Does anyone else find the whole "Demacia suddenly hates all mages" thing unbelievable?

Extrasolar·Apr 2, 2017·10 votes·5,862 views

So wait, the new Galio lore has Demacia suddenly hating mages simply for their existence? Um...what.

Runeterra is a world absolutely full of magic and magic users in all shapes and forms. Sure, there's some evil magic users, but there's just as many good- or neutral-aligned magic users. Like... Why does Demacia suddenly hate them all? Do they hate Ionia for being very magical in nature? Do they suddenly despite Piltover for its prevalent use of Hextech, which is a fusion of magic and technology? Like...that seems ridiculous and arbitrary, especially in the context it's in.

What about all the magic users that have done amazing, good things for the world? Ionia's peaceful elders, all the super cool Hextech technology? Would someone like Ezreal be tarred and feathered if he visited Demacia, despite being a well-meaning explorer with tons of knowledge to share, just because he happens to be a mage and has a magical artifact?

So you're saying that Demacia literally has no population of mages that isn't in hiding and hideously oppressed? No battle mages? None at all? All their dudes are sword and board? Not only is that stagnant, but that's poor army composition, especially when they're fighting people with magical power.

And sure, Rune Wars were a thing, and I know Demacia's founding backstory has it being menaced by wizards iirc...but that was eons ago, and the rest of the world is getting on fine with the large amounts of magic that exists. Like...that's like hanging every single person who works with TNT and explosives, even for harmless and beneficial purposes, because nukes exist.

**EDIT: ** Ralanr further down the thread has given a very good response on some of the inconsistent things that bothered me (i.e., why no one but Demacia has the "all mages bad" attitude) that seems to make sense. I just wish we had gotten more development on that point.

Given what we know now (magic's rarity, Demacia being a very insular and xenophobic state, the events around its founding), I can believe Demacia's extreme aversion to magic. ...I just wish it was written more subtly and with more nuance.

55 Comments

Jeddy017Apr 2, 20178 votes

Runeterra is a world absolutely full of magic and magic users in all shapes and forms.

Yeah, you're behind the times. This isn't the Institute of War days anymore. Magic is actually pretty rare in most of Runeterra nowadays. Ionia seems to be the only exception with their abundance of magic.

Sure, there's some evil magic users, but there's just as many good- or neutral-aligned magic users. Like... Why does Demacia suddenly hate them all? Do they hate Ionia for being very magical in nature? Do they suddenly despite Piltover for its prevalent use of Hextech, which is a fusion of magic and technology? Like...that seems ridiculous and arbitrary, especially in the context it's in.

Okay 1st of all, Runeterra doesn't have the internet. Yes, there are plenty of good/ neutral mages. But most Demacians likely have no knowledge of them or even care to find out about them. In fact, most of their experience with magic came from their enemies attacking them. So it's pretty easy to see why Demacians would discriminate against mages. Remember, Demacia has taken a more isolationism stance when it comes to Runeterra. They're focused on their own territory & defending it from invaders. So, most Demacians likely have little experience with the outside world. Hell, they probably don't even know Ionia exist since it's so far way & they'll likely have to go through Noxus territory to reach it. Or take the long way through the Freljord.

Also, you might want to watch this:

https://youtu.be/pxjiCFo0NZM?t=3m18s

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20172 votes

Okay, wow, so this causes a lot more headaches.

So they acknowledge the fact that the Rune Wars was a crazy long time ago, and the Rune Wars apparently devastated the world as a whole...and yet, Demacia is still the only country in Runeterra that automatically jumped on the "all magic bad grr" train?

And you can't even say "well it's different for them because magic is rare in Demacia," but according to the video, it's rare everywhere but in Ionia! How come the other countries don't despise mages simply for existing, then?

So in the end, they're all willfully blind to the obvious (that magic is not inherently evil, and has actually helped and is beneficial in several occasions), and their solution is basically to plug their ears and ignore every instance of good magic?

Like, I know stubbornness has always been Demacia's thing, but that's pretty ridiculous. Especially when it's clear that a little magical knowledge could help out their war machine and way of life?

Yeah... I think that's even more frustrating. This causes more problems than it solves. Like, I'm all for worldbuilding, but...

SkelenthApr 2, 20172 votes

Demacia was formed by people who feared magic. I don't think that changed when the only way they feel safe is in a forest that completely negates all magic, in which they from then on lived for centuries.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Sure, I'm not saying there's no reason why they wouldn't hate mages, but then, why doesn't the entirety of Runeterra hate mages and magic simply for existing, regardless of the morality of the magic used, by that logic? They have a more than enough good reason for it.

{quoted}

But everyone on Runeterra, people who would end up settling everywhere on the continent, had suffered at the hands of magic at some point or another in the past. The founding Demacians running away from mages pales in comparison to the Rune Wars, in which magic basically almost eradicated everyone and everything on Runeterra. If anything, a cataclysm like that would stick out much more readily in the minds of the Rune Wars survivors descendants, but no non-Demacians they seem to hate magic on principle.

Where are all the "all magic is evil because it almost fucked the world up beyond all repair" legends and propaganda in, say, Piltover? And magic is just as rare there as it is in Demacia, judging by the Demacia video saying that it's rare everywhere but Ionia. So most Piltovians likely haven't seen a mage in their entire lives either.

RalanrApr 2, 20175 votes

Other places didn't find a home that allowed them to just never accept magic. Though magic does seem to be a tricky subject in most factions.

Piltover and Zaun probably don't really care for magic as they are more focused on technological advancement.

Bilgewater probably doesn't actually care.

Shurima is the most divided of the factions since it's basically a bunch of caravans. But since Taliyah ran away from home because of her gift, it's possible that magic isn't seen as something good in current Shurima.

Since Noxus wanted to use Taliyah as a weapon, we can assume that Noxus is fine with magic as long as it powers the war machine. But every magic user in Noxus is also associated with the Black Rose, so it might be more secretive in the public.

The freljord probably has both users of good and evil magic (or just good and evil practitioners) as we have that ice mage Ryze killed and Frey who said she took to shamanism to turn into a wolf.

The void is the void.

Yordles are basically fey. They are magic.

Ionia was probably not fully hit by the Rune Wars are learned more from it than others. Their entire land is flowing with magic, creating martial arts that utilize it without realizing it (Yasuo's wind style). But it has its fair share of demons (probably more than any other area) through Zed's box and the entire reason the Eye of Twilight ninja clan existed. Ionia is much more comfortable with magic because they've basically embraced it into their culture so deeply that its second nature.

Shadow isles was a magical archive before it turned.

Demacia was founded in a forest made of magic canceling minerals. This allowed the people who settled there to never need to accept magic to deal with it. Why have someone weave a protective ward when you can get an anti magic shield to carry?

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

You make very good points here. I can accept "other countries slowly learned to deal with/tolerate/exist alongside magic after the Rune Wars, while is why they don't hate magic" due to these points, while Demacia being in anti-magic forest and very insular means that they wouldn't really see past this worldview at any point.

Fair.

Chad ChadlainnApr 2, 20177 votes

I'm reminded of this game... uh, what was it? Wyvern Period? No, that's not it... uh, perhaps.... AH, YES, it was Dragon Age! Remember those Templar dudes? They hated on mages and were complete dicks, but they were justified with the potential damage mages could cause. I feel it is the same here. Mages have hurt people and that's all that matters. Rather than unbelievable, Demacia has become scarily realistic.

Remember that one thing with the Germans and the Jewish? That was stupid, but yet it was still something that happened IRL. People look for something to blame for anything bad happening to them, or has happened to them.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

I'll admit that I'm not familiar with the Dragon Age series, so I can't comment on the comparison.

But even so, fearing someone for the "potential" evil they could do is a slippery slope, and I don't think it works. By the logic that every mage has the potential to be evil, you'd have to lock up and/or execute every single person that simply exists, because they also have the potential to be evil and harm people. People without a lick of magic have hurt people too, after all, and some on grander scales than you'd initially think.

Refusing to use magic to your own advantage, even if you impose crazy strict restrictions and things on it, and tarring and feathering (figurative use, but it's essentially what being a mage in Demacia is like) simply for existing is silly.

I don't think the comparisons between Germans and the Jews back in WWII is an accurate one, since there are far, far fewer mages in Demacia than there were Jews in Germany at the time (going off the video linked down in the thread), and mages aren't in positions of power or anything to be as visible as Jews were.

Why does only Demacia need a scapegoat for the Rune Wars, when everyone else seems to be getting by with their lives just fine? That's what I don't understand.

PlacentasApr 2, 20173 votes

Have you not seen the news lately? People HATE muslims or anyone who could potentially be muslim due to a few radicals. Indians who aren't muslim have been mistaken and killed for middle easterns due to this.

Youre right it is a slippery slope and it doesnt work, but it still happens. Thats a fact. The best fiction often reflects reality.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

But, again, the question becomes, why doesn't all of Runeterra hate mages then? Considering the Rune Wars were a much, much bigger cataclysm than the founding of Demacia.

And even with prejudice like that, Muslims are still allowed to exist and go about their daily lives. Mages don't get that luxury. It's not subtly written or nuanced at all, basically.

TheHappyReaperzApr 2, 20174 votes

Not really, Demacia has always been swords and shields, over magic. Think about it. They are the only faction with a single mage representing them. Its not a stretch to see them hating magic, for a couple reasons. A, the Rune Wars. An event so cataclysmic it forced people to run for their lives until they found magic-devouring stone trees. B, Noxus. The foremost combatant of Demacia. The Freljord is too far for a serious all out war, same with Shurima. The Void and Shadow Isles don't have a hold in that region, and Piltover and Zuan have little interest in anything besides themselves. However, Noxus is close enough, and has a large enough army, to constantly battle with Demacia. You know what else Noxus has? A lot of mages. The whole Black Rose organization. So, part of Demaica's hate is past conflict with the whole Rune Wars thing, but the other part of it is near-constant combat with "evil" Noxian mages.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20172 votes

Oh, my problem isn't if they focused more on physical combat than magic, but treating every single mage like Satan for even daring to exist within their borders? No, I can't get behind that.

Sure, there's evil people like the Black Rose, but there's just as many beneficial and good-aligned mages. I'm sure Noxus has plenty of non-magical fighters as well. Why not despite all swordfighters, in that case? Makes...no...sense...

But that's just it. In the OP I pointed out how stupid automatically hating magic because of an event that happened in the past is utterly stupid. Like I said, that's like hating people that work with explosives (even for a harmless or beneficial reason like demolition for construction) because one country got nuked once.

Or it's like people saying, "All water is automatically evil, despite the fact that people need it to survive and use it for many beneficial reasons, because my house got destroyed in a flood once. Time to hang all the people that work with it!"

Just...no. That makes absolutely no sense.

Like, Runeterra as a whole is deeply ingrained with magic, and plenty of people exist and even flourish alongside it.

No other country on Runeterra had such a kneejerk reaction to the aftermath of the Rune Wars. In fact, they embraced magic, and are the better for it. Piltover's Hextech, Ionia's means of self-improvement, all magical in nature.

If anything, it makes Demacia look like a group of shortsighted idiots, and even Noxus is looking like a far more logical and tolerant place. Sure, they're brutally social Darwinist, but at least they don't send you through forcible conversion therapy should you dare be breathing while being a mage.

TheHappyReaperzApr 2, 20173 votes

Its different than automatically hating water, or demonizing explosives. Demacians are soldiers. Every citizen is trained, in some way, to fight. Years of fighting against mages, people who would do things like curse your uncle's blood, rip your memories from your body, and rain fiery bolts of destruction upon you in battle. A more accurate comparison would be places like North Korea hating the US. There was already a set hatred towards the United States, but war made it more acute. If you went to North Korea, as a US citizen, odds are people would hate you. They wouldn't trust you, and it'd be bad. It doesn't matter if you're a real swell guy, they hate what you stand for. Which, is how Demacians feel about magic.

Regarding the other countries actions towards magic, its different for each one. The Shadow Isles are magic, so obviously they don't hate magic. Except Maokai. He hates magic. Shurima was destroyed, and is in a state of disarray at the moment, so magic isn't something the culture can get behind, or be against, because of how fractured it is. Piltover combined magic with tech, creating their own thing, which technically isn't magic. For example, hex-tech thugs, that you see pop up in several Piltover/Zuan stories. They aren't magical, instead, they are powered by hex-tech. What the Ionians do, isn't really magic, its spiritual stuffs. It's not arcane in nature, and instead is more of the manifestation of ones spirit. That's why they are all "harmony and balance, and stuff".

Demacians may seem shortsighted, but you have to think of it by their perspectives. If you were defending your lands from magic, the people you knew and loved were being killed by magic, and you didn't know any good people who used magic, what do you think would happen? From the annullers, or whatever they are called, I forget, magic in Demacia is like a disease. They believe that its twisted and corrupt, because that's all they know. And, you're right, that's pretty shortsighted of them. Or, maybe they are right. Magic can be seen as a corrupting force. Look at the Shadow Isles. It was once a paradise, ruined by magic. What about people like Ryze, racing to save the world from magical disaster. Then you have people like Elise and Syndra, consumed by the magic they wield.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

I can definitely see what you're saying here, and I do think you raise a lot of good points and your post is very well-written. But I still see some logical problems with this.

Demacia's mage hate comes off as so overblown that it's cartoonish, especially when no other country has reacted that way. Hextech in its very existence is magical; you said it yourself. It's the fusion of magic and technology, with magic making up a big part of that. And the video itself says that Ionia's full of magic, not just spiritual energy. They still use and work with magic every day. Both of those countries also experienced the Rune Wars, but didn't jump on the magic-hating bandwagon. Noxus, the Freljord, it's all the same.

Sure, magic can be dangerous, but that's the same with any force and weapon. A sword can end a life, or it can save a life, and so can magic. For every Elise and Syndra, you have a Lux, well-meaning and earnest, and you have an Ezreal, intrepid and adventurous, exploring and bringing back knowledge with his magical ability.

I wouldn't mind if it this oppression wasn't so extreme. Even with instances of real-world oppression, barring the most extreme example (the Holocaust) the oppressed group was allowed to exist out in the open, go about their lives and work, with heavily, heavily restricted lives and a lot of prejudice, sure, but it wasn't so extreme as it's being portrayed here. Even with the Holocaust, in the early years of Hitler's reign, Jews could still be seen and live on the streets.

Maybe I would be more accepting of this if this was presented as the logical conclusion of what had started as simple mage oppression in Demacia, in a similar vein to the Jews of WWII era Germany. Maybe with the current people in power, mages were slowly being stripped of their rights, increasingly humiliated and discriminated against, and debased. That would be far more palatable. The flow of information would be slowly stopping, and people got nothing but evil mage propaganda. Mages are working against the well-being of Demacia! People are looking over their shoulders: Is your neighbor a mage? Turn him in to the authorities! Do your duty as a Demacian citizen!

That's much more believable, and much more subtle to boot.

Whyte LyonApr 2, 20172 votes

Demacia's mage hate comes off as so overblown that it's cartoonish, especially when no other country has reacted that way.

So Garen's arguably irrational intolerance counts for everyone in Demacia does it? I mean they seem to have no issue when Galio magically comes to life every decade or so.

wouldn't mind if it this oppression wasn't so extreme. Even with instances of real-world oppression, barring the most extreme example (the Holocaust) the oppressed group was allowed to exist out in the open, go about their lives and work, with heavily, heavily restricted lives and a lot of prejudice, sure, but it wasn't so extreme as it's being portrayed here.

What are these extreme things that they have done? Even "oppressing" magical individuals isn't a thing in Demacia, not when only 2-3... a handful exist in Demacia every generation. Like is suspicion and irrational fear considered extreme these days? What is soo cartoonish about that?

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Garen's not the only one who reacts that way, though. I mean, in the story Lux's very own_ mother_ is willing to subject her to implied very harmful therapy or some sort of surgery in order to strike the mage out of her, for crying out loud! If that's not an overblown moment, I don't know what is.

And yeah, Garen basically threatening to murder his own sister just for the crime of being a mage? That...that speaks for itself.

Demacians like Galio because he protects them. I mean, it wouldn't make sense that they'd hate him too. As long as magic works for their benefit, they're just fine and dandy as it seems. And that is a little hypocritical of them.

Whyte LyonApr 2, 20172 votes

I mean, in the story Lux's very own mother is willing to subject her to implied very harmful therapy in order to strike the mage out of her, for crying out loud! If that's not an overblown moment, I don't know what is.

So that is what YOU would call an "overblown/cartoonish level" of extreme is it? Cause Xmen is a pretty popular IP that takes those similar extremes into it's fictional universe.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Uh. It's my post, so yeah. That's pretty obvious.

I mean, when somebody's own mother essentially is fine with them suffering physical if not mental harm for something they have no control over, and isn't hurting anyone, then I think you're getting into cartoonish territory.

Plus Garen. Like, the hate comes off as forced and hamfisted. I can see him disliking mages, but this is a girl they've raised from an infant, and Garen's known her for years.

EDIT: Except mutants in X-Men are allowed to exist. Are there people that hate them? Sure. Are they second-class citizens? Sure. Are they discriminated against and disliked? Sure. But it's nowhere near the exaggeration of Demacia's mage hate.

Whyte LyonApr 2, 20172 votes

I think your applying modern logical thought into a fantasy setting that intentionally has extreme and irrational societies in it. Which if you think about that some more, dont all IP's work like that? That's kind of the fun and sometimes appeal of them.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

How so? How do you think I'm applying "modern logic" to any of this? Is it purely modern logic to expect a family to care for their beloved daughter and sister?

Is it modern logic to think that a mother who seems to uncaring of the potential suffering of her mage daughter for something that is no fault of her own to be badly written and unbelievable? Is it modern logic to think that Garen's immense and inexplicably despising Lux to the point that he threatens to kill her with his own hands bad writing?

Whyte LyonApr 2, 20173 votes

Garen's not the only one who reacts that way, though. I mean, in the story Lux's very own mother is willing to subject her to implied very harmful therapy in order to strike the mage out of her, for crying out loud! If that's not an overblown moment, I don't know what is.

It's like judging the citizens of Salem during the infamous witch trials or generally every single insane asylum since recent decades have horrible track records of human rights crimes. You can't say their actions were "overblown" or "cartoonish" levels of extreme, since the times only spoke for themselves.

Should they have known better? Sure! But did they actually?

Is it modern logic to think that a mother who seems to revel in the potential suffering of her mage daughter for something that is no fault of her own

I didn't read the part where her mother gets some kind of sick please out of that scenario, sorry. Maybe an irrational mother thinking of what's best for her child to live happily and in harmony with her fellow citizens.

Look we dont argue that shit isn't extreme, especially from all our modern perspectives. We argue that social thinking can cloud societies rationality and effect their actions. It happens; it's not cartoonish nor overblown and definitely not poorly written.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Why can't you judge the citizens of Salem during the trials? They were irrational, gripped by fear of something they had a cursory understanding of at the best, and chose to react with intolerance and violence, and many completely innocent people were caught in the crossfire (Do most of those things sound familiar?).

I can definitely say their reactions were overblown and extreme too, because they were. Someone could hardly breathe without being called a witch, shoved into a trial, and likely executed for it.

Why can't you judge the practitioners and owners of horribly abusive asylums? Just because "times were different back then" doesn't make their actions any less heinous or excusable. They were always heinous, just fewer people objected to it.

I mean, it's a well-known and documented things that magic is despised, distrusted and hated in all of Demacia just on principle alone, and not just particularly in Lux's household. I'm sure the conversion therapy isn't a rare thing. Considering that Lux's mother was able to hire someone whose entire job seems to be the conversion therapy to do it.

It's still an awful thing, no matter what time period we're talking here. Just because everyone in Demacia agrees doesn't make it right.

EDIT:

I didn't read the part where her mother gets some kind of sick please out of that scenario, sorry. Maybe an irrational mother thinking of what's best for her child to live happily and in harmony with her fellow citizens.

You're right about this. I went back and looked at that part again. She's mousy about it, but still, with the way the implements are described, Lux would very likely have suffered from it, and the mother doesn't express any hesitation or regret for it at all. Lux's mother doesn't even try to understand or see her daughter as more than her "affliction."

EDIT:

We dont argue that shit isn't extreme, we argue that social thinking can cloud societies actions and effect their rationality. It happens; not extreme nor overblown and definitely not poorly written.

Wait, what? You said we don't argue that it's not extreme...but then you just said that it's not extreme or overblown?

Because it most definitely is extreme. To despise all magic simply for existing is very extreme. You may disagree and personally not think it's overblown, but I do, especially when no other country on Runeterra has that same black and white attitude.

Whyte LyonApr 2, 20174 votes

You believe that Demacia's lore update is bad because it's too extreme a scenario. Extreme because Garen and faceless characters are non sympathetic towards lux and other faceless characters. That's bad how? Because YOU disagree with morally ambiguous individuals from fictional bygone cultures. Irregardless of whether you personally agree with the length in changes made, a one dimensional nation of character now has complex ethical principles and I fail to see how that addition to the narrative will have any negative repercussions, other then on yourself of course.

Putting everything aside and before we forget that you and I are still people, having a civilized disagreement. Im curious what you think about Camille's lore, she has some pretty unjustifiable moral principles too.

LanceworksApr 2, 20173 votes

First of all, magic isn't actually that common on Runeterra at all, we just think it is full of magic because a lot the champions can use it.

Demacia's borders are closed from Piltover's traders as seen in the Medarda Heirloom. (I hate it when people still think they are allied)

And for your last point, here's a blurb from Demacia's universe page: "Some suggest that the golden age of Demacia has passed and unless it is able to adapt to a changing world – something many believe it is simply incapable of doing – that its decline is inevitable"

Don't assume that people are rational either. We have a bunch of nonsensical rivalries and taboos in the real world. Why can't a fantasy world (where most of the world is living in medieval times) be hesitant to try new things?

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Oh, you have a point. I'm not against Demacia being wary of mages on principle, but treating mages as though they're the second coming of Satan is another matter entirely, even when they're doing nothing harmful in the least.

I'd be all for a mage-restrictive Demacia. Maybe force mages to carry identification, force them to go to a special camp/school to train them to make sure they use their powers responsibly, maybe they'd be subject to repeated screenings, maybe they'd have their own segregated combat unit, they'd be bullied on the streets, the guards would be wary of them, etc.

But forceful conversion therapy? Treating being a mage as the equivalent of being a serial killer simply for daring to exist? Ridiculous.

Valaran NaraApr 2, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Oh, you have a point. I'm not against Demacia being wary of mages on principle, but treating mages as though they're the second coming of Satan is another matter entirely, even when they're doing nothing harmful in the least.

I'd be all for a mage-restrictive Demacia. Maybe force mages to carry identification, force them to go to a special camp/school to train them to make sure they use their powers responsibly, maybe they'd be subject to repeated screenings, maybe they'd have their own segregated combat unit, they'd be bullied on the streets, the guards would be wary of them, etc.

That sounds like a mixture of Jews during the holocaust and the current dilema between Islam and Judaism in Jerusalem

But forceful conversion therapy? Treating being a mage as the equivalent of being a serial killer simply for daring to exist? Ridiculous.

Now that sounds less like serial killers and more like "Oh, no worries. Homosexuality is just a temporary mental condition. Let's put these electrodes on you. With a few zaps you should be healthy and straight in no time!"

Also, it makes sense. The people who founded Demacia were running away from magic and its evil. They didn't find a land just to survive. They found it to survive MAGIC. Which means the avoidance of destructive magic is what caused the founding of Demacia and the foundation of it.

Due to that, they naturally are wary and hate mages because they see it as a form of evil and destruction. If they teach their kids this and then their kids, it'll become ingrained into their minds for generations and generations.

I mean...we still have racism and discrimination against black people. Like, legit. They have to deal with shit that should have already ended. Some people will still assume that one kid with the glasses who prefers to just stay quiet and read a book is probably a gang banger who deals drugs and will shoot somebody. Why? Because of his skin. Kind of like how Demacians assume all mages will do nothing but destroy and cause pain. Why? Because of their magic.

Same concept. It's just a different focal point. The race analogy is just something that's easy to point out cause it's pretty much institutionalized nearly the same way.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Also, it makes sense. The people who founded Demacia were running away from magic and its evil. They didn't find a land just to survive. They found it to survive MAGIC. Which means the avoidance of destructive magic is what caused the founding of Demacia and the foundation of it.

Due to that, they naturally are wary and hate mages because they see it as a form of evil and destruction. If they teach their kids this and then their kids, it'll become ingrained into their minds for generations and generations.

But everyone on Runeterra, people who would end up settling everywhere on the continent, had suffered at the hands of magic at some point or another in the past. The founding Demacians running away from mages pales in comparison to the Rune Wars, in which magic basically almost eradicated everyone and everything on Runeterra. If anything, a cataclysm like that would stick out much more readily in the minds of the Rune Wars survivors descendants, but no non-Demacians they seem to hate magic on principle.

Where are all the "all magic is evil because it almost fucked the world up beyond all repair" legends and propaganda in, say, Piltover? And magic is just as rare there as it is in Demacia, judging by the Demacia video saying that it's rare everywhere but Ionia. So most Piltovians likely haven't seen a mage in their entire lives either.

Valaran NaraApr 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

But everyone on Runeterra, people who would end up settling everywhere on the continent, had suffered at the hands of magic at some point or another in the past. The founding Demacians running away from mages pales in comparison to the Rune Wars, in which magic basically almost eradicated everyone and everything on Runeterra. If anything, a cataclysm like that would stick out much more readily in the minds of the Rune Wars survivors descendants, but no non-Demacians they seem to hate magic on principle.

Where are all the "all magic is evil because it almost fucked the world up beyond all repair" legends and propaganda in, say, Piltover? And magic is just as rare there as it is in Demacia, judging by the Demacia video saying that it's rare everywhere but Ionia. So most Piltovians likely haven't seen a mage in their entire lives either.

The problem with that argument is that you're saying everyone from one region will have the same kind of culture as another.

Remember, each region has their own culture, set of beliefs, and the likes. Hell, there are still people in Demacia don't even know magic exists and is think's it is a fairy tale. The ones who are aware of its existence are those who go to war and are part of the military. The ones who encounter enemy mages who try to bring destruction and Demacia's end. Unfortunately, that would reinforce it.

How about this: let's compare magic to say...Islam. Right? If you're a mage, you are a Muslim who practices Sharia law and the teachings of the Quaran. Are all Muslims evil? Pffft, no. They're human. Just like how not all mages are evil. They're (mostly) human like Lux. the problem is what each generation was taught and learned. "OMG! Muslims are all terrorists! We need to ban them out of the country. They're going to bomb us!"

The thing is, not all of them are strapped with suicide bomb. Most are average law abiding citizens who sometimes feel as though they can't openly practice or express their religious beliefs or else they might be exemplified and discriminated against. The main difference between Mages in Demacia and Muslims in America is that, with the mages, we actively read about it and analyze it in our heads. With Islamists, some of us have the privilege of looking away as though nothing's wrong.

After all, "It's just a pat down. If they haven't done anything wrong, there's nothing to worry about."

You know, unless the person patting you down does it because you're a ~~mage~~ Muslim.

ExtrasolarApr 3, 20171 votes

Hmm, you make a very interesting comparison. I think that it works pretty well.

I can definitely see the intensity of mage oppression in current Demacia as the conclusion of decades and decades worth of propaganda and the lack of information.

The same has happened in dictator states right here (obvious example if obvious). Perhaps I was not looking at it as a development over time, rather than something that just suddenly happened. That makes it more believable.

PlacentasApr 2, 20171 votes

Bruh, thank you for being aware.

PlacentasApr 2, 20173 votes

In this thread

OP refuses to read/listen to anyone's arguments and repeats their argument which was been shut down.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Except that's not it at all. People have made arguments, and I pointed out that there are still logical problems with them. I get the sense that you didn't read the thread in full?

And my arguments haven't been shut down. Nobody has provided a reason why all of Runeterra hasn't suddenly started hated mages after the Rune Wars, when that was a far more extreme and tragic event than Decmacia's founding.

Like I said, the arguments are that it's not realistically written or written with any kind of restraint whatsoever, and nobody has successfully argued otherwise about that. Feel free to disagree, but at the very least be accurate in your assessments.

GreenLoreApr 2, 20172 votes

Its because the rune wars almost devestated the whole continent. Remember that whole nations were erased by it.

And the backstory that demacia was founded by people who were hunted down by mages only to find this anti-magic material and win,actually explains pretty well why they see magic as bad and anti-magic as good.

Also in Luxs lore they mention a slum for mages and "doctors" to cure them,so they have other mages,its just that they are treated like they have some dangerous illness. And they can hold their own in battle,because they are better trained and equipped than other armies. Enemy magic isn't that bad if you have anti-magic armor and wyvernrider as air support.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

First point. If that's the case, why doesn't every single person/country on the continent hate mages for existing, then? The Rune Wars was a much more devastating event than the events around Demacia's founding.

{quoted}

But everyone on Runeterra, people who would end up settling everywhere on the continent, had suffered at the hands of magic at some point or another in the past. The founding Demacians running away from mages pales in comparison to the Rune Wars, in which magic basically almost eradicated everyone and everything on Runeterra. If anything, a cataclysm like that would stick out much more readily in the minds of the Rune Wars survivors descendants, but no non-Demacians they seem to hate magic on principle.

Where are all the "all magic is evil because it almost fucked the world up beyond all repair" legends and propaganda in, say, Piltover? And magic is just as rare there as it is in Demacia, judging by the Demacia video saying that it's rare everywhere but Ionia. So most Piltovians likely haven't seen a mage in their entire lives either.

My problem isn't that they dislike magic. Far from it. My problem that it's not realistic in the way it's written. I say further down the thread that even the worst prejudice in real life is far, far more restrained and nuanced than it's being written here. I like subtlety in my works.

GreenLoreApr 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

First point. If that's the case, why doesn't every single person/country on the continent hate mages for existing, then? The Rune Wars was a much more devastating event than the events around Demacia's founding.

Becuase the others were likely the ones using magic to fight magic. The founders of demacia however didn't have any mages among them and thus only survived thanks to the antimagic trees.

My problem isn't that they dislike magic. Far from it. My problem that it's not realistic in the way it's written. I say further down the thread that even the worst prejudice in real life is far, far more restrained and nuanced than it's being written here. I like subtlety in my works.

Not sure why you'd see it as too extreme. We humans have done far more brutal things to surpress magic and that happened even though magic doesn't exist in real life. So it makes only sense that this could happen in a fantasy world,where magic actually brought ruin to so many people.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

** Becuase the others were likely the ones using magic to fight magic.** The founders of demacia however didn't have any mages among them and thus only survived thanks to the antimagic trees.

(Bolding mine) That's all pure speculation. There are no indications of this whatsoever. But regardless, if mages are hated simply on principle of their destructive force, it wouldn't matter if there were a few "good" ones about.

Barring the destructive runes, wasn't all magic rare on Runeterra from the beginning in new lore? So fact to business, they wouldn't have many mages either.

If that's why Demacia despises them, then the same should go for everyone, who's experienced the very same destruction. Singling them out because of a comparatively very recent event, which doesn't compare to the scale of the Rune Wars, is inconsistent and inexplicable to me.

Not sure why you'd see it as too extreme. We humans have done far more brutal things to surpress magic and that happened even though magic doesn't exist in real life. So it makes only sense that this could happen in a fantasy world,where magic actually brought ruin to so many people.

I say it's too extreme because Demacia goes to lengths that no one else does. Everyone on Runeterra should be hating all magic regardless of its origin, by that logic, but they don't.

For the human comparison, sure, we brutally suppressed it. But that's just the difference. Magic doesn't exist here. There are no mages, good or not, that exist. But Runeterra has magic and mages, even if they happen to be rare.

Basically, if they wanted to go with "magic is hated because of its destructive forces, and it's so rare that people don't know much about it and are wary of it because of their lack of understanding" then the least they could do was be all-inclusive of that the world over, other than Ionia which is extremely magical.

GreenLoreApr 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The founders of demacia however didn't have any mages among them and thus only survived thanks to the antimagic trees.

(Bolding mine) That's all pure speculation. There are no indications of this whatsoever. But regardless, if mages are hated simply on principle of their destructive force, it wouldn't matter if there were a few "good" ones about.

Barring the destructive runes, wasn't all magic rare on Runeterra from the beginning in new lore? So fact to business, they wouldn't have many mages either.

Well some factions had to be the ones who were using the magic during the runewars(it obviously couldn't use itself) and they are likely the predecessors of the current ones.

I say it's too extreme because Demacia goes to lengths that no one else does. Everyone on Runeterra should be hating all magic regardless of its origin, by that logic, but they don't.

For the human comparison, sure, we brutally suppressed it. But that's just the difference. Magic doesn't exist here. There are no mages, good or not, that exist. But Runeterra has magic and mages, even if they happen to be rare.

Basically, if they wanted to go with "magic is hated because of its destructive forces, and it's so rare that people don't know much about it and are wary of it because of their lack of understanding" then the least they could do was be all-inclusive of that the world over, other than Ionia which is extremely magical.

Because Demacia is a country that is pretty much based around anti-magic stone. That material is their most valuable asset and was their savior in need,thats why they started to embrace anti-magic,which in turn led to them starting to demonize magic as it is seen as the opposite of the petricide.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Yeah, Ralanr made a really good post further down the thread with lots of good reasons and explanations for this stuff regarding other countries. I edited the OP talking about it.

I concede on that point, as it makes sense with all of that taken into account. Here's what I said word for word.

{quoted}

You make very good points here. I can accept "other countries slowly learned to deal with/tolerate/exist alongside magic after the Rune Wars, while is why they don't hate magic" due to these points, while Demacia being in anti-magic forest and very insular means that they wouldn't really see past this worldview at any point.

Fair.

OurLestradeApr 2, 20171 votes

I'm hoping the Noxian updates make them human purists that hate non-humans. They already had hints of that in the JoJ.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

That was always Noxus' thing. As far as I know, Noxus being extremely xenophobic has carried over to the new lore. But honestly, Demacians hating non-humans wouldn't be inexplicable or anything, considering what we're learning of them and their state.

LanceworksApr 2, 20173 votes

Wow, you are really behind.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

What? Vague one-sentence statements like that mean nothing. What are you talking about?

GreenLoreApr 2, 20172 votes

Whats vague about this? It clearly says that they allow everyone to join them,even if they aren't noxians.

That is the exact opposite of xenophobia.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Saying "Wow you really are behind" says nothing. That's vague.

And contrary to popular belief, just because non-humans are in the Noxian army doesn't mean they're not xenophobic and/or that they don't dislike humans. I mean, we've seen countless times that oppressed and/or disliked peoples have joined armies of people that dislike them.

I mean, lots of slaves were forced into the Confederate army during the American Civil War. Does that mean the Confederate army was totally chill and not racist? No. No it doesn't.

Noxus is a gigantic empire and war machine. Hell yes they would force everyone into the army, human or not. Doesn't mean they'd accept or see non-humans as equal to them.

GreenLoreApr 2, 20171 votes

Have you even clicked the link in the above post? Its a link to the universe page,where it explains how Noxus expands their territory:

As Noxus expands and defeats neighboring cultures and cities, it offers the conquered people a choice; swear loyalty to Noxus and be judged solely on your worth, or be destroyed. This is not subterfuge or any kind of ruse; the Noxians are as good as their word, and many who have embraced their conquerors' way of life find their prospects greatly improved. But those who refuse to bend the knee are crushed without mercy.

If Noxus was xenophobic then there wouldn't be a way how their life could be improved when joining Noxus

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Yeah, what Noxus does is forced assimilation. They basically say "accept our way of life/our culture, or we will kill you." That sounds pretty xenophobic to me.

And by their way of life is improved, I think it means that people who throw up their hands and submit to Noxian rule have it better than people who resist and try to cling to their own traditions.

The Romans were also xenophobic, despite the fact that they were conquerors. They looked down upon every single culture that wasn't them as inferior, and forced the conquered cultures to worship the Emperor, Roman gods, and observe various other Roman traditions. Noxus seems to be much of the same.

Xenophobia is any sort of aversion or dislike of cultures other than your own, not explicitly racism, though the two are often used interchangeably.

GreenLoreApr 2, 20171 votes

Because Ourlestrade to whose post you replied talked about noxian racism.

Yeah they aren't respectful to other cultures,but they aren't racist,thats what I was talking about.

ExtrasolarApr 2, 20171 votes

Oh, looks like we hit a misunderstanding. I was saying that Noxus has always been xenophobic and they're the same in the new lore, but if the OP in this mini-thread was talking about racism in paritcular, then yeah, they don't seem to be racist.