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About the whole "Foundations" thing. (@Narrative)

ModCaptainMårvelous·3/2/2016, 5:27:43 PM·27 votes·6,314 views

I just got done reading the Targon interview with the foundations team. It was cool, yeah. However, this part at the end from Ant kinda struck me.

Reynolds: That’s why we call it Foundations. It really is just the foundation that players and Riot teams can build upon. It’s like a sign that says, ‘Demacia is kind of in this direction, now go play and create cool stuff.’

I have to ask: Is that what is really going on here?

I want to point to two major parts of this argument: The anti-fan fiction rule and the feedback the lore team gets when it comes to these stories. Because when you compare these notes to what Ant said, there is a clear and distinct difference between what you guys are wishing to create and what you guys are making.

#The Anti-Fan Fiction Half

A long time ago it was told that players cannot make fan fiction stories canon or suggest major plot points. This kinda stung. Hell, if you know me, I've actively been trying to learn and get on the lore team for a few years now (I'm making zero progress but that's the price you pay for not having professional experience). Riot Narrative, and the team, made it clear that while players may ask to learn more about these characters both champion and non-champion, none of our feedback would actually contribute directly to a story, which brings me to my first flaw:

Are you setting up foundations for what we can explore or TELLING us what we will explore?

Piltover/Zaun was referenced a lot and I'd like to think of that place as my home turf when it comes to fan fiction. I've spent more time writing stories, designing fan concepts/champions and overall trying to flesh out those two places on my own. I should be rather happy about the idea that Riot wants to expand and explode out those regions. Rather, I'm worried. I'm worried that any cool idea I spent years building up on will be completely obsolete. I'm worried that even if I did contribute feedback about these champions, it would largely be ignored.

It makes me feel like the stories I, and others, create for Runeterra are afterthoughts. That I'm not allowed to explore and play with this world as I and any other see fit. Rather, I'm being told that THIS is what the story is and you have to submit to the narrative team's design. You're allowed to play in the sandbox, you just have to use THIS shovel and THIS pail. Perhaps I'm extremely biased when it comes to this but it feels as if the player comes second and the writer comes first. I also understand this is a legal thing with the whole "What if they stole MY story" or "Omg Rito steal my idea gib RP forever" but I kinda think that's still a weak argument. One last thing: I'm not a great writer. I'm not going to pretend I can stand up with guys like Graham who held the 40k universe in the palm of his hand like a writing deity. It just leaves a sour taste that our stories and our ideas don't just play second fiddle, they play off-stage in the green room.

#The Anti-Feedback Half

I'll come out and say it: There seems to be no feedback when it comes to lore changes. We can say they're awesome or that they're not-so-awesome, yes. We can ask what regions we'd like to explore. But when it comes to actual champion and story feedback we can't really make any significant changes. Period.

Take the Targon examples. A lot of people are upset that these characters so fundamentally changed. Pantheon got completely mind-wiped, making him somewhat one-dimensional even if his backstory is thicker. Diana and Leona have completely switched roles, with Diana being the rough-but-peaceful celestial while Leona became the zealot of her religion, even if there's more power for the two of them to actually work together. People addressed these concerns ( Ryugi did an amazing post on the discussion) but they've largely been ignored. We don't have a two-way-street.

In some aspects I understand this as well. You can't pull in a VA to completely rewrite the VO. You can't dig up Pantheon's old VA and ask if he'd like to rerecord everything when you've got 10 other projects requiring 12 different VOs (Hey maybe some of them are dual champs, y'know?). But it's not the case when it comes to a story. Yes, it isn't feasible to ask for the writers to completely scrap a story and it is hardly fair to ask them to completely and utterly remove something. That doesn't mean we can't ask for minor changes. That doesn't mean we can't provide feedback to these characters.

#Conclusion

For Rioters reading this, I apologize if I came off as harsh, overbearing or maybe just know-it-all-y. I've played League for five years and really dug into the story for four of those years. My criticism doesn't come from a place of rage, it comes from a place of passion. I don't want to shove and push and demand an answer, I'd just like to establish an open dialogue and try to get some feedback and a two-way-street going.

It's clear from your Narrative post that you want this place to be fun for both you and us. It's clear that you want this world to be something we can all play around in and something where both fan fiction and fan fact (That's my word for writers on the payroll. Do you like it?) can come together and work as a cohesive unit. You may not be able to directly pull stories and quotes 1:1 from us but that doesn't mean we can't work with you if you'll let us. I just want Runeterra to be a place where we can all share stories.

Thanks for reading this, if you made it to the bottom. No TL;DR. Go read. It's story and art, you should be accustomed to reading. (PS: If anyone else is gonna be at GDC, be sure to meet me there. I love talking about this stuff even if I'm just a super fan)

45 Comments

RiotAnt in Oz3/5/2016, 12:49:00 AM7 votes

Hi there CaptainMårvelous, and everyone else who has chimed in here.

As always - I love the passion from everyone, and that everyone here is having an intelligent, well-reasoned, respectful discussion. Huzzah!

This is not Riot with a capital "R" speaking, this is just me as a gamer and fan of LoL (which I played for around 3 years before I'd ever considered the idea of working here), someone who's been a professional writer for around 15 years, and someone who has worked in other IPs that also gets lots of fanfiction/fan-art etc created around it.

A couple of thoughts:

  • No one here, let alone the writers, would want people to stop writing fanfiction. Fanfiction is awesome, and there are plenty of people who make the jump from writing fanfiction to getting employed professionally to write. It's an invaluable place to learn and hone your craft, get feedback from people who know and love the world and characters your are writing about, and just generally interact with an IP that you love. Do it, and keep doing it.

  • Player sentiment towards characters and world-building (which can be expressed in a myriad of ways, from fanfic, to cosplay, to fanart, to conversations, headcanon, board posts, memes, or whatever) IS a strong voice in the direction of the Lore. Truly. This is true in many big IPs, though stronger in LoL than any other IP I've worked in. I know it can be hard to see that sometimes, especially if the canon veers away from what an individual sees as things that are core to a character/place. This is typically more of an issue when that character/place is less defined, requiring players to fill in the blanks - in these cases, different headcanon starts to form among different people (which can vary hugely - especially across different cultures and languages). Rarely does everyone agree perfectly - opinions of what's cool varies, and different headcanon ideas tend to gain traction in different eco-sytems. We do listen, though, and players' opinions do massively influence us - though this more often on the macro level than the micro level. By that, I mean if all players tend to love "X" about a character, we'd be wise to understand that and find room for "X" to live on unless there's a good reason not to. We are more likely to look at big trends/global sentiment among players than individual ideas. This can influence us in little ways - little nods to fan-favorite things (like helmet bro popping up from time to time, urf sneaking into splash art, etc), or in bigger ways - such as helping to establish the personality of less established champs.

As a personal example, some of the feedback regarding the new Pantheon bio and color text has really got me thinking of story ideas exploring how a little hint of Atreus may still be in there, which hasn't happened with previous incarnations of the Aspect. Perhaps something is different this time around, and the personality of the host starts to re-emerge...

  • A bio is not a complete story/character arc. It's most definitely not the start and end of a character, or the be-all-and-end-all. For example, just because the bio doesn't come out and say "Pantheon and Leona are friends" - and might even show them being antagonists in the past - doesn't mean they can't become friends or allies in future stories, etc. We haven't done heaps of ongoing storytelling in the past, but we definitely want to do a heck of a lot more going forward - the Bilgewater Burning Tides story, and the Harrowing "Shadow and Fortune" story was a start towards that. We do want to develop our character's arcs and their stories - they are not static.

  • I get the frustration when something changes in "Lore" that invalidates something someone's written in fanfiction. It's a bummer. (It also happens professionally as things develop, btw.) Hopefully these changes are for the better, but this stuff aint an exact science, and it's all pretty subjective. It's also something that is very difficult to avoid or mitigate unless we just stop and leave the lore exactly as it is - but that way leads to stagnation and wouldn't be satisfying to anyone. LoL has many, many millions of players, and a heck of a lot of fanfic being generated every day in 40+ languages - it would be impossible for us to have any kind of development with our characters and our lore without invalidating some fan-fic here and there. Note also that this is not restricted to just fanfic - it's a similar thing to making a cosplay outfit or artwork, then that champ getting a re-work and new splash. The more our world and characters get established, fleshed out and developed, the less this becomes an issue - and the more that fanfiction and what you call 'fan fact' (like the term, btw) can work together without clashing.

  • Should we be aware of the ramifications of any changes we make, and have our finger on the pulse of player sentiment? Hell yeah. This is super-important. It's also important not to try to appease everyone with every change - that way leads to blandness and a solution that may not _offend _anyone, but also doesn't really _satisfy _anyone. We should never blindly make a change that no one wants of course (this is where understanding players and their often contradictory opinions matter), but also we shouldn't be afraid to make a change that some people might not like (but others do), as again, if we try to please everyone, or design things (especially characters) by committee then we end up with really boring and unsatisfying characters/stories/worlds.

Anyway, apologies that this has turned into a wall of text! I hope this sheds some light on things, and that it makes some sense.

Cheers! Ant

Dataless3/2/2016, 10:00:59 PM7 votes

I seriously doubt League will have any semblance of workable lore for another several years, and that's being optimistic...

RiotDinopawz3/5/2016, 1:13:50 AM7 votes

Hey folks,

Thought I'd chime in with my own two cents...

First up, it's great to see everyone involved here getting discussions going around the new lore for our Targon champs! Everyone has their own view as to what these new tales mean for how it’s impacted the champs’ previous lore and how those characters are now perceived. As Ant in Oz says, there can sometimes be a sense that a champ’s entire story is conveyed within their bio, that it’s the essence of their beginning, middle and end. A sense that this is their story and here it ends, now go play them…

But I think it’s fair to say that we see a champ’s bio as the starting point of their story life. It’s the information that tells us who they were and what happened to mould them into the champion they are now. A good bio gives us enough information and story to know who that champ is and what’s driving them onwards - their motivation. it makes us want to know more about them, allows us to identify and/or empathise with them and makes us care about what happens to them (or what we want to happen to them). A good bio allows everyone to take the champ’s story onwards in their games, fan-fic, art, cosplay or forum discussions. It allows them to talk to others about how a champ’s story might develop and what great or nefarious destiny might lie in their future.

Take the Bilgewater champions, for example. We took their bios and pulled them forward into stories like The Reckoning and Shadow & Fortune, and even then, their stories have threads yet to pull. We wanted to show that stories develop, that actions have consequences and that the bios are just starting places for us to develop the champs and the world of Runeterra. So look at the bios and story text here as a place where the endless possibilities opened up by Mount Targon and its associated champs can be explored. What lies in store for Diana and Leona? What might happen if Pantheon comes face to face with Leona? Why are the Aspects coming to Runeterra right now? These and a hundred other questions are ripe for the asking, and the potential for new and exciting stories are wide open for everyone’s imagination to run with.

Race you to the summit…

Graham

Star Guardían3/3/2016, 1:08:00 AM5 votes

If you have no prior experience with ANY form of prior published professional work, I can assure you that will not get into Riot. At least not in the near future. Jaredan said, at the moment, they're focussing on acquiring seasoned writers. My advice would be to try and get your foot in the door through other avenues. This probably applies to all disciplines; Riot only hires the cream of the crop.

As for fan fiction being treated like an afterthought, well, it kind of is. And I think it should be. What's most important is Riot telling the stories they want to tell. I think of FF like mods. They're great and add a lot of appreciation to the main game but the main game is more important.

GreenLore3/3/2016, 12:14:24 AM4 votes

Overall I think you are seeing the whole "we can't adapt fan-fictions" a bit too tight.

I am pretty sure that the general view on the champions does play a role.(just remember how Jayces first lore was changed due to community feedback) Heck the changes to Leonas and Dianas characters were likely done in response to the opinions of the players,because over the years I've seen lots of people who though Leona being too good in the lore(as it doesn't fit the gameplay and doesn't make much sense in such a place) and Diana coming off as irrational evil(with lots of diana fans being in complete denial of that aspect anyway)

About Riots lack of feedback First of all there is the problem that the fanbase rarely has only one opinion.With millions of fans you've also got million of opinions. The targon lore was rather divisive,but that means that even if some don't like the new direction,others do and regardless if they change it again or not,one group will be unhappy anyway.

And if Riot has planned the general outline of the story ahead,then certain aspects can't be rewritten(or may not even need to be rewritten,for example a lot of people are unhappy that atreus is dead,but in the end its always possible that riot plans for him to return anyway),without having to change their plans for the future.

Last but not least,there is the simple problem that if they change released lore based on fan reactions,it will cost them some resources and given the fact that the retcon still hasn't been finished after almost 2 years I'd say the faster they can move on to the next project,the better. They should read the reactions of the fans and think about how they can avoid the things that were disliked in the future,or how a future story of a champ could make that better,because currently they should focus on updating the lores of the champs,to finally get the retcon done,but if they always need to go back,then they'll never be able to move forward.

Norscout3/2/2016, 8:10:44 PM3 votes

You have alot of great insight and many good ideas. Riot would be very lucky to be able to hire you

NuclearSmoothie3/2/2016, 11:33:32 PM3 votes

Do you happen to have a blog or site where I could follow you? I do have a lot to say on this but I'm a bit hesitant on posting my opinion about this on the boards. People are very passionate about their favorite characters and I feel I might come off as rude or harsh. (I also need some extra time to construct what I want to say better so I might get back to you on this).

That being said I do feel for those that had their head cannon/ideas ruined by the new lore. I'm def gonna miss old Leona and Diana...but I don't hate the new lore and I feel that it actually does give me a chance to work with something new/different. It won't be the same but I can certainly conceptualize new ideas and scenarios that I think will be fun to write or draw.

Bultz3/2/2016, 9:17:01 PM2 votes

Many words. Hurt brain.

Artum Tsumia3/6/2016, 5:30:49 AM1 votes

While I will agree that some of the direction of this Targon event is iffy, I'm of the mindset that the "minor" changes to the details of the champions does a lot to unite their stories which is something that I'm always glad to see come into the lore.

As far as changes to the personalities though, it's difficult to make a judgement there at this time. Much if not all of the core personalities are still there, though things become muddled due to the overall dark tone and foreshadowing of what it to come. Without me going back and reviewing Diana and Leona's lore, there was easily enough of the original in place for me to accept them as the same characters and more or less just expanded lore. Diana is still an outcast, hated and prone to bursts of violence, but it was never in my mind that she did not desire some sort of peace and acceptance. It was the vehement rejection of her truth that kept her there and I most certainly never thought that despite how "good" Leona was that she would ever directly support the Lunari. Perhaps not blind in her faith, but also not easily dismissing it either and that aspect comes through.

It's also important to keep in mind that the original lore and this event cover different times within the champions lives, so where they're going and where they have been can still fit together. Particularly with Pantheon, much as I dislike his blank slate status as of now. I'm not saying I support flat out changes to lore, but this is hardly a case of Leona being turned into Draven. Which reminds me that we still need a Solari skin for Diana and a Lunari skin for Leona.