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My problems with new! Taric

Talos of Altmora··12 votes·11,226 views
My problems with Targon

This is an expansion of my arguments on that link on everyone's favorite, outrageously beautiful man named Taric. Let me be absolutely clear that I hate new Targon, so that may or may not cloud my judgements on him, but I will try to be fair here.

So, Taric was once a high-ranking Demacian who viewed himself as a protector, but he viewed the protection of all life as his duty. Now, I can admire him for that, but then the his lore says that this trait made him abandon military drills and such for things like a magical beasts and a bard's song. While in my original post I accidently read it as he literally abandoned his comrades, ( my mistake, I will be sure to correct that) but that still shows a rather remarkable laxity for a Demaican (For those not in the know, Demacia used to require mandatory military service and used to indoctrinate it's warriors in it's moral superiority, but if Taric can goof off like that, then they're standards must of dropped.) Now, given that Taric has proven himself to have some form of ADD you'd think he'd never get that high a rank that he was implied to have. Turns out that Garen was one of his friends that kept him in a high position, and because of Taric's screwed priorities, even Garen couldn't save him from being demoted.

So, he was sent with a bunch of new recruits to an out-of-the-way fortress. After a few days, Taric decided that everything was fine, he went off to look at the ruins for a day. He sent all of his men to rest (they never give us a number, so we have to assume there was enough of them to properly defend the fort without being a drain on resources, so I'd wager around 10-20men? I'm not exactly an expert on this) When he gets back, he finds them slaughtered to the last man. What really annoys me was that they say the void creatures did his to them while they slept. (This raises many questions on it's own, but my biggest problem is that the void creatures we know of tend to be very big and very loud, so unless Khazix or another member of his species was responsible, they should have noticed something instead of continuing to sleep.)

So it's here when he was sent to Mount Targon as a punishment (apparently Targon s a dumping ground for those who fail Demacia) he climbs and is faced with Illusions of the world of Runeterra and all sorts of horrible fates that could befall the world and the things he loves. After he faces these trials, he meets the Aspect of the Protector, apparently he was responsible for bringing him to this point. (And by implication, the death of everyone at the fort Taric was garrisoned at.) He aspects and he is given the power of the Power of the protector. Now, he fights the void! (as I've said in my original post, Kassadin who?)

So, If we cut to the meat of it, Taric's backstory is Galio's with more details. A noble stalwart protector (although in Taric's case, he abandons his duty to goof off while Galio would never do that,) who failed once and seeks atonement. (See Headbiter's post there for the finer problems) So, while I like this new Taric, I feel that the aspect he has in him is possibly the stupidest person in the entire League of legends universe. One, he picked possibly the worst person for the job, a man who has proven himself to be very incompetent in his duty. While he certainly is strong, he's lacking in the brains department. Two, to groom him into his Flesh Coat avatar, he is implied to have ruined Taric's life and is implied to have killed his men. (And given that the aspects have done this before, he's probably done this hundreds of times, meaning he was a pretty high body count on him.) Some protector!

So, there is my thoughts on New Taric's lore. Please tell me your thoughts and upvote. if you don't like either of my post, feel free to down vote and post your problems in the comments. I look forward in seeing what you have to say.

92 Comments

Lovely Pants9 votes

Working back more from the end of the post first to discuss the wider lore issues:

-Similarities to Galio's original lore begin and end with "Demacian protector who has failed their mission"

I would just as soon complain that Zilean, or heck, even Urgot share similar plot points of grief/restoring honor. It's not like it's a common enough thread for me to bat an eye at personally and there's plenty of room to work around that single similarity. The events leading up to and following that point and the way each character contributed and reacts to them are completely different. Galio's story there is that of a loyal soldier who falls into despair at his own powerlessness. Taric's is that of a rebellious outcast whose friction with the system eventually causes him to make a grave error.

-I agree it is awkward now that Targon is the prominent gate between this plane and the void and mention of long-standing void related folks like Kassadin and Shurima in general has fallen to the wayside.

This might be made less of a neck-wrenching change if we're simply looking at the Targon/void conflict as another frontier of a global war with the void that seems to be creeping more prominently into rewritten lore, but it seems to shave away from the importance of Shurima as THE major location of void conflict and that whole section of lore continues to be left in the lurch.

-Reading and rereading what little is given to us about "The Protector," I have to judge that you have a lot of misconceptions.

There's nothing that implies he actually guided Taric to the mountain itself. It could be guessed that the aspects of Targon supply whatever trials await those once they come to the mountain, though this is also speculation on my part. I think a greater theme of Targon is that it tends to confront those who have already displayed their willpower and character instead of necessarily grooming the host.

As for the worthiness of Taric to wear the mantle of the protector, I don't think the majority of his lore highlights his incompetence in that role. His dereliction of duty at his final outpost with Demacia represents Taric at the lowest point in his life, I would say. He gets by with his actions in Demacian service previously precisely because he is something of a battle prodigy who is in fact better serving his goals as a protector by playing loose with the rules of Demacia, and as long as he continues to serve them well it's a waste to throw away that talent completely. His final mistake might be seen as a result of growing resentment and arrogance in him after years that cause him to lose sight of his most important duty, swiftly tempered by the consequences. It's not as though his actions in that case were completely unreasonable, as neither his superiors or Taric could have expected the Void Inquisition, but the fact that he was basically tasked with guarding the helpless and gave anything less than complete diligence to this task would be the sticking point for Taric's own code.

Talos of Altmora3 votes

"of the mantle that he had unknowingly been preparing for with every decision that brought him to the top of the mountain." The wording implies that The Protector has been leading him to this point in his life, Also, I have read the other lores and my original post that I have linked on this page, The Aspects DO change the people they inhabit. Some like the Protect groom their champions, other just shove themselves up there asses into their very being, changing them so the aspect feels more at home or something, and With Pantheon, He'll just eject the soul from the body and take it for itself.

I actually like that he tries to make up for his mistakes, but that angle is dropped when the aspect gets into him. He is now vindicated. In the next part of the story, he tries to stop Demacia and Noxus from staring a battle not to stop the loss of human life, but because a single flower that is one of a kind is there and needs to be protected. The Implication I get is that he would gladly let these people die, as long as that flower is safe. Whuch I don't know if it's him or the aspect that I have a problem with.

As for the void, it's been heavily implied that something in the void needs Malzy to bring the worlds closer together for the kind of void invasions they are dealing with now. Malzy and Kassadin both look stupid, Malzy not noticing his apocalyptic wet-dream coming true in Targon, and Kassadin and the Preservers of Valoran seem to be wilding their thumbs and doing nothing.

I see your point about Galio and Taric, but I am comparing them because they have a similar origin point, a similar goal, and a similar concept of redemption. I admit it is a simplification, but it still works. Galio ultimately comes across as a better person because he will make sure none will die under his watch again, Taric comes across as beyond humanity, willing to protect us, but becoming similar to bard in that he will only do it if it will serve the greater good. again, at least that's as far as I can tell, and if you have any information, please put it in your reply.

RiotRiotJaredan17 votes

[{quoted}](name=Talos of Altmora,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=mT8EJYUF,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-07T14:38:15.572+0000)

"of the mantle that he had unknowingly been preparing for with every decision that brought him to the top of the mountain." The wording implies that The Protector has been leading him to this point in his life, Also, I have read the other lores and my original post that I have linked on this page, The Aspects DO change the people they inhabit. Some like the Protect groom their champions, other just shove themselves up there asses into their very being, changing them so the aspect feels more at home or something, and With Pantheon, He'll just eject the soul from the body and take it for itself.

I prefer to let discussion run on its own (and it's great to see such interesting speculation in just this thread alone) but just for clarity on one point, 'every decision' speaks to those made by Taric, he made his own path that led to Targon, he wasn't being influenced by the Aspect of the Protector his whole life. The Aspect tested him once it sensed Taric's potential. Most people climbing Targon are killed outright by such mundane things as hypothermia, altitude sickness and exposure. Taric was worth testing, and, showing just how determined and honorable he is, passed that test.

For example, being told to climb Targon by Demacia's main authority is an expression, something that means "leave Demacia and die outside its walls." It's a banishment. Virtually no-one actually goes there once they've been given the punishment, they go find somewhere they can live out their days under the ignominy of being an outcast. Demacia sees itself very highly, so the idea of no longer being able to live as a Demacian is a terrible punishment. However, Taric, so guilt-ridden for what happened, wants to prove his honor by keeping his word in a very literal way: he will climb Targon, though it will almost certainly kill him in doing so. He does this to prove he is worthy of his oath, and to honor those who fell because of him. In other words, his choice leads him physically and emotionally where he is when he meets the Protector, the Protector didn't make him do it.

Stars Shaper4 votes

My only concern about the Bio is that there is nearly to none focus on him being a noble/gallant man/knight and a lot more about him being a "different" kind of man. I don't find it as being out of place, the short (really short) story was enough and well written about him trasuring each life while not being a mere ambientalist. The problem is that he feels more like a gardeneron a knight duty in his days before the climb, a really honorable one but really just a gardener.

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Ah, well said. I am sorry about the confusion, but may I suggest rewording it then? Because it kind of fits with what I know and Theorized on the aspects (please also see the other thread I linked sir, because maybe you can clear up and see the discussions there as well, it's far more interesting because it encompasses all of new!Targon.) I mean, the aspects in the lore have not exactly made themselves seem very... good. I mean, new!Pantheon took over Aterus's body, Linda (again, see the other thread) had her "KILL THE HERETIC!" stance changed when she got the aspect shoved into her. so please pardon my confusion regarding that.

What I'm saying is that the aspects seem to be untrustworthy, and that gives credence to my pet theory that the aspect arranged for all of this to happen. I think the wording should be changed to better reflect that. Thank you for replying to this, first time this has happen to one of my threads.

RiotRiotJaredan9 votes

"unknowing" only means that Taric had no idea that what he was doing would lead to what he became. I think that's an OK connotation to have. If you believe that Targon takes the agency away from everyone, then I understand why you would interpret it the way you did. I'd just ask you let the story play out. Some of the characters have a long way to go yet and we don't want to write the entirety of their arc in their introduction.

Leona's stance changed when she realized that her teachings (some might say indoctrination) weren't as valid as she once thought. Her more violent approach earlier was a moment that shows someone who has lost her way because of how she has been taught to see the world around her.

Her change allowed her to see things clearly, from a different perspective, essentially empowering her to see the truth of what mattered to her. One might say it allowed her to see the world much as she did when she spared someone she shouldn't have, which was the moment that set her toward being imbued with that power. Instead of this making all the Aspects seem untrustworthy, I personally think Leona (as well as Taric) is an example of an an Aspect being very keyed into the truth of who they are, even if Leona had lost her way, as she realizes when she needs to see Diana.

As with Diana and Pantheon, Leona is beginning her journey and we've included personality elements from the original take on her, though some of those characteristics are meant to come to the forefront overtime. They're hinted at in the piece at times rather than explicitly stated (because we want to spend time developing her character). I know you found that unsatisfying, and I'm sorry that's the case. Hopefully you will see more of what you envision Leona to be in the stories that continue after we've now set the new stage.

I have read through all of the other thread and I think the discussion is very interesting, though it's a shame that things got as heated and personal as they did. I would just say that the main way we have moved from our old style of character and storytelling is that we don't want to completely sum up the totalilty of a character in one hit. In the introductory text, we want to show who they are at whatever point of the journey they are on right now, how they got to the present, show them in 'action' in the present, and hint toward possibilities for them in the future. We then want to pay off those possibilities in stories.

We had a bad problem with setting things up and never paying them off, so I absolutely understand a mistrust that things will pay off or that you should look beyond anything but the introductory text for the Champ. It's our job, and by that I mean Narrative, the Product Teams we work on, and Riot's in general, to get more story to you to show what that looks like and earn the trust to move forward.

And yeah, Atreus's story isn't done either.

Talos of Altmora5 votes

I read what you have written, and to be honest, what you wrote is not targon. It's got a lot of potential sure, but the old story had so much you could have built up on. Still, as much as I agree with you... These guys have the same names, but the feel I get from them are so far off from the characters I loved that.

The problem is sir that After reading these stories, unless you somehow retcon it back into it's original stuff (or write yourself out of it, I would prefer this.) back into it's old set up, I want nothing to do with Targon, because as these are not the characters I loves, I don't care what happens to them. To give you an Idea, after I finished I was furious, I had Pantheon deleted from my account and tried to get Leona and Diana's skins refunded (because I have skins for them and thus they are worth a lot more.) I just can't enjoy them anymore as characters. If I would compare this to a book, it's like I read the first chapter to a relaunch of my favorite series, but they changed so many things and changed the characters so drastically it mad me toss it aside.

Anyways, I am really sorry to say this sir, but as I have already said, I don't care what happens to them. I don't like the changes you have made, especially to Leona and Pantheon. They are so different and come across so horribly that I hope Sol destroys them, along with every other piece of Targon. I know that sounds extreme and Harsh, but its how I feel.

I hope those who like the new!Targon can get something out of it but as for me? I never want to hear from Targon again.

RiotRiotJaredan4 votes

I'm sorry you feel that way. Hopefully there will be other things you see coming up that excite you.

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

While I can't speak for Talos, I played the game for Pantheon.

After seeing what happened to him and the one story I actually was invested in it really just makes you feel apathetic toward whatever else was happening in the world.

InHaruhiWeTrust4 votes

have to agree with OP. Diana was my favorite character in this game. her story really resonated with me on a personal level, since like her i grew up surrounded by people who believed very differently from me and would treat me horribly if i ever said what i believed. i grew up having to hide a part of myself and was betrayed by someone in my own family who i thought i could trust. when i read her lore it brought me to tears. her pain, her anger, i knew very well. When i got to the part in her lore where she lashed out and killed elders, it was liberating in a way. even though i would never do something like that myself, i could painfully understand the urge to fight back against the people who are hurting you. when she killed the elders it was justified, but she killed them out of pure hatred and let that hate control her even after those who had wronged her were gone becoming the very thing she hated. it's a very tragic yet beautiful story especially for those like me that share similar circumstances. her new story lacks the heart of her original lore and removed alot of what made her relatable. you took away her agency with the addition of the aspects, you took away her frustation and pain, the essence of what made her the "scorn" of the moon. even worse was that there was no reason to do so. her old lore and character could have easily been written into this new story. i was very upset when you took the character i loved from me, but i guess it's already been done.

Talos of Altmora5 votes

Pantheon was one of my first champions. I used to use him as my main. I loved everything about him, and while I didn't get Leona and Diana until later, it was only because I didn't think I could play the roles they were designed for. ( I'm far more versatile now) You say I can be more excited about things in the future, well, after what you have done to Targon, I'm more freighted by what you'll do.

I mean, I love all of the settings. I love Ionia, Demacia, Noxus, Bandle City, Zaun, Piltover and nearly everywhere else. Now, I am worried for them. Are you going to make Vi and Caityn corrupt cops? Make Shyvana, the first character I have ever played and thus particularly attached to, lose her strong, gruff attitude? Are you going to make Swain so cartonishly evil that even Veiger thinks he's going to far? After seeing new! Targon, I won't be surprised if any of this happens.

At the same time sir, I sincerely hope you take our criticisms to heart. I understand people upset about Shurima, but I wasn't here for that. Now that I now share a similar experience with them, I can see their point. When Targon's lore event was first announced, I was excited. I thought you were going to set up a Burning Tides Type of story were you built upon the past lore, but instead, we have a setting that barely has any similarities with the old. You say Linda would become more inline with the old one over time. Well, the old Leona is, as I have said, as moral and compassionate as Braum and Soraka. This new one is nowhere near that level. Having a magical space-parasite shoved into her does not make me think she is getting anywhere close to the same nobleness Leona once had.

Heck, the first thing I did after I read the old lore is ask for a refund. I didn't have any refund credits, but I had to do something, I tried to do literally anything but delete them, but ultimately resulted in me deleting Pantheon from my account, and swearing never to play Diana and Leona (because I have skins for them, so they are not worth deleting). Seriously, during that pod-cast that you linked, the writers said that reading the lore should make we want to play these champions. If that was their goal, then they have failed, I don't know about my fellow players, but as I have said, unless this aspect thing is retconed (or written out of the lore), then count me out of Targon.

Anyways, I think I have said my peace. Thank you again for commenting on this post. It at least shows me riot is willing to listen.

Hellioning7 votes

if Atreus' story isn't done either, why did you type

'The Pantheon Aspect had obliterated his personality, memories and emotions. Atreus’s flesh was nothing but a shell inhabited by the supernatural Aspect of War; his mortal soul had joined those of the ancestors in the celestial afterlife.'

in the lore? If you write a definite statement like that, it's going to be taken as a definite statement.

(Also, you really need to find a better way to get to that lore piece. I had to go 12 pages deep into news to find the link to the Targon stuff; Panth's champ bio just has his short form.)

GreenLore1 votes

Probably because thats what usually happens based on previous what happened to the previous pantheons.

But there can always be exceptions;).

Though I agree that they went a bit too far with explaining how dead atreus is.

Also you can access all the targon lores on the main page,the thing on top lists 4 of the more recent news and the targon-one is one of them(though it likely will be harder to find once it gets older)

Hellioning1 votes

If it was something like 'Atreus' family grieved, for no past host of Pantheon ever returned, so they treated him like he was dead,' that'd be one thing. But the fact that the supposedly unbiased narrator felt the need to point out how dead he is led me to believe that he was dead.

(And I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't see the Targon stuff anywhere, besides the Taric comic.)

Headbiter1 votes

Google "Explore Mount Targon".

As I pointed out to Jaredan in another thread, the site design is slightly rubbish, so it's really hard if not impossible to find older content via the site itself, so your best approach really is taking the google-route.

Hellioning2 votes

I wouldn't say that the site is slightly rubbish.

It's very rubbish.

Headbiter2 votes

People say I'm too rude.

I now try to lie be more polite.

RiotRiotJaredan7 votes

It's definitive as it is now. Things change as characters grow and stories happen.

And yeah, Panth's bio and the rest of his intro hit some other peculiarities with the main web page. Something else that's in process of being fixed.

It's a good job my hair grows back quickly.

Hellioning4 votes

Really? People come back to life as characters grow and stories happen?

I mean, I'm a comic book fan, so I'm not exactly surprised here. But I thought that you guys were less likely to play that game.

Ralanr2 votes

For all we know, nobody actually knows what happens to the souls of those Pantheon inhabits. The vessels probably die long before anyone can figure anything out and he's not the kind of person to be interviewed.

It's not impossible that people just made an assumption and stuck with it.

Hellioning4 votes

I'm not saying that Atreus revealing himself to be alive in some form is impossible. But I'm saying that the narrative made sure to point out, very clearly, Pantheon subsumes the personalities of the people it inhabits. I'm just going off what was written.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

{quoted}

For all we know, nobody actually knows what happens to the souls of those Pantheon inhabits. The vessels probably die long before anyone can figure anything out and he's not the kind of person to be interviewed.

It's not impossible that people just made an assumption and stuck with it.

Yes, but the lore isn't written as "here are some assumptions about the character as told by Jim-Bob the Great Curator of Targon, as recorded in his Histories of that Mountain that is Important to Gods for Some Reason" it's presented as a list of facts about the champion. Which makes sense, because its purpose is to inform the audience what the champion Pantheon in LoL is.

There is a time and a place to put creative uses of an unreliable narrator. But, I would argue, the general introduction to a character in a fighting game is probably not that place. Now, maybe if the writer of said introduction is some fantastic literary genius, they could maybe pull that off. But, not seeing the finished product here, what we've so far got is a list of seeming facts and then an outside promise that at least one thing in the list of said facts is wrong. Which just adds to the seeming disjointed strangeness of the Targon lore.

Ashen Rider2 votes

{quoted}

It's a good job my hair grows back quickly.

What?

RiotRiotJaredan6 votes

Tech issues make me want to pull my hair out.

Headbiter3 votes

Yeah, have to go with Hellioning here. I know comic books are a massive thing in the states but can we please avoid the narrative pitfalls epidemic to that genre? Like, turning death into a minor inconvenience, masquerading retcons as "surprising twists" and (please no) multiverse-theory?

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Well, the skins are now alternate universe versions of the characters, so the multiverse theory is technically canon (even if they don't focus of it)

Headbiter2 votes

I wouldn't really equate the existence of a joke- or "what if"-outfit with the establishment of an actual multiverse. I sincerely doubt that there will ever be a (serious) writing effort that lets Kassadin fight alongside "Definetly not Blitzcrank". Especially that quite some skins are related to real life concepts, events or holidays.

Not that I want to give those guys any ideas....

Strawberrycocoa1 votes

This would imply that the Pantheon we now know, has (retroactively of course) always BEEN the Aspect of War, and we've simply never known Atreus.

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Uh, no. Nothing in Panth's old lore suggested that he climbed the mountain and got taken-over by a space-parasite. He was a normal, if very badass, warrior passonate about his culture. This new lore feels like the lore team got three different puzzles and put them together.

Ralanr3 votes

{quoted}

And yeah, Atreus's story isn't done either.

Damn well better not be. If Atreus could climb mount Targon, then he can certainly break free from this spirit using his body.

I can't say I know what you all are doing, but I think Pantheon might have bit off more than he could chew with Atreus.

Warlord Dienekes4 votes

But, the Aspects do take agency away from people. That's been firmly established in what was written.

The most dramatic example is Pantheon, obviously, who it specifically says " The Pantheon Aspect had obliterated his personality, memories and emotions. Atreus’s flesh was nothing but a shell inhabited by the supernatural Aspect of War; his mortal soul had joined those of the ancestors in the celestial afterlife."

This is the first Lore of the bunch, this sets the tone for the rest of the lores, going under the assumption that people generally read in order (unless of course they have a specific attachment to one champion or another, in which case they would likely read that one first). This firmly establishes that the Aspects can control their host up to and including the point of completely obliterating the original soul.

So, then when we get to Leona's lore and she completely changes from wanting to murder someone to needing them, apparently ignoring that their target had just murdered all of those that she had spent her life protecting, then yeah, it looks like she has some of that mind-wiping magic going into her.

Also, since you're here, would you mind if I asked you a question on how Targon was decided to be developed in the way it was developed? I had a different thread set up on a related topic that just got downvoted. I understand if you're too busy of course.

RiotRiotJaredan4 votes

Perhaps the prespective may have been initially skewed in one direction because of Panth, but each Champion is different in how the Aspect effects them. I hope we've established that across the spread of releasing Pantheon, Leona, Diana, and Taric.

In regard to the thinking behind Targon, I don't know if you've listened to the podcast that Ant in Oz and Graham McNeill did a little while back? They go into Targon more in-depth than I can at the moment. You can find it here.

Warlord Dienekes4 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps the prespective may have been initially skewed in one direction because of Panth, but each Champion is different in how the Aspect effects them. I hope we've established that across the spread of releasing Pantheon, Leona, Diana, and Taric.

In regard to the thinking behind Targon, I don't know if you've listened to the podcast that Ant in Oz and Graham McNeill did a little while back? They go into Targon more in-depth than I can at the moment. You can find it here.

Yeah I listened to it. That's where I first heard the evolution not revolution line. And yet, here we are with a mystical body-hopping celestial space parasite somehow considered an evolutionary step from a guy whose main characteristics were: a spartan, a childhood friend of Leona, and the one from Targon who wasn't magic (i.e. The cool one).

It does explain the idea of where Targon as a place of pilgrimage comes from, but doesn't explain at all how that in any way led them to being possessed by not gods as originally said, but some intergalactic empire of slavers. Which is the strangest leap that really has me so puzzled and just jarred out of the story.

Solidair31 votes

So I read the Insights blog on Taric and I see it's still Taric, just brought to the future. Does this mean he is still an alien?

Talos of Altmora3 votes

No, he's a native of runeterra... who had an alien shoved into his being.

RiotRiotJaredan5 votes

He's Demacian, not alien.

Hellioning3 votes

I think you need to read that comment again, Jaredan. Taric is 'a native of Runeterra', IE a Demacian, who had an 'alien', the Aspect, shoved into his being.

RiotRiotJaredan4 votes

Taric as he was (and mainly still is) is Demacian. I was speaking to his origin, apologies for the confusion.

patmax171 votes

Sorry, just to be sure I got it right

Old Taric was an alien who lived in Demacia New Taric is born a Demacia, who ascended (and I guess now he doesn't really have a home? I imagine him just going around Runeterra/Valoran where he is needed)

RiotRiotJaredan1 votes

That's pretty much correct.

Warlord Dienekes1 votes

{quoted}

That's pretty much correct.

Hello again, and once more, sorry to bother you with a question. But this one isn't about grand concepts of lore development, but a more technical one.

How old are Atreus, Leona, and Diana (and I guess, also Taric) in relation to each other? Because I was thinking about the lores again, and it seemed odd that Atreus had to duel Leona (which sort of implied they were roughly the same age, since if she had to fight a child that she couldn't beat him is hilarious, and kind of awesome). But, then she goes off to live with the Solari and manages to become the leader of the Ra-Horak while Atreus is still in the Rakkor equivalent of the agoge. Just guessing that the warrior rites are finished somewhere between ages 16-20, that would mean Leona either was much older than Atreus, or she skyrocketed up to become the leaders of the warrior-band when she was still in her teens to early twenties.

Thank you, for your help.

Star Guardían1 votes

I'd like to address a few points you've made. Firstly, while Pantheon did essentially shove Atreus out of his own body, keep in mind the we've only received his introductory bio and colour text. There's still lots of room for development and story telling. Take for example Graves and TF's introductory bios and colour texts. We didn't actually get that much information from them. Rather, they were used to set that for these characters and the world they inhabit. The real fun came later during Burning Tides where we got to see more character development and story. As for Pantheon/Atreus, I personally think we'll see an internal struggle between them that will result in some sort of compromise with Atreus retaining some of his autonomy. (Keep in mind this is just my speculation) regardless, this isn't the last we've seen of Atreus. In other words, when you read the introductory bio and colour texts, keep in mind that they're just that: introductory.

Secondly, I seriously don't know how you're getting a "kill the heretic" vibe from Leona's colour text or bio. The reason why Leona was hunting down Diana was because she killed the elders. Presumably, Leona at least had some relationship with the elders, so it was kind of a personal revenge and as well as her duty to bring justice to the murderer of her her role models. She wasn't hunting her down because she was a heretic.

Lastly, it wasn't the aspect that just suddenly changed Leona's mind. The aspect gave her information about the truth of the Solari and Lunari and Leona decided to come to her own conclusion and put her dispute aside to work with Diana for a greater goal. Also, she didn't just stop being angry at Diana, she's definitely going to be mad at Diana when they meet, but she has no choice other than to work with Diana at this point to presumably avoided whatever the aspect showed her. She made that decision, the aspect didn't just take over her agency. That is why her "kill the heretic" (not really) attitude "suddenly" change.

Take a re-read of Pantheon, Leona and Diana's lore and try and view it from a different perspective.

Talos of Altmora1 votes

I would love to, but they just kind of piss me off because of my biases. I understand what you say, but I really, really think is was a step in the wrong direction for the lore team and these characters in general. And yes, she was, that was very clear on her lore's part given her position on the Ra-Horak. I know it's introductory, but from what I got out of it, I don't want to read the rest of the story.

In any case, I'm glad you're getting something out of it that I just can't see. I hope you enjoy it.

Star Guardían2 votes

Fair enough, we all have our tastes.

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

{quoted}

I'd like to address a few points you've made. Firstly, while Pantheon did essentially shove Atreus out of his own body, keep in mind the we've only received his introductory bio and colour text. There's still lots of room for development and story telling. Take for example Graves and TF's introductory bios and colour texts. We didn't actually get that much information from them. Rather, they were used to set that for these characters and the world they inhabit. The real fun came later during Burning Tides where we got to see more character development and story. As for Pantheon/Atreus, I personally think we'll see an internal struggle between them that will result in some sort of compromise with Atreus retaining some of his autonomy. (Keep in mind this is just my speculation) regardless, this isn't the last we've seen of Atreus. In other words, when you read the introductory bio and colour texts, keep in mind that they're just that: introductory.

Secondly, I seriously don't know how you're getting a "kill the heretic" vibe from Leona's colour text or bio. The reason why Leona was hunting down Diana was because she killed the elders. Presumably, Leona at least had some relationship with the elders, so it was kind of a personal revenge and as well as her duty to bring justice to the murderer of her her role models. She wasn't hunting her down because she was a heretic.

Lastly, it wasn't the aspect that just suddenly changed Leona's mind. The aspect gave her information about the truth of the Solari and Lunari and Leona decided to come to her own conclusion and put her dispute aside to work with Diana for a greater goal. Also, she didn't just stop being angry at Diana, she's definitely going to be mad at Diana when they meet, but she has no choice other than to work with Diana at this point to presumably avoided whatever the aspect showed her. She made that decision, the aspect didn't just take over her agency. That is why her "kill the heretic" (not really) attitude "suddenly" change.

Take a re-read of Pantheon, Leona and Diana's lore and try and view it from a different perspective.

Or, in my hope for the development. Atreus shoves Pantheon out of his body completely, gives all the celestial Targonians the finger, for being a bunch of enslaving assholes, tells them to take their civil war and problems with Sol off Runeterra where it has no business, and continues being a normal badass for the Rakkor like he was before the whole celestial space empire business suddenly got shoved into his lore.

Also, there is a definite kill the heretic vibe in Leona's lore.

From the lore:

"Presented to the elders, Diana spoke of the Lunari, an ancient and proscribed faith that venerated the moon, and how all the truths the Solari clung to were incomplete. She described a realm beyond the mountaintop, a place where the sun and moon were not enemies, where new truths could show them fresh ways to look at the world. Leona felt her anger build with every word Diana spoke, and when the elders rejected her words and named her a blasphemer, Leona knew it would be her blade that ended the heretic’s life. "

That's before Diana kills anyone. She is giving her views of the Lunari, and Leona is seething with rage as Diana speaks and is thinking about killing her solely for her beliefs.

Then the murder of the elders happens.

Talos of Altmora2 votes

Now THAT is something I want to see!

Lovely Pants1 votes

"The Protector spoke of the truths Taric had known his entire life, and of the mantle that he had unknowingly been preparing for with every decision that brought him to the top of the mountain.

I think perhaps there could be some clarification, but this sentence only puts the action on Taric. As you say, it seems odd for a protector to arrange for slaughter, much less by the very void creatures it is attempting to keep at bay, as a means to test their potential host. Given no direct evidence towards that I wouldn't reach to that conclusion.

I recognize that the aspects do change their hosts in some manner, Pantheon's possession being the most extreme whereas Taric's enlightenment probably being much less so, but this seems to only be granted to the host after they've already directed their own wills to the aspect's goals.

Edit: Took so long to formulate my answer I got sniped by a red. Oh well.

I don't think Taric is vindicated of his past failures. Looking at the comic preview, it seems clear that he never believes he can fully atone. However, he has a greater purpose than his own redemption.

This excerpt is important from the snapshot:

"The loss of life will be immense, but I cannot save those who seek their own destruction. All those sons, all those fathers, all those futures lost. Demacians and Noxians, ever at each other’s throats, magnetically drawn to one another by something lesser than both."

This doesn't indicate that Taric is happy to let these soldiers kill each other, but he has no place to take sides in their conflict here. Taric probably isn't as detached from mortal morality as a character like Bard. I imagine if the same choice was between letting soldiers slaughter an uninvolved civilian over a flower that is the last of its kind he would probably still save that civilian.

As for whether Galio or Taric are better persons for what they value, that's a fierce debate on morality to be had. Galio is absolutely loyal to his people. He would kill any number of Noxians to save a Demacian soldier, or otherwise uphold the ideals of Demacia and insure the future safety of the nation. Taric's moral choices are complicated by the fact that he isn't likely to weigh the life of a Demcian over that of a Noxian in a vacuum. He won't choose to condemn one for the sake of the other unless that one shows greater worth towards the fate of the world, perhaps. Given that we're trending away from "scary evil Noxians, raar!" it's not that simple of a choice for him.

That's my view of it, at least.

Talos of Altmora1 votes

Well, here's the thing about words, someone could take away one message, and someone else can take away another. So that's why it seems to me that this "Aspect" planned for this, because this led to taric climbing the mountain in the first place. I mean, I agree with the rest of your post, but still these aspects kind of mess up these characters for me.

Lovely Pants4 votes

Honestly, I also think Targonians from Spaaaace! (TM) and the whole aspect thing is not exactly the best thing for the direction of Targon's lore, which already had some functioning and reasonably well-formed structures with the cult conflict that didn't really need all the mystical stuff to work. Taric's lore is the only one I think actually benefits from the way Aspects work, whereas Leona and Diana come across as more ambivalent changes and Pantheon's really stumbles at the goal post for me.

Warlord Dienekes4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=mT8EJYUF,comment-id=00010000000100010000,timestamp=2016-04-07T16:45:05.117+0000)

Honestly, I also think Targonians from Spaaaace! (TM) and the whole aspect thing is not exactly the best thing for the direction of Targon's lore, which already had some functioning and reasonably well-formed structures with the cult conflict that didn't really need all the mystical stuff to work. Taric's lore is the only one I think actually benefits from the way Aspects work, whereas Leona and Diana come across as more ambivalent changes and Pantheon's really stumbles at the goal post for me.

I've mentioned before the Space Empire getting shoved into the tail end of each of the lores comes across as out of place and just strange. If the Aspects were actually what we were led to believe originally they are would be one thing (even if that thing I'd still not particularly like), but when we find out that no, they're not gods, they're space parasites that inhabit hosts and apparently enslaved Sol it just comes out of left field as though someone was trying to stitch two (or three) completely unconnected stories that were already written and finished together.

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