Things in Fiora's lore that need explaining

All Might Jr·10/9/2015, 5:39:15 AM·15 votes·3,912 views
  1. So is compulsory military no longer a part of Demacian culture? Why was this changed when the lore, splash arts, and just about everything has been implying that Demacia is beset on all fronts while also beginning a new war with Noxus. It makes no real sense that someone would want their daughter to play with dolls and dresses if they were destined for the army.

  2. Is the old meteorcratic system of ranking changed to a patriarchy? If so (WHY). Why take the city-state that has more women representing it then men, women who are trained, professional soldiers and warriors, women with agency and backstories, and completely diminish their power in the setting? Why do this with DEMACIA? I get it, grey and grey and grey and no black and white and blah blah, but why make them so utterly archaeic in comparison to their old lore selves? Especially when they have been getting the shaft in nearly every event, none of their characters being able to do anything with impact without getting fucked over by Noxus or someone else? They haven't had a clear victory in ages, just ties and losses.

  3. Is Demacia now going to become unbearably draconic? Where an entire family is exiled due to one man's crime? Where a woman has no right to refuse a suitor? Where everything is settled with duels to the death? Is the constitutional monarchy that used to be in place gone? I had this very real concern a while ago when Ekko came out and I could see that they wanted to muddle up the morality of the setting. And I was guessing that they were going to give Demacia some new fatal flaw. But I didn't think they would completely re-write their culture to do so.

All in all I'm very, VERY unhappy with the changes made to Demacia. This isn't "grey", especially considering how misogyny is viewed today. This is an unrepentant splash of black taking over sensible established lore.

I'd really like a Rioter to explain the decision here. I'm fine with Demacia being grey, but retconning their noble and optimistic system where your ability decided your destiny, rather than birth or gender into a samey and needlessly generic patriarchy.

43 Comments

Helmight10/9/2015, 8:52:06 AM13 votes
  1. So is compulsory military no longer a part of Demacian culture? Why was this changed when the lore, splash arts, and just about everything has been implying that Demacia is beset on all fronts while also beginning a new war with Noxus. It makes no real sense that someone would want their daughter to play with dolls and dresses if they were destined for the army.

Still a part of Demacian culture. Remember that Fiora was a noble - in places like Demacia, I guarantee that nobles pay their way out of their commissions more often than not. I'm also assuming that the "dolls and dresses" part was before she was old enough for compulsory service.

  1. Is the old meteorcratic system of ranking changed to a patriarchy? If so (WHY). Why take the city-state that has more women representing it then men, women who are trained, professional soldiers and warriors, women with agency and backstories, and completely diminish their power in the setting? Why do this with DEMACIA? I get it, grey and grey and grey and no black and white and blah blah, but why make them so utterly archaeic in comparison to their old lore selves? Especially when they have been getting the shaft in nearly every event, none of their characters being able to do anything with impact without getting fucked over by Noxus or someone else? They haven't had a clear victory in ages, just ties and losses.

Demacia never had a meritocracy. They were always ruled by the nobles, and it was always implied that it was a patriarchy. Even if the implication was never there, it fits with what we know about Demacia's hypocritical society and stands as a sharp contrast to Noxus, where anyone can rule if they have power.

Nor has the power of their women decreased. If anything, it's increased because the champions we've seen have had to fight for what they've got against the cultural restrictions.

Everything that has come to light has been completely on par with Demacia of old.

  1. Is Demacia now going to become unbearably draconic? Where an entire family is exiled due to one man's crime? Where a woman has no right to refuse a suitor? Where everything is settled with duels to the death? Is the constitutional monarchy that used to be in place gone? I had this very real concern a while ago when Ekko came out and I could see that they wanted to muddle up the morality of the setting. And I was guessing that they were going to give Demacia some new fatal flaw. But I didn't think they would completely re-write their culture to do so.

Demacia's thing was and has always been "justice - by law, or by sword." If you break laws, you are expected to be punished for them. Having draconic laws makes sense, and at any rate the "one man's crime" was a big deal. Planning to sabotage a duel between nobles is unthinkable, so it makes sense that his entire house would be punished too.

Not everything is settled with duels to the death, but Fiora isn't respected by the men of the court and prefers bladework to politicking anyways. The men believe they can beat her - after all she's "only" a woman - and then get offed. And nobody's learned yet.

Constitutional monarchy's still in place, but they don't have to get involved in every noble spat. That's what the law is for.

All in all I'm very, VERY unhappy with the changes made to Demacia. This isn't "grey", especially considering how misogyny is viewed today. This is an unrepentant splash of black taking over sensible established lore.

It's still grey, mate. Patriarchies are not inherently evil, and the use of the trope here is important for the development of Demacia in contrast to Noxus. And at any rate, Demacia needed way more grey. Noxus was built around a goddamn skull mountain, for Mike's sake - they have evil painted all over them. Demacia meanwhile was golden-haired knights in shining armor with nothing awful about them at all. They needed more to dirty them up, and using something that people nowadays regard as awful is a good way of going about it. The fact that you're this upset about it means that the Riot staff did a good job.

Dreamspitter10/9/2015, 7:07:42 AM13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Of Gent Intent,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=o7Rb3tbI,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-09T05:39:15.121+0000)

  1. Is Demacia now going to become unbearably draconic? Where an entire family is exiled due to one man's crime?

"Nobody is innocent, there are merely varying levels of guilt"

[{quoted}](name=Of Gent Intent,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=o7Rb3tbI,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-09T05:39:15.121+0000)

Where everything is settled with duels to the death?

"By their deaths you shall know them."

[{quoted}](name=Of Gent Intent,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=o7Rb3tbI,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-09T05:39:15.121+0000)

Is the constitutional monarchy that used to be in place gone? I had this very real concern a while ago when Ekko came out and I could see that they wanted to muddle up the morality of the setting. And I was guessing that they were going to give Demacia some new fatal flaw. But I didn't think they would completely re-write their culture to do so.

#IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE FUTURE...

http://i.imgur.com/rgg81Te.jpg

Dreamspitter10/9/2015, 6:50:09 AM7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Of Gent Intent,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=o7Rb3tbI,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-09T05:39:15.121+0000)

  1. Is the old meteorcratic system of ranking changed to a patriarchy? If so (WHY). Why take the city-state that has more women representing it then men, women who are trained, professional soldiers and warriors, women with agency and backstories, and completely diminish their power in the setting? Why do this with DEMACIA? I get it, grey and grey and grey and no black and white and blah blah, but why make them so utterly archaeic in comparison to their old lore selves? Especially when they have been getting the shaft in nearly every event, none of their characters being able to do anything with impact without getting fucked over by Noxus or someone else? They haven't had a clear victory in ages, just ties and losses.

I thought NOXUS was the meritocracy of all meritocracies, where only strength, ability, and skill mattered -not race, class, gender, or who your parents were?

That aside, compulsory service is the reasoning behind Lux's old League judgment and I don't know what's going to happen with that.

Valaran Nara10/9/2015, 8:07:09 AM6 votes

The thing about the patriarchy...it was always there.

Fiora was head of a house because she had to take her honor back. Even in her old lore was it suggested that her ability to be at the top was purely because of birthrites. She ahd to FIGHT for them.

Lux's position doesn't even have power. She was forced into the military because her BROTHER was famous and a great soldier, and they wanted their daughter to not seem useless, so they tried to fashion her like him.

Vayne is the head of her house because she's the only one LEFT in it.

Shyvana is an outcast and made it in because JARVAN gave her a chance.

Quinn has her position because she proved her merit DESPITE being female.

Demacia was always a patriarchy. They just had more female champions.

Overlord Forte10/9/2015, 5:41:49 AM3 votes

The patriarchy implications in Fiora's expanded lore do need some light shed on them. I've taken to understanding them as something done by the 'noble houses', but the implications are far reaching in their society. It's a really dirty shotgun blast that can hit a lot of characters and not make it pretty in the process.

DragonShea10/12/2015, 12:51:17 PM3 votes

Demacia is getting it's dark side exposed It's about time it happened. Noxus as always being portrayed as the stereotypical bad guys but now it's all getting evened out. One also have to consider that Jarvin4 May be a maverick and doesn't care much about the ridge laws, especially since he helped Quinn with her crossbow. J4 may on the way of reforming Demacia but I don't think that it's noticeable yet, or else he is bending the rules to suit him. I Don't know. It's rather ambiguous right now.

GreenLore10/9/2015, 9:08:50 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Of Gent Intent,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=o7Rb3tbI,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-09T05:39:15.121+0000)

  1. So is compulsory military no longer a part of Demacian culture? Why was this changed when the lore, splash arts, and just about everything has been implying that Demacia is beset on all fronts while also beginning a new war with Noxus. It makes no real sense that someone would want their daughter to play with dolls and dresses if they were destined for the army.

Maybe nobles(or women) are an exception here? I mean Fiora was more or less raised to be a tool for political marriage,so it wouldn't surprise me if noble women like that could be an exception.

The compulsory military always made little sense to me,I mean does Sona look like she was/is going to the military?Quinns lore also sounds more like she joined willingly. Though they might have compulsory military services in times of dire need.

  1. Is the old meteorcratic system of ranking changed to a patriarchy? If so (WHY). Why take the city-state that has more women representing it then men, women who are trained, professional soldiers and warriors, women with agency and backstories, and completely diminish their power in the setting? Why do this with DEMACIA? I get it, grey and grey and grey and no black and white and blah blah, but why make them so utterly archaeic in comparison to their old lore selves? Especially when they have been getting the shaft in nearly every event, none of their characters being able to do anything with impact without getting fucked over by Noxus or someone else? They haven't had a clear victory in ages, just ties and losses.

While demacia has many female champs,how many of those are actually in some kind of leader position?Right the only one is Fiora. Vayne is the head of her house because everyone else is dead,Sona is a noble,but not in the military,quinn might be exceptionally skillfull,but still has a rather low rank,shyvana is in a similar position. The only other woman who has some kind of political status is poppy who is an ambassador. Its not that they see women as simply inferior,just that women are usually not seen as leader figures and that sometimes noble women are supposed to be married off to an influental suitor.

  1. Is Demacia now going to become unbearably draconic? Where an entire family is exiled due to one man's crime? Where a woman has no right to refuse a suitor? Where everything is settled with duels to the death? Is the constitutional monarchy that used to be in place gone? I had this very real concern a while ago when Ekko came out and I could see that they wanted to muddle up the morality of the setting. And I was guessing that they were going to give Demacia some new fatal flaw. But I didn't think they would completely re-write their culture to do so.

Demacia was always said to be rather draconic when it came to stuff like honor and justice,its just that this was always kind of an informed attribute of them that we never saw in the lore. While I agree that a whole noble family getting exiled for one incident is kinda over the top,it was already a part in fioras old lore that duels to the death are not an uncommon way to handle these things.(Fiora herself threatened to kill her father in the old lore)

All in all I'm very, VERY unhappy with the changes made to Demacia. This isn't "grey", especially considering how misogyny is viewed today. This is an unrepentant splash of black taking over sensible established lore.

Now you are seeing the world in a black&white view. Yes Demacias system isn't all good,but just because there is some bad stuff in it doesn't mean the whole country is suddenly evil. Grey happens if you mix black&white.

I'd really like a Rioter to explain the decision here. I'm fine with Demacia being grey, but retconning their noble and optimistic system where your ability decided your destiny, rather than birth or gender into a samey and needlessly generic patriarchy.

Uhm what? This was never the case in demacia(except for the gender roles) I mean seriously thats the one thing that has always been criticized about demacia,that your birth determines what you can become and what not. All the generals(and I guess also all the knights) in demacia are nobles,while everyone who isn't a noble has no chance of becoming a general. Thats pretty much the one thing where noxus is the nicer city state,because in the noxian military your skill is the important thing,not your lineage.

All Might Jr10/9/2015, 5:47:45 PM1 votes

It really doesn't help that the lore team is quite simply the most quiet of pretty much any team. Only really showing up in Q&As and leaving us dry 99% of the time.

Hyrum Graff10/10/2015, 1:49:29 AM1 votes

I don't think Demacia is black now, as you seem to imply.

However, I do think that Riot's going the wrong way about showing the grey. I'd rather see them show grey by showing GREY. Not by showing black and white in completely separate places.

It isn't, "Demacia has upsides and also downsides," it's, "Demacia's upsides ARE its downsides."

Defin8lyNotScott10/12/2015, 4:13:03 PM1 votes

I heartily agree that Demacia had enough dark aspects that they didn't need to add sexism to the mix. I don't mind so much exploring the draconian aspects of Demacian law, since I was always under the impression that their ""zero-tolerance" moral code" would be incredibly harsh, but there is so little evidence of patriarchy previous to this new lore that it does irk me. Your statement about it being "generic" hits right on target for me. I was really enjoying a fantasy world WITHOUT the (ever-present) patriarchal overtones you see in so many world-settings. Cry "historical accuracy" all you want. If I can believe in magic, and dragons, and people who spin without getting dizzy, I can believe in a medieval style country that lacks sexism.

Jeddy01710/9/2015, 5:54:58 AM1 votes

Come on Jaredan & the lore people!This is released content.You guys should be willing to talk about this.