, but you can totally oppose the Grand General and live. The current Grand General is living proof.

My problem with considering the Noxus/Demacia thing "Shades of Grey" is that every horrible thing Noxus has done that people bring up is in the canon lore. Canonically, the bad thing about Demacia is that they pressed Lux into military service. All that stuff about how you get executed for minor crimes or how they'll execute you for even having ties to Noxus is Fanon, and all debunked in the same JoJ story, the one where drunk Sivir joyrides around Demacia. That's a minor crime, and she worked for Noxus as a mercenary (although that might not be canon anymore). She got a slap on the wrist. Meanwhile Noxus caught Veigar sneaking around and threw him in solitary confinement so long he went completely batshit insane.

I'm interested, where do you get the thing about Katarina's "code of ethics"? I'm not trying to say it's not there, but I've never seen it in canon lore. Katarina in particular I see as kind of a "problem" champion, because a lot of the Fan Fiction fanbase wants to make her seem like someone who can be "changed" so she'll fit nicely into their OCXKatarina stories. Meanwhile...

Katarina : Violence solves EVERYTHING!

You also bring up an interesting point when you mentioned House Darkwill's age. We know they're at least as old as the Jarvan dynasty, considering in Reborn Sion kills Jarvan the First, and Boram is still in charge during that time. We haven't heard of a successful coup in Noxus to my knowledge in any official Lore, but like you mentioned, it seems inevitable in a place like Noxus, so I'd really like to hear about some pre-Darkwill stuff.

OuttaControl561 votes

Swain never openly opposed Keiran. There's a difference from being a sullen (or just quiet) advisor who follows orders to someone who openly says "I want you out of that throne!". In the Sion Lore, Keiran the first actually collaborates with the Black Rose to resurrect Sion. They were manipulators but Keiran wasn't aware (completely). In a place like Noxus espionage within the royal castle wouldn't surprise me.

Next, Katarina. Her lore kinda makes it clear that she's not some wimp who bows out of the job. She goes in, gets the scar, deals with it and resolves to never let passion interfere with duty. Her VO is one of a very sardonic and cruel lady, but she doesn't yahoo around when it comes to trust or honor.

Katarina "Never question my loyalty. You will never know what I endure for it."

Truth be told, the Pre-Darkwill stuff is obviously headcanon, but its something that I consider is obvious due to the Black Rose. They've been in the game for so long it only makes sense that the structure of Noxian Politics is just like its ethics: Dog eat dog. Cronyism and "retirement" of any suspicious parties who affiliated with the previous General wouldn't surprise me, and its been the Noxian way for a long time.

LordHippoman1 votes

My bad, should have been more clear. I didn't mean that Katarina was disloyal or a backstabber or anything, I meant that she's not morally sound. Sure, she's loyal to Noxus, but Noxus is in the business of genocide and assassination and she just rolls along with it.

I think I should fix my own statement on that a little though. We did see Katarina working for the greater good with Talon during the Kalamanda arc, when they colluded with Garen and Jarvan to reveal the conspiracy that led to the war (Please don't retcon that too hard, it was really cool). So she's definitely not the puppy kicking, blood bathing, psycho some of her lines make her sound like. Which at least puts her above people like Shaco and Mordekaiser.

I'm probably just too jaded towards the character. There are only so many times you can read "Katarina takes off her sexy clothes in a sexy way for my sexy summoner" in bad self-insert fanfiction before everytime you see the character you cry a little inside :p

Bad Fanfic Fridays have ruined me. item 3070

OuttaControl562 votes

Please don't remind me of FanFiction Friday. Please. ;-;

Katrina, while rough and sharp, has a code of ethics. Her statement on loyalty is not exclusive to Noxus, it's a statement. If she's loyal to you, she will do what it takes to get stuff done for you. That's deeper than a bunch of people in Runeterra. Heck, that rivals Demacia's standards.

As you said: she's not that loyal to Noxus, Noxus disappeared her dad and is currently ruled by the guy who made it happen (Also Leblanc). This was the whole reason she went to Demacia (as you stated). There is a lot of empty space how to interpret her, and it's definitely not her being morally bankrupt. I don't even think she bothers with doing nasty stuff on the side, I'm pretty sure she's too busy trying to appear neutral in front of Swain and keep the Du Coteau house alive despite the tumultuous times. No rest, gotta work.

My interpretation is that her VO is just full of dark, mocking humor. Demacia always says that Noxus is evil, hence Katarina is evil, so she goes around making an absolute fool out of Demacian's and their do-good moral creed. They have their own gambling rings and outlaws (Twisted Fate lore), she sees right through this guise of righteousness and taunts them for it. Evil is live spelled backwards. No coincidence! There's also the bits where she actually gets a bit heated from the thrill of battle, but that's not evil in itself. Katarina is a experienced warrior who knows how to control her passionate passions, if you get my drift. This makes her one very independent lady who don't need no man...

WhichsetsupsuchaniceandinterestingchemistrybetweenherandGarensorryicouldn'thelpmyself.

CupcakeTrap5 votes

A big chunk of this is removing the puppeteering of the Institute of War/summoners as the strings controlling the character’s actions in favor of suggesting that the characters might actually have their own motivations for the actions they undertake.

I wish people would stop parroting this.

Dreamspitter2 votes

A big chunk of this is removing the puppeteering of the Institute of War/summoners as the strings controlling the character’s actions in favor of suggesting that the characters might actually have their own motivations for the actions they undertake.

I wish people would stop parroting this.

???

CupcakeTrap6 votes

The idea that the League was made up of a bunch of all-powerful Summoners who puppet-mastered Champions, or that Champions were somehow enslaved.

The League is a means of granting Champions greater agency, not diminishing it. Speaking of Ionia, for example, Karma is a skillful diplomat who I see as a leader within the League due to her political acumen.

The League is a means to an end for Champions. It's a way to represent and, well, champion the cause of their homeland (or whatever other cause they pursue, even if that's just "getting paid") on the international stage.

OuttaControl561 votes

I feel you.

Probably the only problem about this, AKA the big one, is that there's no reason for Demacia to meet Noxus on the field of battle, only for League Matches. An infringement on League authority would piss off nearly every other city-state, so its a collective removal of responsibility and instead putting it on the IoW.

Think of it like this. If Noxus Invades Ionia again, the rest of the nations save Zuan will immediately help Ionia and knock Noxus around. Why? Because if Noxus gets away, they might want to go after you next, instead of settling disputes on the Field of Justice. War suddenly becomes unfeasible because there's a new, better version that benefits everyone since there's less risk and less collateral damage.

So it ultimately strangles Runeterran Lore.

HOWEVER, Riot has a long way to go to actually rival the original lore. There is a lot of World building that they have left to do. They have given some information on about 4 city states, they have about 9 more to go...

CupcakeTrap4 votes

Probably the only problem about this, AKA the big one, is that there's no reason for Demacia to meet Noxus on the field of battle, only for League Matches. An infringement on League authority would piss off nearly every other city-state, so its a collective removal of responsibility and instead putting it on the IoW.

The League's mandate is to prevent another Rune War, not to bring world peace.

Rather than argue this abstractly, here is a concrete example: the war for Shon-Xan in Factions.

OuttaControl562 votes

Sorry, factions don't cut it. A war happens after the Void war is finished, which is completely off-canon because nobody is even preparing for the Void to arrive, not even Kassadin. Kassadin wants to prevent the void from even entering because he knows that the battle would be lost if the Void ever enters Runeterra..... Where the hell was he during the start of the Void war? Why didn't he try to stop Demacia? How was he caught off-guard by all of this? Voidlings and ghast coming form cracks in the earth? Why not throw in the watchers for good measure?

It just doesn't fit canon, man... Factions is a nice extension or version of LoL lore, but it is by no means a great fit. The Void War, the ultimate apocalyptic event known in LoL canon, was necessary as a setup for a war between two factions. Is that necessary for every bloody war now?

Not to talk down to your Factions. It's great. Just... Not really canon-able, through my eyes.

CupcakeTrap4 votes

Given that Narrative thought it was not reaching too far to completely erase the League and rework huge swaths of lore, I don't think strict adherence to canon is a requirement here. Instead, my point is that much more modest adjustments and revisions to canon can suffice to allow for (e.g.) wars.

Though the Void War was a proximate cause, the war for Shon-Xan could have happened without it. A trivial alteration: make up some other disaster that sent Noxian refugees fleeing to Ionia. Or create a new casus belli.

To explain the League's relation to warfare in Factions: the League's mandate is to prevent a world-destroying Rune War, not to ensure world peace. Many within the League try to use the League's framework to promote peaceful resolution of disputes, but when push comes to shove the Council will not put its credibility on the line unless the conflict really does threaten the planet. For example, in Kalamanda, the League saw Demacia and Noxus, both superpowers and founding members of the League, battling in close proximity to a Nexus. It therefore made the extremely dangerous decision to put itself between them and essentially play a game of chicken with the fate of Runeterra in the balance. It essentially said: "If you two do this, it means the end of the League. If you still support the League, back off." There was a very real chance that Demacia and Noxus would have called their bluff, and the League would have fallen, likely bringing about another Rune War as Demacia and Noxus each brought their allies into a full-scale conflict with no League to set limits or boundaries, or to enforce laws of war.

The League certainly didn't do that when Noxus invaded Shon-Xan. They instead insisted that these two keep fighting limited to Shon-Xan itself, rather than spilling over into the Ionian mainland, and set other limits to prevent it from escalating too far.

From a storytelling perspective, the League actually supports war storylines. Most historical wars ended with a peace conference where the two sides argued back and forth about who got what, based on politicking and an appraisal of each side's military position. The League provides a permanent forum for such disputes.

The League also allows you to have conflicts between nations that aren't all-out war. Piltover and Bandle City aren't likely to go to war with each other, but with the League, it's possible to have them slug it out for control over territory, an artifact, some other dispute, without actually murdering one another. A random, lighter plot idea: a Mothership-like craft is discovered in the Freljord, near where Gnar was found. Bandle City and the Freljord both claim it under different theories of property rights. It'd be weird (to say the least) to have a real war arc between Bandle City and the Freljord, but with the League, they can fight it out on the Fields of Justice, with an added measure of political intrigue and mystery.

OuttaControl561 votes

Yeah, but Noxus and Demacia didn't call them on their bluff.

Thats exactly my point.

Of course they could go to war, but its a bad alternative than by simply going through the IoW.

The whole point of the IoW was to prevent another Rune War by being the stage at which all city states would settle their disputes. Period. The Kalmanda incident was a near collapse of the system, but as already stated, thanks to Zilean and Summoners, as well as Noxus and Demacia's immediate reversal of policy, the IoW remained.

With the Shon-Xan, seems really dumb for the IoW to "Hunger-Games" the island and just try and prevent the conflict from spilling over. In fact, a league tournament didn't even solve the conflict. Its almost as if the IoW doesn't exist or do jack diddly squat... Completely uncharacteristic of the previous lore where the IoW stopped a war from beginning between the two largest city states in the world, but apparently one island war they can't stop? Is the IoW's effectiveness decided through dice rolls?

I dunno man, I like how cohesive Factions can be, but at the same time its so contradictory to the lore its trying to emulate.

CupcakeTrap5 votes

With the Shon-Xan, seems really dumb for the IoW to "Hunger-Games" the island and just try and prevent the conflict from spilling over. In fact, a league tournament didn't even solve the conflict. Its almost as if the IoW doesn't exist or do jack diddly squat... Completely uncharacteristic of the previous lore where the IoW stopped a war from beginning between the two largest city states in the world, but apparently one island war they can't stop? Is the IoW's effectiveness decided through dice rolls?

I appreciate the critique; it's good for people to come around and kick the tires periodically. I think I can answer this, though.

In short: it's not a matter of whether the League could have stopped Shon-Xan cold. As with Kalamanda, it would be a very dangerous play: it might have worked, or it might have resulted in Noxus telling the League to go shove it. Instead, it was a question of whether the League would make such a dangerous play. It was necessary to take such a huge risk in Kalamanda, but it wasn't in Shon-Xan.

Kalamanda involved Valoran's two superpowers starting a war on top of a Nexus. That's a recipe for global catastrophe. The League had to put all its chips down in a desperate bid to end this before it spiraled out of control.

Shon-Xan was a fight between Noxus and Ionia on a single island. The League was dismayed with both sides: with Noxus for starting a war, with Ionia for "declining" to heed the League's request that all nations open their borders for Noxian refugees from the Void War as a humanitarian act. But it wasn't threatening to destroy Runeterra. Both sides were willing to limit the conflict to control over a single piece of a single island.

The matches on the Fields actually were quite important to how that war played out. For example, the first tournament of that arc arose when the two sides were on the verge of a naval battle for the port of Shon-Xan. Since that battle would almost certainly have destroyed the port, both sides agreed to resolve it via tournament. Ionia won, which cut the Noxian refugees off from supplies and reinforcements. Later, Ionia's victories opened the door to limited intervention by Demacia.

OuttaControl561 votes

But thats the thing! If the IoW was able to stop Demacia and Noxus from starting an all out war, why would they just balk and not do it during Shon-Xan? If everything was settled by the match and then Ionia started a war on the Island, there is more than enough reason for the IoW to intervene.

Even worse, the IoW decided it would decide if the Noxian refugees would get supplies and reinforcements, and when Noxus lost apparently the IoW decided uphold that end of the bargain? What the fruit?

Your IoW is spotty as hell. Enforcing some decisions and not enforcing other tournament decisions. Not really what I'd think the canon would be...

Once again, just critique.

CupcakeTrap2 votes

If the IoW was able to stop Demacia and Noxus from starting an all out war, why would they just balk and not do it during Shon-Xan?

Like I said, because the stakes were higher. Preventing Demacia and Noxus from going at each other on top of a Nexus was, the Council decided, worth risking the League itself. A wilderness skirmish between Noxian refugees and Ionian partisans did not so persuade them.

If everything was settled by the match and then Ionia started a war on the Island, there is more than enough reason for the IoW to intervene.

Who started Shon-Xan? That's a very debatable question. Desperate Noxian refugees fled across the sea and landed on the coast of Ionia. Did the High Command know refugees were going to Ionia? Maybe. It's not really clear. There were a lot of refugees going to a lot of places. Did Ionia start a war once the refugees were there? Karma refused to deploy the military to slaughter them, but meanwhile, local Ionians took matters into their own hands and attacked the settlement. Karma didn't exactly stop them, either. Noxus said that it was going to send troops to defend its people, who had after all traveled to Ionia after the Council urged all the nations of Valoran to offer such humanitarian allowances until Noxian land could be restored. Ionia deployed its fleet to stop the Noxian fleet. They each declared that the other had started a war through their actions and failures to act. And add on top of this that there's a difference between what an omniscient, objective observer would conclude and what can be proven by whom. Like most wars, it was very messy.

Both sides had their claims. Both sides also had sway with the League. Their ambassadors were surely called in for some very heated arguments, and at the end of it both of them assented to League oversight. (They both, in fact, probably wanted League oversight: Noxus was in no shape to go toe-to-toe with Demacia, and Ionia wasn't eager to be used as a battleground for a world-shattering clash of superpowers. Remember that at this time, Demacia was essentially a hegemon. Its weakness, from the Noxian perspective, was that it ultimately still believed in the League's mission.)

Even worse, the IoW decided it would decide if the Noxian refugees would get supplies and reinforcements, and when Noxus lost apparently the IoW decided uphold that end of the bargain? What the fruit?

I'm not sure I understand your point. The League said that it would oversee the conflict over the port. Ionia won. The port came under Ionian jurisdiction, with League oversight.

Your IoW is spotty as hell. Enforcing some decisions and not enforcing other tournament decisions. Not really what I'd think the canon would be...

What are they not enforcing? It's true that their degree of enforcement varies from firm to light. This is par for the course in politics, including international politics: there are times when you realize that your legitimacy will tolerate only moderate enforcement of formal legal rights, so you take a light touch. But I'm not sure which tournament decisions you're saying they didn't enforce. You mean the prior Noxus versus Ionia clash? Yes, but the refugees added a wildcard into the mix. Think about European history: just about every power had at some point signed a peace treaty with every other power. They still got into plenty of wars.

Calling the IoW "spotty as hell" is an accusation that almost certainly is leveled at it in-universe. That is a very legitimate perspective: many will say that it's just a puppet of Demacia, or of Noxus, and that it's doomed to collapse. Others say it's Valoran's last best hope for peace. Myself? I think the League of Legends is an embattled supranational entity trying to hold Valoran together. It contains both some internationally-minded idealists who want to end war, and a number of delegates from powerful nations, each with their own agendas. The regime it oversees reflects this.

OuttaControl561 votes

First, a naval battle between Noxus and Ionia was put on hold and instead decided on the Fields of Justice because if they fought they would have destroyed the port in the process. So when Noxus loses, they follow the rules. Losing a port would be bad, you know?

So league oversight, sure!

But apparently, with the next league match deciding that Noxus deserves to keep its settlement, Ionia and Noxus both decide that starting an all out war on Shon-Xan is somehow less costly than blowing up a port, so its okay to go nuts and not abide by the league judgment.

...What the actual fudge? What's worse, the IoW does nothing about this? Where the hell is that glorious "League Oversight" that occurred over a freaking port? Where is it after this league match?

Of course the IoW should have intervened. No excuses. Timefield, magical barriers, the whole nine freaking yards. If both sides are asking for oversight and order and there's a sudden escalation of conflict, how the heck did the IoW decide "You know I think we don't have the proper standing to get involved." How could they NOT get involved, this was a simpler case than Kalamanda!

This sort of ruined landscape ravaged by chemicals and magic was exactly what they were trying to prevent. Everyone knew that Noxus winning would cause some conflict, but apparently the IoW was like "Well as long as you don't swear, you can do whatever. Just remember, Ionia has the port! We oversaw that like a pro :]"

There's irresponsibility and stupidity on ALL sides of this quagmire. Its depressing and its a perfect fuel for a future Rune War, which is something the IoW wants to stop.

Can you dig my angle? The IoW looks dumb here. Really, really dumb. Really, really, REALLY dumb. In the JoJ, they waved their magical orbs in front of Demacia and Noxus and said "Stop kiddos", fully aware of the implications of what could have happened. In fact, there were so many factions present in Kalamanda they pretty much messed with every freaking city-state we know of. It was much riskier than just pissing off Noxus and Demacia, they asserted their global authority for the first time, and it worked. The system worked!

Now both Noxus and Ionia are asking/pleading for order, and the IoW is like some blushing maiden that ultimately just sits there while war crimes occur.

I dunno, I understand you want to make the IoW less "OP", and its not difficult, but at the same time you're making them completely ineffective. Sure, they saved a port, but it was probably destroyed with the freaking WAR that enveloped the entire island and turned it into a chemical wasteland.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

The IoW kept the fighting limited to Shon-Xan. It also eventually enforced a truce. Finally, although Ionia was able to secure authorization for a limited Demacian intervention, it didn't turn into an all-out war between Demacia and Noxus. I think the IoW ultimately did alright there.

As for the particulars, I don't really have time to go line by line. (Full disclosure: I myself would need to refresh my recollection of the blow-by-blow particulars of Shon-Xan. Most of it was done in narrative style, rather than as a removed historical overview, so the particulars aren't always clear.) However, I appreciate your critiques, and they'll be taken into account when (speaking of time) we set up a Factions wiki with more encyclopedic than narrative accounts of what's happened so far.

OuttaControl562 votes

Glad to hear. I just want the best for the lore like you guys, but I'm too lazy to help with the writing so I'll just sit here and critique like a lazy jerk I am.

Er...

Anyhow, the main problem is that there needs to be something that prevents the League from interfering. There would be no way that the IoW would support a "contained conflict". As stated before, during Kalmanda they time froze not only Demacia and Noxus, but also Bilgewater, Piltover, Bandle City, etc. Then they decided Kalmanda was theirs, and the rest of the city states should just deal with it. They went all out just to stop a single battle, there's no question they'd interfere with this conflict.

Because of this, to keep the war, I feel that you need something that is going to stop the League in its tracks. I doesn't need to be much: A malfunction of Nexus fragments puts a halt into their transportation towards Ionia (The IoW is a long ways away). This period is where the hostilities boil over and the IoW arrives late to stop the conflict.

CupcakeTrap1 votes

To the extent that Kalamanda implies an all-powerful (or nearly all-powerful) League that will act to stop any conflict, we might need to put a new spin on Kalamanda. I personally don't see Kalamanda that way, but it deserves a proper explanation when we go through all this.

As for what might limit the League's involvement in Ionia, I really feel it should be primarily political. That might involve some aspect of what you're describing, with things getting too messy too fast.

Cookiehime3 votes

But closer to the actual topic.

The ideas presented in the OP sound reasonable and could make things work. There now needs to be more valid and believable reasons as to why the invasion took place, especially without the Institute. As a recap, the reason the whole conflict happened in the old lore was because Ionia refused to be part of the League and Noxus took that opportunity to invade since the League would not settle disputes and mediate for the Ionians who willingly chose not to be affiliated with it. Forming a pact with the League was similar to forming a peace treaty whereby everyone who was part of the institution would agree to its terms and decide to settle disputes on the FoJ instead of murdering one another in a full-blown war. Those who were not members of the League had, in some ways, agreed to receive no protection whatsoever from outer forces or threats and those who were members were not allowed to destroy one another with Rune War levels of magical destruction because they mutually agreed not to. The Ionians only appealed to the League and demanded to be part of it after the terrible losses they suffered during the invasion. So, Noxus would only retain control over the Southern Provinces which they had already acquired before the appeal and did not proceed further North once Ionia joined the League. Most of the events that happened were based on agreements, pacts and respect of such formalities. From a purely political standpoint, the Ionia-Noxus conflict was pretty cool.

I hope they don't retcon the Ionian-Noxus conflict so it happened under Swain's rule. Launching the invasion is something Darkwill would do, not Swain. Imo, that'll bea bit OOC for Swain to use this method judging by how he had always achieved his goals unless he has legitimate reasons for attacking Ionia. Without the IoW I don't know why Noxus would choose to invade Ionia in an attempt to claim it as their territory. They could take the same route as the Shurima event, like finding an ancient relic that would allow them to gain more power (kinda like how Cass was sent on a mission to uncover the secret powers that lied within the Shuriman tombs). Or it could be for the reasons mentioned in the OP which sound much more valid. Or the team could also come up with even better reasons but we'll have to wait and see. Soon (tm).

Crowe Stalker3 votes

I'm amazed how many people think 'Power' means 'Big Muscular Guy Darius'. Noxus cares about more than just Physical Strength. Sure, Strength is important, but it's not the only KIND of Strength there is in Noxus. Bulking Muscles will get you far, but if you really want to get high up the Chain of Command, you need to be capable of leading your soldiers and outsmarting your political rivals, lest they stab you in the back.

Darius is the obvious Strength of Noxus, but if Noxus was Purely Strength, he would be Grand General. Swain had somehow convinced Darius that he would lead Noxus back into Power, to strengthen the next generation and to ensure Noxus remained the most powerful nation. He did not see this in Keiran, whom he put to the Axe himself after Swain commanded him to (and don't tell me Swain didn't campaign against Keiran, that's exactly what he did in the Journal of Justice, which is so far the only Insight into the Noxian Civil War.)

Also, Boram did not approve of the Nobility. Before Boram, Noxus was controlled by it's Nobility, and most of the influential individuals belonged to The Black Rose. Boram came into power by a Military Coupe.

Swain is not Strong like Darius IN THE SENSE OF ACTUAL STRENGTH, Swain is Strong Of Will, and Strong Of Wit. he is calculating, able to outmaneuver his foes ('I'm Five Steps Ahead Of You.') and uses his knowledge of strategy to beat his enemies. His is a way of wearing down, not overpowering, and properly utilized his abilities harass the enemy out of lane. He forgoes Brute Force in favor of Weathering Through Defenses. Does that sound like a Brute Force Tactic, or does it sound like a Strategic Trade-Off, Forgoing Strong All-Ins in exchange for Infinite Harassment?

Zkaiser2 votes

Karma used to play up the balance aspect of Ionia more before her relaunch. Irelia's also talks of balance and demonstrates it with her W.

Decaedeus2 votes

You're missing a point: the Noxian invasion of Ionia FAILED. That's what item 3158 is dedicated to; the Ionian victory over Noxus.

junglerboy162 votes

Except YOU are missing the point: THAT ISN'T IN THE LORE ANYMORE. He is talking about how to weave a new storyline to compensate for that fact. He has a lot of great ideas really, and they actually make more sense than the boring same old same old "I'm Ionian and my family died, so I am really powerful" cliche that we have now.

Dreamspitter1 votes

Noxus = The Sith.

It wasnt really a good/evil thing in the beginning for Sith, but restraint vs freedom/emotion.

Captain Aishi1 votes

Here is a fun historical fact:

King Darius the Great was the person in charge of quelling the Ionian rebellions

Great presentation on your post!

Crowe Stalker1 votes

Okay, I was linked to this, and I have to point out one gaping flaw in your philosophy. I am a Swain Roleplayer on a few platforms, and I've interacted with other Swains, and Darius', and even a Katarina and Cassiopeia. While it is true Noxus goes into a Drive for Power, Noxus does not purposely sacrifice numbers. Families are encouraged (though not directly given incentives) to have multiple births to ensure Noxus is always populated, and Noxus is one of the most populated city-states in Valoran despite all of their wars. As strong as they are, they are not the Rakkor. They can't be devoted to Sheer Strength and forget their Numbers.

To LordHippoman, that's exactly how I envision Swain. He isn't Evil Because Evil, he's a more Subtle Evil, one that's willing to do some good to establish power or sympathy in another place so he can cash in his chips later. I even imagined him making a Noxian/Ionian Treaty at one point to publicly prove he's not like his Predecessor, Boram Darkwill, to Foreign Entities and begin showing a more Diplomatic side to Noxus. However, having Political Opponents pisses Swain off, and he will sick the Military, The Black Rose, and Independent Mercenaries to kill them (except for Katarina, she's too well-entrenched in the Military to try without risking another Civil War he's not ready to fight so long as Riven and The Reformists draw breath)

Swain, as much as I can understand him, is not stupid, and he's not Evil for the fun of it. He's capable of a whole lot more than Boram ever was, because even while he has to contend with the possibility of Traitors much more than Boram did (because very few people trust him, even inside his borders) he is capable of much more subtle plays, like making a Peace Treaty with the Ionians or actually going to other city-states to talk with their leaders. And he is charismatic to everyone except Demacians (but even that has exceptions, like Lucian, who isn't in their Military, and Sona BuVelle, because he loves her music and respects her talent.)

Jibamao1 votes

Terrible ideas.

GreenLore1 votes

Overall karmas lore mentions how some Ionians want revenge on noxus,while others want to remain peaceful&traditional.

That doesn't mean there is some split in ionia,like the freljord,I mean Akali and Zed would probably be for answering the noxian invasion with violence(akali is rather ruthless and zed seems to be against the traditions of ionia),but they are still on opposing sides.

Speaking of the ninjas,they seem rather distant from this whole noxus conflict,what did they even do during the invasion?

Cookiehime1 votes

People seem to have some diverging opinions over what Noxus is but I think everyone here agrees that Noxus is all about "power" and being able to climb up the ranks regardless of one's socio-political status (that's how I understood it). This is evidenced with Darius' lore where, despite his initially poor social background and condition as an orphan, he had managed to rise up the ladders through sheer determination and strength, getting himself and his brother out of the difficulties they faced as orphans, and eventually becoming the "Hand of Noxus."

There's also Riven who, despite having a slightly less detailed background of her former life, has risen up into the Elite through sheer strength and physical prowess. She grew up, was taught and was trained with the ideal that only the strong survive in Noxus. She was, however, disillusioned during the war in Ionia where everything she was taught kinda flew out of the window when both friend and foe, Noxian comrades and Ionian enemies, were killed by the Zaunite chemical weapons regardless of their alliance or strength.

The fact that the ruling class in Noxus, pre-Swain, were nobles (Darkwill, DuCouteau, etc.) and have been affluent in Noxus for a very long time makes one question if the Noxian ideal of "power" rang true. Maybe they were too strong and no one had managed to overcome them until the Swain coup, where under-handed tactics had to be used to bring them down (deal with the Institute, Kalamanda assasination, Marcus' disappearance, LB conspiracy, etc.). I don't think Swain would have been able to win a 1v1 against either Keiran or Boram or even Marcus.

So, what is "Power" in Noxian terms? I think that under Boram, it may have all been about raw physical strength. Schemers like LB and Swain and the whole of the Black Rose society do not seem to possess that kind of raw power and are most definitely the kind of 'magey' individuals whose strengths lie elsewhere from what one may call "brute force." Hopefully, more light will be shed about them, their identity and their purpose.

But Darius, even though he climbed up the ranks with pure physical strength and iron determination, recognized Swain as the "true" leader of Noxus and deeply respected him, choosing not to take power for himself and instead acting as the right-hand man. I think Darkwill's rule and the influence Noxian nobility had over the city-state for what would seem like centuries could have had something to do with that. Whether he was right or wrong in trusting Swain to lead the country is up to debate. So, what is Swain plotting right now?

SlackerboyTC1 votes

isnt ionia supposed to be similar to asia which for the most part didnt interact with many people, why would they change ionia because of the institute of war

ZenithEevee1 votes

Riven X Irelia will still be holding strong.

Besides, I'm sure we all know that ionia* just wants to be peaceful with noxus...

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