Fiora's New Lore Overdoes the Patriarchy

Defin8lyNotScott·Oct 12, 2015·20 votes·3,640 views

Dear Riot,

Previous to the new Fiora lore, female Demacian champions were all writen as admired and respected. They were acknowledged as competent and valuable members of the Demacian military and society, with jobs and lives of their own. Lestara Buvelle was the head of her house, and Sona and Vayne (as the last of their house) were presumed to also have that standing. When I joined the community there were (and still are) more female Demacian champions than male champions. The male champions were friends with the female champions and treated them well, without being condescending. Due to the example of Lux and Quinn, I extrapolated that women were not uncommon in the Demacian military. After all, only two of the male champions are tied closely with the army, Xin's job is in the palace and Lucian is a Purifier. I didn't envision a 50/50 ratio, but I at least thought it wasn't unusual or uncommon.

Given this textual evidence, I had assumed that Demacia had some form of equality. Not perhaps complete or total equality, but a certain measure of it nonetheless. And I was glad. Glad to find a fantasy realm where women were given admiration, respect, value, as if it were a natural thing. It was unlike the many patriarchal fantasy realms I'd seen before. I see now that I was mistaken. I'm sad for the loss, even if it was only my imagination.

The endemic sexism you portrayed implies a lot of things to me, and I'm not looking forward to them:

Kayle and Poppy are no longer honored guests and allies, but useful charity cases.

Lux is no longer a decorated war hero, but the army's mascot (in everyone's eyes if not in truth).

Jarvan and Garen are either sexist like everyone else, or despite being “The Exemplar” and “...the paradigm to which these leaders are compared,” they have such different attitudes from the general populace that nobody bothers to try and emulate them in this area.

Vayne is no longer a “grim warrior” with a tragic past, but a hysterical female driven mad by the deaths of her loved ones.

Lucian and Senna were not a team of equals, but a commander and his subordinate.

Sona is pitied for the lack of a man in her life to take care of her, and is constantly under pressure to marry.

Shyvanna is either seen as “not a woman” because of her draconic blood, or is seen as another charity case the prince took in out of pity.

Quinn's dream of becoming a knight was doubly impossible because she's a woman, and even now people think her advancement is due to something other than her skill and determination.

If you were attemting a societal statement, I applaund your effort, but I'm not such a fan of the execution. At this point the majority of people know that treating women as inferior is inappropriate, but not everyone knows how to treat them as equals. I found the silent example I imagined before Fiora's new lore was published far more powerful than the ham-handed cautionary tale it has turned into.

If you were trying to add a darker element to Demacian culture, I'd like to point out that Demacia already has many dark aspects without adding on a needless patriarchy. I quite enjoyed how Fiora's new lore touched on the harsh Demacian justice system. If the Demacian justice system is truly seen as crueler than even the Noxians', I would love to see that explored. Alternately there is the lock-step, hive-mind aspect of their culture where “Demacian ideals” are ingrained so firmly into each individual that diverging from societal standards is difficult if not impossible without some outside catalyst. Or the fact that they place duty above every personal desire, above the good of individuals (or even groups), above the good of their children (in the case of Lux). Lastly, we already know that Demacia is dedicated to erradicating “evil”, but what is their definition of evil? That alone could make for some horrifying territory to explore.

Thank you for your time.

75 Comments

TurquoiseYoshiOct 12, 201512 votes

Some of your explanations take this a bit too far. First of all, the different classes of life probably have different morals and different uses for women. I can see your point on Lux, as she may as well be the army's mascot, and maybe Jarvan/Garen. However, the others are pretty off.

Kayle/Poppy: Both are foreigners and are likewise respected. Someone you don't understand is far more dangerous and spooky than someone that you see regularly at things.

Vayne: Nobody in Demacia probably liked her in the first place, since she was basically a less sexy MF. Not much is implied from learning that sexism exists in a world for a character like Vayne.

Lucian: Lower classes tend to have more respect for minorities, and Lucian probably wouldn't go so far to save someone who he just saw as a subordinate.

Sona: Nothing has ever made it look like she's pitied.

Shyvana: She's a fucking dragon. She'll eat your ass if you try any bullshit with her.

Quinn: The first part has some truth to it, but people probably realized that she advanced in the army due to things other than luck.

Ebonmaw DragonOct 12, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Shyvana: She's a fucking dragon. She'll eat your ass if you try any bullshit with her.

She is a HALF human, not a dragon.

TurquoiseYoshiOct 12, 20155 votes

She will still eat your ass. It's not like that half human part will magically protect me if she gets pissed.

Ebonmaw DragonOct 12, 20154 votes

{quoted}

She will still eat your ass. It's not like that half human part will magically protect me if she gets pissed.

At least Im a real dragon, not like that ugly abomination of the nature.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20151 votes

You might be right about some of my predictions. However...

Kayle I grant you, she might be willing to overlook the sexism to work with the state closest to her standards of justice. But Poppy... Do you really see Poppy putting up with that nonsense on her part or anybody else's? She might accept the invitation at first, but after a few weeks of enduring/witnessing the level of sexism we see in Fiora's new lore I can't see her doing anything but catching a fast horse back to Bandle City.

Vayne - If people really think of her as off her rocker, without some form of equality (or a male defender) someone would have slapped her in an asylum by now to get access to her money (distant relative, family retainer). That sort of thing was happening HERE even in the 1800s (or more recently depending on location) and Demacia seems set further in the past than that.

Lucian - It's true you find more equality in lower ranks, but that's usually because they can't afford to enforce the same standards their richer counterparts can. Still, Lucian may have been unusually progressive.

Sona - Currently, no, she is not pitied. Her previous independence is part of my argument that this sexism is a NEW development. Who knows what will happen once she is updated to fit with Fiora's current lore? I don't want to see Sona reduced, but when she's a voiceless noblewoman with a large amount of wealth... I can easily envision her higher-ups saying something along the lines of "Sona, you need to start providing heirs so that your house doesn't DIE OUT." (Same for Vayne, with the possibility of a forced marriage if she's declared non compos mentis.)

Shyvana - She is a dragon with rage issues, and people are canonically terrified of her on sight, but habit DOES creep in. And considering the harsh Demacian justice System she needs to be careful. Even as the Prince's own guest she can't murder indiscriminately without repercussions.

Quinn - If you look at how recently women were considered to have earned their status "on their backs" in modern history, my point is still valid. I don't deny that her superiors and people she works with directly will know the truth. But outside observers will be making assumptions and whispering rumors. And still my question is: how can such a military-focused country (with women in the military) be so sexist? Do you really send your women to fight and DIE, serve with them by your side, watch them bleed for you and with you (and ON you), possibly even accept orders from them, and still CONSIDER THEM SO MUCH LESSER?

TurquoiseYoshiOct 12, 20153 votes

Poppy: Normally people are pretty nice to diplomats. I doubt that the sexism you seem to find really would affect her that much.

Vayne: My point is that she's already kinda over the law, so why does it matter what people see her as?

Lucian: Sure, it could be an edge case where Lucian was more progressive, but we don't have much to go off of.

Sona: As a public figure and very popular musician, who has even been heard by Swain of all people, she probably stays above the commoners. As for the higher-ups, well, you still get those kinds of comments today. It's not uncommon.

Shyvana: I feel like somebody as educated as Jarvan would be able to understand and control her rage pretty well.

Quinn: I really don't know what assumptions that outside observers could make that make any sort of sense. And if we're going with nonsensical insults to people, we still have that. Obama the Muslim. There's still dumb crap told to people that don't understand things and don't like certain people.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20152 votes

I feel as if I'm getting further and further into the realm of speculation, so please forgive me if it gets a bit out there...

Poppy - It's true that people are more polite to diplomats. But to a diplomat you see as having gotten the position out of pity instead of ability? And politeness is very dependent on culture. Think about a man from the 1800s encountering a woman from 2010. No matter how "polite" he tried to be she would find him pretty rude, and no matter how polite SHE tried to be he would find her not only rude but SHOCKING and OBSCENE. While there's not as much difference between Bandle City and Demacia as in the previous example, it would definitely be noticeable. And what about the sexism she witnesses? Does she continually object? Does she ignore it?

Vayne - In a patriarchy (as depicted here) men have the LEGAL POWER. Fiora's family if forcing her into the marriage. She WANTS to fight the duel, but she isn't legally allowed, it has to be her father. My point is that if enough people disapprove of her actions in a patriarchy they can find a way to legally stop her, unless she has a male supporter or more.

Lucian - Yeah, this one IS mostly speculation. shrugs

Sona - Again, as with Vayne, her actions become much more proscribed when she has less legal power. No matter how well known or loved, you are dependent on others. Unlike today, depending on exactly how strong the patriarchy is, they might be able to put some legal force behind their "suggestions" especially if maintaining House Buvelle is "for the good of the realm". I'm not saying it WOULD come to that, just that giving Demacia such a strong patriarchy makes it more likely that it COULD come down to that.

Shyvana - Yes, I imagine that if she's living in Demacia her rage is under enough control that she wouldn't have too much difficulty. However, it isolates her even more. She's put at one remove by the fear average citizens have of her, then once someone overcomes that fear to try and get close to her they have to overcome their innate sexism to view her as someone worth getting to know.

Quinn - Since when has misogyny had to make sense? She would have to overcome those prejudices with every new commanding officer she got (I assume she's pretty fixed in one command now that she's a champion), with every new person she works with, with every new acquaintance. It may seem like simple opinion that you can ignore, but when you have to deal with it again and AGAIN, on a constant basis, it becomes more difficult. I could see it as a motivation for why she likes to work alone.

NarasimhaOct 12, 20151 votes

Well, it IS part of a diplomat's culture to... well, be diplomatic. You don't have to follow foreign cultures, you just have to follow and respect them enough not to step on anyone's toes. If she's half the diplomat she claims to be, Poppy would understand that. And while I'm sure Poppy might receive the harsh phrase or glance here and there, I'd also assume that most Demacians don't care that much about the Yordle Ambassador to do such.

Vayne - In a patriarchy (as depicted here) men have the LEGAL POWER. Fiora's family if forcing her into the marriage. She WANTS to fight the duel, but she isn't legally allowed, it has to be her father. My point is that if enough people disapprove of her actions in a patriarchy they can find a way to legally stop her, unless she has a male supporter or more.

Yes, just like people tried to legally stop the Batman. And that's worked out well so far.

Sona - Again, as with Vayne, her actions become much more proscribed when she has less legal power. No matter how well known or loved, you are dependent on others. Unlike today, depending on exactly how strong the patriarchy is, they might be able to put some legal force behind their "suggestions" especially if maintaining House Buvelle is "for the good of the realm". I'm not saying it WOULD come to that, just that giving Demacia such a strong patriarchy makes it more likely that it COULD come down to that.

You can justify ANYTHING for the good of the realm. Sex hardly matters there. Also, we've been shown nothing outside of how the nobility of Demacia is treated. It's entirely possible that most commoners or middle-class citizens, as Sona is, would be treated much more differently.

Shyvana - Yes, I imagine that if she's living in Demacia her rage is under enough control that she wouldn't have too much difficulty. However, it isolates her even more. She's put at one remove by the fear average citizens have of her, then once someone overcomes that fear to try and get close to her they have to overcome their innate sexism to view her as someone worth getting to know.

I don't think the sexism is at all relevant here. It is, at best, a secondary fear. People aren't going to go "Oh, a woman. Oh, she's a (half) dragon!". No, they would do it the other way around "OH SHIT SHE'S A (HALF) DRAGON!...Oh yeah, and she's female too." They're not going to apply something like sexism to her because she's not even of the same species. It'd be like being 'sexist' towards a squirrel.

Quinn - Since when has misogyny had to make sense? She would have to overcome those prejudices with every new commanding officer she got (I assume she's pretty fixed in one command now that she's a champion), with every new person she works with, with every new acquaintance. It may seem like simple opinion that you can ignore, but when you have to deal with it again and AGAIN, on a constant basis, it becomes more difficult. I could see it as a motivation for why she likes to work alone.

Champions don't exist anymore. And I'd assume that while it would be initially difficult for her to climb the ranks, people would most certainly change their opinions after she caught the King's would be assassin. That's not a simple task, and she did it solo (for their intents and purposes). Male or female, that's worthy of respect.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20152 votes

We can go further and further afield into "What If" territory, but my main point is "Why should we have to?" A Demacia without all these patriarchal themes was just fine, and a home to many strong, diligent, brave women that we know and love. Introducing sexist themes diverts from other elements in their stories. Are we going to have to read through a "How I Overcame Society" on each and every female Demacian champion when their new lore comes out? I don't think it's a necessary or useful addition.

But that being said... let's discuss possibilities some more!

Poppy - As of now, her main qualification for becoming ambassador was a recommendation from a Demacian General for "grim determination" and a hatred for Noxians. Her quotes all seem very gruff and straightforward to me, not the cultured elaborations of the type of diplomat you are describing. Her back-story has her wanting to be a smith until the Noxians killed her father, where she took the offered position to have the opportunity to be on the side opposing Noxus. My impression may very well be inaccurate, but that is how I see it. I'm not saying they would "care...to do such" as you say. I'm not saying they would actively seek her out as a target. But if their society is as deeply sexist as indicated, Bandle City would get better return from a male diplomat. And if her main goal is opposing Noxians, not being a diplomat, there are other (less sexist?) countries that oppose Noxus, and I don't see why she wouldn't try to seek them out.

Vayne - It's true that legality didn't stop Batman, but he had a secret identity, which Vayne doesn't. Is she going to get one with the new lore? Admittedly it would be kind of cool, but... Unless her money is all cash and not held in banks, legality is very important to funding her crusade. If they confiscate her estates she has no bat-cave to come home to. Physically, she can stop people on an individual level (she's a champion-level fighter, even if champions don't exist any more). But if she is under constant, official attack, she might find it easier to move her base of operations to another country. The dark arts are everywhere after all.

Sona - This wiki page lists House Buvelle as one of Demacian nobility, but I'm unsure how accurate that is, since I couldn't find the source. If she is an extremely wealthy commoner, that could make a difference. However, I continue to assert that I find such stratified differences in ideals between classes in Demacia unlikely. Demacia is supposed to be almost frighteningly conformist, abiding by their own ideals and trying to stamp out those that oppose them. Their nobles are held up as the epitome of Demacian ideals, and I don't see the lower classes departing more than fiscally necessary from the mold offered by the nobles.

Shyvana - I must have phrased my previous statement poorly. The point I was trying to make was that at first they would be frightened of her draconic nature, but if they ever became used to her (lost that fear) they would start treating her like other women (poorly). Which seemed sad to me, where making connections with people and getting closer to them actually DECREASED their respect for her. Perhaps you are correct in assuming they would never even register her as a woman, but most players don't seem to have trouble making that connection, so I don't see why people living and working with her wouldn't. Her best hope is that by spending enough time for the fear to have worn off, it will also be enough time that they can value her for what she can do and who she is rather than WHAT she is (half-dragon OR woman)

Quinn - My mistake, champions DON'T exist, but I was simply trying to indicate that I thought she hadn't changed commanding officers recently. As to her great accomplishment, it wouldn't be the first time a woman's deeds were forgotten even in her time, or ascribed to luck, or the work of a man. "Good job catching that Assassin, Garen!" "Oh, well, actually it was Quinn, not me. You should be congratulating her!" "Ah yes. "Demacia's Wings"" wink-wink-nudge-nugde Garen looks uncomfortable "She may have been the one to "catch" the assassin, but I know your direction was invaluable!" "No, actually she used her own knowledge of the assassin in question." "Oh-ho! "Knows" him, does she? Women and their ways, eh?" "Um. No." (Alternately he just ends the conversation by punching the guy, which starts a rumor that he and Quinn are an item.) While Quinn's lore states "... many still had their doubts. How could a common-born girl, even with such a powerful creature at her side, forego years of military training?" Previous to Fiora's new lore "girl" seemed to refer to her age (especially in conjunction with "years of military training") than to the fact that she was a female. Now... I'm not looking forward to Quinn struggling with misogyny AND age discimination.

The Bearded BardOct 12, 201512 votes

Is this really surprising you? Did you know anything about Demacia before you read Fiora's new lore? Which, news flash, is the same as the old lore, but with a few more details and a new side story thing. Demacia has always self-righteous and morally eschewed justice obsessed city-state.

If you want a more female friendly environment, there's the Freljord, who seems perfectly fine treating everyone the same.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20155 votes

I agree the basic framework in the lore is the same, however I must respectfully disagree that it is completely the same.

In the previous lore Fiora's conflict with outsiders was based on her personality - "(she) earned her fame with her sharp blade and sharper tongue," "Fiora’s peers perceived her confidence as arrogance," "...Fiora’s own honor fell under question. Outraged and desperate to clear her name, she challenged her father to a duel." Now it's based on her being an unnatural female, someone defying gender stereotypes.

Previously "As the youngest child of House Laurent, a family known for its long line of elite duelists, Fiora considered herself destined for greatness. She longed to match the skill of her father, a legendary swordsman, and her talent quickly surpassed that of her siblings." Nothing there hints that anyone found her ambition inappropriate, there is no mention of dolls or dressmakers. It does not specifically mention whether her siblings are male or female, or BOTH.

I agree that Demacia's harsh justice system is interesting and worth exploring! I would love to see more about why their laws are considered draconian and harsh (even compared to Noxus!). My point is that DEMACIA HAS ENOUGH problematic areas without adding patriarchy to it. If a citystate with more female champions than male champions, with women in the military, with women who ACTIVELY CHOOSE to ally themselves with it (Kayle, Poppy, Shyvana) is a Patriarchy, then they need to start adding more female champions to the city-states that AREN'T.

The Red WardenOct 12, 201512 votes

Overeaction much? The new bio has patriarchy, does that matter so much that Demacia should get another retcon? What the bio did was give us more information about Demacia, without a drastic change in theme. It gives us more of a sense in how the upper classes work in the city-state, country, empire maybe? It tells us how the nobility are all about traditions and how they get upset with anything that breaks from this mold even slightly. This can open up quite a few interesting routes like the Lightshield's uncommon acceptance of outsiders (Xin, Shyvanna, Quinn).

It also gives us a reason for their hatred of Noxus; a place where anyone can become powerful, even those pitiful commoners. The nobility probably fear Noxus the most out of anyone in Demacia, due to the realization that if Noxus ever took over the first people's heads to roll would be those who gained their power through birthright (aka all Demacian nobility except for one specific individual). Fiora seems to be a Noxian clothed in Demacian titles, she had to earn her place, fighting her way there. This could be very interesting if it was brought up in a later political piece between Noxus and Demacian.

cshakesOct 12, 20154 votes

Honestly, they could just use the new bio, but state that "as the youngest child of a minor house..." and otherwise strip it of unnecessary references to gender. Then they'd have a non-patriarchal Demacia that believed in primogeniture, which would be kinda nice.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20152 votes

Yes, that change would have made a big difference. I agree completely.

cshakesOct 12, 20151 votes

And so simple to make, too! sighs

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20152 votes

My point was that I DO see it as a drastic change in theme. I agree that Demacia is very tradition-bound and that their society punishes those who stray from the norm harshly. That is one reason that I see the addition of patriarchy as incongruous. Jarvan and Garen are both presented as IDEAL DEMACIAN MEN, yet neither of them is sexist? Why aren't they being punished and forced back into the mold? Why are they trying to escape the mold in the first place? They are TRYING to fulfill Demacian ideals, they WANT Demacian ideals to prevail.

As to Noxus, if they are less sexist, why does Demacia have equal or more female champions? Cassiopeia Katarina Leblanc Riven Plus Morgana versus Fiora Lux Quinn Vayne Plus Kayle Poppy Shyvana Sona

I sorted them by natural born and adopted/joined. More women have chosen to join Demacia than Noxus. One of Noxus' natural-born women chose to leave Noxus, another of their natural-born women is not of this generation. If we had an ageless Demacian woman as well there would be even more women there.

Personally I agree that Noxus' ideals should lead to more female champions, but that has yet to materialize. (As a side note, until Darius' purge Noxus had just as many nobles enjoying the benefits of their birth rather than their hard work.)

Thank you for your comments!

The Red WardenOct 12, 20151 votes

with the Noxian roster yes there are more males to females but only by one. There are currently 11 definitively Noxian champions; 6 male, 5 female. Yes Riven left Noxus, but before she did she was a warrior equal in respect to Darius or and other commanding figure. Demacian on the other hand only has a female scout and spy, neither of which recieve a lot of praise from the public, typically only communicating with strategists or intelligence personal. Leblanc is ageless, yes, but also in command of a criminal/cult/ secret society so powerful that the politicians are completely under her thumb in political decisions. Besides, why should Leblanc when Poppy who only acts as an ambassador, does?

The difference between Demacian and Noxian nobility is that anyone in Noxus, with enough collected power, could come to form their own house; while Drmacian has pivoted on the same bloodlines for centuries. Noxian have to constantly fight to maintain this power, while Demacians get their power through birthrite, and nothing else. Noxians do not receive a free ride in life, Demacians do, unless you're a filthy peasent (Who seem to be screwed in life unless they can find a thought-extinct-bird)

Defin8lyNotScottOct 13, 20151 votes

I'm not saying Demacia has complete equality between men and women, I simply object to the QUANTITY of sexism introduced in Fiora's new lore. I'm also not trying to say that Demacia is a pure meritocracy - that would be a ridiculously untenable position to try and defend. Neither am I trying to say that Noxus is filled with sexism - that clearly contradicts their ideal of strength being the deciding factor in worth.

When I compare the two countries I am trying to raise the question: If Noxus has some form of equality but Demacia does NOT, why do they have an equal number of prominent female citizens? Shouldn't Demacia have fewer/Noxus have more?

You have a valid point that Riven had more of a command position than either Lux and Quinn, however I am not sure if I agree that they are not warriors held in respect by the entire country. Quinn's lore says "When they brought him to justice, they finally earned the admiration and respect of their nation." And Lux's says "She quickly became renowned for her daring achievements; the most dangerous of which found her deep in the chambers of the Noxian High Command. She extracted valuable inside information about the Noxus-Ionian conflict, earning her great favor with Demacians and Ionians alike." Which sounds like not only Demacians but Ionians know about her skills (kind of dumb to broadcast that kind of information about your SPIES, but maybe they released the information after she was no longer an active agent).

In a patriarchal culture, no matter how awesome her performance, Quinn's achievement would have been played off as luck, or the credit would have been given to one of the men in her chain of command (maybe even Garen). The same goes for Lux, more so because her operations were covert.

I think I may have misled you with my comment, because I DID still include LeBlanc with the native-born female Noxians. I only included Poppy in the resident/adopted list of Demacians though (similar to Morgana in Noxus) so I'm not sure about your comparison. My intent with mentioning LeBlanc's age was more along the lines of "She is already established in her power (and has been for ages), so her struggles aren't really comparable to those of modern Noxian women," but I guess that wasn't the way it came across.

I don't want to get into a discussion on Noxian nobility versus Demacian nobility here, because I'm trying to focus on the issue of sexism, but you're really tempting me to go down that rabbit hole! I think it would be a fascinating conversation. Thank you for your comments, you seem like someone who has thought deeply about Noxian society and culture, and I appreciate getting that perspective on the issue.

The Red WardenOct 13, 20151 votes

The high number of female champions from Demacia is interesting, that could be the result of many different factors. One thing that seems common with all of them are dead family members ( Fiora , Quinn , Shyvana , Sona , Vayne , Poppy ) or different family issues ( Kayle , Lux ). For whatever reason Riot doesn't like the families of female Demacians. Males as well ( Lucian , Galio ), XinZhao 's family was probably killed when Noxus enslaved him into the arena.

There are only TWO Demacian champions without major family issues Garen and JarvanIV .

My conclusion: If you are a Demacian and a family member dies, or if you have family issues, you will become a champion. Your only other chance is to be either the prince or his best bro.

Riot really hates Demacian families.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 13, 20151 votes

Death of a family member or family issues is a heroic trope going back into mythology, so I'm not too surprised it shows up in League of Legends. It's not something limited to Demacia either, many of the Ionian champions, the Du Couteau family, Varus, Kassadin, Malzahar, are a few others that pop to mind.

The Red WardenOct 13, 20151 votes

The old lore team must had had some love for the trope given that they focused the most on the 3 city-states now represented by the parent less champions. It makes since with how easy it is to give a character motif, using a vendetta against whoever killed their parents.

Not essentially due to laziness but a product of over-work that the lore team was held to due the schedule of a new champion every two weeks. The reason for Demacia's abundance could also be a result of this.

In most fantasy worlds important female characters are usually on the good side. Riot could find a lot more benevolent females that fit with the Demacian theme than they could sinister women who align with Noxian ideals. So when Riot was pressed for time and needed to find a place for this new female champion it was much easier to make them a Demacian than a Noxian.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 14, 20152 votes

I hope that is not the case. The idea that "Women are so awesome, they are NEVER evil, the inherent goodness of their nature prevents it!" is also sexist. It denies women a basic human trait (the capacity for evil), and I would hope they would have avoided that pitfall.

Is your argument here that Demacia has more female champions accidentally? That is certainly possible. However, they are still THERE, no matter how they got there. If you are given a country full of strong women, with no previous evidence of patriarchy, why ADD sexism? It seems unnecessary to me. As I have previously stated, Demacia has MANY dark aspects worth exploring: the harsh justice system we get a peek of in the new lore (harsher that Noxus), fascist overtones, placing duty before ALL else, the way they enforce conformity (I think they were trying for some of this in Fiora's lore, but for me it was overshadowed by the addition of sexism). Why add something that DOESN'T FIT when you have so much material to work with already?

One issue with adding patriarchy to Fiora's lore is that patriarchy is PERVASIVE. Adding it here has repercussions for ALL the Demacian champions, and their relations with other countries (especially other countries with women in power). If they had specified that this was a tradition/feature/culture of HOUSE LAURENT I would be less vocal on the subject, but it was portrayed as Demacia-wide. As you may guess from my arguments, I find the idea of sexism on the level portrayed in Fiora's new lore incredibly unlikely as a feature of Demacia as a whole.

The Red WardenOct 14, 20151 votes

Many champions in this game are based on characters or themes from past fiction. This ranges from direct transformation as seen with MonkeyKing to Riot wanting to add archetypes from different canons into League, Vayne was created to be Valoran's Batman. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but it explains why characters are what they are.

When Riot creates a character they usually take aspects from other works, however this has become less obvious over the years as the champion designers have gotten more creative. The reason I believe that most Demacian champions are female is that due to history being sexist, most stories before the 1850s only had females as side-characters. This was due to how society viewed women at the time, and how a writer's preferences were affected by this. Only within the last 100 years has this bias been lifted from the general public, due to women's rising importance in economics and politics.

Before this most writers, only had good-natured women, as it is easier to write about characters you find ideal. Villainous women didn't have a major showing in fiction until the last 75 years, giving Riot much fewer females that fit with Noxian ideals to base champion ideas off than female characters that fit Demacian ideals.

The sexism wasn't as pronounced in previous lore about Demacia, but then again Riot kept most of their stories in the "T rating" until a year ago. It probably won't play as large a part in other stories as it did for Fiora 's, but no one can tell the future. One possible explanation is that whoever has the most power will usually think of themselves and people like themselves as better than others. So the sexism might just be a cause of the power trying to down-play and degrade this women, who is a lot better than they could ever hope to be. Demacia seems to be based on 17th to 19th century Europe, a time period where many of the same biases were held.

Star GuardíanOct 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=cAnyuaJK,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-10-12T06:29:08.531+0000)

Overeaction much? The new bio has patriarchy, does that matter so much that Demacia should get another retcon? What the bio did was give us more information about Demacia, without a drastic change in theme. It gives us more of a sense in how the upper classes work in the city-state, country, empire maybe? It tells us how the nobility are all about traditions and how they get upset with anything that breaks from this mold even slightly. This can open up quite a few interesting routes like the Lightshield's uncommon acceptance of outsiders (Xin, Shyvanna, Quinn).

It also gives us a reason for their hatred of Noxus; a place where anyone can become powerful, even those pitiful commoners. The nobility probably fear Noxus the most out of anyone in Demacia, due to the realization that if Noxus ever took over the first people's heads to roll would be those who gained their power through birthright (aka all Demacian nobility except for one specific individual). Fiora seems to be a Noxian clothed in Demacian titles, she had to earn her place, fighting her way there. This could be very interesting if it was brought up in a later political piece between Noxus and Demacian.

Thank you! A perfect rational explanation.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 14, 20151 votes

Thank you for joining the conversation! I'd love to get your perspective on the issue. While I AM opinionated, and I WILL argue with you, I do try not to be rude about it, so feel free to join in!

Star GuardíanOct 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thank you for joining the conversation! I'd love to get your perspective on the issue. While I AM opinionated, and I WILL argue with you, I do try not to be rude about it, so feel free to join in!

Lol, i wasn't being sarcastic when I said what I said. I genuinely agree with what you said.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 14, 20151 votes

Sometimes it's hard to tell purely through text, isn't it? I'm not being sarcastic either, if you think some points were left out or incomplete, I'd love to hear your two cents!

Starfish HOct 12, 20159 votes

Are you kidding? Kayle would fit right in!

Garen How do you like our city?

Kayle Meh, it's alright.

Garen Aw that's a shame. Wait hold up. I got a message saying I need to keep justice in the barracks. The men are flirting with Quinn again. When will they learn? The last man who did that was attacked by her bird. Who scratched him repeadtly. In the eyes, gouging them out. We had to send him to Shen and get him a little appointment with LeeSin .

Kayle Wait did you say justice?

Garen Uhh yeah?

Kayle Exactly how much "justice" do you guys have?

Garen Well we have like 30 laws on jaywalking, 20 laws on chewing gum, 47 laws about breathing, and 1738 laws about Noxus. I also have a justice system of my own. In which if anyone kills anyone the most I kill them.

Kayle So much justice!! JUSTIIICEEE!

Garen Oh are we screaming Justice? Well then, JUSTICCEE!

JarvanIV JUSTICCEE!!!

Poppy PEACCCCEE!!!

Riven REDEMPTION!!!

Draven DRAAAAAAAAAAAVEEEEENNN

Garen Kayle JarvanIV Poppy Riven ...........

Draven I guess I'll go Draven over here, in this corner, all the way in Noxus.

MerxamersOct 12, 20152 votes

nice :)

SolideusOct 12, 20156 votes

I think "the patriarchy" was emphasized in her bio because it's especially important to her own story. It may be more overt in the noble houses than in other contexts; Lux being a military mage might not be looked down upon in the same way because she's from a military family.

They are similar in the sense that they are expected to serve their families' needs rather than their own ambitions, though. That seems to be the larger truth in Demacia; it's kind of fascist.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20154 votes

I totally agree that arranged marriages seem very Demacian. Setting aside your personal desires in the name of duty is very much something they would be in favor of, but arranged marriages can be objectionable to the male too. Yet in Fiora's new lore they talk so much about how she's a woman and a daughter and so on, making it seem like the male party has more say in the arranged marriage than the female.

And that's without going in to the new disgust toward female heads of houses introduced there. If you look at House Buvelle, House Vayne, House Laurent, House Lightshield, (and then assume House Crownguard has a male head of house since it's not stated) that makes three female heads of house to two. If you eliminate House Crownguard because it's ambiguous, that makes three female heads of house to ONE. Granted there could be many, MANY houses with male heads that we are unaware of, but given the current available text, female heads of house don't seem THAT unusual.

If this particular focus on gender roles had been portrayed as something specific to HOUSE LAURENT I would have been more convinced and objected much less. Like you say, Lux is from a military family, Fiora is from a family of duelists. Naturally they would have different culture and traditions within their households. I could see the Laurents being one of several sexist houses within Demacia. But that is not the way it seems to me. The portrayal indicates it's a Demacia-wide attitude in my eyes, and I see it as conflicting with previous lore. If you read it some other way I'd love to hear your opinion!

ULTRAF0RCEOct 12, 20151 votes

Well, lets just take a random guess and say that the house crownguard person who was supposed to be married to Fiora was Garen, every lore that has been written makes it seem pretty likely that his response to his father saying so is this "As you wish Father, as long as I may serve the family and Demacia I will obey your requests" its highly unlikely that Garen cares about who he is asked to marry, and yeah its quite possible Laurent is one of the more sexist houses but forget not, she is also the youngest of her family yet still the most powerful so there would be that as well.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20152 votes

I agree with the comment about Garen's likely response, but that doesn't mean in other arranged marriages there is a similar willingness. I assume most arranged marriages go through in Demacia, without care for the desires of EITHER participant. Fiora's lore states "...marriage was arranged with an outlying branch of House Crownguard" (emphasis mine) so I think the likelihood of it actually being Garen is very low (especially since there is no reason for them not to use his name if it was him).

frigginmurlocsOct 12, 20151 votes

Especially when you consider that aren is probably next in line for head of house, which means he would have to bein the main branch

SolideusOct 12, 20151 votes

I imagine it could be more patriarchal at the top than further down; the houses might be pretty bad, but the military might not be quite as bad, commoners might be even less. The expectations of Fiora might come from being born a daughter in a noble family, rather than just because she's a woman. House-daughters might be expected to be married off, but in Demacia everyone might be expected to do their part "for the greater good", in various ways. Sons might be expected to join the military, daughters in lower classes might have the same or other expectations on them. Rather than just having a patriarchy, it might just be a fascist culture across the board.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20152 votes

In another society, I would agree with you. But in Demacia, the noble houses are supposed to EXEMPLIFY Demacian ideals. They are supposed to live above and beyond the standard expected of the commoners. If there is such a divide between nobles and commoners why is Demacia portrayed as working as a cohesive unit toward their goals? I have always seen Demacia as the sort to ENFORCE conformity to societal standards, not fracture within itself.

I fully support the idea of Demacian nobles going through arranged marriages on a regular basis. I agree that Demacian nobles would be expected to "do their part "for the greater good"" as you said. But Fiora's marriage is portrayed as a purely female problem. Did her fiancee want to be there, or was it all his parents? What about the males? Do they have a say while the females do not? Her lore states "As the youngest daughter of House Laurent, she was destined for a life as a political pawn, to be married off in the grand game of alliances between patrician houses." But why was it her "destiny"? Couldn't she as easily bring her family glory and honor on the battlefield if she joined the army? And THEN gone on to a political marriage once she has increased her "value" through military service (if Demacia places such emphasis on the military).

I would rather see Demacia go in a more fascist direction (because it's hinted at in previous lore, not because I support fascism), than add on sexism and patriarchy that weren't there previously. Being an equal woman in a fascist state is very different than being an oppressed woman in a semi-fascist state.

The SoulforgedOct 12, 20151 votes

I believe House Crownguard's head is currently Marcus Crownguard.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20151 votes

Wait... there's a Marcus Du Couteau and a Marcus Crownguard? That seems like it would be confusing...

Thank you for the information! Could you tell me where you found it so that I can read it too?

The SoulforgedOct 12, 20153 votes

If they're going to give Demacia shades of grey, at least don't make them 100% conflict with what we already know a fair bit about Demacia. We know that many women were in high ranking positions, and that they at least had some close to equal terms with men from Demacia. We also know that the guy who let poppy stay seemed to be a genuinely good guy, but I could understand dislike from other areas. If we see her becoming a charity case, I'd dislike it, but I also don't want her stay in Demacia to be all happy happy.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20153 votes

I would love to have some of Demacia's previously-existing shades of grey explored! The fact that they added something conflicting with the evidence from before is INDEED what irks me about this lore-update.

Poppy is so gruff and straightforward, I can't see her putting up with sexism when she's not born into the culture. She may hate Noxians, but there are other places to go to combat them. I don't want to see a Demacia where Poppy has to leave.

GreenLoreOct 12, 20152 votes

It was said that fioras position in her house was due to being the youngest daughter of the house,implying that her being the lastborn also had an effect on her position.

Also i think you are exaggerating here quite a bit. Yes it is mentioned that a woman being the leader of a nobles house is decried,but you seem to be under the impression that it is common to see demacian women as inferior in every position.

Women are most likely still respected in the army and just because sexism exists in demacia,doesn't mean it is socially accepted(after all fiora is still allowed to be the head of her house)

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20152 votes

I think you have a good point about birth order influencing treatment of children, but Fiora was also the youngest child in her previous lore.

You may be right, I may be reading more into the text than the writers intended. I hope I am. Fiora's lore deals almost exclusively with nobles, so it's hard to tell. Your interpretation is quite possible in a world where Demacian is culturally stratified, with behavior dictated by the level you are dealing with. Demacia has been implied to strive for unity of purpose however, and considering Demacian nobles are supposed to embody Demacian ideals and the military is TOO, I don't see why there would be a LARGE gap between the nobility and the military.

The sexism seems fairly deep in Fiora's lore:

It says "Fiora defied every expectation" not "every expectation of her family." This seems to imply that strict gender roles are part of the society at large.
It says "As the youngest daughter of House Laurent, she was destined for a life as a political pawn," not "As the youngest child," as I would expect if it were merely about age and not about being a daughter.
It says "Her husband-to-be was publicly shamed and his family demanded a duel to the death to wipe away Fiora's scandalous insult. Fiora immediately stepped forward, but as Master of House Laurent, it was her father's duty to accept." Which, depending on how you interpret it can mean "because she was a woman" or "because it was a challenge made by the head of THEIR household it had to be met by the head of the Laurent household". I admit it could simply be pessimism that makes me see the former as more likely.
It says "Fiora became the head of House Laurent (much to the surprise of her older brothers...)." Since it states she is "the youngest daughter" why aren't her older sisters surprised? Why does it only mention the brothers (and brothers, plural, instead of only the inheriting brother) if there isn't some male vs. female subtext?
It says "Some still speak of her House's disgrace or decry how standards have fallen that a woman should dare call herself ruler of a noble House, but only in private." Now, I'm unclear on if nobles can challenge commoners to duels, so, again, this might be nobles only.

So even if there is a gap between noble standards and military standards, unless it's a large gap (which (as I've said) I find unlikely) it still implies a level of sexism above previous indications.

Thanks for your comments! I appreciate your input, and it's good to see other theories and explanations.

GreenLoreOct 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It says "Fiora defied every expectation" not "every expectation of her family." This seems to imply that strict gender roles are part of the society at large.

Again this is not necessarily restricted to her gender,but her birth order(or a combination of both)

It says "As the youngest daughter of House Laurent, she was destined for a life as a political pawn," not "As the youngest child," as I would expect if it were merely about age and not about being a daughter.

It still mentions that she is the lastborn.Indicating that older daughters have a different purpose.

It says "Her husband-to-be was publicly shamed and his family demanded a duel to the death to wipe away Fiora's scandalous insult. Fiora immediately stepped forward, but as Master of House Laurent, it was her father's duty to accept." Which, depending on how you interpret it can mean "because she was a woman" or "because it was a challenge made by the head of THEIR household it had to be met by the head of the Laurent household". I admit it could simply be pessimism that makes me see the former as more likely.

No it specifically says that this is due to fioras father being the head of the family. It doesn't say anything about Fioras gender.

It says "Fiora became the head of House Laurent (much to the surprise of her older brothers...)." Since it states she is "the youngest daughter" why aren't her older sisters surprised? Why does it only mention the brothers (and brothers, plural, instead of only the inheriting brother) if there isn't some male vs. female subtext?

Like I said,a woman taking control of a noble house is most likely unusual and normally one of her brothers would have become the head of the house. I am not saying that sexism doesn't exist,just that it doesn't exist everywhere.

It says "Some still speak of her House's disgrace or decry how standards have fallen that a woman should dare call herself ruler of a noble House, but only in private." Now, I'm unclear on if nobles can challenge commoners to duels, so, again, this might be nobles only.

I don't see a reason why a noble should not be allowed to duel with a commoner(it'd be a bit much if fiora killed 30 nobles already) The fact that his is usually only talked about in private could also hint at sexism like this not being socially accepted in demacia(though it is also possible that they don't want to be challenged by fiora)

Defin8lyNotScottOct 13, 20152 votes

It says "Fiora defied every expectation" not "every expectation of her family." This seems to imply that strict gender roles are part of the society at large.

Again this is not necessarily restricted to her gender,but her birth order(or a combination of both)

I would like to point out that the examples of "expectations" given immediately thereafter are about playing with dolls (she gives them away) and fancy dresses (she uses the mannequins for target practice). To me that implies it is about BEING FEMALE. Maybe younger sons play with dolls too. Maybe if younger sons are not interested in fancy suits (it wouldn't be dresses for them) they are "defying expectations". Those are possible interpretations, but I think my initial reaction is the correct one.

It says "As the youngest daughter of House Laurent, she was destined for a life as a political pawn," not "As the youngest child," as I would expect if it were merely about age and not about being a daughter.

It still mentions that she is the lastborn.Indicating that older daughters have a different purpose.

But it still indicates that the lastborn SON will not meet a similar fate. Fiora has multiple brothers (at least 2, possibly more), as "youngest daughter" we know that she has at least ONE older sister, possibly more. We don't know the fates of any of these children. We only know that the youngest daughter is "destined" to be a "political pawn". If the youngest son were ALSO destined to be a "political pawn" "youngest CHILD" would still be a more appropriate phrasing. If we reach out into the realm of speculation we can say, "Oh, but she only has two brothers, the heir and the spare, THEY won't be political pawns. And/or she has six sisters, of course she's destined for marriage!" But the point is WE DON'T HAVE that information. We cannot judge on speculation, and what is THERE indicates it has to do with her being female.

Let us also look at the word "destined". In a realm as military-focused as Demacia, why is joining the army not an option? Why is marriage her "destiny"? Why wouldn't serving Demacia as a soldier or a commander be just as honorable, and bring them as much influence? Obviously if she were an incapable fighter, marriage would be preferable, but by a young age she had already shown a readiness and willingness to do battle.

It says "Her husband-to-be was publicly shamed and his family demanded a duel to the death to wipe away Fiora's scandalous insult. Fiora immediately stepped forward, but as Master of House Laurent, it was her father's duty to accept." Which, depending on how you interpret it can mean "because she was a woman" or "because it was a challenge made by the head of THEIR household it had to be met by the head of the Laurent household". I admit it could simply be pessimism that makes me see the former as more likely.

No it specifically says that this is due to fioras father being the head of the family. It doesn't say anything about Fioras gender.

While you have a point that it does seem to specifically call him "Master of House Laurent" the lore goes on to say "The champion of House Crownguard was a truly deadly warrior, and defeat was almost certain." House Crownguard does not send their Master, instead they send a "champion". To me that still indicates gender could play a role. Basically I still believe this point is arguable, but I am willing to concede it based on lack of information.

It says "Fiora became the head of House Laurent (much to the surprise of her older brothers...)." Since it states she is "the youngest daughter" why aren't her older sisters surprised? Why does it only mention the brothers (and brothers, plural, instead of only the inheriting brother) if there isn't some male vs. female subtext?

Like I said,a woman taking control of a noble house is most likely unusual and normally one of her brothers would have become the head of the house. I am not saying that sexism doesn't exist,just that it doesn't exist everywhere.

My point about her sister(s) still stands. Why do you not mention someone's reaction? Because it DOESN'T MATTER. And yet, the reaction of ALL her brothers is mentioned, not just the (former) heir. The notice of reaction is not divided on non-inheriting versus inheriting, but on male versus female. As I said, to me this implies ingrained sexism.

I have no objection to primogeniture being the norm, and male heirs being the standard. I do object to the SHOCKED and HORRIFIED reactions to female inheritance when it wasn't there before, and when there are OTHER EXAMPLES of female heads of households. (I previously mentioned Lestara Buvelle, Sona Buvelle, and Vayne.)

I am not saying sexism is nonexistent in Demacia either. I simply object to the SUDDEN ONSET of EXTREME sexism I see pictured in Fiora's new lore. Her previous lore showed NO signs of sexism when she took over the house, or even when she studied to become a top-notch duelist. (I'm going to stop here before I end up reprising my entire argument from before. XD )

It says "Some still speak of her House's disgrace or decry how standards have fallen that a woman should dare call herself ruler of a noble House, but only in private." Now, I'm unclear on if nobles can challenge commoners to duels, so, again, this might be nobles only.

I don't see a reason why a noble should not be allowed to duel with a commoner(it'd be a bit much if fiora killed 30 nobles already) The fact that his is usually only talked about in private could also hint at sexism like this not being socially accepted in demacia(though it is also possible that they don't want to be challenged by fiora)

I don't object to commoners fighting duels either, but the only example we have is of a noble/noble duel (her duel with Umberto mentions "both Houses" being present). Maybe nobility is simply more common in Demacia than we thought! Knighthoods are easy to pass out after all. The question only comes into play when we're asking "Are these only nobles "decrying" lost standards, or commoners as well?"

Since the sentence I mentioned is immediately followed by "For when such gossip reaches Fiora's ear, she is quick to call out those rumormongers and demand justice on the edge of a sword," I think it is indeed fueled by fear more than societal pressure. If they portrayed it as a disgust with the METHOD Fiora used to gain her place, I would be less argumentative about it, but their objections are CLEARLY PORTRAYED as stemming from her being a WOMAN.

Thank you for your intelligent defense of your position. Obviously I disagree, but please do not take my arguments on a personal level.

GreenLoreOct 13, 20151 votes

Overall I doubt we'll come to a conclusion here. What I want to say though is that we just shouldn't jump to conclusions. We know that gender roles appearantly exist,but we only got a glimpse of them,we don't know what kind of roles the male nobles have to fulfill,how the birth order influences these things,if all noble houses have the same traditions,how special cases like vayne and sona are seen,etc. and we have literally no information about how women are seen in the military/among common citizens.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 14, 20151 votes

While I agree that we are indeed treading in speculative waters, I think that a frank public discussion is a good way to air questions and concerns. By discussing the possible implications as supported by the (small amount of) text we have been given, we show which avenues we would like explored and explained in further offerings. By presenting our different readings of the text, we show where the ambiguity lies. It's hard to clear up questions you don't know are there.

I too look forward to learning about the aspects that were not covered. Thank you for your comments! While we may not agree on every aspect, I hope we have a healthy respect for one another's arguments.

UomoAfideOct 12, 20151 votes

Are we really sure that this sexism is openly present in the Demacian society or is it just the fact that Fiora comes from a house who saw it's honor unredeemeably ruined? Considering how much honor dictates the prestige and success of a house, is it really surprising that Fiora is always the subject of malevolence of other houses? At least, that is just my hopinion on the matter.

Defin8lyNotScottOct 12, 20153 votes

Well, here are the passages that make me think it's Demacia-wide and not confined to House Laurent or due to the taint of dishonor. You may read them differently, but that is the conclusion they indicate to me.

"As the youngest daughter of House Laurent, she was destined for a life as a political pawn, to be married off in the grand game of alliances between patrician houses." - The first part could mean "In House Laurent she would be a political pawn" but it's ambiguous. The second part seems to imply it goes on in ALL the houses. While I have no objection to arranged marriages being the norm for Demacian nobles, I would like to think that the women in all these marriages were not inevitably considered PAWNS, while their male counterparts are not.

"Some still speak of her House's disgrace or decry how standards have fallen that a woman should dare call herself ruler of a noble House," - This part COULD conceivably be "Some in House Laurent Lands" but I think that's a stretch. To me it implies that some people, in some (as opposed to ONE) places, in different stations object to women heading a noble House.

"Many suspect Fiora herself puts every suitor through an impossible gauntlet of courtship in order to remain aloof and unmarried, for a wife would, traditionally, relinquish power to her husband. And Fiora has never done anything traditionally." - When you're talking about "traditionally" it doesn't seem they're speaking of a specific tradition only held by House Laurent, but a nationwide one.

Then there's the fact that despite her killing THIRTY men, people still underestimate her "Fiora saw he still thought he could win. Like everyone else, he underestimated her." To me that speaks of some pretty ingrained sexism, something you wouldn't find if it was confined to one (or even a few) Houses.

I'd love to hear your interpretation!

Pew Pew LasersOct 12, 20151 votes

If you thought Demacians where nice guys you should probably take a few seconds to read up on Diana who used to be a Demacian.

When she attained the powers of the moon god. She returned and wanting to promote the worship of both sun and moon god to double Demacian power. Demacia tried to kill her as a heretic.

Shaded StrikerOct 12, 20158 votes

{quoted}

If you thought Demacians where nice guys you should probably take a few seconds to read up on who used to be a Demacian.

When she attained the powers of the moon god. She returned and wanting to promote the worship of both sun and moon god to double Demacian power. Demacia tried to kill her as a heretic.

When has Diana ever been associated with Demacia?