Boards›Story, Art, & Sound

About the whole "Foundations" thing. (@Narrative)

ModCaptainMårvelous··27 votes·6,314 views

I just got done reading the Targon interview with the foundations team. It was cool, yeah. However, this part at the end from Ant kinda struck me.

Reynolds: That’s why we call it Foundations. It really is just the foundation that players and Riot teams can build upon. It’s like a sign that says, ‘Demacia is kind of in this direction, now go play and create cool stuff.’

I have to ask: Is that what is really going on here?

I want to point to two major parts of this argument: The anti-fan fiction rule and the feedback the lore team gets when it comes to these stories. Because when you compare these notes to what Ant said, there is a clear and distinct difference between what you guys are wishing to create and what you guys are making.

#The Anti-Fan Fiction Half

A long time ago it was told that players cannot make fan fiction stories canon or suggest major plot points. This kinda stung. Hell, if you know me, I've actively been trying to learn and get on the lore team for a few years now (I'm making zero progress but that's the price you pay for not having professional experience). Riot Narrative, and the team, made it clear that while players may ask to learn more about these characters both champion and non-champion, none of our feedback would actually contribute directly to a story, which brings me to my first flaw:

Are you setting up foundations for what we can explore or TELLING us what we will explore?

Piltover/Zaun was referenced a lot and I'd like to think of that place as my home turf when it comes to fan fiction. I've spent more time writing stories, designing fan concepts/champions and overall trying to flesh out those two places on my own. I should be rather happy about the idea that Riot wants to expand and explode out those regions. Rather, I'm worried. I'm worried that any cool idea I spent years building up on will be completely obsolete. I'm worried that even if I did contribute feedback about these champions, it would largely be ignored.

It makes me feel like the stories I, and others, create for Runeterra are afterthoughts. That I'm not allowed to explore and play with this world as I and any other see fit. Rather, I'm being told that THIS is what the story is and you have to submit to the narrative team's design. You're allowed to play in the sandbox, you just have to use THIS shovel and THIS pail. Perhaps I'm extremely biased when it comes to this but it feels as if the player comes second and the writer comes first. I also understand this is a legal thing with the whole "What if they stole MY story" or "Omg Rito steal my idea gib RP forever" but I kinda think that's still a weak argument. One last thing: I'm not a great writer. I'm not going to pretend I can stand up with guys like Graham who held the 40k universe in the palm of his hand like a writing deity. It just leaves a sour taste that our stories and our ideas don't just play second fiddle, they play off-stage in the green room.

#The Anti-Feedback Half

I'll come out and say it: There seems to be no feedback when it comes to lore changes. We can say they're awesome or that they're not-so-awesome, yes. We can ask what regions we'd like to explore. But when it comes to actual champion and story feedback we can't really make any significant changes. Period.

Take the Targon examples. A lot of people are upset that these characters so fundamentally changed. Pantheon got completely mind-wiped, making him somewhat one-dimensional even if his backstory is thicker. Diana and Leona have completely switched roles, with Diana being the rough-but-peaceful celestial while Leona became the zealot of her religion, even if there's more power for the two of them to actually work together. People addressed these concerns ( Ryugi did an amazing post on the discussion) but they've largely been ignored. We don't have a two-way-street.

In some aspects I understand this as well. You can't pull in a VA to completely rewrite the VO. You can't dig up Pantheon's old VA and ask if he'd like to rerecord everything when you've got 10 other projects requiring 12 different VOs (Hey maybe some of them are dual champs, y'know?). But it's not the case when it comes to a story. Yes, it isn't feasible to ask for the writers to completely scrap a story and it is hardly fair to ask them to completely and utterly remove something. That doesn't mean we can't ask for minor changes. That doesn't mean we can't provide feedback to these characters.

#Conclusion

For Rioters reading this, I apologize if I came off as harsh, overbearing or maybe just know-it-all-y. I've played League for five years and really dug into the story for four of those years. My criticism doesn't come from a place of rage, it comes from a place of passion. I don't want to shove and push and demand an answer, I'd just like to establish an open dialogue and try to get some feedback and a two-way-street going.

It's clear from your Narrative post that you want this place to be fun for both you and us. It's clear that you want this world to be something we can all play around in and something where both fan fiction and fan fact (That's my word for writers on the payroll. Do you like it?) can come together and work as a cohesive unit. You may not be able to directly pull stories and quotes 1:1 from us but that doesn't mean we can't work with you if you'll let us. I just want Runeterra to be a place where we can all share stories.

Thanks for reading this, if you made it to the bottom. No TL;DR. Go read. It's story and art, you should be accustomed to reading. (PS: If anyone else is gonna be at GDC, be sure to meet me there. I love talking about this stuff even if I'm just a super fan)

45 Comments

Dataless7 votes

I seriously doubt League will have any semblance of workable lore for another several years, and that's being optimistic...

RiotAnt in Oz7 votes

Hi there CaptainMårvelous, and everyone else who has chimed in here.

As always - I love the passion from everyone, and that everyone here is having an intelligent, well-reasoned, respectful discussion. Huzzah!

This is not Riot with a capital "R" speaking, this is just me as a gamer and fan of LoL (which I played for around 3 years before I'd ever considered the idea of working here), someone who's been a professional writer for around 15 years, and someone who has worked in other IPs that also gets lots of fanfiction/fan-art etc created around it.

A couple of thoughts:

  • No one here, let alone the writers, would want people to stop writing fanfiction. Fanfiction is awesome, and there are plenty of people who make the jump from writing fanfiction to getting employed professionally to write. It's an invaluable place to learn and hone your craft, get feedback from people who know and love the world and characters your are writing about, and just generally interact with an IP that you love. Do it, and keep doing it.

  • Player sentiment towards characters and world-building (which can be expressed in a myriad of ways, from fanfic, to cosplay, to fanart, to conversations, headcanon, board posts, memes, or whatever) IS a strong voice in the direction of the Lore. Truly. This is true in many big IPs, though stronger in LoL than any other IP I've worked in. I know it can be hard to see that sometimes, especially if the canon veers away from what an individual sees as things that are core to a character/place. This is typically more of an issue when that character/place is less defined, requiring players to fill in the blanks - in these cases, different headcanon starts to form among different people (which can vary hugely - especially across different cultures and languages). Rarely does everyone agree perfectly - opinions of what's cool varies, and different headcanon ideas tend to gain traction in different eco-sytems. We do listen, though, and players' opinions do massively influence us - though this more often on the macro level than the micro level. By that, I mean if all players tend to love "X" about a character, we'd be wise to understand that and find room for "X" to live on unless there's a good reason not to. We are more likely to look at big trends/global sentiment among players than individual ideas. This can influence us in little ways - little nods to fan-favorite things (like helmet bro popping up from time to time, urf sneaking into splash art, etc), or in bigger ways - such as helping to establish the personality of less established champs.

As a personal example, some of the feedback regarding the new Pantheon bio and color text has really got me thinking of story ideas exploring how a little hint of Atreus may still be in there, which hasn't happened with previous incarnations of the Aspect. Perhaps something is different this time around, and the personality of the host starts to re-emerge...

  • A bio is not a complete story/character arc. It's most definitely not the start and end of a character, or the be-all-and-end-all. For example, just because the bio doesn't come out and say "Pantheon and Leona are friends" - and might even show them being antagonists in the past - doesn't mean they can't become friends or allies in future stories, etc. We haven't done heaps of ongoing storytelling in the past, but we definitely want to do a heck of a lot more going forward - the Bilgewater Burning Tides story, and the Harrowing "Shadow and Fortune" story was a start towards that. We do want to develop our character's arcs and their stories - they are not static.

  • I get the frustration when something changes in "Lore" that invalidates something someone's written in fanfiction. It's a bummer. (It also happens professionally as things develop, btw.) Hopefully these changes are for the better, but this stuff aint an exact science, and it's all pretty subjective. It's also something that is very difficult to avoid or mitigate unless we just stop and leave the lore exactly as it is - but that way leads to stagnation and wouldn't be satisfying to anyone. LoL has many, many millions of players, and a heck of a lot of fanfic being generated every day in 40+ languages - it would be impossible for us to have any kind of development with our characters and our lore without invalidating some fan-fic here and there. Note also that this is not restricted to just fanfic - it's a similar thing to making a cosplay outfit or artwork, then that champ getting a re-work and new splash. The more our world and characters get established, fleshed out and developed, the less this becomes an issue - and the more that fanfiction and what you call 'fan fact' (like the term, btw) can work together without clashing.

  • Should we be aware of the ramifications of any changes we make, and have our finger on the pulse of player sentiment? Hell yeah. This is super-important. It's also important not to try to appease everyone with every change - that way leads to blandness and a solution that may not _offend _anyone, but also doesn't really _satisfy _anyone. We should never blindly make a change that no one wants of course (this is where understanding players and their often contradictory opinions matter), but also we shouldn't be afraid to make a change that some people might not like (but others do), as again, if we try to please everyone, or design things (especially characters) by committee then we end up with really boring and unsatisfying characters/stories/worlds.

Anyway, apologies that this has turned into a wall of text! I hope this sheds some light on things, and that it makes some sense.

Cheers! Ant

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Awesome post, Mr. Ant. As someone who loves character design and writing, I find your post is super insightful, and also inspiring.

BetweenSkill8 votes

We should never blindly make a change that no one wants of course

I feel that the removal of the League from League of Legends was a pretty universally disliked change, because while it "restricted" creative storytelling, it WAS what made League's entire story make sense and feel cohesive and unique.

Now it just feels random and pointless, like the gameworld itself became a professional sport. The story is completely disconnected from actual gameplay, so it feels completely pointless to keep up on the lore now.

Just my two cents, hopefully not coming across too toxic or anything :P

Edit: Basically, it feels like the game is the fanfic now, with cool characters coming from a cool story(ies) but with no real reason to be together or fight the way they are.

Decrit3 votes

actually that was a move i liked. Please, don' t be so "universal" in your opinions.

BetweenSkill1 votes

That's why I said "I feel", and "pretty universal" rather than saying everybody. I'm not even arguing with the fact that there was a change, but it was handled extremely poorly so the issues with the change are even more apparent.

Decrit2 votes

Yeah, it was underwhelming execution wise. But the thing i am pointing at here is different, because pretty universally is very big enough :P

Also, in my opinion, even the old lore did not held. I vastly prefer having champions beat each other "because this is the game" rather having an half-coocked reason that restricts the champions themselves; rrasons that are actually beliavable only if you made an effort on accepting them, because even thought were reasonable most of times they felt wrong still.

This reflected heavily on how lore and champion development could go. If you check out the JOJ, half of it is gossip and the other half is development that in the end develops as gossip. Nothing strictly bad with that, but having primarly that is really terrible.

BetweenSkill4 votes

I don't think it was even that "half-cooked", it was a fairly unique concept that tied everything together and gave the story a rich background you could explore, a world ruined by war, the land itself ravaged and corrupted by years of magical abuse, the threads of peace and life hanging on the balance of a hyper-concentrated-powerful organization, struggling to contain the powers of the monstrously strong individuals roaming the lands of Runeterra.

That is SOOO much cooler than what we have now as a whole. Some of the new lore stories are awesome individually, they just don't hold well together, and cohesion is a HUGE part of what makes or breaks lore in a game.

Decrit2 votes

Honestly, i don' see the cohesion you talk so much in the JoJ.

As you said, power was fragmentated and the focus was only on few superstars, so much that it was almost indifferent everything else. Demacia was good, Noxus was evil, practical canvas for Swain and Garen, which does not speak to me about depth and exploration. Also every entry was writtend by different people that did not actually know what were working on, and that was admitted so: one moment you talk about Teemo, the other you spend a whole chapter talking about the executioner' s blade. It' s very hard to keep focus on stuff, compared to the new lore where everything is so much tailored: main characters are on the spotlight but are so interwined with their reality that every step they make feels like a step in a real world, NPCs are more fleshed out or stand out more into their homes and there is no need of paragraphs to give a cultural impression of an object.

And when the old lore got out of these boundaries... how much they could hold? See Kalamandra, see Teemo that shots down Veigar and the nothing more heard, see the characters used as dolls into a scenario just to make them happen ( soraka that inexplicabily does a weird ritual to Irelia to be never heard again, Talon and Katarina being present to Swain coronation just to nod, champion interviews of dudes kept caged somewhere in the IoW)... that stuff could not hold up.

BetweenSkill3 votes

You seem to misunderstand what my point is with cohesion, and that's probably my issue with explaining.

In short, I am not saying the lore was better, because like I said the lore individually now is far better. HOWEVER, removing the IDEA of the League of Legends from League of Legends removed the cohesiveness that held the smaller chunks of lore together. If the new lore was written in the context of the League, well, you could make it work and it would make sense.

It would make sense why a hamster-boy using a toxic blowpipe is fighting a sniper-rifle outfitted sheriff, and why Darius and Garen will fight side by side.

I AM agreeing with you that the new lore is a ton better, but I AM ALSO saying that the removal of the League of Legends from the lore was detrimental to the overall lore as a whole.

The cohesiveness I'm talking about is explaining why the hell all these stories belong in the same world together. Because they're awesome, but so disconnected that there needs to be something solid holding them together for the lore of Runeterra as a whole to stand on its own.

Decrit1 votes

{quoted} The cohesiveness I'm talking about is explaining why the hell all these stories belong in the same world together. Because they're awesome, but so disconnected that there needs to be something solid holding them together for the lore of Runeterra as a whole to stand on its own.

OOOOOH now i get it! Sorry if i was so dense!

Well, in a sense you are right the old lore on that regard was more cohesive. Personally it' s something i never really "appreciated", in the sense of noticed, that much because to me was a no problem: like in the real world weird things stay together so do in Valoran, all that mattered to me were few themes and the narrative style. But now that you let me notice it, it' s something that was a bit harsh due to the whole IoW thing but rather effective. If not that, at least the whole rune wars stuff did.

Exactly like in Fallow where there is the post apocalypse and in Pokémon where there are Trainers, you are right that now LoL needs some "glue" to keep all the weird things connected. I have my thoughts that those "bounds" are already there, and that some hardcore stuff like the rune war will be brought up again soon enough, but still that part is the weakest of the new lore.

Stuff to ponder on. Thanks for bringing it up!

BetweenSkill1 votes

Hey i love discussing this stuff.

On a side note, why the heck do we still have "summoner's rift", "summoner spells", "champions", "the announcer" etc haha. Forgotten relics, make me cry everytime.

Decrit1 votes

It' s a sort of "meta term", since we the players are "summoners" that allow all of the stuff into the game, since otherwise it would be not possible.

The rift is... huh... oh hey look a bracken! runs away

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Hey Ant!

First and foremost, thanks for popping in. I can't imagine this was something you guys really wanted to dive right into. Partially "Well this is a can of worms" and partially "Ok this kid has no idea what he's talking about does he?" Also, for any of the following questions, feel free to say "Well you'll find out soon". Especially if its stuff we don't know yet.

On the actual topic: I'm very glad to hear that you guys are looking at global trends when it comes to champs, although that makes some decisions...I'd say questionable. Mainly the Leona one. Personally, I don't mind Leona's change but for others, it's a big deal. If I may pry a bit: Was this something you saw as a global-sized interpetation (IE: Leona comes off more as the "tragic villain" than the "shimmering hero") or was this your own personal idea?

For the end-all-be-all, I think the problem there is that you guys have so much to work on that it becomes a feeling that while there's more, we won't see more. In that regard, you guys can't be blamed. You're updating an entire IP and it'd be pretty cruel to chastise you. I don't want to say pick up the pace because, like it's been established here, I kinda don't know what I'm talking about and focus on ideals more than reals.

I am surprised that you guys say you're so tuned into player feedback. For many, it felt like you guys weren't due to sort of the darkness from the feedback. Still, I appreciate that you were willing to come in here and talk with us. It may not be as amazing as having you guys open up a massive Dev-Corner article on lore feedback (I would love it if you guys could do that sometime though. That'd be amazing), but coming in here and engaging is kind of what I've been hoping you guys would do.

Thanks again for coming and don't bother worrying about a wall of text. It's story and art. If we wanted short-and-sweet we'd go to memes and games. :)

Jeddy0172 votes

Since you're on the Foundation team,is it alright if I asked how the map of Valoran coming along?There still a lot of general information about Runeterra/Valoran that we don't know. I figured a map would give a good amount of info without potentially spoiling future updates or stories.

You could also release a timeline with all the info that we know.In fact for a map,you could darken areas that haven't been update.Like in many open world games,places aren't added until you go there.

You know,I just like a general "Bio" of Valoran.Like how abundant is the use of magic or hextech or how do the different factions/regions interact with each other without the IOW.You know stuff like that.I figure there should be some general info for players to know if they wish to make fan content.

TerraRising1 votes

The only time I can recall where fan feedback altered anything was changing Mordekaiser's title from "Lord of Death" to "The Iron Revenant," and that was only after dozens of posts and threads here and on Reddit hating the change.

Maybe the teams have been lucky so far, but I can still envision a situation where Foundations and Narrative collectively pull a "Freljord" and makes fundamental changes to an established champ, group of champs or an entire region that they are not willing to alter, edit or delete for various selfish reasons.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ant in Oz,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=HFYAKFh5,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-03-05T00:49:00.429+0000)

  • A bio is not a complete story/character arc. [...] they are not static.

But they've kinda been, apart from Bulgwaster.

RiotDinopawz7 votes

Hey folks,

Thought I'd chime in with my own two cents...

First up, it's great to see everyone involved here getting discussions going around the new lore for our Targon champs! Everyone has their own view as to what these new tales mean for how it’s impacted the champs’ previous lore and how those characters are now perceived. As Ant in Oz says, there can sometimes be a sense that a champ’s entire story is conveyed within their bio, that it’s the essence of their beginning, middle and end. A sense that this is their story and here it ends, now go play them…

But I think it’s fair to say that we see a champ’s bio as the starting point of their story life. It’s the information that tells us who they were and what happened to mould them into the champion they are now. A good bio gives us enough information and story to know who that champ is and what’s driving them onwards - their motivation. it makes us want to know more about them, allows us to identify and/or empathise with them and makes us care about what happens to them (or what we want to happen to them). A good bio allows everyone to take the champ’s story onwards in their games, fan-fic, art, cosplay or forum discussions. It allows them to talk to others about how a champ’s story might develop and what great or nefarious destiny might lie in their future.

Take the Bilgewater champions, for example. We took their bios and pulled them forward into stories like The Reckoning and Shadow & Fortune, and even then, their stories have threads yet to pull. We wanted to show that stories develop, that actions have consequences and that the bios are just starting places for us to develop the champs and the world of Runeterra. So look at the bios and story text here as a place where the endless possibilities opened up by Mount Targon and its associated champs can be explored. What lies in store for Diana and Leona? What might happen if Pantheon comes face to face with Leona? Why are the Aspects coming to Runeterra right now? These and a hundred other questions are ripe for the asking, and the potential for new and exciting stories are wide open for everyone’s imagination to run with.

Race you to the summit…

Graham

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Hey Graham! (It feels weird calling you by your name. Like 99% of Rioters I call by handle but I guess that comes from the major author name status.)

I'm glad you guys have long-term in mind. Hell, I think Bilgewater is legitimately some of the best media League/Riot has ever produced. However, the fear I (and others) have is that Riot is gonna take a while to bring these further stories into the light. Which leads to fears that all these grand stories you guys have planned of gods, heroes and furry gremlins with blowdarts are gonna be missing in action. In hindsight we can't really blame you for that, as you guys have a lot on your plate, but I think people might like a teaser or (at the very least) some plot-hooks swinging from the rafters even if we don't get the full story.

Looking back to Bilgewater, making the place a gangwar of MF vs. GP was amazing and it left Bilgewater feeling natural. Like the story concluded but there was still more to explore. No idea if you guys got plans for Targon but I hope this gives us a nice stage to stay on, even if the story is just a short one.

Thanks again for coming in. I can't imagine this is really an easy topic to dive into without the fear of ruffling feathers but I, and I'm sure many others, really appreciate you rushing down from that summit to say hi to us.

Mandaari2 votes

Bitter post ahead, but hopefully constructive.

Take the Bilgewater champions, for example. We took their bios and pulled them forward into stories like The Reckoning and Shadow & Fortune, and even then, their stories have threads yet to pull. We wanted to show that stories develop, that actions have consequences and that the bios are just starting places for us to develop the champs and the world of Runeterra.

I think what you fail to see is that there was a huge difference in how the Bilgewater lore and the Targon lore was handled. Like you just said, the Bilgewater lores were pulled from their bios. They weren't rewritten, they were expanded upon and fleshed out. All of the actions that Graves and TF took were a result of their existing lore. Nobody was up in arms about TF and Graves resolving their issues because that evolution of the story made perfect sense from the characters we knew.

Meanwhile Riot threw that out the window with the Targon lore. You didn't expand upon the characters, you rewrote them. I could not care less where the characters can go from here if they're not the same characters.

But I think it’s fair to say that we see a champ’s bio as the starting point of their story life.

Bullshit.

If you considered bios as starting points then you wouldn't change them. There's a difference between upping the quality of a bio and changing it. Making something come to the same general conclusion by taking a different path does not count as being the same character. I would have been fine if Leona became a zealot as a continuation of her lore. I would have been fine if she and Pantheon had some momentous falling out. I would have been fine if Diana evolved into a more reasonable person.

And this whole "you can't please them all" argument is completely totally irrelevant. If you're concerned about angering the new lore fans by changing the lore back to satisfy the old lore fans then I have a perfect solution: Don't make the lores different in the first place. But since the lore's already been changed my message to the people who'd be upset if it were reverted is this: Piss off, we were here first.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

Tbf its not like we can expect a story like shadow and fortune for every champion

Nefas5 votes

When I actually see character progression over events for a decent number of champs then I'll believe bio's aren't the end all be all. Scores of champs still have League lore. The vast majority of champs haven't been touched lore-wise- at all - since their release. That's not a commitment to champs being anything more than their bio. The client doesn't even have anything more than a couple of lines with no link whatsoever to long lore - that's not a commitment to lore, period.

When I see stories from events added to the client as links in champion profiles or some sort of 'lore library' in the client, I'll believe bio's aren't the end all be all. A player who joined today would have no idea that long lores or the scene bits even exist from inside the client and no simple way to be find the old stories. That's not a commitment to maintaining a vibrant and active lore that is expanding to more players.

Hellioning7 votes

This entire post, and most of the anger the narrative team gets, is entirely because lore doesn't come out that often. It's hard to see that the bios are just the beginning of a champion's story when, for almost every single champion, it is the entirety of their story. Most champs get a brief intro and then nothing for the next couple years. And most of the story events we do get are almost entirely retcons.

So yes, I do want to look forward, but I don't see the point right now. Why bother hoping for something that will probably not come?

DynamiteGazelle3 votes

Yeah, I feel the same way. It's like, if they continue releasing lore at this rate, it's going to be a solid decade before the foundations are laid and they can actually start the so-called "chapter 2's" to anything

Lovely Pants6 votes

Kind of something that's always on my mind whenever conversations about lore happen is this:

Probably the biggest issue with Leauge's lore is that basically the entire span of its existence after the demise of the Journal has felt like a drawn out cycle of reinventing origin stories. At the moment it feels like we only have page 1 written for like, I dunno, 20 champions? The rest of the bios might as well be wiped completely clean for your more passionate readers because of the uncertainty of knowing what a champion's base personality and motivations are going to end up being once that are revisited. League's lore has always been pretty shallow, sure, but I don't really understand when your teams go heavily about the process of expanding lore by rewriting from page 1 instead of generally taking the tactic of letting the shallow first impressions and trivial details of the origins stand and continuing with page 2 to develop that character into something more complex. It often feels like you're keeping us trapped in shallow knowledge of the world when that happens.

I don't know if what I've said just now makes sense to you, but maybe I can explain better by comparison.

A big reason why I think it feels like any backlash against character reimaging which occured during the Bilgewater event seems so much more minor and praise more evident is that every character's past really felt like a continuation of everything that had come before. Granted, most of the characters involved in Bilgewater had pretty vaguely defined plot points to work with whereas you're reordering a whole lot of proper nouns and specific accounts of events with the Targon set, but most of these characters did still undergo pretty extreme transformations. Graves' entire point of existence in League being defined by his motivation of revenge against Twisted Fate, for example.

I like most of the work done with Targon, really. But you must understand that the revelation of a new lore which redefines a lot of these trivial story details and names feels a lot like a promise of broken continuity for however so many years in the future it takes to resolve the game's lore in the piecemeal fashion it's being done.

A separate comment on Pantheon.

Atreus' lore was really well done in my own opinion. I just think you should consider that since it takes so long for any sort of development to happen with characters in a roster of hundreds, the fact that the final part of Pantheon's lore comes across like a full-stop period mark on what potential he can reach as a character is what's causing a lot of the frustrated reactions. Leona and Diana have very visible possibilities of character growth built into their futures as aspects of Targon. Pantheon simply seems to have a rote duty to perform.

Star Guardían5 votes

If you have no prior experience with ANY form of prior published professional work, I can assure you that will not get into Riot. At least not in the near future. Jaredan said, at the moment, they're focussing on acquiring seasoned writers. My advice would be to try and get your foot in the door through other avenues. This probably applies to all disciplines; Riot only hires the cream of the crop.

As for fan fiction being treated like an afterthought, well, it kind of is. And I think it should be. What's most important is Riot telling the stories they want to tell. I think of FF like mods. They're great and add a lot of appreciation to the main game but the main game is more important.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

Trust me, I'm well aware of the situation when it comes to getting into Riot. It's tough yo.

Personally, and this is where we differ, I don't see fan fiction as an afterthought. And, a long time ago, Riot didn't either. Remember this little number?

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/9/98/Eleisa's_Miracle_item.png/revision/latest?cb=20130319090310

That's Eleisa's Miracle. Removed item, used to give you some HP/Mana regen, etc. However, the item itself isn't what is interesting. it's the story behind it: This item was named after a major RP event on the forums where a RP character returned from the void. It was an event so major and worth remembering that Riot placed this item into the game as a manner of commemoration to the game's fan-driven story.

Fan fiction can be an afterthought depending on the content. Most fan fiction is bad, as I'm sure we're all aware. However, there are gems to be found and stories that can transcend and perhaps even do better than Riots own team. Star Wars entire EU (RIP forever old friend) was entirely fan fiction. However, characters like Mara Jade and Admiral Thrawn proved to be so popular that they're coming back from the EU into the new canon. Characters, made by fans, are now canon.

That is the power fan fiction can have. I'm not saying that all fan fiction will hit this level and I'm certainly not suggesting that Riot should let fans run free with their game and commit chaos to the story. I am, however, sincere and honest in my belief that fan fiction is necessary for the IP just as much as any core-story. Especially (and this is major) when Riot took so long in enacting some major lore events that fans themselves took what they could and created vibrant and spectacular stories in this world.

Pyrodinium1 votes

The way both Riot Games and the fandom of League of Legends has grown in the recent past makes something like the Eleisa's Miracle extremely difficult to pull of again. While we once had a small and unified group of lore fans, we now field a population in which multiple factions with wildly different, often opposite preferences exist (without going far at all: the feud between "LoL becoming too gritty" versus "LoL finally becoming serious").

A fandom-driven event would have to be huge nowadays in order to draw the same attention from the community and Riot, and I would event argue that we have had examples in recent memory (for example: Helmet Bro, and the multitude of skins based on community ideas).

I also agee that fanfiction can be a big part of a franchise, but would hesitate at conting licensed products like the Thrawn saga as fanfiction.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Sorry I'm getting back to you so late. I just got home.

While yes, I agree that it can definitely be difficult, I think it's still something that shouldn't outright be discouraged. It just means that more planning is needed. Hell, if Riot can organize tournaments and such, massive events like Bilgewater should be ez pz. There's definitely a cost to it but the community gathering that can come would outweight the basic cost.

Fandom driven events do get huge! Just only in their respective regions. If events are to get huge now? Riot NEEDS to help the community. This isn't like the old days when it was just NA and a little EU/KR/CHN, Riot needs to help these people spread the word. And as for the comment on licensed products? Everything, regardless of who or where it starts, begins life as a fan dream or a concept. IMO, the only difference between a canon story and fan fiction can sometimes be just a coypright logo.

GreenLore4 votes

Overall I think you are seeing the whole "we can't adapt fan-fictions" a bit too tight.

I am pretty sure that the general view on the champions does play a role.(just remember how Jayces first lore was changed due to community feedback) Heck the changes to Leonas and Dianas characters were likely done in response to the opinions of the players,because over the years I've seen lots of people who though Leona being too good in the lore(as it doesn't fit the gameplay and doesn't make much sense in such a place) and Diana coming off as irrational evil(with lots of diana fans being in complete denial of that aspect anyway)

About Riots lack of feedback First of all there is the problem that the fanbase rarely has only one opinion.With millions of fans you've also got million of opinions. The targon lore was rather divisive,but that means that even if some don't like the new direction,others do and regardless if they change it again or not,one group will be unhappy anyway.

And if Riot has planned the general outline of the story ahead,then certain aspects can't be rewritten(or may not even need to be rewritten,for example a lot of people are unhappy that atreus is dead,but in the end its always possible that riot plans for him to return anyway),without having to change their plans for the future.

Last but not least,there is the simple problem that if they change released lore based on fan reactions,it will cost them some resources and given the fact that the retcon still hasn't been finished after almost 2 years I'd say the faster they can move on to the next project,the better. They should read the reactions of the fans and think about how they can avoid the things that were disliked in the future,or how a future story of a champ could make that better,because currently they should focus on updating the lores of the champs,to finally get the retcon done,but if they always need to go back,then they'll never be able to move forward.

ModCaptainMårvelous5 votes

You're probably right on the fan fics because, like I said, I'm coming from a biased perspective. Still, I think if a fan story has merit, heart and talent put into it, the narrative team should absolutely look at it and/or at least talk to the writer if they're changing his/her champion.

Now, as for the targon lore, this isn't a case of "We're adapting champions to better fit the vision of others". Diana in her lore certainly wasn't this saintly woman. She was a tortured and bruised woman who lashed out and killed others. Leona was a stalwart protector but she wasn't desiring to kill everything that moves. She had goals and boundaries. Now it's kind of reversed and, to a lot of people, it's wiping away key aspects of the characters. Pantheon is the most egregious example but honestly he had little to go on.

As for fan feedback? Yeah, I know it's a lot of people to listen to but there honestly needs to be some feedback. Rioters should address criticisms about their narrative viewpoint and respond, even if the end result is that nothing is changed. I'm not calling for Riot to give the reins to the players, that would end up with just shipping on the level of Fire Emblem. Rather, I want the writers to acknowledge feelings people have and respond to them, even if the end result nets no major changes.

On the topic of the "larger story", I know there are definitely larger plans for these stories but you need to set the stage and finish your plate before you hype up a major showdown. Look at Ionia. We still have all these shadow factions, warring clans and post-war devastation but we still have characters being introduced and changing the lore with every introduction. Don't hype up some major event unless everyone can play. Bilgewater worked because it was a self-contained story. Shurima worked because it was self-contained. Freljord (And Targon to an extent) didn't work because they set up this grand war to begin...and then ditched it. I know there are places that need help but that is NOT what should be done.

The argument with the retcon is a flawed one. It's not that these things could take time, it is that Riot doesn't do them. Let's say you take a minuscule change and want to change the story so that X is Y or something. That'd take A.) The time to rewrite it. B.) The time to proof-read and edit for correction. C.) The time to make it multi-lingual and D.) publish it to the main website. A talented team, as I assume Riot is, can do that in two days to a week. Difficult, maybe, but shouldn't fans feel like they're being listened to? Shouldn't fans also have input on the characters they love? Saying "It's hard though" is a terrible cop-out.

Like I said above. I'm not asking that they gut and completely change every story. What I am asking is that they open and dialogue, allow people to discuss with them and be willing to alter parts of the story. NOT completely change the whole thing.

GreenLore4 votes

{quoted}

Leona was a stalwart protector but she wasn't desiring to kill everything that moves. She had goals and boundaries.

I think you are misinterpreting her color text here a bit. Its not Leona who wants to kill the people,its her sun powers who want to do that,because as her color text says "The** being** she had joined with atop the mountain longed to burn these men with its cleansing fire."

Sure Leona is a more agressive in her new lore,getting angry at diana for what she said about the moon,being willing to defend herself against atreus and trying to kill diana to avenge the elders,but she is far from "desiring to kill everything that moves"

This is actually something that is reflected in Dianas moon powers(when she uses them against the horrors it says that she gets filled with hate by them) and is something that was actually implied to some degree in dianas original lore,where her character took a turn to the extreme the moment her moon powers awakened,which did cause some people to speculate that the moon powers were actually responsible for dianas fanatismus. And if Dianas moon powers have their own will,then it would make sense for leonas sun powers to be the same.

Pyrodinium4 votes

I think if a fan story has merit, heart and talent put into it, the narrative team should absolutely look at it and/or at least talk to the writer if they're changing his/her champion.

Apart from the inevitable legal reasons this can't be done (as Riot writers aren't supposed to see unsolicited materials), the logistical load of contacting the creators, scheduling meetings, discusing and iterating with those creators and so on would slow the Narrative pipeline to a crawl. And that's without even considering that the fan-creators would inevitably be working without insider knowledge, basically stabbing at the dark with their feedback.

And even then, the world of LoL fanfiction is huge, with each champion and faction having dozens of different interpretations, written by a multitude of authors with wildly varying styles, biases and goals. Which ones you heed, and which ones you ignore? How you deal with the fact that most feedback would come from the English-speaking/writing audience?

Even more complicated: If this model would be applied, after the feedback is relayed, the decision of what to include or change would still be on Riot's Narrative, and any decision made by them would engender dissatisfaction from the part of the fandom whose opinions were effectively ignored.

What do we gain with this model?

As for fan feedback? Yeah, I know it's a lot of people to listen to but there honestly needs to be some feedback. Rioters should address criticisms about their narrative viewpoint and respond, even if the end result is that nothing is changed. I'm not calling for Riot to give the reins to the players, that would end up with just shipping on the level of Fire Emblem. Rather, I want the writers to acknowledge feelings people have and respond to them, even if the end result nets no major changes.

This is exactly what the Rioters do. They don't respond to every single thread giving feedback, of course, but since their actual work is not responding to our feedback, but instead writing the story of the game, I think we can give them a pass on that.

The argument with the retcon is a flawed one. It's not that these things could take time, it is that Riot doesn't do them. Let's say you take a minuscule change and want to change the story so that X is Y or something. That'd take A.) The time to rewrite it. B.) The time to proof-read and edit for correction. C.) The time to make it multi-lingual and D.) publish it to the main website. A talented team, as I assume Riot is, can do that in two days to a week. Difficult, maybe, but shouldn't fans feel like they're being listened to? Shouldn't fans also have input on the characters they love? Saying "It's hard though" is a terrible cop-out.

Writing professionally, it tends to not be that easy to make changes. Projects like the Targon update tend to be finished weeks in advance from their intended release date, so it is often not viable to make changes after the material is available. I can think of a couple of reasons on why changing a story may be impractical:

  • By the time the piece is released, the writers involved on it may be already working on their next assignment, and pulling them from it would delay that work.
  • Teams involved in localization tend to work on a tight schedule, and can't just be handed a text to translate. Any change would need to wait in the queue to be finished, complicating the whole pipeline.
  • Changing a supposedly minor detail in the story may impact the work made on the champion for future developments, especially if it's something related to their personality (and most criticism towards lore updates is targeted exactly at this).

Like I said above. I'm not asking that they gut and completely change every story. What I am asking is that they open and dialogue, allow people to discuss with them and be willing to alter parts of the story. NOT completely change the whole thing.

My opinion on this is quite opposite: The Narrative discipline should feel confident on the work they ship, and not cave to the demands of the players. Writing by comitee would be a glaring error on the part of their writers.

Come on, Cap. You yourself are an author, and I bet you don't change stuff from your stories only because some of your audience think their ideas are more adequate than yours.

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes

Sorry I'm getting back to you so late. Was at class all day.

{quoted}

Apart from the inevitable legal reasons this can't be done (as Riot writers aren't supposed to see unsolicited materials), the logistical load of contacting the creators, scheduling meetings, discusing and iterating with those creators and so on would slow the Narrative pipeline to a crawl. And that's without even considering that the fan-creators would inevitably be working without insider knowledge, basically stabbing at the dark with their feedback.

I still think the legal reasons are kind of a strawman, but I've talked about that before.

So yes, there is stuff that the fans will be left out of, but that doesn't mean there can't be feedback on things like how a character is now portrayed, how the story has changed, etc. Fans may not have all the deep rich knowledge but they can see what they dislike. And hell, if they don't wanna change it because there's more to it? Just say so. "That'll be addressed later" is a hell of a lot better than "..."

And even then, the world of LoL fanfiction is huge, with each champion and faction having dozens of different interpretations, written by a multitude of authors with wildly varying styles, biases and goals. Which ones you heed, and which ones you ignore? How you deal with the fact that most feedback would come from the English-speaking/writing audience?

Even more complicated: If this model would be applied, after the feedback is relayed, the decision of what to include or change would still be on Riot's Narrative, and any decision made by them would engender dissatisfaction from the part of the fandom whose opinions were effectively ignored.

What do we gain with this model?

This is exactly what the Rioters do. They don't respond to every single thread giving feedback, of course, but since their actual work is not responding to our feedback, but instead writing the story of the game, I think we can give them a pass on that.

I'd argue we can ask Riot's balance team what they gain. By extent, they deal with the same thing: thousands of different feelings on what a champion should play like, scale like and move like. A deep thought on where it should go and what should be done with this champion. A primarily NA/English feedback train and at the end of it you're still going to end up with dissatisfied people.

The thing that is gained, however, is valuable. People are listened to. People, even if not all feedback is responded to, get to make their voices heard. There are several central threads on what Riot wants to do during the mage update in the Dev Corner, why would it be so difficult to do one for Targon? Again, maybe not directly changing things but at the very least there can be a feedback loop going. All I'm saying is that if other teams can do this from splash artists to designers to modelers, why can't writers?

Writing professionally, it tends to not be that easy to make changes. Projects like the Targon update tend to be finished weeks in advance from their intended release date, so it is often not viable to make changes after the material is available. I can think of a couple of reasons on why changing a story may be impractical:

  • By the time the piece is released, the writers involved on it may be already working on their next assignment, and pulling them from it would delay that work.
  • Teams involved in localization tend to work on a tight schedule, and can't just be handed a text to translate. Any change would need to wait in the queue to be finished, complicating the whole pipeline.
  • Changing a supposedly minor detail in the story may impact the work made on the champion for future developments, especially if it's something related to their personality (and most criticism towards lore updates is targeted exactly at this).

I'll agree with you here. I'm in the dark on how difficult it actually is to change a story. I assume it can't be THAT hard. I'm likely wrong. So I concede on this.

My opinion on this is quite opposite: The Narrative discipline should feel confident on the work they ship, and not cave to the demands of the players. Writing by comitee would be a glaring error on the part of their writers.

Come on, Cap. You yourself are an author, and I bet you don't change stuff from your stories only because some of your audience think their ideas are more adequate than yours.

I appreciate the complement but I'm hardly an author. As an aside, that's something of a terrible comparison to make considering I'm not a canon writer. Arguing anyone's ideas are better than someone elses comes off as arrogant especially for a fan fiction writer.

The main thing we differ here on is that I too am not asking for writing by commitee. However, I don't think the audience voice should be told "Shut up, we know better". Feedback is important and a variety of players all expressing their concerns should be heeded by the narrative team. I just can't get behind the team saying "Cool thats nice"

Norscout3 votes

You have alot of great insight and many good ideas. Riot would be very lucky to be able to hire you

NuclearSmoothie3 votes

Do you happen to have a blog or site where I could follow you? I do have a lot to say on this but I'm a bit hesitant on posting my opinion about this on the boards. People are very passionate about their favorite characters and I feel I might come off as rude or harsh. (I also need some extra time to construct what I want to say better so I might get back to you on this).

That being said I do feel for those that had their head cannon/ideas ruined by the new lore. I'm def gonna miss old Leona and Diana...but I don't hate the new lore and I feel that it actually does give me a chance to work with something new/different. It won't be the same but I can certainly conceptualize new ideas and scenarios that I think will be fun to write or draw.

ModCaptainMårvelous4 votes

I only have a twitter, I just use the forums to show my work and such. That being said, you should post your opinion anyways. I've gotten flak for liking certain decisions before, there's no reason you should be fearful your idea is bad.

I think the problem many people have with this lore is that it removes more than it adds. Some of my personal favorite lore is stuff like Shurima and Bilgewater. Rather than cut and remove and retcon, they naturally expanded upon it. Sivir's still a mercenary goddess who is sick as hell with her chakram, she's just also a princess now. Gangplank is still the one true king of Bilgewater, he's just seen some shit. By comparison, this new lore scraps what little we had of Leona/Diana and says "No they're different now".

Pyrodinium3 votes

Maybe you weren't paying attention at the time, but the same arguments that you put against the Leona/Diana update were leveled against the Gangplank/Sivir one, which I believe illustrates perfectly how subjective is the difference between expanding upon a character's story and carelessly changing it.

NuclearSmoothie1 votes

Okay, I finally have time to sit down and type this out.

I feel a bit late as GreenLore covered most of what I wanted to say. I do have more to add though. When it comes to getting feedback from the fans/community on lore I think people tend to get to attached to certain ideas and their fav characters. It makes people scared of progress or change (understandable) even when it might be necessary. I'm not saying Mount Targon ABSOUTLEY NEEDED a lore update, but I am glad they finally got around to it. The new lore paints a more refined picture of Mount Targon and gave the characters a more consistent theme. I def expected major changes to my fav characters (Diana, Leona), but the changes will (hopefully, we still have 2 more champs to go) work better for the champions as a whole. Many people talk about the flaws in the new lore when the old lore was far from flawless. Don't get me wrong I still like the old lore, but I do feel that it needed change/an update.

I mean when you look at lore in a bigger picture Diana, Zed, and Morgana all share the same story in a way. -They all felt oppressed/alone in their society
-They find something magical and ancient that gives them powers -They killed people who opposed them after getting said powers -They serve as an "evil" counter part to another champ

Lots of similarities...

The Mount Targon "event" isn't quite over yet so I'll have to wait and see how I feel by the end of it all...but for the time being I am okay with the changes. I don't personally feel like I've been heavily restricted from writing/drawing my ideas on my fave characters. It just feels like I have new things to work with.

Shíny1 votes

Gangplank is still the one true king of Bilgewater, he's just seen some shit.

That isn't true, Gangplank wasn't ever the king of bilgewater. The obsessive stagnating "king of bilgewater" gangplank is only found in the new lore. Old Gangplank was off adventuring and doing league stuff, he never took the mantle of King of Bilgewater.

It's nice that you like new gangplank, but don't pretend that's always what he was.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Sorry, my bad.

Gangplank, old lore, could always claim the title. He just didn't choose to because "muh league". If anything, one could argue that it could have been a natural continuation if the League retcon had been canon. GP is no longer a champ, he goes back to Bilgewater and becomes king. Either way, he's still pretty much the same rough fellow who has buckled some serious swash, he's just had some major life....changes.

Bultz2 votes

Many words. Hurt brain.

ModCaptainMårvelous16 votes

"Memes and Games" might be more your speed in that case.

Artum Tsumia1 votes

While I will agree that some of the direction of this Targon event is iffy, I'm of the mindset that the "minor" changes to the details of the champions does a lot to unite their stories which is something that I'm always glad to see come into the lore.

As far as changes to the personalities though, it's difficult to make a judgement there at this time. Much if not all of the core personalities are still there, though things become muddled due to the overall dark tone and foreshadowing of what it to come. Without me going back and reviewing Diana and Leona's lore, there was easily enough of the original in place for me to accept them as the same characters and more or less just expanded lore. Diana is still an outcast, hated and prone to bursts of violence, but it was never in my mind that she did not desire some sort of peace and acceptance. It was the vehement rejection of her truth that kept her there and I most certainly never thought that despite how "good" Leona was that she would ever directly support the Lunari. Perhaps not blind in her faith, but also not easily dismissing it either and that aspect comes through.

It's also important to keep in mind that the original lore and this event cover different times within the champions lives, so where they're going and where they have been can still fit together. Particularly with Pantheon, much as I dislike his blank slate status as of now. I'm not saying I support flat out changes to lore, but this is hardly a case of Leona being turned into Draven. Which reminds me that we still need a Solari skin for Diana and a Lunari skin for Leona.

More from Story, Art, & Sound

Petition to keep the Bilgewater ARAM map in circulation
Story, Art, & Sound154 comments
1,161
votes
[SUPER IMPORTANT PETITION] Change Sion's ban quote...
Story, Art, & Sound54 comments
597
votes
Can we get an Honor animation?! 4 ways to insult an opponent but none to congratulate them.
Story, Art, & Sound202 comments
578
votes
Petition to make Rengar wiggle his butt when there's a pounce-able target near his bush
Story, Art, & Sound140 comments
476
votes
About this years harrowing...
Story, Art, & Sound357 comments
459
votes
RIOT, please postpone Blood Moon Diana and make it into a Legendary skin.
Story, Art, & Sound236 comments
423
votes

More by CaptainMårvelous

"Wow dude you're playing like shit"
Gameplay167 comments
298
votes
Can the Cass situation from today be the beginning of a trend?
Gameplay95 comments
257
votes
How to Reward Vets (Without just dumping 30+ boxes on them)
General Discussion341 comments
254
votes
Please make Taric's V-neck scale with armor.
Story, Art, & Sound48 comments
242
votes
Riot, you're working yourselves deeper into a corner with skins.
Story, Art, & Sound135 comments
241
votes
Gotta say: Not a fan of Kayle's new look.
Story, Art, & Sound267 comments
237
votes