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Illaoi is a Hedonist

A Superb Villain··35 votes·16,110 views

At its simplest definition Hedonism is "a school of thought that argues that pleasure is the primary or most important intrinsic good. In very simple terms, a hedonist strives to maximize net pleasure (pleasure minus pain)."

Comparing the basic understanding of hedonism to Illaoi's quotes draws interesting parallels, if not outright reflection.

> If I hate something, I destroy it. If I want something, I take it. > We are born knowing what to do. We must only act. > It is terrible to be satisfied. The world needs us to chase dreams. > Life is the sweetness of fruit, and the joy of battle! > Chase what is desired. > Honour? Duty? Ha! What your heart demands is all that matters. > Good? Evil? Why should we care for such things? > No love is impossible, my god demands you follow your desires. > Live your life, chase what you desire, what else matters? > Even if I die, I die in motion.

Taking her words at face value, Illaoi seems to fall under the category of Folk Hedonism, "a person who seeks out pleasure for themselves without any particular regard for their own future well-being or for the well-being of others."

Nothing terribly important, but I thought it was interesting; hedonists aren't frequently represented or explored in popular media.

Edit: One more interesting note is the etymology behind Nagakabouros' name. "Naga" comes from Hindu mythology and are entities which embody both human and serpent traits. "bouros" seems to reference Ouroboros, the tail-devouring snake, an icon that reflects the concept of an eternal return, similar to rebirth. Some of the earliest incarnations of this icon can be found in Hindu mythology as well, such as the animal halo that surrounds Shiva who represents the duality of creation and destruction. In addition to this, modern interpretations of Ouroboros occasionally involve the idea of self-destructive activity.

53 Comments

RiotBioluminescence19 votes

She always reminded me a little bit of a more martial version of the Sensates from Planescape, personally. I may be off the mark, though :D

EDIT: Maybe with a side of the Cipher faction from the same universe.

A Superb Villain11 votes

https://i0.wp.com/31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6bjicYAwK1rziwwco1_500.gif

Sorry. Some things I know, most I do not. Would you mind explaining it?

RiotBioluminescence12 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OBwXYfqq,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-11-19T13:19:57.688+0000)

https://i0.wp.com/31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6bjicYAwK1rziwwco1_500.gif

Sorry. Some things I know, most I do not. Would you mind explaining it?

No problem, and excellent gif.

Planescape is a D&D setting, probably most famously used in the (awesome) Planescape: Torment CRPG from Black Isle. The Planescape setting is a multiverse setting for D&D with many many planes of existence with their own rules and peoples etc - but some say at the heart of these multiverses is the magical city of Sigil. Sigil, the city of doors, holds portals to all planes and is a crossroads to many of these places - it's a hodgepodge of peoples and cultures. Ruling the city, was the Lady of Pain, but more practically, there are many factions that hold territory and influence within the city. Two of those factions (copied from the Wiki) were:

Society of Sensation ("Sensates"), who believe that accumulating experiential knowledge through the senses is the only way to achieve enlightenment. Their headquarters is the Civic Festhall, which features an endless series of entertainments and a library of magically stored experiences. They are remniscent of ancient Epicurianism, as well as the more modern empiricism.

and

Transcendent Order ("Ciphers"), who believe that by tapping in to the 'cadence' of the planes and acting through pure instinct they can achieve a higher state of being. Their headquarters is the Great Gymnasium, where members can train to improve their bodies and minds. Their philosophy could be considered similar to Taoism and Zen Buddhism.

Great setting, Planescape, and adds a big dollop of weird to any D&D game you might want to run.

A Superb Villain2 votes

Much obliged.

I can see the similarities you have noted, with some minor distinctions, of course; Sensates seem indiscriminate towards how something is experienced, whether pain or pleasure. Illaoi seems to focus more on pleasure, upholding it as a virtue while neglecting to mention pain's role in her belief outside of delivering a lesson. Continuing, I can see aspects of the Transcendent Order in her understanding of Nagakabouros' nature and its relation to souls. In a sense, her god is that enlightenment, perhaps a plane unto itself that all souls inhabit at one point or another, or existing in all souls simultaneously.

Sincarnation3 votes

{quoted}

No problem, and excellent gif.

Planescape is a D&D setting, probably most famously used in the (awesome) Planescape: Torment CRPG from Black Isle. The Planescape setting is a multiverse setting for D&D with many many planes of existence with their own rules and peoples etc - but some say at the heart of these multiverses is the magical city of Sigil. Sigil, the city of doors, holds portals to all planes and is a crossroads to many of these places - it's a hodgepodge of peoples and cultures. Ruling the city, was the Lady of Pain, but more practically, there are many factions that hold territory and influence within the city. Two of those factions (copied from the Wiki) were:

and

Great setting, Planescape, and adds a big dollop of weird to any D&D game you might want to run.

Aye, it is a great setting. You get anyone in your group who has made the mistake of fucking with the Lady of Pain?

RiotBioluminescence3 votes

{quoted}

Aye, it is a great setting. You get anyone in your group who has made the mistake of fucking with the Lady of Pain?

Not for long, that's for sure.

Sincarnation3 votes

{quoted}

Not for long, that's for sure.

Commandment One of Planescape: Thou Shalt Not Fuck with the Lady of Pain

Context for the unaware: The Lady of Pain singlehandedly prevents Gods from entering her city despite them all wanting to enter. I wanna say that if her shadow passes over you it flays you alive or some other horrible torment. In addition to torment she has a tendency to take people she doesn't like and lock them in damn near endless mazes while simultaneously not letting them die for eternal suffering and punishment.

Stexe2 votes

{quoted}

No problem, and excellent gif.

Planescape is a D&D setting, probably most famously used in the (awesome) Planescape: Torment CRPG from Black Isle. The Planescape setting is a multiverse setting for D&D with many many planes of existence with their own rules and peoples etc - but some say at the heart of these multiverses is the magical city of Sigil. Sigil, the city of doors, holds portals to all planes and is a crossroads to many of these places - it's a hodgepodge of peoples and cultures. Ruling the city, was the Lady of Pain, but more practically, there are many factions that hold territory and influence within the city. Two of those factions (copied from the Wiki) were:

and

Great setting, Planescape, and adds a big dollop of weird to any D&D game you might want to run.

Planescape (and Planescape: Torment) are my favorite fantasy settings ever. They combine so many mythologies together so seamlessly while also adding a ton of amazing content of their own. Glad to see more people giving respect for it.

I still want to get a tattoo of the Lady of Pain's mask one of these days. =)

Dreamspitter8 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OBwXYfqq,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-11-19T04:49:21.239+0000)

At its simplest definition Hedonism is "a school of thought that argues that pleasure is the primary or most important intrinsic good. In very simple terms, a hedonist strives to maximize net pleasure (pleasure minus pain)."

Comparing the basic understanding of hedonism to Illaoi's quotes draws interesting parallels, if not outright reflection.

> If I hate something, I destroy it. If I want something, I take it. > We are born knowing what to do. We must only act. > It is terrible to be satisfied. The world needs us to chase dreams. > Life is the sweetness of fruit, and the joy of battle! > Chase what is desired. > Honour? Duty? Ha! What your heart demands is all that matters. > Good? Evil? Why should we care for such things? > No love is impossible, my god demands you follow your desires. > Live your life, chase what you desire, what else matters? > Even if I die, I die in motion.

Taking her words at face value, Illaoi seems to fall under the category of Folk Hedonism, "a person who seeks out pleasure for themselves without any particular regard for their own future well-being or for the well-being of others."

Nothing terribly important, but I thought it was interesting; hedonists aren't frequently represented or explored in popular media.

So what you mean is you think Nagakaborous is Slaanesh?

A Superb Villain9 votes

Tentacles? ✓ Connection to souls? ✓ Emphasis on pleasure? ✓✓

Nagakabouros confirmed for Lord of Excess.

DeathToHeretics4 votes

HERESY! http://media.moddb.com/images/members/1/231/230182/HeresyStamp.1.png

A Superb Villain1 votes

I can hardly blaspheme against that which is not divine.

RasCaelestis2 votes

http://41.media.tumblr.com/66f142e23ab34e3b823a4472d5b0b936/tumblr_ngqg842EA91suygywo1_500.png

Dreamspitter1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OBwXYfqq,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-11-19T13:29:45.972+0000)

Tentacles? ✓ Connection to souls? ✓ Emphasis on pleasure? ✓✓

Nagakabouros confirmed for Lord of Excess.

Now see, when I first learned about the character, I actually took them to be more inspired by Tzeentch.

She hates the shadow isles champions, and characters like Viktor because she does not see them as able to change and grow anymore. Also she talks a lot about "motion" and things being in "motion", as well as ambition and following hopes and dreams.

But why not both?

Kouga8 votes

On the surface I see some of the parallels. However one quote you mentioned I think speaks to the opposite point:

It is terrible to be satisfied. The world needs us to chase dreams

Hedonism generally carries a somewhat negative connotation; its basis being that an individual has the innate right to do anything that grants them the greatest possible pleasure (so long as it doesn't directly impose on that right of others). To me it has always been felt and described like an end goal.

A destination, to which all acts are only a means.

Illaoi, on the other hand, I think feels the opposite. The purpose is the journey, and the goal - the object of that desire - is rather a means to motivate and promote the journey itself. It is not an end state, but rather a constant state of trying. For Illaoi I believe there is never a time when you have "finished", never a time when you should feel that you are done. While Hedonism also pushes one towards finding new ways to increase pleasure/decrease pain, there may be a theoretical existence where you achieve a relative state of "I have it all".

Illaoi seems to believe that in pursuing our desires, the results and outcome of that effort makes the world a better place. Perhaps, even, that someone who has achieved great "pleasure" but has become stagnant in that pursuit would be just as bad as someone who disregards pleasure completely. Many of her other lines talk about water, and the need to move (or to "swim") constantly - that if you stop, you'll die.

"The waves will drag you down, unless you fight to shore." "To die is to drown - so I will swim well, till I can swim no more."

Or just the need to constantly be "in motion"

"Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens."

I think that's the basic difference; the need to achieve your goal, versus the need to keep moving towards it.

RiotWAAARGHbobo3 votes

+1

MasqureMan1 votes

{quoted}

On the surface I see some of the parallels. However one quote you mentioned I think speaks to the opposite point:

Hedonism generally carries a somewhat negative connotation; its basis being that an individual has the innate right to do anything that grants them the greatest possible pleasure (so long as it doesn't directly impose on that right of others). To me it has always been felt and described like an end goal.

A destination, to which all acts are only a means.

Illaoi, on the other hand, I think feels the opposite. The purpose is the journey, and the goal - the object of that desire - is rather a means to motivate and promote the journey itself. It is not an end state, but rather a constant state of trying. For Illaoi I believe there is never a time when you have "finished", never a time when you should feel that you are done. While Hedonism also pushes one towards finding new ways to increase pleasure/decrease pain, there may be a theoretical existence where you achieve a relative state of "I have it all".

Illaoi seems to believe that in pursuing our desires, the results and outcome of that effort makes the world a better place. Perhaps, even, that someone who has achieved great "pleasure" but has become stagnant in that pursuit would be just as bad as someone who disregards pleasure completely. Many of her other lines talk about water, and the need to move (or to "swim") constantly - that if you stop, you'll die. "To die is to drown - so I will swim well, till I can swim no more."

Or just the need to constantly be "in motion"

I think that's the basic difference; the need to achieve your goal, versus the need to keep moving towards it.

"Your people seek a worthy death. Mine, a worthy life."

SpecterVonBaren7 votes

While hedonism is possibly the philosophy she follows, I saw it more as her believing in the natural way of life, she shuns the undead, dislikes greater beings meddling in human affairs, and dislikes people trying to become gods. I'd say she's more someone that believes in a more animal way of life, follow your body's desires of hunger and sex, live your life to the fullest, follow your natural instincts rather than some societal dogma. As she herself says, "We are born knowing what to do. We must only act."

A Superb Villain5 votes

The difficulty I have with categorizing her belief as animalistic instinct is due to her, and other sentient beings, ability to reason. By acknowledging instinct we divide ourselves from the amnesty it provides; an animal acts as it does because it knows nothing else. As sapient organisms, we are burdened by the enlightenment of our knowledge, and by behaving as an animal we are actively disregarding qualities which uplift us, essentially spitting in the face of intelligence.

In short, we know better, thus instinct is no excuse.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I'm not sure why you use the word 'excuse'. Your topic is about how you think she follows hedonism and I'm saying I think its more of following the natural way of life rather than just pursue what is pleasurable. I fail to see where the requirement for an 'excuse' comes from. If she follows a philosophy legends like that then she does, regardless of whether anyone else agrees with it. Further, even if we get into your views on such a belief system, Illaoi is clearly not just saying, "be like an animal" but more, be a human and live instead of forcing yourself to follow complicated and at times horribly twisted doctrines of governments.

A Superb Villain2 votes

Excuse was an inadequate word to explain my meaning. I understand your explanation, but I do not agree that she is following an animal way of life or a manner of being human that is living, because her words focus on gratification. She is not simply living but actively pursuing her desires while encouraging others to do the same. I am having difficulty seeing it as a manner of living through instinct and avoidance of strict moral codes when doing so requires a conscious decision on her part, and in a sense her commandments of living without doctrines or laws is in itself a doctrine. Hedonism is not exactly what she practices, but it is the closest real world equivalent that approaches the defining qualities of her belief.

Take Karthus, for example, he wanted to become the lich we know as today, yet his actions would conflict with her understanding of "motion" or the natural way of life. He follows one aspect (achieving the object of desire) while breaking another (undeath), which conflicts with the suggestion to live without submitting to laws since if that applied there would be no law to break. Hence, why I understand her belief to be hedonistic rather than observing the natural way of life; take what you want and damn the consequences.

Honestly, I just feel like this whole discussion is a bit silly. Why am I bothering to categorize or interpret a fictional philosophy?

If no resolution is forthcoming, can we agree to disagree?

= )

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

There is nothing to agree to disagree about here friend :) I am merely discussing nerd philosophy with you, I certainly see your explanation better now.

RiotWAAARGHbobo7 votes

Love the conversation on this thread.

So let me give it some fuel. (Don't want to give to much away and end it-- that's boring)

Let's say you love beer and partying, more than anything. You win the lotto. You have enough money now, you'll never have to work again. You can devote your time to drinking beer at your favorite tavern from dawn to dusk.

What would Illaoi want you do with the money?

SOrude NAndstorm1 votes

{quoted}

Love the conversation on this thread.

So let me give it some fuel. (Don't want to give to much away and end it-- that's boring)

Let's say you love beer and partying, more than anything. You win the lotto. You have enough money now, you'll never have to work again. You can devote your time to drinking beer at your favorite tavern from dawn to dusk.

What would Illaoi want you do with the money?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/help-support/EQeXEYn7-eune-problems-are-probably-ignored-by-european-rioters

If you can answer to my post, i would be grateful

RiotWAAARGHbobo6 votes

Sorry that team (the USA one) isn't even in the same building as champion team (what I work in) I don't even know where they sit.

But... Riot does read peoples posts (esp player support)- Often they don't have time to answer. But someone on that team will probably look into it-- if they haven't already.

Szunray2 votes

Well definitely not drink at the same tavern from dawn till dusk. Every one of her quotes seems to be about motion, and never being contented. I honestly think she would be dissapointed if that money lasted me more than two weeks.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

I'm not donating my money to her church.

I don't care how real her god is it's my money.

Ethereal3111 votes

It's also her potential 'protection' tithe. Protection from Nagakabouros from the Priestess of Nagakabouros, if you get what I'm suggesting.

Lorinne7 votes

Illaoi wouldn't care what you did with the money as long as you did something with it and as long as you didn't let your new riches turn you into some lethargic, motionless, unambitious lump. Use the money for greatness and pleasure but don't treasure it as if it's the only source for these things.

Garlyle Wilds3 votes

This sounds most accurate to me. I think it's less that she and her god are necessarily Hedonistic, so much as they are about change, desire, and motion - ensuring that humanity doesn't stagnate.

Ryzing2Diamond1 votes

She'd want you to do whatever you want with the money, so long as you did something with it and didn't sit stagnate doing nothing.

MythicTwister1 votes

{quoted}

Love the conversation on this thread.

So let me give it some fuel. (Don't want to give to much away and end it-- that's boring)

Let's say you love beer and partying, more than anything. You win the lotto. You have enough money now, you'll never have to work again. You can devote your time to drinking beer at your favorite tavern from dawn to dusk.

What would Illaoi want you do with the money?

Throw a huge celebration and invite everyone to it, get in an epic brawl, nurse broken bones and a hangover the next day knowing you really LIVED, and find out later that you're going to be a father/mother because of it. That sounds like the sort of insanity she's in to.

Kouga1 votes

{quoted} What would Illaoi want you do with the money?

I think she would say something along the lines of: Go and build a better tavern - bigger, brighter, all the more glorious in which to drink and party. When you are done, then craft better beer - the strongest, best tasting beer, all the better to drink in such a fine tavern. And when you're done.. make it better.

Ahelless2 votes

Putting that into one word: she's a slut, right? The only Braum-tier girl in this game is a slut? http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/319/almostpolitically.gif

Szunray5 votes

She'd probably encourage you to fight her about it.

Sidewayzz2 votes

I would think her attitude of, "I'm gonna do what I want, you do what you want" is ethical relativism.

Stars Shaper2 votes

I just felt this was appropriate:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/407954c2e1fe04cd96d668db79b12678/tumblr_mw0xq2zHdg1r8q9x8o1_500.gif

Ralanr1 votes

She could also be an ethical hedonist. But yes, she is a hedonist.

A Superb Villain3 votes

I would not exactly claim her beliefs fall under the category of ethical hedonism, as she actively promotes the pursuit of individual pleasure over a laws established for the benefit of society; Illaoi takes what she wants and crushes whatever she detests, commanding others to do the same.

Ralanr3 votes

From my understanding, ethical hedonism is, "Do what you want, let other people do what they want, fine as long as they don't hurt each other."

so yes you'd be right.

DragonShea1 votes

Well I think she is, But she is not bad. She is really saying that people should do whatever they want and let nothing hold them back. I think she loves to fight, she loves to fuck, she loves to help and she loves to live. The last is one of the prime reasons she hates the undead. And see nothing wrong with being above Good and Evil because those people can either be truly about it or worse than both without realising or caring about it.

A Superb Villain6 votes

Being "above good and evil" is often a justification for dismissing the responsibility attached to actions which fall into either category.

Melledoneus6 votes

Not to mention that it's a lazy excuse for committing atrocities when you're supposed to be a figure of holiness (priestess).

A Superb Villain1 votes

Indeed, it is far more noble to embrace one's depravity than deny it.

I would know.

Melledoneus2 votes

So are you saying that it's noble to embrace your evil, and then deny it?

Or are you saying that it is better to embrace one's wickedness rather than denying its existence?

(Basically, I'm saying *than)

A Superb Villain1 votes

The latter.

I made a terrible mistake; funny how one letter can cause so much change.

Melledoneus2 votes

The English language is a fickle one.

A Superb Villain1 votes

And it is only one of two I know; o, cruel grammar, it has forsaken me!

DragonShea1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=OBwXYfqq,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-11-19T13:32:26.175+0000)

Being "above good and evil" is often a justification for dismissing the responsibility attached to actions which fall into either category.

Yeeeah that is the common context of it. As if being such was worse that being good or evil. it's often a means by both to force such people into an allianment when they are something that just can't be labeled as neutral. unfortunately You only half of what I said: _ I see nothing wrong with being above Good and Evil because those people can either be truly better or worse than both without realising or caring about it.._

Edit: corrected Typo from my old post.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

She really isn't.people already said what I was going to say.

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