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What's "wrong" with Irelia ? Representation and general League of Legends universe coherence.

Ganondorf·3/27/2018, 11:44:28 AM·16 votes·8,018 views

I initially posted this on another topic, but I'd like to know what are the justifications made behind the decisions taken by Riot. So, it would be interesting to know what are the thoughts of people (and maybe the guys in charge of those changes) apart from "she's way better now" or "She's not asian", and I'll show you why. Beginning with some things to keep in mind through the reading. Here, I'll try to handle issues inherent to the LoL universe about diversity. It might sound like real life issues that you'll quickly identify, but the point here is all about the universe cohesiveness.

So guys, let's review all this stuff calmly ok. summoner 13 Ionia has a heavy cultural background linked to Asian culture. I mean, there's this stuff about Greece, but it's nowhere to be found on any character or structure from Ionia, like, not at all. In fact, it was stated that the name was taken from Ancient Greek and the location of Ionia and its islands are kind of similar to Greece/Turkey. Everything around is Asian looking, from names to culture. (martial arts, setting, clothes, people, etc etc…) If there's cultural background linked to Greece in the LoL universe it's on Mt. Targon. Let’s set some things clear, beginning with the quality of art before any of you has the urge to tell me it's ten times better etc. Let it be real clear. It's simply beautiful and that's totally not the point here. But I’ll come back to it later. The most important thing here is ethnicity. Irelia is a great warrior and a proud Guard Captain. Ionia is written all over her body and personality . And there, she's not so Asian looking.

What does it mean ?

Be careful, I didn't say she's ugly. She's a beautiful woman. Why saying this ? If we bring smt about appearance, and here about ethnicity, ppl tend to think that because we think it's inappropriate it means she's ugly. See what I mean ? So, the point is that she is supposed to look Asian, and she doesn't. WHY is she supposed to be "Asian"? Is this supposed to be a real problem ? Non-Asian ppl cannot be part of Ionia ? Why "Asia" while it doesn't exist in the LoL universe ? So many questions, right. It does, in fact, matter. It's about ethnicity and representation. It has to be consistent. How many girls in there are actually "asian" ? From Ionia, we have : Akali, Irelia, Sona (before being adopted), Karma, Syndra. To this, we can add Ahri and Xayah, but they are Vastayan. (Ahri has a lot of asian features due to what she represents.) There's also Soraka, but it's a special case. So, among them, how many are asian looking ? Well... It's kind of inconsistent in fact, even worse if we add skins to the list. Akali is the only one to be spared by that... hmmm actually, Nurse Akali is borderline not so asian. She's next on the VGU list, we'll see. Something tells me that it won't be so different from what is happening there... Characters with their skins is the best way to see who they are and we should be able to recognize them by their facial features. A lot of things have to be taken into account. The artist, the theme, the character etc. Old splashart, new splashart, old skins, new skins. It's hard to keep in line how it should be done, and VGU with splasharts update is the opportunity to set things. For instance, Sona. On some, you could tell she's kinda asian looking and on some others not. This is due to the things listed up there. So, for Irelia, as she got her VGU, why would you change her into a non-asian character while there's a few of them ? We have 49 female characters and nearly half of them are white looking girls. The other half is monsters, creatures and a few girls from here and there that are non-white. And now we got this. An opportunity to affirm looks and diversity but instead we get Megan Fox. Just before Irelia VGU, we got Kai'sa. A shuriman girl. But guess what, she looks like Scarlett Johansson. What are the other girls from there ? Taliyah, Sivir and maybe Nidalee, since she's from the Kumungu jungle just below the Shurima desert. All three of them are actually Middle East looking, even if Sivir has some skins compromising that. Why is Kai'Sa like this then ? Her skin is white because of Void light, but it doesn't explain why she has no Shuriman (Middle East) features. What were the choices behind her design ? Is it a mere omission or was it done on purpose ? Why ? All tribes from the Shuriman desert aren't supposed to look like Middle East people... ?

That's the problem here. For diversity you need to take care about those features that define people. You can't claim that Irelia is now different and it helps """diversity"""... Guys...

Just look. Here we have Irelia Frostblade prior to the VGU. She has apparent asian features. https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/12/7/1521997041-frostblade-irelia.jpg

And here, the new Frostblade. THIS is more unique or just like "Irelia" ? https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/12/7/1521997192-irelia-frost.jpg

Aviator is cute, but... here. It's not even like Irelia. It could be a Lux skin with this look, she's just "like" her. https://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2018/12/7/1521997430-splashlux.jpg

Infiltrator and Nightblade are the only skins where she has some asian features. Different artist ? Omission ? Why not affirm those features on the whole set of skins ?

Ingame model is kinda "Asian" looking tho, it's ok here.

So what ? You can't deny that there are issues on the subject. I took time to idenitfy each of them. She was more "Asian" before and now she is just victim from "Same Face". Quality of art is undeniably better, but it seems that the artist is only able to draw beautiful Holywood white women or was asked to draw her like this. Some people are satisfied with this, because, well, those characters are gorgeous and nothing else matter. But since Riot is determined to provide us with a high quality universe, they should be careful about that kind of stuff. Asia doesn't exist in the LoL universe ofc but Ionia is clearly an equivalent representation of it. Same for the Freljord and its heavy Scandinavian cultural background. Piltover and Zaun are an equivalence of the Industrial Revolution cultural influence. Shurima and its heavy Egyptian aspect. So on and so forth... Ionia is "Asian". Xin Zhao, Master Yi, Jhin, Lee Sin, Yasuo, Shen etc etc. You just can't say it's a coincidence at this point...

I love this VGU and Irelia is one of the best champion with an awesome background. Representation and the overall consistency of the LoL universe deserve to be respected. Irelia should look asian.

I'd like to see Riot being more careful about this because they are doing an excellent job lately on the LoL universe and things shouldn't be made mindlessly on this side. I'd like to know what are the elements that led to this. I hope you'll understand and share your thoughts on the subject. Opinions are relevant to a certain extent, like I could say that she has a fantastic booty, but don't tell me "I don't like her being asian and she's never been asian". We have to know "why" she's not asian and how. Here we need to discuss about "facts" and consistency, because it's not an issue exclusively attached to Irelia like I said earlier.

So, let's begin, tell me what you think. summoner 13

42 Comments

Felaze3/28/2018, 6:26:35 AM6 votes

Your coherent and well put together thoughts on the matter are so god damn lovely and I think that I’m head over heels in love with your ability to break down and distill content while being able to deliver clear, eloquent prose.

I whole heartedly agree! Irelia has always been a character who I thought was Asian, just like Xin, Akali, Shen, etc. so having the rework make her read as less Asian was a little hard to comprehend, because I thought that that was a big part of her identity. I think Riot did a great job with the rework, as you’ve stated, and in some of the skins (mostly Infiltrator) she carries forth the Asian look to her, but I wish it was executed better. I’ve always been one to pick on Riot for not doing enough cohesion checks, and this is just another instance in which every iteration of her (IE: Skins) doesn’t look like the same person, and it makes things feel a little off in terms of the direction they were going.

Aeszarck3/27/2018, 3:53:23 PM4 votes

I don't think Irelia "should" look Asian any more than she shouldn't look Asian. I don't think her race is a key element to her character. Additionally, I do think it's hard to tell with this rework whether she is or isn't. My main point though is that I don't care too much either way about Asian representation in League. I say this as a half-Asian. If Irelia were to be depicted as Asian, I'd be cool with that, but I'm fine with her not being depicted as Asian too. I care about her gameplay, whether she looks cool and pretty, and her backstory. What race she resembles affects none of that.

Johnny El Rojo3/27/2018, 12:52:18 PM3 votes

She DOES looks asian. The only problem is that a feature like slanted eyes is difficult to come across in a painting, because for that you have to thin a lot the eyes. Is that why as an easy solution, specially with women, is eyeshadow, because that gives them that false sensation of slated eyes. Look at Ahri , for example. https://d181w3hxxigzvh.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Ahri_Splash_Tile_0.jpg

Her eyes aren't very slanted in the splah art, but still a little more in the game model. But in both you can appreciate the masive amount of eyeshadow to give that false sensation of slanted eyes. The problem with Irelia is that they seemed to reinforce the beauty of her eyes in the model and in the splash art, and so they needed to make them big. Is that why also they gave her a lot of eyeshadow in the splash art and the model. https://thegamersports.mundodeportivo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/nuevas-habilidades-de-Irelia.jpg

And also, about Kaisa , she does look middle eastern. At least arabian, if what I found about the typical facial tratis of arabs is true. https://lolstatic-a.akamaihd.net/frontpage/apps/prod/kaisa-reveal/es_ES/4b3ba0751b18398c0fe8d339207ba00a26309de1/assets/img/content/wallpaper/base-icon.jpg

"Arab Features = big eyes , arched eyebrows, dense eyelashes ,the Jaw tight (V) and small , long nose but The end of the nose is heading to the inside like the Falcon"

The only feature she seems to lack is the falcon like nose.

Proctopus3/28/2018, 12:37:12 PM3 votes

The Frostblade skin is very shocking to me, it was my favourite before but now she really looks like the evil queen in Snow White. Thy thicness is there but thy face no :p as always, great art, I think it'd be very good if it was Leblanc but yeah, it's Irelia, without really being her, a shame.

UomoAfide3/27/2018, 12:59:40 PM3 votes

TBH i personally think she looks more asian than her previous iteration in her base splash-arts.

Gapybo3/27/2018, 5:11:08 PM3 votes

To be completely honest Irelia never looks very Asian in any of the classic splash arts. The new one might actually be the most asian looking.

Detokze4/1/2018, 1:28:49 PM2 votes

This is some relevant things, even if it's not easy to explain yourself in this situation. I'd like to see you guys try to embarrass yourself getting to the issue while being the one in charge. I don't say that they shouldn't answer the question. It's just that it's obviously ""unfair"" to make an asian character into a white character while there's already plenty of them. You know how it ends, sadly. You don't even need to make all of this to prove your point actually. It doesn't matter for some and it matters for others. Reasons and stuff. But. There's in fact an issue and it was nice to see it being explained by someone with actual facts and stuff. People tend to stick to their opinion and won't try to understand the other. So, most of the time they won't explain their point with relevant informations about the subject itself and you'll just have to deal with it. If it was only about Irelia, yeah, it would be unfortunate and that's it, you could still make your point relevant. There are other characters afflicted by the same issue.

For instance, I think that Resistance Illaoi is kinda odd in a way. She doesn't share the same facial features on her basic splashart. She has this exact weird pointy nose that yall talking about and it just seems off to me. I think this is the same issue. While the artist has enough skill to do this, you wouldn't struggle to make a nose. Ok, someone actually said on the topic that it's different from a down angle of view, but still, it's off. I'm not into creative work and all but still have eyes and I can see that it's a bit off. Details are "details" but sometimes they make THIS difference you're talking about. Guys, you can't mess up with details and then assuming that it's fiiine let's go. Irelia or another character part of something else than the white archetype have actual facile features inherent to what they belong to. That's how it works, there. That's why I said you didn't need to explain yourself unless people don't know what other people look like.. waittt lol. Anyone here can give you their pov but it won't anwser your question and it's a tough one. IF it's not what you expect youd say "Is that right?" and dare answering to that without being controversial or something else.

Proctopus3/31/2018, 8:34:35 AM2 votes

I think a lot of people here are getting it wrong, even if everything is explained clearly. Here, it isn't the quality of the art or the champion that is criticized. No, as said before, the art is gorgeous, clearly made by artist who know what they're doing, you can see it with the colors and the shapes. I draw myself and yes, I can tell that the level is over nine thousand, I'm not even close to making something like this, there it's said. But yeah, once again, that's not the POINT here. Something that some seems to miss.

Art? Gorgeous. Animation? Super on point. Story? Heck yes, can't wait for the lore, I know Riot will do a great job. And clearly, they always do great when it comes to reworks, slowly but surely they instored a coherent world with coherent character. So, what's the problem here? For sure, yeah, it's just a game and Irelia looks beautiful, and her animation is great. But that's not what the problem is. The problem is that her face was made with white girl's concept, the nose is clearly the most striking features. If you think Ionia is not clearly inspired by Asia, then I don't know what to tell you. I guess I should say something along the lines "it's your opinion alright" but I just can't, you're just voluntarily hiding your eyes here. It's like saying Shurima isn't inspired by arabic world, with character like Nasus and Renekton who are clearly Egiptian gods, inspired by Egiptian mythologie.

Anyway, back to topic because I'm getting lost in the infinite debate that started here. I said it before, jokingly a bit I admit, but the Frostblade skin is shocking. Yes she's gorgeous. Yes she has a nice ass. Yes the art is gorgeous. But it doesn't mean we should prevent ourselves from criticizing... As we're all clients of Riot because I'm saying that, acknowledging the fact that a lot of people bought things with money on this game, skins, emote, whatever (I'm not saying everyone did again, just a vast majority) we are allowed to point out things that seems wrong to us. Frostblade Irelia doesn't look like Irelia, being it phisically AND mentally. The comparison to the Leblanc's splash is striking. Her nose and shin are so pointy, it's probably what cut Swain's arm. Again, am not saying features like this are bad. No, it's beautiful. However it doesn't even look like her splash art. Okay, sometimes skins influence a bit the appearance, but as far as I know, Taliyah has a winter related skin too and her features don't become those of Scarlet Johansson or Megan Fox on it.

There is a problem, it would be nice to discuss about it instead of "just being happy because we get something." Yes it's good. But the choices are questionnable. Also adding this but I insisted a lot on the Frostblade skin since it's my favourite, but some others have issues too. I really don't like the face redone on Order of the Lotus (seriously it's really weird to look at) and well as said before, aviator skin is very cute but the whole face just isn't Irelia anymore.

Proctopus4/3/2018, 7:50:30 PM2 votes

Hey there, back again on this topic now after the new lores for Ionia just came out, as well as the dev diary video that I highly recommend if you're interested in the design and overall world of League of Legends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xRvnOQVAPQ

I won't write a Bible, but it's just to clear some things out that even the developers of Riot confirmed.

Just like Noxus, we get information about culture, design, everyday life etc. Everything is really beautiful... And really Asian inspired. The characters depicted are all very Asian looking, the overall "do not hurt and stay pacifist" mentality is obviously inspired by religion and spiritual culture that you find in Asia. So there, you have it, Ionia doesn't really exist yeah, but it's heavily influenced by Asian countries.

Now that this is said, don't know if you checked Irelia new lore (that I highly recommend to read, loved it) she now has a full name and official family root : Xan Irelia. Following the ancestral and very proud cultures of family in Asia, Irelia is clearly confirmed as a proud Asian woman! There it is, Riot confirmed!

Now as you know, all that needed to be pointed out has been said, it makes me ask myself even more question about her appearance and the choice of features.

Bonnìe4/5/2018, 10:58:47 PM2 votes

this was my issue the moment i saw new irelia.

i was hoping they would keep or atleast better express her east asian/ionian heritage in her features

i know there is a multitude of features women can have across asia, but, with the features already in game for all the women (mostly white)

i thought they'd express those that haven't been explored yet.

i dont get how people can understand humans like playing humans or humanoid champions, but when it comes to their facial features reflecting a real world ethnic group, thats suddenly too far and unnecessary.

diversity is good. representation is good. for the sake of interesting variety.

even soraka lulu and poppy get turned into white girls for star guardian.

i was bored the second i saw kai'sa too.

Hammermancer3/27/2018, 12:37:52 PM2 votes

Oriental people are really hard to depict in 3d graphics because their skin color and facial structure always makes them come off as either white or latino like 90% of the time I don't even realize a character is depicted as asian

Hell go play dynasty warriors and tell me that 2/3rds of the roster don't look like white vikings as depicted by squaresoft

ok there's another one, square is known for its wide range of characters... do you not think that a japanese game design firm would default naturally to asian looking characters?

Well they are, in ff7 I think the only non-asian protagonists were Cid, Barret and cait-sith

but cloud and Vincent are asian, based off of the pop culture styles of the time (Yeah square used to be really good about that)

Xin kinda looks like Danny Trejo a little... At least as much as Jayce looks like Matt Damon

Honestly it's not even racism, many people simply don't notice the asian characters in gaming are actually asian because the way that lower def games are limited in displaying this. It's unintended, similar to early face recognition software having issues with black people's faces.. it's just technology

Detokze3/30/2018, 11:59:16 AM2 votes

It would be nice to know what the devs are thinking about this, it's usually something that you wouldn't like to talk about because it's hard to explain it. So, yeah, that's a problem but the only ones to know and that have the responsibility behind this choice are the devs. Devs are far from being safe concerning reliability of content, like, they're also responsible for plot holes and bad design when it happens. Community is here to let em know, but it's nice to have some feedback on the matter. It's nice and all, but the question will remain unanswerd untill they're up for a chat. If they dare so.. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

VelvetCrotch3/30/2018, 2:56:43 PM2 votes

That's again a reminder for me that her current FB irelia splash doesn't look serious enough.

In her old splash she looks so bada*s, rdy to fight and looks like sharp ice shards. Current one looks too flirty and Kardashian-like. :/

The Whamboozler3/28/2018, 7:05:02 AM1 votes

Ok... I'm just gonna put this out there.

I'm pretty sure league's art is heavily influenced by anime, and anime is FULL of asian girls that look white as all hell. There are blonde-haired, white skinned anime girls a-plenty. League isn't so much under-representing races as not tossing in realistic portrayals of real-life races that might look jarring alongside big-eyed magical girls.

I do not envy the job of anyone in the art or character dev teams. Trying to make up characters without offending someone about something is nigh on IMPOSSIBLE. No matter how they made her, she'd piss someone off.

I don't even dislike the idea of a more obviously asian Irelia. I'm not against it at all. It would be pretty cool, in fact. But the art team gave us what they gave us and personally I think the new Irelia looks great and the way her model moves is freakin' gorgeous. I don't care how slanted her eyes are or what tone her skin is as long as she feels badass to play... and they nailed that. I'm not gonna take the Riot team to task for not representing things... they're just trying to make a video game.

I WILL however, take them to task over Kai'sa... because she is a boring train-wreck of lackluster design and failing to meet expectations.

rebelprincess013/27/2018, 1:49:13 PM1 votes

what if listen to this-this is insane "league is a FICTIONAL GAME" with "FICTIONAL CHARACTERS" who are portrayed in a "FICTIONAL LORE" with no correlation to the REAL world

so the correct answer is that she is Ionian git gud

OurLestrade3/27/2018, 12:18:29 PM1 votes

Yasuo doesn't look asian in game but he did in that HD climb video thing the other month. It's just a graphical thing.