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Hard or soft magic systems?

DerMangoJoghurt·1/6/2019, 1:04:31 AM·18 votes·12,494 views

Thermal Kitten recently "confirmed" that a magic lore update is coming in 2019.

we’ve been thinking a lot about them, and how magic works in Runeterra, as we prepare for 2019 (hint, hint).

Honestly, I think this is desperately needed, because the current magic system leaves a lot of room for improvement and clarification. Admittedly, I'm a fan of hard magic systems, so I'm a little biased.

What I like about hard magic systems is their predictability. Avatar is a popular example for this. Air-benders can move air, water-benders can move water, earth-benders can move earth and fire-benders can create and move fire. You know exactly what a character can and can't do. And when exceptions do occur it's a big deal, but not in a deus ex machina way. Water-benders being able to manipulate blood is something you could have expected, while still being an incredibly impactful reveal.

A soft magic system makes upsets like that a lot less... upsetting. In a soft magic system the specific abilities or powers of a character are vague and don't have clear limits. This gives you a lot of freedom as a writer, but can make reading stories about that character feel like a series of unforeseeable events. For example, in 'For Demacia' Lux is able to enhance her horse's vision and later cleanse a boy of a demon. While vision enhancement is at least related to light, Lux' demon cleansing abilities are nothing that could have been predicted prior to the story. Similarly, Taliyah's ability to see past events by touching stones that were in proximity of the event (as seen in 'Echoes in the Stone ') is vaguely to stone-related, yet feels completely random to the reader.

That being said, I think Riot's narrative team has a pretty good idea how Runeterra's magic system works, but only leaves a handful of clues for us to find. If (and that's a big 'if') I've analyzed those correctly, mages like Lux and Taliyah draw power from the spirit realm, which is influenced by the culture of the area. So if Demacia usually associates light with cleansing powers or foresight, it would give Lux those powers. Or if Shurima associates stone with the past, Shuriman thaumaturges may be able to see the past using stones. But even if that's true (and I'm not just trying to make the magic system harder than it is), that only gives us an explanation for magic powers, but without the predictability and increased impact of new abilities.

Obviously, Runeterra's magic system can't just be completely changed, but I hope that this update will introduce more elements of "hardness" to it. As this is quite subjective, tell me what you think. What do you want from the update? Do you think the current magic system is fine? Do you want it harder or softer?

29 Comments

EdgeLady1/6/2019, 3:02:07 AM9 votes

While I tend to prefer hardness and rules to magic systems (and at least sensibility), I think that most of Runeterra's magic should remain soft. It's far too broad and yields too many disconnected things for the magic system to be a truly defined, hard one. And I think it would be a bad idea if Riot tried to mush too many things together with too many rules (like, recently, why call the demigods "spirits"? Why are so many magical creatures called that? They clearly all function differently; they should be at least mostly defined by their different natures), because it would take away from some of the identity of the unique champions.

However, there are possibilities for multiple magic systems in one setting, and I think that's exactly what Runeterra needs. Most of them should be soft, but some of them can be hard, particularly a lot of the magic surrounding the three most advanced regions: Bilgewater, Piltover, and Zaun (in Bilgewater's case, this discounts all of the Serpent Isles stuff, Black Mist, Swimming City and etc.). These three regions have a higher focus on technology and objects and most of the magic there seems to center around that. They also lean toward steampunk, which is a subgenre that can just beg for a hard magic system.

In short, all of the "low" magic of the more advanced regions could lean toward hard, but the "high" magic of other regions should likely remain soft. For example, how could a hard-structured system define all the wild magic of Ionia? The terrifying, unknowable, and unnatural effects of the Shadow Isles and the Void? The legends of the old gods in the Freljord? There should be general rules around these regions' magic, of course, but explaining it and putting it in a structured system wouldn't be the right way to go, from a writing and worldbuilding perspective.

Pale Mask1/6/2019, 2:18:30 PM6 votes

I want a hard magic system, and an explanation about how magic works. Maybe treat it more like a science, rather than writing it off as something spiritual?

Demons are spirits, demigods are spirits, vastayashai'rei are spirits, dragons are spirits, there are "spirit gods", Syndra corrupts spirits, Ryze is a spiritual man, Veigar is a spirit creature, etc.

Is there a character in these stories who succeeds in controlling magic (cough Xerath)? Ryze tells Kegan how that doesn't work. But why? Why would you have to "respect" magic in order to use it? The Blessed Isles were also religious.

No one in Runeterra is interested in magic academically, or willing to create basic rules for it? Black Rose? Wizardry Addicts Anonymous?

Warlord Dienekes1/6/2019, 2:26:32 PM6 votes

I like both hard and soft magic systems based on how they are used.

If your goal is to make magic mysterious, dark, inscrutable, a power used by vile sorcerers to be faced by your rugged hero. Then soft systems are great for getting that feeling of just how in over their head the hero is.

If your goal is to show how interesting your protagonist can use their magic, then it better be hard as iron.

Currently, I believe Riot’s problem is that they try to do both in the same setting and using magic as more a blunt instrument to add details to the setting rather than truly exploring how this would effect things. At least at first, they’re trying to do better in this regard, especially with the Ionia update. But they’re still somewhat saddled with what was written before.

The resulting mix ends up with things like TF with a very hard magic system that works well. Followed by the soft system of the Shadow Isles that also fits with the tone of the story of those islands. Followed by the soft system of Shurima which I mostly just see as a grab bag of magic effects that characters just do with no build up or rules to let the reader get a frame of mind of what the characters are capable of. As a result I tend to get bored with Shurima unless they’re discussing the effects of the slavery system. Or Targon, which I just hate.

What is interesting is the attempt to add rules to the soft system without any real explanation. We know Sivir’s blade is an Ascended killing weapon. Why? Because the former Aspect of Twilight did something to make it so. How did she do this? I dunno. Moon power was involved, I guess.

Why I find this interesting from a narrative perspective is that it leads to a situation in the future for a hard magic principle: Sivir’s weapon kills Ascended. To be put up against characters like Xerath, whose limitations are nebulous to say the least.

But as a reader, since Xerath’s power is still so varied and without rules, I can’t help but think of all the ways he has around this situation. Can’t hit Sivir with a spell? Hit the building she’s in and crush her to death. Doesn’t seem all that hard.

So I guess this is all an overlong explanation to say that Riot has their work cut out for them to try and make sense of the magic in their setting.

Spideraxe1/6/2019, 3:23:18 AM4 votes

I think it may really depend on the mage if they have hard or soft magic limits, I think some mages like the mentioned Taliyah is definitely hard limited on being an earth mage and even a mage like Lissandra is hard limited on being an ice mage but I think the more arcane-y style mages like Ryze and Xerath can possibly branch off on to other types of magics.

Velzard of Koz1/6/2019, 2:42:25 PM3 votes

What I like about hard magic systems is their predictability. Avatar is a popular example for this. Air-benders can move air, water-benders can move water, earth-benders can move earth and fire-benders can create and move fire. You know exactly what a character can and can't do. And when exceptions do occur it's a big deal, but not in a deus ex machina way. Water-benders being able to manipulate blood is something you could have expected, while still being an incredibly impactful reveal.

Funny you mentoin Avatar when the whole thing you describe is just random "This is hard for me, this is not". I love Avatar, but when you think about it deeply, there are just Benders. It's because in real world, we don't have four elements, they are not thematic and Avatar connects with the real basis too much. Examples:

  • There are Sandbenders. In the original show, in the second series, Appa is abducted by Sandbenders. Literally people who were moving their vessels by creating sand tornadoes. They weren't Airbenders (otherwise their existence would be bigger deal), they were Earthbenders, but they were capable of making air and controlling it.

  • There were Vinebenders. The swamp people. They were waterbenders controlling water in the vines. If they could control water in vines waterbenders should be able to control water in... 80% of the nature.

  • Katara turned water into mist. This implies she can control boiling of water. That's energy. Katara is thus firebender.

  • Firebenders can control lightning so they are energybenders rather than firebenders. The thing is, everyone is energybender. Waterbenders can make water freeze and boil, Korra introduced Lavabender who created energy in earth by rapid movement, you can press air for higher tempreature etc.

  • If Bloodbenders can control humans so can Earthbenders through minerals in your bones (since that's the reason Metalbenders exist), so can Firebenders since they control energy, so can Airbenders because your cells need oxygen. If we're going with Blood is water, then we must also go with Bones and Teeth are minerals, cells need air and energy thus human body is full of air and energy.

So the thing here is that any bender can do practically anything. The only reason they don't do it is because "Nobody happened to try it yet" and it would ruin the theme of the show. But once again. Thunderbenders, Bloodbenders and Metalbenders, although cool ideas, heavily ruined the "heavy magic" because it implies so much liberality that you cannot expect their limitation because there si thus no argument against: Sandbenders, Mudbenders, Lavabenders, Vinebenders, Steambenders (who are funny because they are Water, Air and Fire at once), Boltbenders...

EDIT: Just to put together my point: It doesn't matter much, because no system is perfect, it ca only be interpreted as perfect by people who lie to themself. If you want Magic to sound realistic, it needs to be compatible with science and no writer ever whould be so genial to harness knowledge of literally entirety of science to simulate that. Writers can try to make it as realistic as possible, but there will always be those pesky buts. Wither has magic literally presented as magic science, Naruto made a lot of rules and also now and then explained ninja-stuff as control of energies. Yet neither of them is perfect. There are just random godly powers in Naruto for effect, there are questionable abilities in Witcher.

In Witcher very beginning, a witch heals deep cut wound but she couldn't heal someone who was cut by giant claw. The explanation: the former was human, the latter was not. The witch didn't know the organism of the latter well enough to save them. This explanation is either representation of hard magic system or convinient excuse that ruins logic later on based on how you look at it... and how much you care. If you care really deeply, no magic system ever will be hard for you.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1/6/2019, 7:00:12 AM3 votes

Harder. That said, a magic type (like arcane for example) should always be able to get new spells/abilities in future stories

Fondling Gems1/7/2019, 6:32:17 AM1 votes

So on one hand I absolutely adore hard magic systems. Sympathy in Name of the Wind, basically everything by Brandon Sanderson (When you think he has gone soft with Steelheart then he pulls a lolnope on you and turns it into a hard magic system), etc. etc. They are amazing to explore for me.

That being said I do have a (if you will excuse the pun) soft spot for the other side of magic systems. Specifically all the Druid magic in the Shannara Series was so beautifully done to me. I actually feel like it really fits League's theme when it is well done, which admittedly it isn't always.

Stuff like the Dreaming Pool was a gorgeous example of Runeterra magic in my eyes. These natural wells of power that permeate and warp the world itself. Mount Targon which physically changes, the Waters of Life in the Shadow Isles. In a lot of ways these big natural magics that defy laws and constraints are really what magic is in my eyes. To me Hard Magic systems aren't even really magic systems. They are worlds where the laws of physics are different. Soft magic on the other hand really is magic, it may need to be appeased or channeled in certain ways, but it breaks and defies the fundamental structures of the universe, and as such truly is magical.

Runeterra very much is a place of magic, of cities of beings that seemingly move at random, of stone colossus that sit silent for centuries only to rise up when they feel the breath of power, of beings who have both the spirits and forms of different creatures.

While I love Hard magic systems to death, I do honestly think that Runeterra is a setting of soft magic, and changing that would make it lose it's magic.

Falrein1/6/2019, 10:03:34 AM1 votes

Well... I don't know? I like hard magic systems, because I like when everything is set and we know what to expect. Buuuut... How do you explain Syndra's magic for example? We know (well we don't know but can safely assume) her magic isn't Shadow Magic, as this is something Zed uses, and it had been locked away, so it'd be weird for her to have access to it naturally. But even then, she has more than just her dark spheres anyway: telekinesis, empathy (this one is debatable, but she definitely has the ability to force people to feel her emotions), magical fallout on surrounding spirit magic, and who knows, perhaps more. I wonder how you'd put that in a hard magic system (unless she's one of those exceptions you mentionned). I trust Riot will do a great job explaining how magic works on Runeterra, so let's wait and see :x

The Iceborn1/6/2019, 11:19:32 AM1 votes

I wish we could get an order to magic systems! I generally prefer hard systems but with runeterra and the connection to spirit realmst soft is the way to go... What is important tho,for me, is an order something that shows the reader how powerful the magic is on a scale.. PURE EXAMPLE: 1.Necromancy (e.g. Karthus) 2.Elemental magic (e.g. Ashe) 3.Light magic (e.g. Lux) 4.Blood magic (e.g Vlad) 5.Celestial magic (e.g Soraka)

I wish we would have order, a scale that gives us a loose hierarchy of magical power so when we read a comic and we hear light magic we can figure out how powerful that individual truy is or at least how great his potential is.. [sg-soraka]

DonatellaVersace1/6/2019, 7:51:28 PM1 votes

I really would like to know what Leblanc 's magic is to be exact and the extent of it. She's prolonged her life for at least a thousand years, has appeared in multiple places at once + as different people...etc...

LordGeovanni1/7/2019, 4:57:50 AM1 votes

shoot now i got to dig up that old youtube video with hard and soft magic systems so that i can remember what we talking about.

Psyrix1/6/2019, 2:05:29 AM1 votes

Have you read Pact by John McCrae aka Wildbow?