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You know what The Great Summoner Retcon reminds me of?

DawnPaladin··55 votes·6,591 views

There's a common pitfall that newbie Dungeon Masters fall into in games like Dungeons and Dragons.

It starts with the best of intentions. The DM is excited about the game. He has an epic story he wants to tell. He spends months creating his gameworld and preparing plot threads for the players to follow. Cities and countries and people-groups are invented out of whole cloth. A cast of NPCs emerges, each with their own backstory and motivations. The DM prepares the plot meticulously, forgetting nothing, segueing one twist seamlessly into the next, making sure every detail comes together into one glorious narrative tapestry. When his preparations are finished, the campaign is a work of art, a brilliant story for the characters to experience.

The first night of the campaign, the DM sets out drinks and snacks for everyone. The players arrive one by one. Everyone sits down at the table, and the story begins. On the road into town, the party meets the mysterious young man who is secretly heir to the throne. Little do the players know they'll be helping him reclaim his kingdom in just a few levels!

And then one of the player characters decides this NPC isn't giving him the respect he deserves, picks a fight with him, and kills him right there on the side of the road.

All is lost. All the DM's careful planning collapses into ruin. In hair-tearing frustration, the DM flees to an online message board and asks "How can I keep my players from messing up my story?"

If the DMs he consults are wise, they will say "Stop trying to make it your story. Your game is not about you or the NPCs you create; it is about the player characters. Keep the focus on them, let them drive the story, and the game will be fun."

///

I have an enormous amount of respect for Riot because of the difficult tasks they set for themselves and regularly succeed at. The Player Behavior team doesn't just ban all the flamers--they are committed to reforming some of the most toxic gamers on the Internet. The team that redid Summoner's Rift didn't just make a gorgeous new map, they optimized it until it would run as well or better than the old one, even with all the new details they added in. New champions that Riot designs aren't just fun to play, they're fun to play against. Any of these teams could have settled for "good enough", and at most companies that would have been just fine, but Riot consistently sets very high goals for themselves and achieves them. That's just how they roll, and that's what made me a fan of this company.

Why is it imperative that a 5v5 game is deeply connected to our characters? -- RiotOpheli

That's why I'm disappointed in the Narrative team. With quotes like the above, they are declining to tackle the tough problem of creating a meaningful narrative within the context of a MOBA. The Narrative team seems to believe that creating a meaningful narrative adjacent to a MOBA is good enough.

Creating an evolving story in a competitive game is an incredibly tough problem. (See this Extra Credits episode that examines why this is difficult.) I am sympathetic to the challenges Riot faces. But the path they're pursuing now won't work because it excludes the one special thing games bring to storytelling: player choice.

Different forms of storytelling have different strengths; this is why converting a successful book into a movie doesn't always work. The stories games tell are special because their outcome is not predetermined. They demand that the player decide moment-to-moment what happens next, and they succeed most powerfully when the player looks back on them and says "This is my story. The decision as to what kind of story would be told was mine, and I am satisfied with my decision."

This was the strength and downfall of the Mass Effect series. BioWare empowered player choice in a way that no-one had ever seen before, with countless small but meaningful choices accumulating across hundreds of hours of play, allowing each player to create a narrative tailored to them personally, rich and hearty with unforgettable moments and characters. And when it was revealed in the end that those choices did **not **matter nearly as much as people expected they would, the players revolted.

So when Riot's Narrative team embarks on a venture to build a story for this game in a way that's completely divorced from player choice, I am disappoint. They will produce some quality material, I am sure--Azir's story was quite interesting--but it will never be as good as it could have been, because they're leaving out the ingredient that makes games special. They're putting out content like a movie studio (writing stories in isolation, marketing them with teasers, and releasing them when they're done) rather than a Dungeon Master (collaborating with players and weaving their ideas and choices into the storyline).

It's a huge challenge, but if they abandon their current course, I believe Riot can create something special. The MOBA field is not barren of multiplayer storytelling ideas! Dawngate treats every game played as a vote for one choice or another in a massively multiplayer Choose Your Own Adventure game. League Factions writes new lore every month guided by tournaments on Summoner's Rift. It can be done, and I so want Riot to try. Please don't let me down!

68 Comments

Spellbound187520 votes

...Games don't have choice though. They have the illusion of choice. You are on rails, moving from point A to point B and you may be able to steer your character a bit but you don't decide your destiny or the outcome. Even Mass Effect 2 had this. You always end up fighting the Collectors. Whether or not you do the optional missions is your choice, but no one can die on them. Success is literally the only option unless you turn the game off. Death is a slap on the wrist, and even the suicide mission ending where you and everyone in your squad dies isn't meaningful choice. It's the game telling you to go play out all the nice padding Bioware wrote for you. When I finished Mass Effect 3 I thought the ending was bad because it was lazy and had plot holes. When people started complaining about lack of choice I didn't understand it. You never had any choice that someone didn't write for you in advance. If you assume a game should meet that standard you are going to be disappointed.

Beyond this, in a multiplier game player choice is even less likely to exist. You can't let everyone make meaningful choices that affect characterization. There are too many people and too many ways to value their opinions. But even if they could manage to provide this to everyone... well that would be a new thing wouldn't it?

In the old league of legend lore you never made a meaningful choice. They just had an awkward moba story that was designed to justify a game with no purpose. Why do these characters come together and kill each other over and over again while making no progress on their goals? In the short term it worked but it did so by assuming the story would never progress. Then league got bigger, more champions came and it became harder to justify why they'd come here to fight. I honestly don't find Riot's decision to cut out a big piece of useless lore out to be a bad move. Just as they've been removing poor design decisions from the game. AP Tryndamere and AP Yi are old enough to have come from a time where the idea of spell scaling was still in it's infancy. The idea of AD spell scaling was just too weird. So champions with no reason to build ap were given gigantic ap ratios so that if they built a triforce they could at least feel like they were getting something from it. Riot looked back, saw this was a bad idea and rectified it. Rightly so I feel. Both were annoying ways of playing the game. They retcon lore all the time too. When they didn't change a champion and just the little blurb people didn't react with nearly this much vitriol.

And separating the game from story is a good thing in theory. It all comes down to what they do with it. The first thing I'm waiting on is a champion dying. With the overt separation between game and story that's an option that has finally opened up. I don't know if Riot is planning to do this but I feel if they aren't willing to use the freedom this change gives them then it really is just change for changes sake.

That got a bit off topic. The point I've been trying to make is, if you're going to decry this change, could you decry it for one of the more plausible reasons then pinning over something we never had. Like the lack of communication, arbitrariness of change, slowness of the alterations, etc.

Sneak Dog20 votes

They have choices. The choices often don't have consequences and may seem entirely meaningless, but they were made by the player. The player might decide to be cruel or merciful to this group of bandits he just met and will never meet again. It changes the players story, even though the games story might not even save the choice the player made.

Not everyone cares about these kinds of choices, but it can really help immersion.

CupcakeTrap15 votes

They have choices. The choices often don't have consequences and may seem entirely meaningless, but they were made by the player. The player might decide to be cruel or merciful to this group of bandits he just met and will never meet again. It changes the players story, even though the games story might not even save the choice the player made.

Not everyone cares about these kinds of choices, but it can really help immersion.

This isn't just theoretical.

Factions has been going for almost two years. The overwhelming majority of the content of the storyline so far has been determined through matches and player decisions in interactive lore events. We're no fancy lore department; we're a bunch of amateur volunteers. But I think the community's involvement in the story really deepens the level of immersion, and makes the events more impactful. It also keeps it exciting, because rather than some all-powerful author decreeing how the story will advance, events are unpredictable. Maybe I want to write a story about Zaun and Bandle City allying together. Great, but if the vote is put to Bandle City and it decides to backstab Zaun and throw in with Piltover (betrayordles!), that's where the story goes. And it's fun! I don't feel constrained; I feel energized. It leads me down paths that would have never occurred to me if I were making everything from whole cloth. It also allows people to not only make choices but also fight for them.

The setting provides a great framework for interactive storytelling. The League acts as a central nexus (so to speak) for the nations of Valoran, and provides a mechanism to connect major events with gameplay. It also allows us to naturally organize chapters of the story as discrete disputes before the League. Combine that with the concept of Summoners, and League is very well suited to bringing players into the story in a meaningful way.

I'm not speaking rhetorically when I say that I find Narrative's complaints about "being constrained" perplexing. Constraint often promotes creativity, and it's part and parcel of a task such as writing lore for a game.

Hellioning15 votes

But even in a game with absolutely no choice, such as, say, the Legend of Zelda series, you still feel like you accomplished something. Sure, in story, Link was the person who went through all those dungeons and saved Zelda, but you're the one controlling Link. Therefore, YOU are the person who saved Zelda and restored peace to Hyrule.

Compare that to a game that has a story disconnected from the gameplay, like the new League. Nothing you do in game matters in universe, because it doesn't happen in universe. Sure, this has advantages, otherwise Riot wouldn't have chosen this path, but the entire point of an interactive medium is to have it be interactive. They're basically trying to tell a literature story in a video game framework, and that doesn't work.

Spellbound18752 votes

But even in a game with absolutely no choice, such as, say, the Legend of Zelda series, you still feel like you accomplished something. Sure, in story, Link was the person who went through all those dungeons and saved Zelda, but you're the one controlling Link. Therefore, YOU are the person who saved Zelda and restored peace to Hyrule.

Compare that to a game that has a story disconnected from the gameplay, like the new League. Nothing you do in game matters in universe, because it doesn't happen in universe. Sure, this has advantages, otherwise Riot wouldn't have chosen this path, but the entire point of an interactive medium is to have it be interactive. They're basically trying to tell a literature story in a video game framework, and that doesn't work.

They aren't trying to tell it in a video game framework. They are trying to tell a literature story next to a game that features characters from the literature. The goal is to completely separate them. League has never allowed the players any serious interaction with the story so the thing you are suggesting isn't a change. It's the been this way all the time. Merely saying the players are summoners doesn't make the game put you in the game. It's just a framework. Being a summoner means/meant nothing at all to the game world.

Hellioning16 votes

WHY are they trying to tell a literature story when the characters come from a video game? This isn't Smash Bros. or another crossover game, the video game is the original origin of the characters. As such, the video game is the 'important' one, the one that everyone knows. If the literature you're writing has nothing to do with the original source, and nothing you do in the literature matters to the original source, you're just writing fan fiction. Fan fiction can be great, don't get me wrong, but it's just immensely disappointing that Riot just gave up and decided 'nope, we can't fugue out how to do this'.

Also: the Ionia/Noxus conflict that gave us Lucidity boots. TADA, there's your player interaction with the story. Being a summoner means that you could totally impact the game world, backing up the champions fighting on the fields, for glory and honor or money or whatever. I'm not saying Riot did it well, but when they did do it, it was pretty cool, and they should have tried to implement more of that instead of giving up.

Spellbound18753 votes

WHY are they trying to tell a literature story when the characters come from a video game? This isn't Smash Bros. or another crossover game, the video game is the original origin of the characters. As such, the video game is the 'important' one, the one that everyone knows. If the literature you're writing has nothing to do with the original source, and nothing you do in the literature matters to the original source, you're just writing fan fiction. Fan fiction can be great, don't get me wrong, but it's just immensely disappointing that Riot just gave up and decided 'nope, we can't fugue out how to do this'.

Also: the Ionia/Noxus conflict that gave us Lucidity boots. TADA, there's your player interaction with the story. Being a summoner means that you could totally impact the game world, backing up the champions fighting on the fields, for glory and honor or money or whatever. I'm not saying Riot did it well, but when they did do it, it was pretty cool, and they should have tried to implement more of that instead of giving up.

5 high level players won a few games and get to pick which item would be added to the game out of a group of items. Which may have been added later anyway. That is not a meaningful choice or impact it's a footnote. Unless that's what you consider meaningful in other videogames? Before they even played the game both of the outcomes had already been written. Beyond that I doubt the story would have gone any other way. Demacia and Noxus at war, the black rose conspiracy plot really didn't care what happened in the Ionian islands. Everything was going to happen exactly as it was written. And we don't even get to be in one of the seats during the ride. We read about it after the fact. Like reading a book. Frankly, this "change" in lore is Riot doing exactly what riot has done, just being more overt about it. They don't like the Institute existing because it stifles stories, which is true (everything in a world stifles the options available for a story), and they don't want to write it out because then they have to account for the summoners with world breaking power. Which is a pain to do in a way that isn't a deus ex machina. Though this will always be a matter of opinion.

We certainly don't do much backing up. We, per the lore, channel items and occasionally cast very weak spells, relative to the champions, even without items. I don't know how you could make the existence of summoners mean more to the game world without restructuring some of the base assumptions the game is build upon. It also seems like any type of change there would be... I don't know, odd? Summoners have never struck me as combat oriented in the lore. They just have a lot of power as a collective group, though frankly they seem to be a dime a dozen relative to a champion. Which is probably an accurate assessment. An individual summoner can cast 2 spells which are fairly weak and takes somewhere between 2 and 5 minutes before they can cast them again. I don't think by the lore we can give anymore support.

Though that is the problem with everyone of us being a player character. We never really get to see what the champions do or how they think. Normally a game gives you a protagonist to follow. League has none. Normally a game has a progression of levels. League has none. Normally a game as a clear antagonist who you struggle against. League has none. The MOBA structure makes a story nearly impossible because of the very framework it's based upon. Everything we know about the champions comes from their voice over and a written introduction. Our characters cannot be interacted with, nor can they interact with anything in the world directly. We can merely play the same few games over and over again. Nothing happens based on our playing, except for the option for a small group of people to usher in a few pre-written options. Which is, to be fair, the same for all games. Illusion of choice and all that.

CupcakeTrap10 votes

5 high level players won a few games and get to pick which item would be added to the game out of a group of items. Which may have been added later anyway. That is not a meaningful choice or impact it's a footnote.

That match also decided what happened to Ionia. Ionia might have developed very differently had Noxus prevailed in those matches.

With no disrespect meant toward pro players, I remember GuardsmanBob and Udyr saving Ionia much more vividly than I remember SamsungPink beating SamsungBlue after a near-loss to SamsungOrange to win the Giant Cup and a lifetime supply of Monster xTreme eSportz PowerSlam Beverage.

Spellbound18752 votes

5 high level players won a few games and get to pick which item would be added to the game out of a group of items. Which may have been added later anyway. That is not a meaningful choice or impact it's a footnote.

That match also decided what happened to Ionia. Ionia might have developed very differently had Noxus prevailed in those matches.

Ionia didn't really develop though. We just went to the next storyline. Which is kind of the problem with the summoner perspective. We don't really get to ride along and see the world change. We just read about it. This is because the focus of the game at that point was the Institute of War. Where we all lived basically. We were reading a newspaper about what was happening in this world but we were never a part of it. All we see is 10 people fighting to the death over and over again.

CupcakeTrap11 votes

Ionia didn't really develop though. We just went to the next storyline.

It did. Noxus was thrown out of Ionia. Ionia developed as a free nation, rather than as a partial protectorate of Noxus. Think of how Zed and Syndra's stories, or Karma or Irelia's stories, might have played out in an Ionia that had been brought within the Noxian sphere of influence.

Which is kind of the problem with the summoner perspective. We don't really get to ride along and see the world change. We just read about it. This is because the focus of the game at that point was the Institute of War. Where we all lived basically. We were reading a newspaper about what was happening in this world but we were never a part of it. All we see is 10 people fighting to the death over and over again.

Summoners do spend a lot of time at the Institute, but there's absolutely no reason they can't go off on adventures as well. For example, if Quinn had brought a Summoner to the Freljord with her, maybe she'd be able to come back with something a little more actionable than "I saw some people talking in a funny language and worshipping something! WE MUST ACT NOW!" I've been making a concerted effort to include Summoners more often in Factions lore. Actually, we've started having people write up their Summoner characters in more detail, so we can use "actual" Summoners in the stories.

Just off the top of my head. I think those examples count as "riding along and seeing the world change"; in fact, I think they're more than that.

As for what you and I can do, well, again, look at the Factions approach. Let people fight for their factions to determine how the storyline shapes up, give them opportunities to decide how their faction will react to events, and generally take advantage of the Summoner frame to immerse people in the story.

Spellbound18753 votes

Ionia didn't really develop though. We just went to the next storyline.

It did. Noxus was thrown out of Ionia. Ionia developed as a free nation, rather than as a partial protectorate of Noxus. Think of how Zed and Syndra's stories, or Karma or Irelia's stories, might have played out in an Ionia that had been brought within the Noxian sphere of influence.

Which is kind of the problem with the summoner perspective. We don't really get to ride along and see the world change. We just read about it. This is because the focus of the game at that point was the Institute of War. Where we all lived basically. We were reading a newspaper about what was happening in this world but we were never a part of it. All we see is 10 people fighting to the death over and over again.

Summoners do spend a lot of time at the Institute, but there's absolutely no reason they can't go off on adventures as well. For example, if Quinn had brought a Summoner to the Freljord with her, maybe she'd be able to come back with something a little more actionable than "I saw some people talking in a funny language and worshipping something! WE MUST ACT NOW!" I've been making a concerted effort to include Summoners more often in Factions lore. Actually, we've started having people write up their Summoner characters in more detail, so we can use "actual" Summoners in the stories.

Just off the top of my head. I think those examples count as "riding along and seeing the world change"; in fact, I think they're more than that.

As for what you and I can do, well, again, look at the Factions approach. Let people fight for their factions to determine how the storyline shapes up, give them opportunities to decide how their faction will react to events, and generally take advantage of the Summoner frame to immerse people in the story.

You didn't respond to my first point. You said "It could have been different if something would have been different". That's not really a point. Ionia didn't change, culturally, economically, or socially. Because it was barely a place to begin with. Afterwards we didn't hear much about it. We went over to the Noxus/Demacia crisis. I guess it's a case of showing rather then telling. Riot did not show any change. From a player perspective nothing actually happened. Noxus left 3 small islands. Which we only know because Riot told us. We did not experience it. We didn't even watch it. We heard about how it all happened in this way. Just like reading a newspaper.

Summoners, in fluff would die in droves if they actually had to leave their safe tower from where they work their summoner magic. This is literally the reason why champions are in this game. Because summoners aren't able to fight on their level. They would literally be a millstone for the Champions, as Riot defined them. And your summoner fix only works if those players are actually doing the interaction. If you write about it that's like writing myself into someone else's world. I can say I'm there but I am not experiencing anything. It isn't so much immersive as... writing about immersive experiences. It might be immersive for the writer I guess, but not in a player character type way. It's a writer being immersed in his world, he is the one creating it, not participating in it. Sorry, that's hard to explain. I did a pretty poor job of it. I posted some of my issues with Factions in another comment. Basically a lot of it comes down to shallow and inconsistent characterization. Also the Void characterization makes me sad, but that's a personal complaint, not a professional one.

CupcakeTrap6 votes

Basically a lot of it comes down to shallow and inconsistent characterization. Also the Void characterization makes me sad, but that's a personal complaint, not a professional one.

That was a pretty intensely negative comment. I feel like I should apologize to you personally for the horrific sins I've committed against your mind.

If you've got suggestions, I'm happy to hear them.

If you've written lore that is so solid that I should close Factions down and just establish a redirect to your site, please link it so that I can become enlightened and save myself and staff a lot of time and energy.

At the end of the day, though, I feel like you're grousing about how impossible it is to have immersion and involvement in the League setting. In my experience, it's very possible, and I've had a tremendous amount of fun with it. Others seem to enjoy it as well, which is why we keep pouring our energy into this project. (On that note, I hope you'll forgive me if I'm a little spiny when you come by and make some blanket statement about how terrible it is and that you wish it had never existed. Forget about me, I'm just a crazy cupcake, but that seems deeply disrespectful to all the people who participate and contribute. I'm very proud of what we've accomplished together, and grateful that people would volunteer their time, energy, and talent to the cause of storytelling and other creative funtimes.) Your response to my statement that I find it fun is that you don't find it fun. I can't argue with that. I can ask you what you think we could do to make it more fun for yourself, or others who share your sensibilities. I could invite you to take a try at creating something better. But I'm not really prepared to argue that you should be having fun. Narrative spends a lot of time arguing that we in the lore community should find the Great Retcon super-awesome and cool, but it hasn't worked for them; I doubt I'd have better luck with you.

Spellbound18754 votes

Shallow and inconsistent are not meant to be negative, though I see how it could be seen as that it retrospect and I would like to apologize for it. By shallow I meant... well not very in depth. I have the same issue with the current League of Legends lore actually. Hence why I'm interested in these changes Riot is talking about. The idea of continually updated character pieces appeals to me because it allows long term character development. Assuming Riot doesn't mess it up. Which is very possible. The point would be getting a deeper understanding of the characters and what makes them tick. Event focused pieces often miss out on this, unless they show thoughts, which is difficult when multiple point of view characters are in a scene.

And inconsistent is... well to be expected when you have many contributors who aren't always on the same page on what a character thinks and does. Community voting has a tendency to do the same thing. I suppose those phrases are traditionally associated with an intense dislike when really it's more like a mild disappointment. I'd heard a lot about it, gotten kind of hyped up, read it and found it to be less then my unreasonable expectation.

I didn't find the material to be bad. Just not what I was looking for, due to the reasons above. I don't want you to stop making it, or to even value my opinion on it. It's just how I felt on it. I'm a person who values characters on their own. I like to take them apart and debate motivations. In any source where many people contribute without stringent oversight characterization tends to drift a bit. I can't read the extended universe of Star Wars for the same reason. Regardless of the quality the characters can feel a bit schizophrenic at times. I will admit that the one Riven bit I put in the comic below annoyed me enough to get a rise out of me, but most of that is just me being dramatic. It's a bad habit. And even that could be rectified but it would take more material to fill that out. The Riven Swain interactions don't seem like they'd be bad to me. Neither of them is really aware of the other as far as I can tell and in Factions Swain not only pardoned her but admonished Singed in favor of her. It seems odd she'd view him as a Tyrant afterwards. Darius was drawn to him because he is a true Noxian. But that is just what I've gathered, no more right then any other interpretation. It was the disconnect between this occurrence and Riven later deriding him as a Tyrant that confused me. Anyway, I'd like to apologize for my lack of clarity. Please do not take this as a statement against your work. I enjoy the fact that people are organizing to pursue something they enjoy and I was happy to find some material to read.

Back on topic, I'm not trying to say immersion is impossible, I'm saying the league framework has little to nothing to do with that. You can get immersed in anything. I've gotten immersed in board games, books, music, etc. What I'm arguing is that the framework of league being changed doesn't change the possibility for immersion at all. This got bogged down in a debate on player choice and it's relevance, but you can be immersed in something that has absolutely no choice. I guess to phrase it more clearly, I don't think a change in league lore will effect the capacity for immersion, because I think league has a terrible framework for creating immersion and we have still managed it.

Sneak Dog10 votes

In the end, everyone dies due to the energy-death of the universe (correct me if I'm wrong...). Anything you or I do will probably do nothing to change this. We are still relevant and have our own stories though. The journey is what matters. Your choices don't need to have grand consequences, they just need to be yours to make and the story is now a little bit more your own.

The Ionia vs. Noxus game was good because we saw two factions actually duking it out as described in the lore and we saw fellow summoners do it. It was entirely imperfect because we didn't get to do it ourselves and add our own little note to the story.

Had Riot set up a system like Factions did (and I expected them to do so for quite some time), then every match within this system would've been a part of your own story in the universe. Of course there couldn't be millions of summoners in the IoW, but that isn't important. What is important is that you, the player, can feel immersed in the game and feel like you're actually a summoner combining minds with your champion to fight for your faction.

Regardless, the old system secretly had some immersing factors. After every match you gained influence points which you could use to requisition new runes or convince new champions to summon you. As you level, you gain more mastery in summoning for your mastery points. These little things were very neat for immersion.

On top of that, some champion actually speak directly to you, the summoner, on the fields of justice. Cho'Gath tries to corrupt you (sort of, old VO). Veigar is constantly bickering over your supposed short puns. They all respond when you tell them to go somewhere.

I think Riot could have pushed this angle much harder, where Cho'Gath actively tries to corrupt you and then asks you to do something 'harmless', like summoning him in a custom game after which some scripted event happens (Cho walks off to do something fishy, ignoring your commands, you get the idea) and two weeks later you're revealed to be on the voids side in a grand void event.

Personally, I'm sort of ok with removing the IoW. I'm really sad about losing all immersion though. (And I'm entirely cynical about narrative due to them replacing champions, but that's a different topic.)

Spellbound18753 votes

In the end, everyone dies due to the energy-death of the universe (correct me if I'm wrong...). Anything you or I do will probably do nothing to change this. We are still relevant and have our own stories though. The journey is what matters. Your choices don't need to have grand consequences, they just need to be yours to make and the story is now a little bit more your own.

The Ionia vs. Noxus game was good because we saw two factions actually duking it out as described in the lore and we saw fellow summoners do it. It was entirely imperfect because we didn't get to do it ourselves and add our own little note to the story.

Had Riot set up a system like Factions did (and I expected them to do so for quite some time), then every match within this system would've been a part of your own story in the universe. Of course there couldn't be millions of summoners in the IoW, but that isn't important. What is important is that you, the player, can feel immersed in the game and feel like you're actually a summoner combining minds with your champion to fight for your faction.

Regardless, the old system secretly had some immersing factors. After every match you gained influence points which you could use to requisition new runes or convince new champions to summon you. As you level, you gain more mastery in summoning for your mastery points. These little things were very neat for immersion.

On top of that, some champion actually speak directly to you, the summoner, on the fields of justice. Cho'Gath tries to corrupt you (sort of, old VO). Veigar is constantly bickering over your supposed short puns. They all respond when you tell them to go somewhere.

I think Riot could have pushed this angle much harder, where Cho'Gath actively tries to corrupt you and then asks you to do something 'harmless', like summoning him in a custom game after which some scripted event happens (Cho walks off to do something fishy, ignoring your commands, you get the idea) and two weeks later you're revealed to be on the voids side in a grand void event.

Personally, I'm sort of ok with removing the IoW. I'm really sad about losing all immersion though. (And I'm entirely cynical about narrative due to them replacing champions, but that's a different topic.)

Your first point is arguable, but I don't think a philosophical debate on the value of existence is what you were looking for. :P I will leave it as is.

Your second point is also what I got out of it. A neat idea that lacks the value often ascribed to it.

I actually am really... unhappy with a lot of factions work. I feel characters are not portrayed consistently... or deeply. They are kind of really flat and that's disappointing to me. The characters are one note, or completely paper thin. A lot of them seem to be in story just to make references. They're caricatures of what people have read in their little blurbs. Also Riven. My God. People seem to forget that she is completely a-ok with killing someone for their stuff. She is a true Noxian. Strength above all. Do what you want as long as you can back it up. The problem is you have to do it fairly. About the point where she called Swain, the self-made, Grand general who gained power by starting from the ground up and earning influence, then beating out all of his rivals both politically and through strength alone, who had nothing to do with the Ionian invasion, the thing that caused Riven to decide that the current Noxus was corrupt, and who, in the factions lore, PARDONED HER AND AGREED THAT SINGED SHOULD NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH NOXUS, as a Tyrant. After he organized the defense of Noxus and repelled the Void. Sadly this is the reason why I'm happy Riot didn't do that. If the Champions have no real agency and events unfold due to the number of games a faction won we would be stuck focusing on the summoners, who I find intensely uninteresting.

The speaking to you directly bit is in game fluff for melding your minds. However the lines were never consistent. Some are funny, some are serious, some of internet jokes. Plus with skins the fact that you are in a videogame is so layered on any attempt at immersion is neraly impossible. Which isn't a bad thing actually. I prefer the game not being too serious. I prefer the game having the freedom to do these things, instead of trying to be this immersive story experience everyone talks about. Ironically they've gotten much better at immersion as the game has moved farther from the relevance of Summoners. The Garen visual rework even has jokes specifically for hitting on Kat. How much more immersive can you get then in game character interactions? Being able to make those humorous though? That's art. The influence points and the mastery points are, as mentioned in some of my other comments, things you have to accept. I won't give Riot credit for slapping a name on something integral to the games functioning because I read into and enjoyed it. That's something you choose to view as such, and it wasn't done with that as the main goal.

I don't think Riot could muster the resources for that. I main Cho though, so I sold my soul ages ago. :P At that point, when you require that much work to make the game immersive you might as well add a single player campaign, sort of deal. With it's own contained story. Which is just not feasible with Riot's resources. Not to mention updating would become a nightmare when an event was going to come out.

The replacing champions topic is something I feel should be discussed... and something I feel is a point that is much easier to argue, not to mention a valid concern. I don't really think immersion will be effected in any serious way. Unless you want it to be.

Sneak Dog5 votes

I don't think Riot could muster the resources for that. I main Cho though, so I sold my soul ages ago. :P At that point, when you require that much work to make the game immersive you might as well add a single player campaign, sort of deal. With it's own contained story. Which is just not feasible with Riot's resources. Not to mention updating would become a nightmare when an event was going to come out.

All VO work, metric tons of localization. Relatively little other things though, especially if you go with a subtle pop-up in your client where Malzahar 'sent you a letter' asking a small future favor/is grateful with your cooperation instead of going with my previously mentioned and quite ambitious custom game plan.

The speaking to you directly bit is in game fluff for melding your minds. However the lines were never consistent. Some are funny, some are serious, some of internet jokes. Plus with skins the fact that you are in a videogame is so layered on any attempt at immersion is nearly impossible. Which isn't a bad thing actually. I prefer the game not being too serious. I prefer the game having the freedom to do these things, instead of trying to be this immersive story experience everyone talks about.

I think if you consistently portray a champions character, you can quite well immerse someone even in a competitive game. Puns/jokes are fine as long as they are relatively in-character or the /joke command. Could I point towards the new Heimerdinger having a neat VO that combines the silliness while keeping him in-character?

Obviously there's limits to the immersion in a competitive game focusing on gameplay, but I liked how technically, everything was canon. The details had names and some logic behind them. The little things really help me with immersion and I value immersion highly. Then the champions actually talking to *you *is awesome.

I've discussed the replacing champions for over a year since Trundle. You ought to be able to find me in recent relevant threads quite easily I fear. For this topic, I think we understand eachothers reasoning now, good post (though feel free to reply once more if I'm wrong, I'm on the forums because I like discussions).

CupcakeTrap4 votes

I actually am really... unhappy with a lot of factions work. I feel characters are not portrayed consistently... or deeply. They are kind of really flat and that's disappointing to me. The characters are one note, or completely paper thin. A lot of them seem to be in story just to make references. They're caricatures of what people have read in their little blurbs.

Okay, all I'm getting from this is "you are a terrible writer. Stop being a terrible writer." I'll get on that.

Also Riven. My God. People seem to forget that she is completely a-ok with killing someone for their stuff. She is a true Noxian. Strength above all. Do what you want as long as you can back it up. The problem is you have to do it fairly.

I don't know if Riven even cares about fighting "fair", for most definitions of fair. I suppose techmaturgic weapons of mass destruction deployed on civilian targets are indeed "unfair", but that seems a rather mild term.

About the point where she called Swain, the self-made, Grand general who gained power by starting from the ground up and earning influence, then beating out all of his rivals both politically and through strength alone, who had nothing to do with the Ionian invasion, the thing that caused Riven to decide that the current Noxus was corrupt, and who, in the factions lore, PARDONED HER AND AGREED THAT SINGED SHOULD NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH NOXUS, as a Tyrant.

He agreed not to bargain with Singed in the fight for the Mirrorwater. She fought for him then. She fought for him again during the invasion of Shon-Xan. She broke with him after what he did at the end of that conflict.

After he organized the defense of Noxus and repelled the Void. Sadly this is the reason why I'm happy Riot didn't do that. If the Champions have no real agency and events unfold due to the number of games a faction won…

It isn't Summoners who are punching each other in the face during those games, you know.

Spellbound18755 votes

I would like to apologize for my lack of clarity. My other post attempted to explain the word choice. I did not mean to gravely offend. I will not repeat myself here, but I hope the other post is clear enough. If not feel free to ask for clarification.

Though I feel I should be clearer on the reference bit. Sometimes a champion just seems to be there in a scene to be in the scene. This isn't bad, but it leads me to the lack of depth in the characterization. Lots of characters with small roles will always have less characterization then longer more focused pieces. "Paper thin" was a particularly bad choice on my part. :(

On the Riven thing, the point I guess I was trying to get across is you win through strength. Not through using others as stepping stones. The issue was instead of letting the soldiers earn their deaths honorably they were discarded like trash by the High Command. It kind of goes against the idea of being able to earn your place through your own ability. Noxians are not pawns and all that. So fair for her would be "seen as a soldier, rather than a pawn". For the next point it is worth noting that Swain did not serve in that campaign, and in fact could easily be seen as a reformer of a kind for the government of Noxus. The same way that Darius is a reformer. Violently. But Riven wouldn't have any problems with that. If you were fit to rule you wouldn't have lost.

"Her duty was to the people of Noxus, and not to the tyrant who currently ruled the nation." This is taken from the prelude to the Shon-Xan. Which seems to be before your timeline on this matter. This came out of nowhere but seemed contrary to not only Riven's characterization thus far, but her Noxian nature. It is nice to know, if I am reading what you said correctly, that this sentiment is in fact dropped before Swain actually earned that contempt.

Lack of champion agency is exactly the problem. They rarely seem to pursue their own goals. They are reactive to what is happening around them. Generally by being called to fight in the League. Summoners have a less reactive role then the champions in a lot of situations. For one thing, most of them have day jobs. Basically this desire for champions to act on their own is why I'm interested in the character pieces Riot is working on. It's all about the champion, their goals, and what they are doing to pursue them. Hopefully. Could still suck. Anyway, the most proactive champion I've seen so far in Factions is Malzahar. Clear motivation, capitalized on the Demacians mistake and wreaked up about half of the heavily populated areas on Runeterra. Pretty much exactly what he was going for. I know villains tend to be the driving force of the plot but sometimes a nice piece on, say Quinn just going out into the woods to do her own thing, along with her thoughts would be nice. (I'm not particulary interested in Quinn personally but it seems like it would fit her character to do something like that). Unfortunately those types of pieces specifically block player input. It's about the character after all.

CupcakeTrap5 votes

Okay, now I'm the one who's sorry. I think I took your post more aggressively than it was meant.

"Her duty was to the people of Noxus, and not to the tyrant who currently ruled the nation." This is taken from the prelude to the Shon-Xan. Which seems to be before your timeline on this matter.

You know, a lot of the older lore is due for a revision. We're absolutely overwhelmed right now (actually, I should be editing a lore event and posting it instead of talking on the forums), but once this arc ends December 22 I plan to schedule a looooong Intermission so we can go through and clean things up. I think that might be one such example: I agree that Riven shouldn't be contemptuous of Swain at that point, unless I'm forgetting something major that happened before then. It's true that Swain had taken power pretty violently, but that's kind of how you get a job in Noxus, isn't it? ("Where's the lady who used to work in this cupcake bakery?" "She was weak. I was once but a cashier; she let her guard down while applying gumdrop eyes to the poro novelty cupcakes. In that moment, I heard the call of destiny: I slew her and took her place. Now I am the one called Cupcake Baker at Mr. Sprinkle's Cupcake Emporium.")

It's funny that you mention Swain; speaking of feedback, I spent a good chunk of today incorporating feedback into this Swain piece. (I think the main clash there was that a lot of people saw Swain as a refined, cultured, Vetinari sort of character, while I perceive him more as an "evil Dr. House"—gruff, brilliant, supremely arrogant.)

Anyway, the most proactive champion I've seen so far in Factions is Malzahar.

Also funny, because Malzahar is one character whose characterization I've regretted; I feel that by having him try and fail so many times, he's in danger of being unintentionally comedic. Too much "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME, GADGET!" I hadn't realized how scary and badass he actually is.

Anyway, I'm going to get back to work on this stuff that was probably supposed to be posted up yesterday, but I'll come back and take another look at your posts. I really do appreciate criticism, and I look forward to reading yours.

Spellbound18753 votes

Okay, now I'm the one who's sorry. I think I took your post more aggressively than it was meant.

"Her duty was to the people of Noxus, and not to the tyrant who currently ruled the nation." This is taken from the prelude to the Shon-Xan. Which seems to be before your timeline on this matter.

You know, a lot of the older lore is due for a revision. We're absolutely overwhelmed right now (actually, I should be editing a lore event and posting it instead of talking on the forums), but once this arc ends December 22 I plan to schedule a looooong Intermission so we can go through and clean things up. I think that might be one such example: I agree that Riven shouldn't be contemptuous of Swain at that point, unless I'm forgetting something major that happened before then. It's true that Swain had taken power pretty violently, but that's kind of how you get a job in Noxus, isn't it? ("Where's the lady who used to work in this cupcake bakery?" "She was weak. I was once but a cashier; she let her guard down while applying gumdrop eyes to the poro novelty cupcakes. In that moment, I heard the call of destiny: I slew her and took her place. Now I am the one called Cupcake Baker at Mr. Sprinkle's Cupcake Emporium.")

It's funny that you mention Swain; speaking of feedback, I spent a good chunk of today incorporating feedback into this Swain piece. (I think the main clash there was that a lot of people saw Swain as a refined, cultured, Vetinari sort of character, while I perceive him more as an "evil Dr. House"—gruff, brilliant, supremely arrogant.)

Anyway, the most proactive champion I've seen so far in Factions is Malzahar.

Also funny, because Malzahar is one character whose characterization I've regretted; I feel that by having him try and fail so many times, he's in danger of being unintentionally comedic. Too much "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME, GADGET!" I hadn't realized how scary and badass he actually is.

Anyway, I'm going to get back to work on this stuff that was probably supposed to be posted up yesterday, but I'll come back and take another look at your posts. I really do appreciate criticism, and I look forward to reading yours.

Don't worry about it. :P Misinterpretations happen. I'm just glad we were able to talk it out. XD I can understand being overwhelmed. You have a lot of material. I'm still working through it. Just finished the Riven Yasuo piece, which is much closer to what I've been craving. Focuses on the motivations of two conflicted characters. Easily my favorite piece so far.

People think Swain isn't gruff? :P I haven't read that far yet (though I'll get to it soon enough) but I tend to agree with you more. I see Swain as being halfway between the Aristocratic "Old Noxus" (LeBlanc, Vladimir, Cassiopeia) and the more pragmatic "New Noxus" (Darius, Katarina). He could be cultured and refined in theory but his personality makes him awkward at all those Black Rose dinner parties. :P Also that's probably the best description of Noxus I've seen so far. XD

While the Void characterization is where I differ from Factions the most in personal taste I think the issues is not him failing so much. His failures destroy civilizations. It's the fact that he literally can never win or else every living thing on Runeterra dies. Which makes using him difficult. He has to fail and he can't even fail like he did the first time or else Valeron will be depopulated. If I had one complaint about Malzahar specifically it's that he comes off as a bit too hammy. While he is certainly a Zealot for the Void he tends to come off as more subdued with his lines in game. Booming vocals are hard to differentiate in text form so while I hear him hamming it up I doubt that was intended. If you are worrying about Malz being overused for terrifying other worldly threat, Cho'gath and Vel'koz are both intelligent enough to be in charge of something large scale enough to be noteworthy, but subtle enough to not involve a full scale invasion. I'd assume the Voidhas some interest in Runeterra beyond just using them as food. But I'm ranting now. XD Sorry about that. Anyway good luck with the revisions. I look forward to reading them. ^_^

CupcakeTrap3 votes

I can understand being overwhelmed. You have a lot of material. I'm still working through it.

Yeah, it's actually kind of a problem lately. I'm trying to find more lore people for staff. I might just sleep for a week when Nyroth ends. I'm fantasizing about a month- or two-month-long "scored intermission" that'll give us some time to rest. And on that note, I should go to bed; I'll have to do the Harrowing update tomorrow. But a few more comments.

I have to say, looking back on some of the older Factions lore, I find some of it really weak and in need of revision. I suppose the bright side is that this indicates I've gotten better. But yeah, I'm going to enjoy taking the time to fix all this stuff up.

Just finished the Riven Yasuo piece, which is much closer to what I've been craving. Focuses on the motivations of two conflicted characters. Easily my favorite piece so far.

Thanks! I think that's probably the fight scene I'm happiest with, in terms of the flow. I also liked the opportunity for Riven to snap at him and tell him to stop wasting her time.

People think Swain isn't gruff? :P I haven't read that far yet (though I'll get to it soon enough) but I tend to agree with you more. I see Swain as being halfway between the Aristocratic "Old Noxus" (LeBlanc, Vladimir, Cassiopeia) and the more pragmatic "New Noxus" (Darius, Katarina). He could be cultured and refined in theory but his personality makes him awkward at all those Black Rose dinner parties. :P Also that's probably the best description of Noxus I've seen so far. XD

(Warning: a lot of the Nyroth lore is fragmentary and unlinked. Like I mentioned, I'm aiming to clean that all up and get everything properly linked this week. I only consider the first three updates truly "publishable" at the moment.)

I think Swain considers himself too smart and too powerful to play at appearances. As for the Noxian spectrum, I agree, and that's how I wrote him in The True Noxus, but he's gone more and more New Noxus with time. I suppose there's a risk of deviating too far from his core character there. I'd actually place Darius and Kat more in the middle relative to current Swain, who's obsessed with victory at any cost and has fully embraced the New Noxus. (Philomelle drew a nice allusion to the transition from classical/medieval combat to WWII "industrial" combat that I think captures some of their sense of alienation.)

While the Void characterization is where I differ from Factions the most in personal taste I think the issues is not him failing so much. His failures destroy civilizations. It's the fact that he literally can never win or else every living thing on Runeterra dies.

Actually, this might be where we agree the most, and I think these are related issues. One of my biggest regrets is making the Void out to be a demon-horde of conquering monsters. I've tried to recover by essentially saying that, while Voidling hordes are a thing, that's only one aspect of the Void. My current vision is more of the Void as something akin to the Shadows from Babylon 5: a corrupting, alien influence creeping in around the edges.

Then again, I think you might really like Hextech Revolution that way. It's got some of that "rampaging Void horde" thing going on, but in a way, it represents the gradual victory of the Void as the contamination spreads from Icathia and Noxus into Shurima.

In terms of the pros and cons of a storyline that depends on community input and randomness, I think Hextech Revolution presents two good "pro" examples. Not to spoil anything, but there's a character named Nefara who arose entirely because Bandle City got curious, then rolled really poorly on the results table and landed on a square that I'd labeled with something like "something awful, like a Void-corrupted Shuriman lich attacks Bandle City". And then at the end…well, that was a collision of randomness and factional decisions that I think ended up pretty epic, perhaps all the more because actual matches determined how it played out. Could have gone very differently.

Sneak Dog2 votes

About Malzahar, I think he might just be playing a role to make him seem harmless to any summoner summoning him. He seems to love manipulating summoners and the IoW in the canon lore.

Spellbound18752 votes

About Malzahar, I think he might just be playing a role to make him seem harmless to any summoner summoning him. He seems to love manipulating summoners and the IoW in the canon lore.

Certainly true, though in Lore Malzahar is himself merely a puppet of something else. His goals have never been well defined, just that he has absolute faith in the fact that they Void will enter Runeterra. However he suggests you can survive if you were to worship the Void with some of his lines. Which contradicts a lot of the common ideas on what the Void would do when they arrived on Runeterra. I'd be curious to know if Cho'gath finds Malzahar and Kassadin repulsive in the same why he finds all other mortals repulsive. It's interesting that the only religions on Runeterra in official lore involve worshiping eldritch horrors from beyond the veil, ice demons, which may be related to the eldritch horrors from the beyond the veil, or undead monstrosities from the shadow isles. What's worse is that these Deities grant power and answer the prayers of their followers. Maybe Runeterra is screwed...

Earl Eulrich6 votes

Ever played the Witcher?

Thoug I tend to agree...the main strenght of Video-Game Narrative is the immense potential for immersion it bears compared to books and films, as you relive the struggles of the Characters first-hand (no matter if you have choices or not). If the story progresses it´s not just because the narration went on, but because of everything the player accomplised - so you feel more involved with what happens. Unfortunately it´s exactly the immersion that got destroyed by Riot seperating Gameplay&Narration.

Tal99221 votes

This guy knows what he's talking about. I'm struggling to convey how refreshing your voice sounds in the volcano of angst that erupted from the community after the ret con. It seems like everyone is missing the point(s) with what was the actual problem with LoL's lore and how this retcon aims to fix it, and your posts in this thread cut right to the heart of it. I would have put this in a private message, but it seems those don't exist in these boards so let me tell you here- I've upvoted almost all your comments here, and thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one who's actually kind of hopeful/optimistic as to what Riot will come up with next.

Spellbound18751 votes

This guy knows what he's talking about. I'm struggling to convey how refreshing your voice sounds in the volcano of angst that erupted from the community after the ret con. It seems like everyone is missing the point(s) with what was the actual problem with LoL's lore and how this retcon aims to fix it, and your posts in this thread cut right to the heart of it. I would have put this in a private message, but it seems those don't exist in these boards so let me tell you here- I've upvoted almost all your comments here, and thank you for letting me know I'm not the only one who's actually kind of hopeful/optimistic as to what Riot will come up with next.

Thank you for your kind remarks. :) It's nice to know I'm not alone either. XD

Baval13 votes

Bad DMs scrap the whole campaign and cry on the forums because they cant think of what to do next (looking at you Rito)

Good DMs turn that NPC into a random dude and promote another random dude into the future heir. Players are none the wiser.

Great DMs continue the campaign as planned and let the PCs investigate many long levels to find the missing heir only to find out they murdered him. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hckIjL7z5z4

Damorion2159 votes

Lore team done fucked up. Only way they can actually make things better is if they reverse the retcon. I doubt whatever they come up with next will be better than what they already had.

CupcakeTrap3 votes

Lore team done fucked up. Only way they can actually make things better is if they reverse the retcon. I doubt whatever they come up with next will be better than what they already had.

There is a silver lining: by recusing themselves from the task of handling the League of Legends itself, they are no longer capable of screwing it up. (Well, there's the pending rewrite to Summoners, but still.)

So, come join Factions and we'll continue implementing their episodic champ-stories into the evolving League-centered community continuity.

At the end of the day, the "reality" of all such things is based on imagination and make-believe. Riot does not hold a monopoly on that.

Damorion2153 votes

Yeah, I've actually got a LoL fanfic that I haven't worked on in months. So I might join Factions, who knows. I mean, even if they still went through with this retcon, I would have rather them ask the community about it before implementing it. That's what really pisses me off, is that they did this behind the fans' backs. And they claim to want to be the "best fan-based" company. Pfft!

CupcakeTrap1 votes

Yeah, I've actually got a LoL fanfic that I haven't worked on in months. So I might join Factions, who knows. I mean, even if they still went through with this retcon, I would have rather them ask the community about it before implementing it. That's what really pisses me off, is that they did this behind the fans' backs. And they claim to want to be the "best fan-based" company. Pfft!

Agreed and agreed.

I'd love to have you in the Factions community!

metriccybernetic1 votes

You see, I would love to join Factions, but I'm still very new to the game, have one champion to my name (soon hopefully 2) and would probably bring down my teammates through sheer suckiness XD.

Diana x Me9 votes

I feel like everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room. The retcon basically makes the game name no longer LoL because their is no league it's just a bunch of random people but, Warriors of runeterra that end up some how all agreeing to be on a team of 5 random people vs another team of 5 random people that some how came to the agreement to fight the other team in a hidden arena in the middle of nowhere. Some how knowing this place will resurrect them when they die, while also knowing that some guy will give you stuff if you give him invisible coins that you don't actually pick up when you kill things to make you stronger. The game.

Alright, now that's the Canon version of it in which you are the champion and summoner no longer exist which now gives reasons as to why they are fighting in this arena. Bona a tutti?:

Motajo3 votes

Technically, there is no canon version, as gameplay isn't canon at all.

But I agree; why make game lore that doesn't include any of the game it's made for? It almost feels like they want to create other games (or whatever) from their new "Runeterra canon." I like the idea of possible spin-offs by itself, but this just gives me a bad gut-feeling.

Diana x Me2 votes

Technically, there is no canon version, as gameplay isn't canon at all.

But I agree; why make game lore that doesn't include any of the game it's made for? It almost feels like they want to create other games (or whatever) from their new "Runeterra canon." I like the idea of possible spin-offs by itself, but this just gives me a bad gut-feeling.

Basically I was saying that my example would be the closest thing we could have to actual game play that would make sense canon wise.

Done256 votes

Actually Spell, I must disagree with you! Riot can and ALREADY HAS done this very own thing. When Rengar and Kha'zix are on other teams, the one to kill the other gets a unique bonus. When Vi/Cait are fighting Jinx a little counter shows up to show who has defeated the other one. Just little touches like that bring the game to life.

Imagine if the first of Ashe, Sejuiani, or Lissandra to reach level 18 got a 10% stat buff and was declared winner of their war.

Spellbound18754 votes

Actually Spell, I must disagree with you! Riot can and ALREADY HAS done this very own thing. When Rengar and Kha'zix are on other teams, the one to kill the other gets a unique bonus. When Vi/Cait are fighting Jinx a little counter shows up to show who has defeated the other one. Just little touches like that bring the game to life.

Imagine if the first of Ashe, Sejuiani, or Lissandra to reach level 18 got a 10% stat buff and was declared winner of their war.

That's not really a choice. It's something that sometimes happens. Which isn't bad but right now we are debating the value of choice in games. You don't choose to die first, or to get the assist and get the buff for being the ultimate predator. The counter kills is amusing but ultimately changes nothing about the game. After a match everything is reset. Nothing is resolved. It is illusory. Which let me stress again isn't bad. It's actually quite nice. But we shouldn't call it something it isn't. I will admit Riot's lore changes were done poorly but the core piece, making League's story and game separate is the best option for future story telling. Whether or not you feel the institute of war was a millstone dragging the story down or that the lore department is throwing out the baby with the bathwater is a valid discussion, one I don't mind having. But it has nothing to do with player choice.

Chaotic Reks3 votes

you can choose to play against that champion in draft. BOOM Player choice 101

Spellbound18751 votes

you can choose to play against that champion in draft. BOOM Player choice 101

That would be steering. You can make minor choices in any game. Like which direction to walk, whether to attack npc's, whether to follow the main quest or search for secrets. But none of this changes the end result. And since no game in league makes a difference in the overall story there is no end result. And because there is no progression there cannot be meaningful choices on the players part.

Motajo4 votes

no game in league makes a difference in the overall story there is no end result.

Matches don't make a difference in the overall story because Riot hasn't even tried to let them since the Ionia vs Noxus Rematch.

Spellbound18752 votes

no game in league makes a difference in the overall story there is no end result.

Matches don't make a difference in the overall story because Riot hasn't even tried to let them since the Ionia vs Noxus Rematch.

Which still means most player never have any effect on the game. Ever. Which was my point. It's not possible to make enough games matter for any consistency. And even then it didn't really do much. It just got us a new item and ended a conflict. Which is all the institute does. It ends conflicts before they can really grow. 10 people stop a conflict in 3-5 fights to the death.

Baron Von Bangin5 votes

But when you have even a single instance of player interaction changing story, precedence exists. By taking that away you remove ALL possibility of ever having player interaction again. At least before there was room to actually delve further into that kind of story telling rather than just saying "NAW, FUCK IT. Let's just NEVER have players affect the story."

I think people are more upset about that more than anything. At least the possibility existed for and expanded version of the Ionia v. Noxus kind of thing, whereas now there is none.

Spellbound18753 votes

But when you have even a single instance of player interaction changing story, precedence exists. By taking that away you remove ALL possibility of ever having player interaction again. At least before there was room to actually delve further into that kind of story telling rather than just saying "NAW, FUCK IT. Let's just NEVER have players affect the story."

I think people are more upset about that more than anything. At least the possibility existed for and expanded version of the Ionia v. Noxus kind of thing, whereas now there is none.

Except, as I have tried to explain it was still fake. It was pretty much identical to Riot flipping a coin to decide if Noxus leaves or not. Both stories were written, and then the change in focus meant that regardless of who one we would get on with the real story (Noxus and Demacia almost starting a war). My problem with portraying that as player interaction changing the story which it did not. It's a simple trick to create the illusion of choice. I actually DM and when something is important all roads lead to it. The players are choosing a road but the end result is the same. Important interactions are the same. The story as a whole is the same. The point being players have never affected the story.

Sneak Dog8 votes

I think I'm going to repeat what I said somewhere else in this thread too. You didn't force the players to take a certain road, you left that up to them. You merely ensured that in the end, they'd reach a certain goal. They chose their road and that already changed the story. In some way that perhaps only matters to them, the story is changed and is now a little bit more theirs. The end result is the same nevertheless, but that isn't the point. The players have affected the story and made it a little bit more theirs.

In Noxus vs. Ionia, both stories were written, but which one would be the true one was to be determined by ten brave summoners. They affected the story by their performance and Bob with Udyr managed to free Ionia, putting his own small personal stamp on the story. All of us that didn't participate didn't get to put our stamp on the story though, sadly. That's a problem with the format.

On a different note, just going through and experiencing a story can also be fun. It just won't be your story.

Spellbound18754 votes

From my perspective, the game had no inherent relation to the result though. It was not through the players actions in particular that we got there. In a table top game you directly interact with the world which makes the lack of control more acceptable in my mind. To save the writers the difficulty of adapting to literally anything, the end result is the same by the journey allows for the characters to flesh themselves out, and in doing so bring the world to life. League has never allowed that because its world cannot be interacted with in a direct fashion. All we can do is fight on the fields of justice.

Sneak Dog2 votes

Technically, fighting on the fields of justice is interacting with Runeterra, but besides that I agree. The players never had meaningful choices and those are more interesting than meaningless choices.

Spellbound18752 votes

Technically, fighting on the fields of justice is interacting with Runeterra, but besides that I agree. The players never had meaningful choices and those are more interesting than meaningless choices.

It's technically accurate, but so far below what even a call of duty game lets you do that it feels bad holding it up as a valid example is more what I'm getting at. I feel the original point has merit, but the way people have been arguing against the retcon is not valid. Instead of arguing that Riot should be more clear on their intentions from the get go and that they shouldn't have done things in such a piece meal fashion, and that maybe a little warning would do nicely, are all valid complaints. Hell even arguing that the framework is usable and that changing it is lazy writing works. But arguing that it destroys the player immersion of a game that did basically nothing to immerse players seems... misplaced to me.

OblongOtter5 votes

New champions that Riot designs aren't just fun to play, they're fun to play against.

Yasuo Kalista

And this is a really cool idea, Riot would just need to be really smart to know how to do it properly.

Impetual2 votes

Here's a well thought out intelligent post. Let's hope for a red response from the narrative department.

I'm curious to hear what they would think about it.

Earl Eulrich7 votes

Well, not wanting to take anything away from it, but that´s at least the 50th well thought and ntelligent thread about the topic since the retcon....and yet to this day not a single one got a well thought and intelligent answer from Narrative.

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