What the hell is the lore team getting paid for?

RhQCht59fT··395 votes·80,950 views

"A prodigy from the rough streets of Zaun, Ekko manipulates time to spin any situation to his advantage. Using his own invention, the Zero-Drive, he explores the branching possibilities of reality. As well as experimenting with multi-dimensional probability, Ekko spends his days running wild with the other lost children of Zaun. Though he revels in this freedom, when there's a threat to his friends, he'll endure anything to defend them. To the unknowing observer, Ekko accomplishes the impossible with ease, time and time again." - Ekko

Where is the lore team? Does Riot even have one? How much are they getting paid for jacking off and playing League of Legends for 10 hours a day? Why is lore no longer than a paragraph anymore?

I'm getting pretty sick of this. Just because you think people don't give a shit, or you think it isn't profitable, doesn't mean it wouldn't enhance the game.

I played World of Warcraft just because I really loved the lore. When you add meaningful lore, it strengthens the community. But no. Who cares about that? Who needs a strong, engaging community when we can have a fan base that treats a video game like it's a freaking sport? Who needs good and meaningful lore, when we can have nerds who cuss out their OWN TEAMMATES when one of them gives up first blood? Go ahead and keep acting like this is a sport.

It wouldn't hurt to actually have some lore. To actually have something for me to care about this game more than getting 20+ lp from a win.

439 Comments

Yankspanker199 votes

Riot has a lore team?

RiotRiotJaredan69 votes

Sorry I haven't stuck my head in here until now. I always say it's been a hectic few weeks as we're a busy bunch of folks. And that's the part that can be confusing, and annoying, due to the expectations we have not met. Frankly, Saturday nights are currently the time I'm most able to sit down and put together a semi-cogent response on here. My apologies for that.

To help with clarity, and for a common place to start from, I'll reiterate what I've said elsewhere on the board when it comes to a misunderstanding of what Narrative is.

At Riot we work from a matrixed concept of Disciplines and Product Teams. Disciplines are made up of people of a distinctive craft. Product Teams are made up of people from various disciplines (crafts) who work together to make something. This thing may be to make something for purely external means or to go to the players. Product team does not mean "thing to sell." It can be something that players pay for or not. It can be something made to go to players, or not.

With that in mind, this is what Narrative is: We are a distinct discipline made up of people who are focused on the development of characters and stories through ideation and writing. We help ensure thematic cohesion on various products, develop archetypes and personalities, and we help solve creative problems using character, story, and world building. We also write stories because we pretty much love to. You haven't seen enough of them. Yet. There are numerous reasons for this that we are working to solve. In this case, "we" means Riot.

We employ our craft on various Product Teams. For example, on League of Legends, we have Narrative Writers who work on Champion Team, Champion Update, Events, Promo and beyond. On Champion Team, the Narrative Writers spend a lot of time being part of the creative teamwork, in conjunction with a lot of other disciplines, in making new, exciting Champions that are thought out down to a molecular level when it comes to their identity.

As you cited Ekko, I'll talk to him in particular.

From a Narrative standpoint, FauxSchizzle was the principal Narrative writer working on the Ekko Champion team with a large number of people from different disciplines (Art, Game Design etc.). He helped with concepting the character's personality with the team, including writing story sketches (think of them as concept story, you'll likely be seeing an example of this pretty soon) that helped everyone get a clear picture of who the Champion is.

Taking a Champion from ideation, through production, to release is a very taxing, involved job due to wanting to make the best Champion possible each and every time. That's the same for artists, designers and writers of various specializations.

Faux was also the principal writer on Seconds (Ekko's animation) and Chronobreak (his comic). On all of his work, from concepting to launch, Faux received support from various members of Narrative in the form of edits, feedback and writers room sessions. No matter what the team is, we support each other in our work, because that's what makes us Narrative and Rioters.

Ekko was one of three champions that Faux has been working on.

The reason I'm outlining this is to clarify and dispute one assertion: Lore team isn't doing anything.

Firstly, Narrative isn't a "lore team," as the above explanation may help clarify. What we have been doing is working on a variety of Product Teams that make a multitude of things for players. We are more than busy in doing so, hence we have been pushing very hard to hire more superb writers to join us.

The short character intros are developed by Narrative as part of the work done for Champion Team, or Champion Update.

They are Narrative's direct responsibility on those teams, and I will say that we have heard you and others very clearly on your displeasure with the shorter introductions to the Champion. The fact is, they have always been intended as a quick overview for folks who don't want to hit a wall of text in the client, particularly in a format that was very inflexible for us. The plan was to release short intros and then have longer stories on the website.

Then, when initially trying to implement this, we discovered a technical issue made it impossible to do so. We didn't think it would take long to fix.

We were wrong.

Thankfully, it seems we have finally got a solution in place and you'll be seeing the fruits of that development within the next month when we'll be releasing some stuff (stuff = things I can't spoil) that will take advantage of the new tech capability.

While we have been waiting to sort these issues out, it's given us the time to look at our content goals. Much of that desire to question our direction for the specific intros/bios/stories (as they have been in various iterations), has been due to the consternation expressed on these boards. We led an effort to try and drive on short stories to go along with those character intros. When we saw the vocal assertion that something like the old bio format would still be welcome even with those stories, we took another look at what we were doing.

We anted something that gave the meat of certain details of the old bios, while still feeling current and not creating a sense of that Champion's life being static.

Ant in Oz pitched a format that makes a lot of sense and it's currently going through fine tuning. To give you an idea though, it's the current introductory paragraph, followed by a background or bio section with some details and story hooks to stimulate understanding and conversation, followed by a quick story that shows the Champion being who they are. They are certainly more in-depth than the current intros and I'm confident of their quality.

We've formed an impromptu team of Narrative folks doing some extra hours to start formalizing a process, discussing character pitches and then getting them written. We're prioritizing them based on the needs of Product Teams as well as how broken they are. For example, Singed is one that I've personally put an outline together for. I won't talk about the others due to spoilers.

I understand the overall frustration completely. We're working on moving things in a much more satisfactory direction than has been the case in the last couple of years, but this will never be a case of Narrative deciding to do things on its own, we always work within Product Teams and the priorities are made by Riot as a whole and then within those teams.

We take our specific responsibility very seriously though. As a discipline we need to do better, and I think folks we've brought on like FauxSchizzle are helping us do that. We try to put as much story as we can into everything we do as we are storytellers by trade and by passion. Story isn't the main product of every team we work on, however.

So while I understand that it is, at times, difficult to pick out Narrative's work from within things made by teams (if we're doing it right, you won't be able to for much of the time), please don't mistake that for us not doing anything.

That simply is not true.

I get a bit protective of Narrative as it's my day-to-day responsibility to ensure we are meeting the needs of Riot's many teams, so I have to rein in my urge to leap to their defense each time we are said to be doing nothing. I stop myself because though the details might not always be accurate, the overall sense of being let down, of not having enough prepared and in place after the reset blog announcement, is utterly valid.

The difference comes from perspective. I know precisely how hard the members of Narrative work. I know how many hours Faux and numerous others (including those not on Narrative) put in to make Ekko as a Champion, Seconds as an animation, and Chronobreak as a comic, the best they could be. It's no small effort.

I know until the content that you desire is available to you, it's difficult to see what it is that we're actually doing. I hope this post at least gives you a little insight into how things are.

Sorry for the long post, I hope I kept it at least mainly coherent, but I'm a bit knackered.

These posts bother me constantly and are in the back of my mind every day. It's not because of the sometimes unfortunate tone, it's because of the underlying truth. We need to not just tell you how we're trying to get better at putting things in your hand, we need to put them in your hand.

I'm very excited for the next month or so.

darkdill35 votes

Let's hope you aren't making ANOTHER broken promise now.

Like you said, you have ONE MONTH to put something forward. Screw up now, and it won't be pretty.

EDIT: For context, this is not a threat (and people who think it is just assume the worst of me). This is simply me saying it's very likely that if the 'one month' results don't come through, other people on this forum are likely to get out their pitchforks and torches. Me? I'd just be pissed, not violent about it.

RiotRiotJaredan46 votes

Yup, I'm putting myself in a predicament. But we're at a point where if I just say "soon." folks here are, understandably, really sick and tired of it. There's possibilities things may get moved, I'm not in control of that. But I want to say something of consequence and commit to the work we've been doing.

I'll risk taking the kicking for it if people get some measure of what we're striving for.

Xonra30 votes

{quoted}

Yup, I'm putting myself in a predicament. But we're at a point where if I just say "soon." folks here are, understandable, really sick and tired of it. There's possibilities things may get moved, I'm not in control of that. But I want to say something of consequence and commit to the work we've been doing.

I'll risk taking the kicking for it if people get some measure of what we're striving for.

Tl;dr Give us a reason to trust you guys, and don't give us any more reasons not to. Please.

I think it would really help if you guys would tells us...anything outside of "stuff soon" or "stuff is coming, we promise!"

Honestly even seeing "in a month" kind of rings hollow, as I've been here going on 5 years, and I have turned cynical to Riot promises.

I have also watched the lore go down the toilet slowly but surely, going from engaging champions in game, feeling engaged as a Summoner (which thanks for killing that off guys), really getting into the champions as more than 4 buttons and a passive....

....to feeling like the champions have lost their way, their identities, and it feels like all those stories and lives we read about have slowed down and the characters are just sitting in bubbles, some sitting in stasis completely. The world USED to feel connected, used to feel big and interesting, and the mysterious was cool (like with the Shadow Isles). Now it feels like the world is small and half the time not even the same world, as nothing feels connected, half the champions aren't connected to anything or anyone, and just floating lost.

What is Sona doing, connected to, where is she? Does anyone (champion wise) care about what she is doing?

What about Chogath Malzahar Aatrox Alistar Annie Brand Karma Kayle Orianna Do you get the picture? Cause I could keep going.

Since there is no more League in the context of the story, what are they doing? They have nothing anymore unless they were part of the shoehorning into Shurima or the Freljord a while back. Characters that had purpose no longer have one. Stories were left unexplained, storylines just kind of...died off "because reasons" with no explanations.

No one is telling us if there is interesting lore coming, some fun event with stories coming, just "stuff will be happening in a month" which given what we have been shown the past year, we might get a 30 second video and a paragraph about Yorick fishing or something completely random.

Swenka8 votes

{quoted}

Tl;dr Give us a reason to trust you guys, and don't give us any more reasons not to. Please.

I think it would really help if you guys would tells us...anything outside of "stuff soon" or "stuff is coming, we promise!"

Honestly even seeing "in a month" kind of rings hollow, as I've been here going on 5 years, and I have turned cynical to Riot promises.

I have also watched the lore go down the toilet slowly but surely, going from engaging champions in game, feeling engaged as a Summoner (which thanks for killing that off guys), really getting into the champions as more than 4 buttons and a passive....

....to feeling like the champions have lost their way, their identities, and it feels like all those stories and lives we read about have slowed down and the characters are just sitting in bubbles, some sitting in stasis completely. The world USED to feel connected, used to feel big and interesting, and the mysterious was cool (like with the Shadow Isles). Now it feels like the world is small and half the time not even the same world, as nothing feels connected, half the champions aren't connected to anything or anyone, and just floating lost.

What is Sona doing, connected to, where is she? Does anyone (champion wise) care about what she is doing?

What about Chogath Malzahar Aatrox Alistar Annie Brand Karma Kayle Orianna Do you get the picture? Cause I could keep going.

Since there is no more League in the context of the story, what are they doing? They have nothing anymore unless they were part of the shoehorning into Shurima or the Freljord a while back. Characters that had purpose no longer have one. Stories were left unexplained, storylines just kind of...died off "because reasons" with no explanations.

No one is telling us if there is interesting lore coming, some fun event with stories coming, just "stuff will be happening in a month" which given what we have been shown the past year, we might get a 30 second video and a paragraph about Yorick fishing or something completely random.

Exactly. I can't remember the exact quote, but someone else on the boards awhile back said, essentially:

"What we have are a bunch of prologues. We see the beginning of their story, but not where they go from there. There's nothing after the introduction of the character and some flashy animation; just silence as we wait for the next champion to be released with eye candy that does nothing but further lower expectations."

Impetual6 votes

Somewhere, there should theoretically be a person who can create reasonable deadlines for Riot narrative staff to produce quality content on a consistent basis, based on past production cycles.

That person would be called a manager: someone who takes ownership of a project and makes sure that project is completed in a reasonably efficient time frame at an acceptable quality, quite often with a hard deadline set in advance and based off past performance. Like in the most jobs.

Sadly, that person either doesn't exist at Riot, or they just don't want to talk to us.

Either way, it still presently feels pretty sucky to be a LoL lore fan right now.

RiotRiotJaredan8 votes

For clarity: Product Owners are responsible for the goals, quality of results and effective running of each Product Team. They, along with their team, decide the particulars of a project as it fits into the goals of Riot as a whole.

Managers (though we don't title it this way) support Rioters' craft and professional development while working with Product Owners to make sure teams are staffed to appropriate levels and that disciplines are effectively supporting the Rioters working on those teams.

There are many Product Owners. Each team, such as Champion, has one. For Narrative, as that's what we're discussing, management, particularly for LoL, is my responsibility.

Riot, Product Owners and Product Teams decide what we make and how we make them. Disciplines ensure we have great people honing their craft to drive those product teams. We all work together to make the best things we can for players.

Your request, in the way that Riot works, is for a specific Product Team dedicated to making the kind of bios and recurring stories that you desire.

As I put in my previous post, there are a few folks working on putting this together, including some members of Narrative. In the meantime, we're working on improving bios anyway.

I hope that provides a little clarity on the subject.

Voodoo Jelly10 votes

{quoted}

For clarity: Product Owners are responsible for the goals, quality of results and effective running of each Product Team. They, along with their team, decide the particulars of a project as it fits into the goals of Riot as a whole.

Managers (though we don't title it this way) support Rioters' craft and professional development while working with Product Owners to make sure teams are staffed to appropriate levels and that disciplines are effectively supporting the Rioters working on those teams.

There are many Product Owners. Each team, such as Champion, has one. For Narrative, as that's what we're discussing, management, particularly for LoL, is my responsibility.

Riot, Product Owners and Product Teams decide what we make and how we make them. Disciplines ensure we have great people honing their craft to drive those product teams. We all work together to make the best things we can for players.

Your request, in the way that Riot works, is for a specific Product Team dedicated to making the kind of bios and recurring stories that you desire.

As I put in my previous post, there are a few folks working on putting this together, including some members of Narrative. In the meantime, we're working on improving bios anyway.

I hope that provides a little clarity on the subject.

You do not have much time to justify yourself to the fanbase. I think next month's release both better be good, and as a corollary to being good, it had better become a standard for what you're going to do every 1-3 months.

If you have the time to read this and respond, I'd greatly appreciate it:

I made a very long post to Ruunan and received no response a long time ago.

For your convenience, I will summarize the gist of my post instead of just repeating it here for you.

My post was on the subject of "world-character".

The fact that Runeterra as a setting is supposed to be "good enough" on its own without the Institute of War and the League is fine and dandy, and a reset to the lore without these ideas is not inherently bad, I agree.

But you guys have left a gaping vacuum where a cohesive "world-character" should be in your storytelling.

A "world-character" refers to the theme of the setting as manifested in how ALL the characters interact with one another, justifying interaction between the characters.

League had a complicated, and perhaps overbearing world-character with the Institute of War managing everything, which is why I can understand replacing it. Replacing it: not leaving it blank.

You have left it blank for too long, and now the fanbase has lost confidence that you'll ever restore it.

Can you assure me that next month, before July ends, you will begin to fill in the lost sense of world-character that has been missing?

I really liked some of the world-character that the Institute provided, and I feel like I'm representative of a significant part of the fanbase who wants to know that unrelated characters can actually coexist in the new lore.

Say hypothetically, Jinx and... oh I don't know, Lux, characters who have absolutely nothing in common, could approach each other in the modern lore and have a reason to do so. Without the Institute and the League, right now, they simply don't. A good world-character would allow these two to interact despite their initial locations in the world not allowing for it.

...Sometimes I'd like to get hired by you guys just to see what the hell is going on. -_- Want to hire me, Riot? I'm a writer. I can help. I'd love to figure out what is happening with the narrative over there. Legitimately, Mister Jaredan. I really like the game, but the lore has grown thin and sickly.

Give me a salary, Riot. Seriously. I'll send you my resumé in a heartbeat.

I care about your lore in a way few do, I think. It hurts me physically in a way that honestly has driven me away from playing the game as often as I used to, because the story is so non-existent.

I erased a significant amount of this post just now because I began to ramble, a bit angrily, so I will just ask again in closing: does your proposed release address this lack of "world-character"?

It really needs to do that to give the fans any hope that the overall narrative of League of Legends will mean something again.

RiotRiotJaredan9 votes

Hey Voodoo,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I'll try my best to answer your question.

Though I'm afraid we might have to agree to disagree a bit.

I'd say we don't need one unifying reason for Champions to interact with each other in the story world. Without one reason, you assert there are no reasons. Instead I think there are many reasons. Each of them driven by the characters themselves and the events they cause. Each story can have its own reason for why people who don't usually interact suddenly have to. Honestly, it's almost limitless.

We don't need or want one unifying reason that people interact with each other.

We want the reasons that characters meet, fight, love (my new novel) to speak very directly to who they are.

For example: Jinx, a whirling storm of dangerous anarchy, contrasts rather well with Lux. Them having nothing in common with each other is a great reason to put them together. They contrast and highlight. What could Lux learn from Jinx? I can think of a few things. What could Jinx learn from Lux? Ok, that's a bit scary.

If we feel that's a story worth telling (and the more I think about it, the more I rather like the idea), there are so many ways we could make that happen that would speak to who both characters are. To strengthen the expression of them as characters and, thereby, the story being told.

The idea of a world-character is a fine one. There are certainly powerful unifying elements that we are going to use that are in that vein—but they'll never permanently override our desire to have conflicts generated by the wants and needs of Valoran's people.

I've seen a number of folks who have said very assertively that without the IoW there's no reason for Champions to interact. That's simply not accurate. There just isn't a blanket reason. At the moment. There might be some at some times (RUNE WAAAAR!?), but it won't always be motivated in the same manner.

The unifying factor is always this: is it a good story? Does it strengthen the idea of who those characters are? Does it give the opportunity for us to see a new side of them? Does it give two (or more) of them the opportunity to grow? Does it give them the opportunity to fail?

The release(s) I'm speaking of won't address your point that there should be one primary construct to put Champs together because it won't employ that construct. It will respond to your point, however.

And, of course, you are welcome to send in your CV, there's an open position on our website here.

Thanks for taking the time to post. Even if we disagree on the matter, it's these kind of posts that drive the conversation forward.

Cheers.

Impetual9 votes

The sad thing is that Riot used to have an awesome legitimate reason for champions to fight 5v5 fights with one another like they do in the game, and they purposefully threw it away in order to produce what could be considered substandard lore, as it lacks a reason why champions are participating in the main concept of the game, that being the League of Legends.

ItemsGuy10 votes

{quoted}

The sad thing is that Riot used to have an awesome legitimate reason for champions to fight 5v5 fights with one another like they do in the game, and they purposefully threw it away in order to produce what could be considered substandard lore, as it lacks a reason why champions are participating in the main concept of the game, that being the League of Legends.

But don't you see? Don't you "get it"? League of Legends is just a wacky, what-if crossover game!

It's perfectly okay, because Super Smash. Bros (a game whose roster consists of characters who have been established for the past 8-30 years, most of which having at least half a dozen games of their own) did it! Why can't League do it? Why does the game of League of Legends have to have anything to do with the story of League of Legends, or even include the titular narrative device, the League of Legends? I think having a bunch of random people of widely varying power and influence randomly fighting in a field is much more compelling than a fictional UN that gave over a hundred interesting, unique, and at least partially developed characters to interact with each other regardless of cultural, geographical, or political boundaries.

Because it would make the world seem too small if Ekko and Vi knew each other, right?

FatedTitan3 votes

Since Ekko was mentioned as running around with the lost kids of Zaun, I have a question.

Jinx and Vi are obviously part of his group and his age, yet they're supposed to be in their 30s while Ekko looks like a teenager. How does that work?

RiotRiotJaredan23 votes

Jinx and Vi aren't in their 30s, but they're also not part of Ekko's group or age. Firstly, Zaun isn't a small place. It's got many different types of streets and neighborhoods—and places that you don't want to be caught dead in. Mainly because you'd be dead in them. I've always found that an odd expression. Anyway... To give you some idea on our thinking, as I've seen this topic brought up a number of times, there's a danger that we have to think about with characters regarding making the world feel small: If Ekko is from the streets of Zaun, does that automatically mean he is close to Vi? If so, it makes it feel like Zaun has one neighborhood. It makes Zaun feel small. Instinctively, having Champions all know each other and have direct ties with each other seems like a great thing because then you constantly have bigger stories. The problem being, if they're constantly bigger stories they're actually not that big.

It's the Syndrome of The Incredibles, ermm, syndrome. If everyone is special, no one is.

Of course, some Champions are very strongly tied to each other—Garen and Lux never seeing each other would be crazy. However, we are very careful with those relationships because as soon as you start making everyone know each other, the world becomes incredibly small.

Let me use the example of a movie. I don't mean to throw shade here (OK, there's an expression I can't pull off), but one of the things that bugged me about Amazing Spider-Man 2 (one of the things) was that by the end of the film, its entire universe of story, all of the main character's conflicts, were born from one source and from one place. You could tell every conflict from one office building because that's where Peter Parker got his powers, where his (spoilers) deceased girlfriend worked, where his childhood friend turned nemesis was centered, and where all of his rogues gallery got their powers from. It made Spider-Man's world atomically small.

We want Champions to interact because they are ideally suited for conflict with each other. They are given the time and space to develop their own stories and motivations, and then when they cross paths, those conflicts should highlight their similarities and differences very clearly.

Those times should feel really special. If every story we tell contains a lot of Champions because they are all so inextricably linked it would be crazy not to, then the grandeur of those stories is diminished in the blink of an eye.

Having a lot of Champions who know each other to begin with makes the world smaller. It also takes away the opportunity to tell the stories of them meeting in a way that feels special.

That doesn't mean we don't want them to interact. In some ways, Kat and Garen makes no sense at all. And those reaons are why, in my opinion, it makes them perfect for each other. Their Romeo and Juliet element (without all of the naive kids who haven't a clue what they're doing stuff), adds huge stakes to any relationship they have. Those stakes can spiral out to their friends, family and their entire countries. It's a relationship that could provide a new perspective for Demacia and Noxus on each other, or it could spark the end of all things.

Those are the kinds of conflicts we want to focus on.

Just because Champions, such as Ekko, Jinx and Vi, aren't living in each other's pockets, doesn't mean they'll never cross paths. In fact, Vi's past and how that would effect her view of Ekko, and vice versa, is hugely fertile ground that I'd love to get into. But we want to do it because of character motivation and the opportunity for story. It's all there without them having to have run around together.

We can have those conflicts because of who each Champion is without putting them all together and making the world feel smaller at the same time.

We can have our cake and eat it.

Great, now I'm hungry.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense.

Hellioning9 votes

The problem with that approach is that the world doesn't feel like a fully alive, interconnected world. It feels like a bunch of places haphazardly slapped together. I'm trying not to bring it up, but the IoW was a great reason for all of these characters to interact. Without it, and with nothing replacing it, there is basically no way that, say, Teemo and Darius should ever meet unless Noxus decides to invade Bandle City.

Like, take Ekko. We know what he thinks about Zaun and the people in it, and we know what he thinks about Piltover and the people in it. But he has absolutely no connection with anyone or anything outside of it. As far as we know, Zaun and Piltover are in a little bubble that no one can cross.

Certainly, this doesn't preclude having stories about Ekko meeting Noxians/Demacians/whatever and forming an opinion on them personally and the nation they represent, but I'm going to wait until there's any followup stories for anyone else before I start being okay with waiting.

Retillin8 votes

{quoted}

The problem with that approach is that the world doesn't feel like a fully alive, interconnected world. It feels like a bunch of places haphazardly slapped together.

This is it. This is the part Riot seems to be confused about. Both their understand of it, and why players are upset/unhappy with their lack of understanding.

RiotRiotJaredan13 votes

This is a recurring sentiment and a valid one that I'd like to address. From your perspective, I can completely see that you think we are not listening or unable to understand.

We do understand. It is not that we can't understand why those who are vocal about this issue are upset. The problem is that we don't agree with some of the players in the way to answer those concerns.

Of course, we don't like the fact that the decision has caused the unhappiness it has among some of the players. But we're making the decisions we are for the long term health of LoL as a game and as an IP. We want to make Runeterra a much more interesting place to visit than it was and is.

We will make mistakes, and we most certainly have in the past year. We're trying to address concerns in a way that makes sense for players now and in the future. It's taking much longer than we'd like.

The big problem is that without things to point at that shows what we're intending to replace, we're talking hypothetical versus real. The real being previous content.

The hypothetical being what we say we want to do.

The real will always win, particularly in regard to something we are all so passionate about.

Which is why we screwed up by not having those ducks in a row before making the announcement we did. It was an error built on other errors that became the lesser of a number of evils.

Until we've taken the proper action to put new content in your hands, that is of a quality you feel is worth your engagement, that trust won't be repaired.

I would simply ask not to confuse a lack of agreement with a lack of understanding. Because we don't do as you want, doesn't mean we don't understand the benefits and logic in what you say.

We're hoping to show you we can do more. We haven't done that, but we are going to try.

Retillin11 votes

{quoted}

This is a recurring sentiment and a valid one that I'd like to address. From your perspective, I can completely see that you think we are not listening or unable to understand.

We do understand. It is not that we can't understand why those who are vocal about this issue are upset. The problem is that we don't agree with some of the players in the way to answer those concerns.

But this doesn't change the fact that League went from a game with (I'll admit) a "cheesy" reason for being (Institute of War) to a game that is much more like an 80's cartoon. "We need to release a new toy so let's make a new bad guy for He-Man". That works, but ONLY if the story fits. Right now, there is no story. It's just marketing. Is it good marketing? Sure. But it's not a story that is engaging. If making engaging stories was a goal for the past year to 18 months, then you have failed. Succeeded at marketing, but failed at telling a story.

Of course, we don't like the fact that the decision has caused the unhappiness it has among some of the players. But we're making the decisions we are for the long term health of LoL as a game and as an IP. We want to make Runeterra a much more interesting place to visit than it was and is.

We will make mistakes, and we most certainly have in the past year. We're trying to address concerns in a way that makes sense for players now and in the future. It's taking much longer than we'd like.

The big problem is that without things to point at that shows what we're intending to replace, we're talking hypothetical versus real. The real being previous content.

The hypothetical being what we say we want to do.

The real will always win, particularly in regard to something we are all so passionate about.

Which is why we screwed up by not having those ducks in a row before making the announcement we did. It was an error built on other errors that became the lesser of a number of evils.

You just proved my point. It's wasn't that you made the announcement and didn't deliver on it. It's that you went forward with something WITHOUT proper planning. And the response from Riot was (as you basically say in this very post) "we know what we are doing and sorry if you don't like it or don't have the patience". You never said what is/isn't canon any longer. Why should I care about Morgana/Kayle? Are they even sisters anymore? You released a whole "story" for Bard. But (like the Ekko comic/trailer) you didn't say anything other than "look at how cool this is".

Until we've taken the proper action to put new content in your hands, that is of a quality you feel is worth your engagement, that trust won't be repaired.

I would simply ask not to confuse a lack of agreement with a lack of understanding. Because we don't do as you want, doesn't mean we don't understand the benefits and logic in what you say.

We're hoping to show you we can do more. We haven't done that, but we are going to try.

You say this... yet Riot doesn't show it. Just look at the recent boards "discussion" here. Nothing but massive disagreement. Because it was a "discussion" but was really an announcement. "We're hopoing to show you we can do more." But you haven't shown this on this issue in a LONG time. It's up there with "we want to communicate more", but Riot doesn't. "Soon" but never here.

Hellioning14 votes

We don't think you're not listening because you haven't just went back on the retcon and fixed the tech issue immediately. We think you're not listening because Riot barely talks to us. And even when they do post here, it feels like they're not understanding what we say. I still get pissed off when I remember a Riot post that was essentially 'I'd love to talk about Kayle! Aren't you so happy that she doesn't have summoners to control her anymore!?', which was both condescending and entirely stupid.

Impetual13 votes

@Riot you claim: "The problem is that we don't agree with some of the players in the way to answer those concerns."

For god's sake Riot. Players are flat out telling you what they like/dislike about the retconned lore.

Through your forums you have a direct line of opinions of what your players want.

And you, as a company, have decided to disagree with many of your players with little explanation.

Seriously, what happened to you guys?

Is Tryndamere in on this? I seriously hope not!

Nefas15 votes

{quoted}

Jinx and Vi aren't in their 30s, but they're also not part of Ekko's group or age. Firstly, Zaun isn't a small place. It's got many different types of streets and neighborhoods—and places that you don't want to be caught dead in. Mainly because you'd be dead in them. I've always found that an odd expression. Anyway... To give you some idea on our thinking, as I've seen this topic brought up a number of times, there's a danger that we have to think about with characters regarding making the world feel small: If Ekko is from the streets of Zaun, does that automatically mean he is close to Vi? If so, it makes it feel like Zaun has one neighborhood. It makes Zaun feel small. Instinctively, having Champions all know each other and have direct ties with each other seems like a great thing because then you constantly have bigger stories. The problem being, if they're constantly bigger stories they're actually not that big.

It's the Syndrome of The Incredibles, ermm, syndrome. If everyone is special, no one is.

Of course, some Champions are very strongly tied to each other—Garen and Lux never seeing each other would be crazy. However, we are very careful with those relationships because as soon as you start making everyone know each other, the world becomes incredibly small.

Let me use the example of a movie. I don't mean to throw shade here (OK, there's an expression I can't pull off), but one of the things that bugged me about Amazing Spider-Man 2 (one of the things) was that by the end of the film, its entire universe of story, all of the main character's conflicts, were born from one source and from one place. You could tell every conflict from one office building because that's where Peter Parker got his powers, where his (spoilers) deceased girlfriend worked, where his childhood friend turned nemesis was centered, and where all of his rogues gallery got their powers from. It made Spider-Man's world atomically small.

We want Champions to interact because they are ideally suited for conflict with each other. They are given the time and space to develop their own stories and motivations, and then when they cross paths, those conflicts should highlight their similarities and differences very clearly.

Those times should feel really special. If every story we tell contains a lot of Champions because they are all so inextricably linked it would be crazy not to, then the grandeur of those stories is diminished in the blink of an eye.

Having a lot of Champions who know each other to begin with makes the world smaller. It also takes away the opportunity to tell the stories of them meeting in a way that feels special.

That doesn't mean we don't want them to interact. In some ways, Kat and Garen makes no sense at all. And those reaons are why, in my opinion, it makes them perfect for each other. Their Romeo and Juliet element (without all of the naive kids who haven't a clue what they're doing stuff), adds huge stakes to any relationship they have. Those stakes can spiral out to their friends, family and their entire countries. It's a relationship that could provide a new perspective for Demacia and Noxus on each other, or it could spark the end of all things.

Those are the kinds of conflicts we want to focus on.

Just because Champions, such as Ekko, Jinx and Vi, aren't living in each other's pockets, doesn't mean they'll never cross paths. In fact, Vi's past and how that would effect her view of Ekko, and vice versa, is hugely fertile ground that I'd love to get into. But we want to do it because of character motivation and the opportunity for story. It's all there without them having to have run around together.

We can have those conflicts because of who each Champion is without putting them all together and making the world feel smaller at the same time.

We can have our cake and eat it.

Great, now I'm hungry.

Anyway, I hope that makes sense.

Honestly, no, it doesn't make sense.

The world of the elite and powerful is small - and that's what most of the champs in LoL are - elite and powerful figures. The Demacian roster of champs is basically the court elite - they should be constantly interacting. Interactions, even non-direct, used to be done nicely - I thought Rengar's presence in Gnar's story was really nice. Of course not everyone needs to be incredibly interactive with other champs, but you've pushed the pendulum so far in the other direction that the world feels bad. You go out of your way to avoid any interaction at all to the point of emphasizing the generic. This push to isolate characters hurts their stories, it doesn't help them. I don't care if Bard exists or not. Why should I? You have given me no way to connect directly with him because the lore/video is so mysterious for the sake of being mysterious. You have given me no way to connect indirectly with him because the lore/video contains absolutely nothing linking him to Runeterra. None of this has to be so blatant as having characters directly interact but the presence of other characters in the world has to be acknowledged for Runeterra to actually feel like a world instead of an anthology. We don't want lore to be an anthology, we want a world. We don't get lore with any kind of regularity to wait for you to feel like the time is right for an Ekko-Jinx interaction. That would probably take years. There is no reason for us to think that you would ever follow through on such an approach.

RiotRiotJaredan14 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, no, it doesn't make sense.

The world of the elite and powerful is small - and that's what most of the champs in LoL are - elite and powerful figures. The Demacian roster of champs is basically the court elite - they should be constantly interacting. Interactions, even non-direct, used to be done nicely - I thought Rengar's presence in Gnar's story was really nice. Of course not everyone needs to be incredibly interactive with other champs, but you've pushed the pendulum so far in the other direction that the world feels bad. You go out of your way to avoid any interaction at all to the point of emphasizing the generic. This push to isolate characters hurts their stories, it doesn't help them. I don't care if Bard exists or not. Why should I? You have given me no way to connect directly with him because the lore/video is so mysterious for the sake of being mysterious. You have given me no way to connect indirectly with him because the lore/video contains absolutely nothing linking him to Runeterra. None of this has to be so blatant as having characters directly interact but the presence of other characters in the world has to be acknowledged for Runeterra to actually feel like a world instead of an anthology. We don't want lore to be an anthology, we want a world. We don't get lore with any kind of regularity to wait for you to feel like the time is right for an Ekko-Jinx interaction. That would probably take years. There is no reason for us to think that you would ever follow through on such an approach.

I agree with you completely on your assessment of Demacian champions. That's exactly how those relationships are built. We will have some Champions who interact with each other regularly in a situation that is personal to them. It's the same with the Du Couteaus. It's just we won't have that for all of our Champions from the moment they exist. For some, their relationships with other champions will grow and they will interact when it makes for the best stories.

Also, we will broaden our supporting cast of non-Champion characters to develop relationships with.

Rengar's involvement with Gnar occurred because it made sense (writing first person on Gnar is tricky as hell, plus Rengar's self-important view of his prowess makes a good foil for the little/monstrously huge fella). We'll have those interactions when we feel it's the strongest option.

We don't create those interactions in the belief that they inherently make the character we are introducing stronger. They actually distract from the character more often than not, but this is all through the lens of the Champion's launch.

Until we give content that shows that these Champions do interact, I see how wanting to have them do so when you first see them is very powerful. Frankly, I agree that some players are worried that if it doesn't happen there, it won't happen at all.

For example, Batman didn't need Superman to be the character he is. Batman and Superman stories can be really cool because of who they are as individual characters.

Right now, much of the content we have been providing is the opening chapter of one character's personal story. Having other Champions can, at times, detract from getting a good handle on who that character is.

You state that we have avoided some of those interactions to drive towards the generic. In fact we do that to drive towards the individual character. The strength of that character will decide if that experience is good enough. If the character is not strong enough, putting him or her next to a stronger character won't solve that problem at all.

Again that is all in the specific arena of the initial launch of a character.

We absolutely need to show the differences and strengths of the characters by having them bounce off each other. We haven't done enough of that yet to show how special that needs to be to have a truly vibrant world. That we have close-knit characters in certain places and situations because it strengthens that part of our world, but also Champions that affect their immediate vicinity in ways unique to them.

It's our responsibility to deliver on that promise and we haven't done a good enough job yet.

Retillin8 votes

{quoted}

We don't create those interactions in the belief that they inherently make the character we are introducing stronger. They actually distract from the character more often than not, but this is all through the lens of the Champion's launch.

If this is honestly the agreed on thought behind Lore, when I think we can understand why we are so upset. This is 100% against anything you learn/see/feel when writing a story. Take Game of Thornes and Arya meeting Sam. It's not a waste of space "distracting" from a story. It builds the story, linking the world in a way that makes it feel alive.

Until we give content that shows that these Champions do interact, I see how wanting to have them do so when you first see them is very powerful. Frankly, I think players are worried that if it doesn't happen there, it won't happen at all.

For example, Batman didn't need Superman to be the character he is. Batman and Superman stories can be really cool because of who they are as individual characters.

Batman and Superman were their own characters before they met up. They had history and stories built around them. What story is there for Bard? Ekko? Nothing. They are just blank slates. There is a reason X-Men, Justice League, Avengers work. It's because they interact. You get to see the growth and hidden aspects of characters.

It's our responsibility to deliver on that promise and we haven't done a good enough job yet.

RiotRiotJaredan14 votes

{quoted}

Batman and Superman were their own characters before they met up. They had history and stories built around them. What story is there for Bard? Ekko? Nothing. They are just blank slates. There is a reason X-Men, Justice League, Avengers work. It's because they interact. You get to see the growth and hidden aspects of characters.

That is my point. We need to make those stories for our Batmen and Supermen before they meet up. We haven't done that enough yet. Champion launches are not meant to do all of that heavy lifting, but it still needs doing. We often just don't want to start in The Avengers. We want to start with Iron Man.

Both things need to be done, but those interactions are not necessarily best achieved when you first meet a character. Young Bruce Wayne looking up from his dead parents in Crime Alley to see Superman floating overhead isn't the best way to focus on Batman.

You're right, we need that wealth of story, both individual and ensemble. I'm just saying that the ensemble is often a bad place to start for our Champions because we want to build to those interactions and focus on the individual character at their beginning.

Retillin11 votes

But the thing is, the reason Batman and Superman did not met right away is because they did not exist in a SHARED world. 1952 Superman 76. Batman first showed up in 1939. That's 13 years. But you know what, they have been re-coned many times to met BEFORE they were even "super heroes". Why? Because character interaction IS the best way to tell a story. X-Men/Fantastic Four/Doom Patrol/ect.. all started as a group story. There are many ways to do it. It allows more depth with one character viewing another, instead of just a blank slate (Bard/Ekko) saying the character is "mysterious" "street rat". Hell, I've seen from Rioters on the boards that Ekko isn't even a regualr street rat and that his parents are live and he sees them often.

I'm not saying each character launch needs another champion in it. What I'm saying is this: I don't care about blank states. I want meaning in a character. None of this "mysterious"-ness that we see. Hell we had to find out from outside the story that the weapon Ekko uses is a clock hand. You can not say you wish to focus on an individual character, if there is nothing you show us at their beginning. If this is your model, these releases then only giving information on a champion during a Q&A, then your story method is failed.

Sneak Dog9 votes

Right now, much of the content we have been providing is the opening chapter of one character's personal story.

So what happens if a characters story somehow gets finished? Do they go the way of the Trundle or will you actually just start up a 'book 2' so to say?

RiotRiotJaredan11 votes

The only way a character's story would finish would be if they die. A character will have numerous stories that make up their life. Just as is the case for a person.

Grand Viper14 votes

{quoted}

The only way a character's story would finish would be if they die. A character will have numerous stories that make up their life. Just as is the case for a person.

Again, I disagree.

Not every story ends with the main character's death.

Sneak Dog14 votes

Then I am now legitimately confused why you ever retconned old Trundle. The old reason was that his story was done. I could understand that, apparently you didn't want to start a new story. I wholly disagreed with that and did not find it an acceptable reason to remove a champion from the game, but I understood it. Perhaps then because he was a niche character? But there's well over a hundred champions, that shouldn't be a reason either. I imagine Urgot and Bard don't appeal to everyone either...

...

So Trundle got removed for no reason? That doesn't sound like Riot either... Biscuits. This is why I hate his retcon so much. He got removed from the game and now I don't even understand the reasoning anymore.

Sneak Dog10 votes

Oh, hey, I found out why I am so utterly confused:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3307295&page=65#post36508044

You guys are right: Trundle’s old story was compelling. It was a strong arc with a cathartic ending that finished the story of Trundle’s involvement with his tribe. The thing is, that story was effectively finished. Any evolution from the point at which Trundle decides to doom his tribe felt arbitrary when we discussed it internally.

It is literally the reason why Trundle got retconned. His story was finished, so he got removed from the entire game. Are you now telling me, after two years, old Trundle shouldn't have gotten retconned? I sure as heck hope so, because if you are, then you should be looking for a solution. I do not expect you to just say 'too bad your favorite champion got removed for no good reason, oh well'. That does not sound like the attitude of Riot to me.

Get on this, you will win back my faith. Won't be easy though, because replacing the new troll for the old one is also removing a character from the game. Until then, I shall remain faithless, with good reason. (Well, and you should be consistent. Please don't change a characters core, Xerath looks like a politician ascendant in Unbound, but that seems entirely fixable?)

FatedTitan12 votes

If this is the case, I'd really like old Trundle back.

Impetual6 votes

This quote doesn't really make sense, Jaredan, please explain it:

"You state that we have avoided some of those interactions to drive towards the generic. In fact we do that to drive towards the individual character. The strength of that character will decide if that experience is good enough. If the character is not strong enough, putting him or her next to a stronger character won't solve that problem at all."

To me, this means almost nothing, and is kinda classified as a non-answer. It's just fluff.

In other words, you're just bullshitting us.

RiotRiotJaredan9 votes

Let me clarify.

We don't make decisions to drive towards generic ideas. Looking at it from the other angle, the logic is that having more than one Champion in an introductory story would make that story more unique. I disagree completely.

We make introductory stories to focus on individual characters and their strengths.

If a character isn't strong enough to carry that introductory story on his/her own, putting that Champ next to another Champion isn't going to solve the problems with the character. That's a separate matter.

TL;DR: Putting a Champ next to another Champ in an intro story is not inherently better.

I'm not sure how that can be interpreted to the point of needing a derogatory accusation.

Hellioning12 votes

It's also not inherently worse. Putting a champ into another champ's intro story might make the story better. You, yourself, agreed with this when you said that Rengar was a good fit for Gnar's intro story.

The problem I have with a lot of the recent intro stories is that they don't really tell us anything about the champion. Kalista's intro story is more about the swordwife than Kalista herself, Bard's is more about that village elder, Amumu's story is more about the person telling the story, etc.

Considering that they don't give us any more information than we could already get by reading the short-form bios or watching the video or listening to their voice chat, it's kind annoying that you decided to make that your standard for intro writing.

Sodo Mojo11 votes

I'll believe it when I see it, been waiting too long for a resolution. Your grand ideas mean nothing if we don't see it.

Impetual18 votes

Jaredan, I have a potential issue with your narrative model:

If the narrative staff are forced into product teams in order to write champions lore to fit around what the other teams are doing, like you are implying, it's pretty obvious why the lore of League of Legends has stopped developing and has had a drop off in quality.

It seems like lore of Runeterra is being written to fit around new/retconned champion concepts. That's pretty stupid!

With this new lore approach, the cohesive world that was Runeterra is perverted. You've started writing the world around the champions, rather than writing the champions_ into_ the world.

That design approach makes for a pretty shoddy and inconsistent world, which is exactly what Retconned Runeterra feels like. Why care about the game, if the world doesn't matter?

It's pretty obvious now why the only narrative content we get these days is champions that are newly released, or those that are getting retconned.

Riot just isn't supporting lore for champion's that don't need updates/retcons like they used to, they're just being forgotten! (in terms of lore at least)

I seriously can't remember the last time I saw Riot produce lore for a pre-existing champion that developed their story without retconning it. It was probably back in Season 2...maybe 3....that's pretty sad. Heck, even Amumu's lore was pretty much simplified to the point of ridiculousness,

Heck, just check out Amumu's new lore:

"Amumu is a diminutive, animated cadaver who wanders the world, trying to discover his true identity. He rose from an ancient Shuriman tomb bound in corpse wrappings with no knowledge of his past, consumed with an uncontrollable sadness."

That's just lazy.

BaddieMcNoSkill11 votes

If the narrative staff are forced into product teams in order to write champions lore to fit around what the other teams are doing, like you are implying, it's pretty obvious why the lore of League of Legends has stopped developing and has a drop off in quality.

It seems like lore of Runeterra is being written to fit around new/retconned champion concepts. That's pretty stupid!

This has been a problem since the initial retconning of the lore. I quote directly from the original post in which Runaan discussed the retcon in which she says:

We believe in a philosophy in which story should spring from the characters naturally, not from a very arbitrary plot built around them. Character drives plot.

While this is true to a certain extent, it doesn't work at all the way that they imagine it does. They think that simply making characters and putting them into a world drives the plot forward. You have some Bard thingie in the mountains blowing a flute and saving people, (I honestly have no idea who or what Bard is and what he has to do with the stars. I literally have no idea based on what little information that has been given to us.) you have a boy who created a short time-rewinding machine in Zaun, you have the queen of the Graboids (see Tremors) in the deserts of Shurima, but no overarching story that connects all of these entities anymore. The Institute of War did that, but then they took it out of existence, past, present, and future.

"Character drives plot" the way I understand it is most exemplified by the writings of George R.R. Martin and HBO's The Wire. Both of these stories have deep investigation of each character and their motivations and the history of the land that they live in. Westeros is a land that has been plagued by war and constant contest over the Iron Throne. Rebellions have risen, royalty has been killed, betrayal has taken place, and grudges are held by every party involved, even those associated with the winners. Baltimore is a city with a long history of drug violence, ineffective police methods, thieving stevedores, corrupt politicians, misguided educational philosophies, and immoral newspaper journalists.

In both of these stories, the decisions of one can affect all. You don't get that in League of Legends lore. If Viktor sends his Battlecast army to attack Piltover, why should Rammus and Ashe give a fuck? If Swain defeats Jarvan IV on the fields of battle, what does it matter to Ekko and Lissandra?

THE WIRE AND GAME OF THRONES SPOILERS AHEAD

The difference is that when Robb Stark declares himself King in the North, all the characters care. Danerys cares because the kingdom she wants to retake is at war with itself. The Lannisters care because they want to retain control of the throne. The Manderlys care because they have always been treated well by the North and have always had great respect for the Starks. The only party that "doesn't care" is the Night's Watch because they are mandated to be impartial, and they they still care because Jon Snow is Robb Stark's half brother so when he finds out he's stabbed to death at his uncle's wedding (which is yet another event that changes all of Westeros and the rules of hospitality that was rooted in the decision of Robb to marry someone he wasn't promised to) it matters to him.

When Omar goes to exact his revenge on the Barksdale crew for killing his lover, he kills the one person in the crew who the Baltimore Police had criminal evidence on, thus making them unable to try to press him and take them up the ladder. The Barksdale crew cares because they're losing muscle. The East Side cares because if the Barksdale crew has less muscle, they have more leverage to proposition them to get on their drug package.

Or when Ziggy kills George Gleekas. Ziggy goes in for a confession so as far as homicide is concerned the case is open and closed but they neglect to tell the Major Crimes unit which means that the Greeks to clean up the shop where he was killed of all evidence, flushing drugs down the drain, burning paperwork, all before they can raid the place for evidence. Because Ziggy goes to jail, the Greeks use that as leverage on his father Frank Sobotka who was going to cooperate with the police to take down the Greeks in exchange for a nicer prison for Ziggy except that Nicholas Sobotka, out of love for his cousin, begs Frank to go to the Greeks to help get Ziggy out of jail. But, because FBI Special Agent Fitz is working with the Major Crimes unit, he reports to his superiors when he has a new witness. But his superiors tell the Greeks that Frank is going to rat on them because the Greeks are an FBI asset that they don't want in jail ultimately leading to the murder of Frank Sobotka.

Spoilers Over

I conclude with a reiteration of my main argument: The problem is that simply putting characters in a world is not enough to further a plot. Not only must you give deep consideration to the characters personality, history, motivations, relations, and location of a character for a character to drive plot, but you must also have an overarching reason for characters to care about what happens to each other. If Ahri disappeared from the face of Runeterra who in the world (literally) would care? If Garen disappeared, who would care outside of Demacia and Noxus?

GenoXx59 votes

It's not a Narrative team. Futhermore not even a senior guy for wirting. They just have champion teams. Gypsylord is responsible for Ekko's lore..... Sadly...

Chromatic Eagle59 votes

I know you're just explaining facts, and I'm not attacking you, but that isn't an excuse for Riot. Even by post-retcon standards, we've had Rek'Sai and the Shurima events add more to the setting, and Sion's relaunch promo. Even Kalista was sort of tied to the Harrowing event. Bard and Ekko just have vague videos, where at least Bard had a little more info with constellations.

Even by their own standards, they're not living up to expectations, and we keep getting upset with it.

LoLKiru9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=khkWEbWQ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-05-16T19:08:37.669+0000)

I know you're just explaining facts, and I'm not attacking you, but that isn't an excuse for Riot. Even by post-retcon standards, we've had Rek'Sai and the Shurima events add more to the setting, and Sion's relaunch promo. Even Kalista was sort of tied to the Harrowing event. Bard and Ekko just have vague videos, where at least Bard had a little more info with constellations.

Even by their own standards, they're not living up to expectations, and we keep getting upset with it.

Its also worth noting Xerath and Azir had two short stories (one dedicated to each of their perspectives). So its not like things don't happen, they just happen at such a pace that we're left with all this downtime with next to no information.

Vesper11725 votes

and they happen in secret, hidden places that are hard to find because of 'technical issues'. Somehow a company that made League can't have a textbox hold more than a few paragraphs of text in their client.

I Main Swain24 votes

I would literally write his lore for them for free. their lore is absolute garbage now, both champion and overall. they went from having a nice tied together world and everything had a purpose to just a generic game with no rhyme or reason and minimal story. what they need is something to replace the league of legends as to what the game is about, something to give a reason to all these champions being amassed together in battle. I propose (and have proposed a few times already) that we make it an actual world war. most champions have a loyalty, although there are a few that are rogues of sort that don't belong anywhere - in this world or in the void. tbh, not sure what to do with those. however, they could do a sort of clan system within league where everyone is placed in a nation based on their play style before level 30 (play style meaning champions they gravitate towards). they can change nations if their play style changes. and, on the league client, they can have stats on which nations are "winning" the war (aka, best win rates). at the end of each season, members of the top nation could be given a little reward (probably an icon or ward). personally, I think it would work great. it would give the players a feeling of actually being a part of runeterra and encourage people to improve their skills, as wukong has been begging them to for ages.

Jeddy0175 votes

{quoted}

what they need is something to replace the league of legends as to what the game is about, something to give a reason to all these champions being amassed together in battle.

Problem is - Riot doesn't want that.They just want the game portion to be another Super Smash Bros. (no narrative reason or explanations for the battles or why champs are fighting each other) while they do their own thing with the lore.Let's be honest,I feel it's already been the SSB way for a majority of the playerbase even before the retcon. The SSB route would be fine if they were actually doing something with the lore itself.

Doctor Ivellius23 votes

Considering even Smash Bros. has a narrative (it's a kid playing with toys), Riot's fallen behind even that.

Ace Access 10 votes

bringing back the institute of war and keeping it around till they have something better seems like a good idea to start with

I Main Swain16 votes

you would think so, wouldn't you? apparently it's a good idea to sell your house before you've bought a new one. now league is living in their car

GoForkUrself12 votes

I propose (and have proposed a few times already) that we make it an actual world war. most champions have a loyalty, although there are a few that are rogues of sort that don't belong anywhere

To me that is one of their biggest problems. They tried to do that. You end up with boring lore like Trundle the Ice Troll just so he can have a faction during the Freljord lore stretch. The old Trundle (as best as I can remember it) was a paragon to his people, a race that suffered from a curse that made them hideous. All suffered this fate for generations except Trundle with his extraordinary regenerative properties. He volunteers to have a witch doctor concentrate the entire village curse into himself, and carries the burden alone; his flesh constantly rotting off and rebuilding anew, only to rot away again. I think he enters the League of Legends in hopes to learn how to remove the curse entirely.

Far better than "I'm an ice troll and I'm going to follow this evil lady because she promises me a shiny club to bash my foes in." They took a true "champion" of a character and made him a goon.

I liked the old formula for making champion lore.

XXX was a ------- who was known for -------. One day -------- happpened. Now XXX joins the League of Legends in hopes to -------. The formula can be deviated from for lore purposes, such as a mysterious Mordekaiser, but when lore just gives me no inkling as to why my champion fights on Summoner's Rift, the champion feels like an empty shell.

Starlighte44 votes

Regretably, Narrative won't even respond to thought-provoking, well thought-out threads, let alone ones that directly attack what they're doing.

The issue is this: Narrative believes release videos count as lore. The videos done for Bard, Jinx, and Ekko, are all things that they believe are worthwhile replacements of long, texty lore.

What they fail to realize is that this is true for the greater community of LoL players who don't actually give a shit about the lore. For the small minority of league players, who do value the lore highly and weigh it equal to gameplay balance,_ long texty lores are EXACTLY what appeals to them._

Simply put, Narrative doesn't care about their actual fanbase... They only care about moving product. And this... this is why all lore going forward is going to be tied to reworks/VUs/new champions. If they can't sell something off it, Riot's Narrative isn't going to make it.

Sad.... Sad but true. And that's not even covering the worst part of the fact that Riot is unwilling to even ENGAGE in a dialogue with their community.

Ulquiorra99520 votes

I am fine with lore in form of a video... As long as it does character justice. All these videos create lot of questions and none of them get answered.

Bard: Noxians attack an unknown village, because... well, they are Noxians, and Noxus is grimdark and evil. But hey - turns out they are after the artefact... which we also know little to nothing about. But apparently the artefact is meaningful enough to attract the celestial wanderer known as Bard who comes and carries it to the top of the mountain. Good thing Noxians can't climb mountains, otherwise they could've just grabbed it later. And it does nothing to establish Bard as a character.

Ekko: Ekko defends what seems to be a memorial, but we can't be sure. Memorial is dedicated to some kids who we didn't hear a word about, ergo we can't give two fucks over who they were or why are they so important to Ekko. Ekko is defending said memorial from a big guy (we can tell he is evil because he is bulky and Urgot-lookalike) who attacks it because... well, Noxians/Zaunites are douchebags who kill puppies and destroy memorials in their spare time? And the video is dedicated to showcasing Ekko's abilities rather than doing stupid things like expanding the story.

Jinx? Her video is fun and does not explain anything - and is accompanied by an actual lore entry, so it's OK.

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