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The current state of Elise & Vilemaw

The Iceborn·11/24/2019, 5:36:46 PM·14 votes·11,596 views

####Intro Elise has always been my second favorite champion and I love her lore however, my issue is that she is not really standing on her own. Everyone who has relations with the Black Rose, Elise and Vlad and other big figures, have always appeared quite dependant on the circle and that the Black Rose is their main focus when that does not seem to be true at all. We have also gotten the idea that LeBlanc is the ultimate "ruler" of the Black Rose when the truth is that she is constantly fighting for power... Elise has never given me the feeling that she is her own boss, she and others always seemed to stand below LeBlanc and I feel like the narrative needs to focus on making Vladimir, Cassio and Elise more in charge of themselves rather than having it look like LeBlanc is breathing down their neck. With that being said we will discuss Elise's lore along with her portrayal in Legends of Runeterra and Vilemaw. This thread is made to explore her character and to give ideas how Riot can help Elise stand on her own as she currently does not seem to have any ambitions or goals and generally I do not have an issue with that but someone as powerful as Elise should have an agenda, so besides her traveling to the Shadow Isles every few hundred years to restore her youth, there really does not seem to be a big plan she is striving to execute... https://i.imgur.com/0eM3mb7.jpg[] ####Discussions Elise's lore tells us that she is the widow of house Zavaan and she is also in charge of her own house Kythera, she rules both very powerful houses in Noxus. Her story started out with her beauty manipulating those around her for power, including her husband who then poisoned her, making her look disfigured. She is then approached by LeBlanc in promise of restoring her looks in exchange for an artifact in the lair of the Spider God. Elise travels to the Shadow Isles and in a fortunate twist of events both the dagger she is supposed to retrieve and Vilemaw's poison transform her into an arachnoid beauty. Elise returns to Noxus and gives LeBlanc the artifact from the Shadow Isles. Every few hundred years she returns for Vilemaw to restore her beauty. LeBlanc gives Elise victims for her to offer to Vilemaw and Elise does that, in return Vilemaw returns youth to Elise. Upon coming back to Noxus, Elise brings back artifacts to LeBlanc as a thank you for the victims she can offer Vilemaw. A symbiotic relatonship between the three is born. https://i.imgur.com/oO22vdK.png[] So here is the first evidence of how Elise has been portrayed as too dependant on the Black Rose and Leblanc. LeBlanc is giving Elise low- level members of the BR for Elise to offer to Vilemaw. The Spider Queen does not really need LB to give her people she can offer because she is very able to do that herself. Her beauty is her weapon and she needs no help in gathering volunteers as offerings to the Spider God. In this relationship I see LeBlanc as being forced into something where she does not need to be and Elise clearly not profiting from it. Leblanc has been put in there for the sake of showing that Elise, as well as other members of the Black Rose, are dependant on her (which they are not and this is probably an unwanted effect that Riot caused). I wish for her stand on her own and instead of her endeavors taking second place, the Black Rose should take second place. https://i.imgur.com/oO22vdK.png[] An aspect of Elise I would like explored is her relationship with her spiderlings. Just like we explored Zyra's relationship with her "children", the zychids, and their importance to her operations, I would love for us to see how Elise benefits from her spiders and in what way does she use them to gather levearage over others and knowledge over her enemies (if she does). This begs a question, does she have immediate control over all spiderlings or only those who are in her presence? Can she also appear in other places of the world like Zyra can through her zychids? I imagine she can in one way or the other. Personally I believe that her relationship with her spiderlings is really like a parent-child relationship and that has not been shown enough in conjunction with her utilizing them for leverage over her foes. https://i.imgur.com/oO22vdK.png[] In some ways yes, Elise has been portrayed to care about her spiderlings, especially in the LoR interactions and art. She seems to quite literally be their mother. From some cards we can see that she does lay eggs herself. Here we can see that there is spider eggs laying around, granted it may not be hers but she is definitely able to influence spiders to lay eggs. https://i.imgur.com/fCjYjjQ.jpg[] Here however we can definitely assume that she is able to lay eggs, she actually seems to lay eggs in human corpses among others! The prey is spun in a cocoon by her and her spiderlings, the insides are probably eaten and left hollow for the eggs to remain in a warm and protected environment. The description and order of the cards can make it more clear: Vile Feast - Drain 1 to summon a spiderling https://i.imgur.com/xH3Hv3g.png[] And with that we have a pretty creepy description for what happens to the victims after the feast or even while the victims are alive: Crawling Sensation - That creeping feeling on your skin isn't nearly as unsettling as the one underneath it. https://i.imgur.com/r5FU9qH.png[] https://i.imgur.com/oO22vdK.png[] Exploring her further relationships we have to touch on Vilemaw and his dead situation (I see you narrative 0.0). Vilemaw is somewhat lore- dead. At this time he is still Elise's Spider God and we should not expect that to change, because it shouldn't. However, he himself has not yet been explored enough in my opinion because if he truly is a demi- god or a spirit- god or whatever powerful being that he is supposed to be, he should be given more acknowledgment. I personally think that Vilemaw is something like a spirit- god, much like Anivia or Volibear. He probably resided on the Blessed Isles but when the Ruination happened, we got his evil and twisted form. Maybe he is the result of what happens when the Ruination hits a spirit- god. It is not that far fetched. If we assume that he is some kind of a spirit entity that can still manifest in a material form, again much like the demi- gods, then he would be awarded the power of materializing across Runeterra just like other powerful entities of the Shadow Isles! And here we may have an example of that happening: https://i.imgur.com/lvhfNHu.jpg[] The scenary looks like Demacia or even one of the states/settlements between Demacia or Noxus and there is a quote that goes along with the art!

"Who is your god? What can your god do? Will he let you wither and die defending him? Or will he give you life and vitality like no mortal has ever known? Why serve a god who won't serve you?" - Elise

Does this tell us that Vilemaw is able to manifest in other regions? Or is that random art showing us Vilemaw on the Blessed Isles? I for once think that Elise may be able to summon him through a ritual or so.. It would make sense for it to be Demacia, maybe far fetched, let me know! We have evidence of Demacia exploring the Shadow Isles and obviously fighting a lot of spirits there, including spider entitites. My theory is that the image above is either Elise using Vilemaw by summoning him in some way or that Vilemaw came back to attack the rural area of Demacia because they invaded his domain and potentially killed his subjects like the Arachnoid Horror. https://i.imgur.com/GaDFUJ9.jpg[] Furthermore I found an artpiece that was cancelled and never became official but nonetheless it does spark interest as it could explain how the Spider God feeds off of souls on the Shadow Isles. The possibility of these spider ghosts absorbing minor spirits and then that sustaining Vilemaw is there. https://i.imgur.com/4MyvsMH.jpg[] Nightmare exploration where the spiders are sucking life-force out of weak spirits and treasure hunters. Kind of like dementors. https://i.imgur.com/oO22vdK.png[] Lastly some random topics I thought about while making this thread! Would you say that Vladimir knows of Elise? I assume yes but this is another wish of mine, exploring not only Elise's relationship with her Spiderlings but also the relationship of the Black Rose members, especially Vladimir and her! Along with that I am curious to know if Elise is securing her survival and independence... If she is transporting artifacts from the Shadow Isles to Noxus, I think it is fair to assume that she also keeps some for herself. No doubt there is some objects that can aid in her power struggle against other Black Rose members. Thinking more into the future, if Morde does return, will she stand with LeBlanc? It would probably be the best for her to leave, she could make the kumungu jungle her new domain and kill the folk along the serpentine delta or even folk who live in the jungle and offer them to Vilemaw. ####Overall thoughts Overall I wish for the Black Rose members to be portrayed more independantly and I wish for Elise to have a true purpose, she is alive for hundreds of years but her lore does not reveal anything particular she strives to achieve, beside her hunger for youth and offering noxians to the Spider God.. Let me know about your thoughts!

23 Comments

GreenLore11/24/2019, 6:43:40 PM4 votes

I don't really feel like most Black Rose members are too dependent on the black rose. Yes Lb stands above them in the hierarchy, but thats pretty natural for any organization.

With that being said, I do feel like Elise is kinda redundant among the other black rose members. I mean she is a seductive human/animal-hybrid who is obsessed with beauty, but thats basicallyCassiopeia already. Her sacrificing others in order to survive is likely done by Vladimir too(not sure if it was ever explained how he remains alive, but I'm pretty sure he does it by draining blood from others).

LBmyBB11/24/2019, 6:46:20 PM3 votes

Perhaps leblanc has them right where she wants them

CaptainAntiHeroz11/25/2019, 6:02:45 AM2 votes

I feel like "dependent" isn't really the right wording....

In fact they all seem to be doing the exact opposite of being dependent on the Black Rose

Vladimir seducing prey to feed off of Elise seducing prey to sacrifice to vilemaw in exchange for immortality Cassiopeia off in Shurima doing douchy snake lady things

It almost feels like ....

Okay let me explain it in super hero team terminology so you can follow my thinking better

Imagine the Justice League = Black rose in this metaphor And its play up to be this super big deal Okay now we're only going to give you Batman, Superman and Wonder woman SOLO stories with Say idk the Flash getting a solo story and referencing the league in one story

It feels almost like an afterthought and never like WE'RE WRITING A BLACK ROSE STORY OH BOY I mean the only person who feels involved with the black rose is Leblanc even though I know the others are in it they don't FEEL like a part of it unless I missed a bunch of recent lore on them referencing the Black rose....

Tormentula11/25/2019, 8:31:00 PM2 votes

imo Elise's current lore is fine, her origin stems from leblanc, and that's fine just like how everybody's origin technically stems from Aurelion Sol assumingly, but no one has to be "even" with him.

Where Elise stands out from the other members is her massive importance to the black rose as a bridge to the shadow isles, she's the only known link from outside the isles, that can explore the isles, as we know majority of the shadow isles members don't traverse past the mist. That alone is what makes Elise less redundant and stand out significantly more if we're to compare her character's importance to the others. Its especially important that the black rose is within noxus, where Elise could provide exploration for the Noxian empire to expand where other countries can't contest. Idk where swain is with the black rose atm but elise would be pretty important to him with this as well. These are things not put in text you have to consider as well regarding her. Alternatively if vilemaw does have some interest in expanding the mist outside of the isles to in-land, which we wouldn't know cause he definitely needs a lore update, elise could provide that as well.

I also will say her concept of "sacrificing for eternal beauty" is a lot less explored by other characters in league; there are 'hocus pocus witch' type characters out there, but when you look at league there ain't too many and elise just happens to be the one, and she does it with a better less binary reasoning (why she took this path, what she does to restore her youth, who does it for her, and how much she goes through to pull it off rather than just eating and stealing a soul.)

Zero Drive11/26/2019, 11:22:53 AM2 votes

I haven't read anything yet. Your formatting was just so goddamn beautiful I felt compelled to comment first and let you know this is the most beautifully done post I've ever read on these forums.

Edit: Whew what a read. You really put a lot of thought into this and I agree, the Black Rose in general could stand to fleshed out more. Elise and Cassiopeia are portrayed too weakly in comparison to Vladimir and Leblanc.

Anns12/2/2019, 12:55:16 AM2 votes

Logged in just to tell you how stunning everything is. Elise is my most played champion and this thread was so interesting for me. Well done! Hope to see more of those in future <3

P0IS0N IVY11/25/2019, 1:47:17 AM2 votes

I'm actually really happy to see a thread like this. I RP'd Elise for a really long time and have a ton of HCs for her and everything involving the Black Rose and Noxus and stuff.

First, let's look at things from LB's point of view. While we are not exactly entirely sure what her agenda is, we do know she runs a secret organization that pulls the strings of Noxus in the background. That's said, it is safe to assume that LB is extremely proficient at strategizing and planning and being two steps ahead of her opponents. Also, from the pale woman lore, we know that LB is not human/immortal/long-lasting to some degree. She passes we'll call it her "soul" from one vessel to the next in order to survive. In order for all of her plans to be successful, LB would need a loyal, powerful inner ring that she can share secrets with, and preferably, not have to recycle that ring every generation. If you recall petal and thorn from a lore story a while back, that is what I believe Elise and Vlad to be. LB starts the relationship off by giving Elise something she wants. This means that she already has a good amount of knowledge regarding who Elise is and what happened to her. Remember that Elise became extremely reclusive for a long time after she was disfigured, so only someone with good connections and an agenda would approach her. Elise has now bound herself to the Black Rose, and as you stated, she has a symbiotic relationship with the Black Rose.

So back to your question, why would Elise choose to not be independent? LB's sacrifices are merely a convenience for her, so they clearly don't hold too much weight. But LB has some other things. First, she has secrets, not only of Elise, but of other things too. Knowledge is power. And Elise is definitely attracted to power. I think LB would have seen potential in Elise, and taught her magic - ancient, arcane, you name it. The Black Rose likely also had some other resources available too that are only accessible to members. Of course, LB's teachings wouldn't come for free and she would need Elise to carry out some other Black Rose related duties as well. This would be LB covering all her bases and ensuring loyalty as much as possible because you wouldn't want something as powerful as the woman you've created to turn against you. And kind of my own personal thing, but I think the Black Rose uses some form of blood magic that prevents Elise from harming LB and potentially vice versa. So LB has a lot of things over Elise, but I think she's smart enough to know that the best form of loyalty is trust, which tends to be a two-way street. She'd begin to entrust things that no one has ever known to the Spider Queen - the vulnerability of her vessel for instance. And Elise helps with that transition (along with Vlad). By this point, the two know so many secrets about each other, that it'd be the dumbest thing to do to break all ties and be independent. Betrayal is just going to be an enormous headache and get someone killed. And that's what LB wants - a circle of powerful people she can trust who hold sway over her just as she does them. In a way, she's tied their hands through a twisted form of blackmail, but Elise, Vlad, and Cass just stay because it's so beneficial.

I believe that Elise's ultimate agenda is to become immortal without Vilemaw's help. Essentially she wants Vilemaw's power. To do that, she will most likely need the Black Rose. It's a means to an end, but there's no reason to be burning bridges even afterward.

Cass ended up bonded to the Black Rose because of her snake curse. She needs their resources now that she's not human. But that's what LB wanted in the first place.

I actually don't hold too much of an interest in Vlad so I haven't put a lot of thought into his character. He likely has his own deal with LB.

So I don't think Riot needs to separate these four characters. I want a story that ties them all together. In fact, it'd be cool to see a longer story featuring them working together.

In response to some other things:

I don't think LB is breathing down their necks. If she were to abuse the relationships she had, then it would make them betray her. Instead, her inner circle acknowledges that they do have responsibilities, and it's more akin to an agreement that they have realized over time. There's always an "or else" tacked onto LB's requests, but she knows that it goes both ways. That's how she garners respect and maintains her balance of power. Over time, this has transitioned into characters doing their own independent thing, but they come together for Black Rose purposes. The one person that got away with this shit is Swain when he betrayed the Black Rose, but that's a whole different story. And LB likely has a trump card somewhere that no one has ever heard of, but who knows?

Just a little more about the Black Rose - they are definitely the epitome of a shit ton of evil things involving murder, betrayal, and deceit, but LB is extremely careful about keeping members of the inner circle from directing those things at each other, which is why she also needs to choose them very carefully. There are some weird ass love triangles going around too I'm sure.

I headcanon Elise as having a telepathic connection to her spiderlings and can sense what they sense. Her spiderlings aren't animals but beings of dark magic. The eggs she lays are just her funneling dark magic into a pocket, and it lays dormant until it needs to hatch. This means she doesn't absolutely have to lay eggs; it's just a way to store magic. That also means she can summon spiderlings at will.

As for Vilemaw, he is kinda lore dead, but I have my own HCs for how he became what he did and how he could appear in other places in Runeterra. Another time though. I already typed waaaaay too much.

Edit: I also just want to point out that Elise becoming the Spider Queen was entirely unintended given LB's plans so yeah just some food for thought. What do you do when a pawn of yours comes back as a really powerful being? =u=

Edit 2: Wouldn't it be interesting if Elise's husband had actually gotten the poison from the Black Rose? >8)

VampiricNarwhal11/25/2019, 4:24:53 AM1 votes

I kind of agree with Cassiopeia and Elise, but Vladimir is shown to be as influential in the lore. He’s portrayed as an ancient prince of a kingdom long gone practicing the magic of the Darkin that he killed, and someone who likes to live in the shadows only to emerge and change history. Reread his latest story (the one with the painter iirc) to see what I mean