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My problems with new!Leona

Talos of Altmora··20 votes·4,367 views
My problems with Targon

After reading Jareden's response to my other two post in My problems with new Taric, I decided I needed to go into my problem's with Linda (Please see the other thread) more to properly illustrate it better. I know this is my third post on the matter and your probably thinking something along the lines of "Come on Talos, there not gonna change it because it upsetted a small number of people." And your right, I know they're not going to change it. That's why I makes me angry that they did it in the first place, not only were they characters I loved and wanted to hear more about, but I'll never be able to enjoy them again.

Now then as the Title suggests, this thread is about Leona. Well, it's misleading, because new!Leona is nothing like Leona, she is a completely different person. The kind, compassionate, but strong and determined warrior that we knew is no more. I would like to introduce you to Linda, the Solari Inquisitor, who brings enlightenment to some, death to others. The one who would like to tell you if you would like to shine like the sun, first you must burn like one.

Now, where do I begin? Well, let's start with Linda's backstory. So we start of with her living as a member of the Rakkor, a tribe of mighty warriors who believe that if they aren't the strongest warrior's the sun will die, and if that happens, well the whole world will end and there will be no new worlds at all. Linda was raised by this tribe, and was taught how to fight and kil as soon as she can walk. Oka, that is consistent with the old lore (to a certain extent anyways.)

In the mists that now surround the summit, monsters come down to attack. Linda joined in and is implied to have killed her fair share of monsters, until she meets the golden boy with bat wings. Clearly seeing that he is not a threat, and that the poor kid is lost, she kindly directs him to the top of the mountain. I hope you enjoyed that description because after that , Linda truly becomes a separate person from Leona after that. It turns out that Atreus saw her and tattled on her. (he is called a boy, but we're never given their exact ages, so I'll assume they are around the same age.)

Okay, so after that she faces trial by combat... Against Aterus. Now, old!Leona, when faced with the possibility of killing a friend and fellow member of Rakkor, she simply gave up. After all, she thinks that strength should be used to protect, what good does it to hurt your friends? Linda, on the other hand, apparently fought Aterus to a standstill but "neither could land a deathblow." I probably should've known then that Linda wasn't anything like Leona. I have no problem with her killing, as long as it is to protect people. However, should Leona have been faced with this, she would have tried to fight, but then quit. She would never try to outright kill a fellow member of her tribe.

Anyways, here we have the arrival of the Solari. The Solari are the ones in charge, a brutal church that 'rejects all other lights as false". The elder has had prophetic dreams and upon hearing what Leona has done, he believes that Leona is the key to this prophecy. In the original, Leona's values aligned with the Solari, and the fact that they saw something divine (Literally, before her execution the sun itself stopped it from happening.) in her, led her to be a member of the Solari and the Paragon of their beliefs. Linda was just apparently "Right place, right time" and she is whisked away to her new life.

Then, she joins up with the Ra-Horak, the Solari's inquisitorial arm (although they would much rather be called warriors) and is heavily indoctrinated, (not as in "she's met the Reapers" that would actually explain a lot) but all that changed when Diana came back from meeting her aspect. Linda escorts her to the elders and when Diana gives her pitch on her new-found religion, Linda "felt her anger build with every word Diana spoke" and hoped to kill her. This is the point where I realized, to my absolute horror, how far apart Linda was from Leona. Leona and old! Diana shared a connection, it was heavily implied that Diana had a crush on her, that they knew each other, that they loved each other. (if it was platonically or romantically is up to interpretation) It was a dynamic that could have been explored. It was interesting, and I, along with other fans, wanted to hear more.

Linda and new!Diana no longer have this dynamic. The lore team apparently didn't think it was worth exploring. Perhaps it didn't fit in with their new, "better" Targon. Perhaps it wasn't good for production. In any case, along with Leona's character, we also have also lost her dynamics with other characters. Anyways, Then comes Diana's murder of the elders. In the original, you could make a reasonable argument for self-defense (because they were in the process to execute her) but here? The moon took her over and had her kill them when the possibility of her just escaping not coming into question. Moreover, if the moon didn't want to be pursued, why is Leona alive? My personal theory is that the aspects are maluptive bastards that are all working together for "The Greater Good", it's just that because they have no physical forms, they have to borrow one. Some, like Pantheon, just steal the body outright. Others are more subtle. They slowly change their hosts, until, perhaps after decades of eroding away their will, the aspect has a new meat puppet.

Admittedly, that may be an argument from sheer spite, but the reading the new lore doesn't exactly give me anything else. In fact, let's talk about Leona meeting with her aspect. So, in her hunt for that heretic she climbs up the mountain tracking her. She doesn't stop to eat or sleep, letting pure fury drive her to the top (Trynadmere would be jealous) and it is there she meets the golden boy again. He offers her the knowledge of the gods, and Leona accepts this. "She took the boy’s hand as he smiled and led her into the light. " Then"A column of searing illumination stabbed down from the heavens and engulfed Leona. She felt an awesome presence filling her limbs with terrifying power and forgotten knowledge from the earliest epochs of the world."

So, this is another reason for my headcanon. Before she accepted, this quote was in the paragraph "Eventually Leona reached the top of the mountain, breathless, exhausted, starved and stripped of all thought save punishing Diana." But when she accepts the aspect, this changes to "The warrior who came down the mountain looked the same as the one who had climbed it, but inside Leona was much changed. She still had her memories and thoughts, was still master of her own flesh, but a sliver of something vast and inhuman had chosen her to be its mortal vessel. It gifted her with incredible powers and awful knowledge that haunted her eyes and weighed heavily upon her soul; knowledge she could only ever share with one person. Now, more than ever, Leona knew she had to find Diana. "

Weird change huh? Now, in my original post, a commenter spoke about the eldritch truth, you know, that trope about knowing something man was not meant to know changing a person, but I don't get that vibe here. What I get is that this was that this was planned. I talked about it in my post about Taric, but thankfully Jaredan (a rioter and an editor) came on and correct me on my mistakes. Still he said and I quote "I think that's an OK connotation to have. If you believe that Targon takes the agency away from everyone, then I understand why you would interpret it the way you did." I mean, it's pretty clear that the Aspects are more than willing to take control of their host (just ask Atreus...oh wait, sorry you can't, pantheon sent him to his ancestors and is wearing his body, nm) but maybe some can't take complete control immediately. Still Leona's switch from "KILL THE HERETIC!" Became "wow, I must find Diana." Granted, the same rioter also said that I should let things play out and gave a detailed explanation of the intentions they have. So you can come to your own conclusions. Check out his quote here.

So, there are my problems with Linda. Leona will always have a place in my heart as a kind person willing to defend the innocent even if it means her life. Linda is an awful replacement. A murderous inquisitor who I can assure you will not protect you (unless of course you are a solari.). A person who may not even be in control of herself anymore. She is not Leona, and she will never be. Even if you buy Jaredan saying that more of Leona's true character will show up later if I keep reading, why should I? Leona already had dynamics and character, and the lore team threw it away.

As a Side note. I want you to understand why I'm doing this, and why I'm so passionate about it. Lore was a big draw for me, it's why I joined LoL and left Dota 2. I love their characters and setting and I love the game. And I'm sure everyone on the board loves it as much as I do, if not more so. But seeing these characters changed so drastically, it horrifies me. Imagine for a minute your favorite character. He/she may not be your main, but you love him/her because of their lore and their personality. With this new lore, it shows me that riot does not care about that. If they think that character can be better by changing their personality, they will do it. Even if it is a complete contradiction to their original character. And the worst part is they won't even acknowledge it, they'll just say "oh, sorry about that, I hope you find something else to be excited about." They just don't seem to care. It's that reason that I don't use real money in league, just ip. I implore you, if you're afraid of riot changing your favorite's personality, or if they've already done it, don't use rp. Vote with your wallet.

That's all I wanted to say. I will try to respond to any questions and hopefully I can get another rioter here to have a discussion on it. Thank you for thanking the time to read this post.

94 Comments

Warlord Dienekes8 votes

Ahh Talos. Always good to see someone who still shares my hatred of the new Targon lore and willing to post about it.

Talos of Altmora5 votes

Same here, It's always nice to see you post.

Headbiter10 votes

Probably not quite as welcome here but after finally having dragged myself through all the new lore pages, with Leona in fact being the last, I can understand the despise only too well.

What worries me is that even if we remove all issues based on personal taste (Leona's change in personality, while infuriating to fans of the original, can still work on its own terms), there is still a shit load of issues on a pure craftmanship-level, beginning with the reverse of the content-to-text ratio _(the old lore gave us MORE INFORMATION with LESS TEXT) _going on with tired, old and outright lazy tropes (lucky that the elder who JUST HAPPENED to pass by that fight and that he just HAPPENED to know a vague, non-descript.....sigh prophecy - who made that, when, where and why does apparently no one but the elder know/care about it?) and ending with absolutely weird world building (so the punishment of a convicted heretic under the Rakkor is that the convict has to enter a death match against the son of the one who exposed him? Oo).

Which wouldn't be too much of an issue, mistakes are made and especially younger writers stumble into easy traps - except that Riot's writing staff is supposed to be at least led by experienced, seasoned writers. But then you remember how especially Jaredan dismisses such criticisms or even outright ignores them and keeps going on about the insanely high standards for his writing staff and that they got BETTER with time (last time I checked, needing MORE lines in order to convey LESS information was a rather objective sign of comparably POOR abilities).

That is what makes me fear for any future lore: A clear overabundance of self-confidence paired with a number of PROVABLY amateurish and recurring writing mistakes.

Mistakes can be corrected, but only if you realize and accept them as such.

Talos of Altmora4 votes

Don't worry about it, your a lot better at criticizing the writing than I am. Besides, we both are here with the same hope; that lol can improve as long as they learn from their mistakes. I just take more offense to unnecessary character changes (because I feel I'm bette from that point of view).

Anyways, I'm glad to see you here to. Hopefully a rioter will actually response to you, because you are an excellent critic.

Headbiter2 votes

Thanks for the kind words.

And while I indeed would love to have a Rioter have an actually HONEST conversation - in contrast to the repeated pseudo-polite apology pieces - I sincerely don't mind even if I'd land on some sort of blacklist at Riot, as long as SOMEONE gets through to them.

Because as I pointed out at several occasions, even if we ignore personal taste, there are just glaring issues in the writing itself that do not warrant the level of confidence that is displayed here.

Ghostagram4 votes

Heh, at times I do wonder if Riot's (lore) development team has gotten too tightly knit and become an echo chamber of sorts. This'll sound paranoid but when one Rioter on here mentioned that they're looking for staff who aren't just good writers, but also "good Rioters" my first thought was "what, you mean yes-men who'll agree with anything?"

Yeah, I know it's not what s/he meant, but in some ways the new lore reminds me of Star Wars Episodes 1-3 plus the remasters. Not enough dissenting voices to George Lucas' antics during development and we got ourselves three mediocre movies plus Jar Jar (Olaf in Shadow and Fortune, lol) and Greedo shooting first instead of Han Solo being a badass (Diana getting moon-controlled instead of being a force of reckoning).

The writing has me confused because to me it comes off as... um, rather amateur level. Yet they have at least one experienced writer on the team (though I haven't actually checked any credentials), so what in the world is going on? Are the writers just not all that into it, but despite everything their work gets OKed with no criticism? Is there a lack of experienced editors on staff? What? "Here's my first draft on Aurelion Sol, what do you think?" "PERFECT. Don't change a thing." "What? Are you sure?" "Oh yeah, this is awesome. You're awesome. We're all awesome." "Okay."

Headbiter5 votes

Quite frankly, I don't know how much of that can be reasonably chalked up to paranoia.

The implication here isn't that Riot intentionally builds up a cult-like environment, were every voice of dissent is threatened. But what I CAN see shining through in many aspects of the company's behaviour is this dreaded focus on "positivity" that is so omnipresent especially in modern western companies, particularly those heavily entrenched in social media - a description that fits Riot, among others, to a T.

And it's an easy sell, right? I mean, who would have anything against positivity? It's something utterly positive, right? It's even in the name, so it must be good, right...right? Enter the infamous saying of "too much of anything can make you sick".

I genuinely believe that within Riot, just as it can be reasonably suspected with many other contemporary companies that went down a rather....unfortunate road to say the least (the point I'm trying to make ends at 1:27 but you're more than advised to watch the entirety and realize how little has changed in 6 years) there is this philosophy of permanent and almost obligatory POSITIVE support, which at this point might have swollen to such an obscene degree that any form of ACTUAL criticism is considered to constitute negativity and therefore not uttered at all for the fear of offending the dear co-workers.

Which would explain - among other things - why Riot decided after 6 years to elevate their MOBA to a LIFE-STYLE (!) during a time when the actual game, between the lack of BASIC comfort-functions (replay-function anyone?), fewer regular game modes than ever and the n^x-th rework of their basic game mode in less than two years, resembles less a pristine prestige-project to be carried into a golden future but more a moldy mansion that barely survived some medieval sieges. So basically the airport in Berlin, Germany. So while I can see your George Lucas-comparison (which I myself like to employ more often than I probably should) and absolutely agree with the general statement, Lucas was not opposed due to reasons of fear and respect. At Riot, I'm afraid, it's more of an issue that dissent is considered to be synonymous with loathing...or to use the common trend-words: "salt" and "toxicity".

The problem is, that once you start to judge arguments based on their presentation instead of their merit, you're bound to fuck up your own work.

The Whamboozler2 votes

^ This. I mean, look at the game itself. Any whiff of "I don't think so-and-so is very good/balanced/well-designed" leads to outcries of "salt" and "stop crying" from pretty much everyone. I got flamed a few games back because I mentioned at the start of one that I didn't like the new Kennen splash art. The conversation went about like this...

"Ugh, the new kennen art looks awful. I miss the old one." "OMG, are you going to cry all game?" "I said one thing, and minions haven't even spawned yet." "Cry more"

Then I muted them, but judging from the post-game report I got... he was REALLY salty. It wasn't even the kennen player!

The game and the people who play it are in this weird funk where saying anything other than "gg" or the like is immediately taken as negativity and dismissed, and it wouldn't shock me if Riot as a whole feels the same way. They ignore fans so often that I imagine someone sitting in an office just shrugging and saying "Haters gonna hate" anytime he sees a post not praising the current direction of whatever the company has done. "We're making mad cheddar, so everything is perfect"... or "The fans don't know what they want, look at these numbers!". This leads to them disregarding those voices of protest and tweaking the game for the people who applaud their every decision... which means they're mostly pushing off the opinions of the long-time fans who have spent years with the game or even joined up when it wasn't the giant monster of a game it is now.

But the new kids are playing and Riot is still in the green, so they don't need to listen to what people say. As long as they make money and they can find someone or another telling them "I like the new champ/queue/skin/lore" they tell themselves it's all fine. The people who liked the old lore? Outdated and disregarded entirely. The people who dislike the new reworks? Toxic, negative people who don't understand that the champ they've played for thousands of games is "totally better now". You don't want to play your favorite champ anymore? Something must be wrong with you, because Jimmy the new level 30 just put up a post about how he's making the newly reworked champ his new main! I'm sure once they're nerfed back to being balanced, Jimmy will stick around. GOD we're good at making games!

Ghostagram2 votes

What's got me slightly concerned about such developments is that often they seem to manifest towards the decline of whatever group or organization they permeate. The folks who got the ball rolling and kept it going begin to leave, handing the mantle down to whoever happens to be the runner up, and at some point or other people who aren't very good at running the show, are put in charge of running the show.

They don't do what they do to be malicious (mostly). Perhaps in different circumstances they'd even be good in their new role. But the landscape's changed, they're surrounded by people who are a little too like-minded and all too eager to accept their ideas, or perhaps are too apathetic to oppose them. It's become the aforementioned echo chamber, where internal ideas are lauded and dissenting opinions from outside are drowned out, so no amount of criticism by the consumers is actually taken on board. They're sorry you feel that way, they hope their other stuff will be more to your liking.

But given the track record, the other stuff won't be to your liking. Eventually people will give up on trying to improve the product through criticism and leave. The only consumers left giving feedback will be the ones who like it, thus extending the echo chamber to the consumer base. Unfortunately, chances are these people won't be enough to keep the wheels turning, and the group/organization will probably dwindle into nothingness.

I doubt LoL itself is on the decline, though. Its lore department, maybe. Which wouldn't be surprising, since lore isn't the selling point of the game. Perhaps at some point the higher-ups will decide to pull the plug altogether and the only new "lore" we'll ever see are vague 3-sentence bios on every new champion's page.

What I personally find saddest, is that if that happens at this point, I won't care.

Headbiter2 votes

What I personally find saddest, is that if that happens at this point, I won't care.

Quite so. Another side-effect of that whole "positivity"-approach is that people think that a negative or even aggressive response to writings is the worst possible reaction, which is such a short-sighted stance. Angry people might not agree with the current course of action, but they still are invested in your product.

The worst reaction is portrayed by you and - meanwhile - me. We don't care anymore. Granted, I can only speak for myself, but ever since Jaredan confirmed to me personally that NOTHING in the game, neither the Rift, nor the fights, nor the champions' representation, has any connection to the setting or lore nor will it ever impact them in any way, my interest in the actual game is gone.

Because if the lore and therefore the emotional attachment to the characters and the Rift is gone, all that's left is an utterly mediocre MOBA-game, plagued by the same issues as any other MOBA but furthermore lacking basic comfort functions that should be bloody standard for any modern competitive game, offering little to no innovative features in comparison to the competition and craps out in terms of functionality as well.

Meanwhile, I have no doubt anymore, that Riot by now consists of the same kind of self-deluding dunces that gave us "This is not a time travel-addon", "Button -> Awesome", "Destiny is Destiny" and...well, Hideo Kojima. That has been further confirmed to me after seeing and experiencing Jaredan's "Dodge the questions"-marathon ask.fm-page.

And even if, against all expectations, the new lore should indeed turn out to be as mindshatteringly awesome as Jaredan and his "top tier writing staff", as he likes to overhype them so regularly, claim it to be, thanks to Riot's continued efforts to distance the game as far as possible from its story and setting, I can still consume that on their poorly designed web site, with no need for even just the game client being installed on my hard drive.

In fact, that's where all the juicy story-bits will be, since Riot has repeatedly explained how they don't want to have the big bios in the client, because it "might confuse people".....who click on the lore button to read a character's lore. And I thought pot was illegal in the states.

And yes, I could theoretically go for the League Factions mod but CupcakeTrap, as far as I know, adheres to whatever Riot spits out and tries to adapt it to the IoW-setting which means that in the long-run, he and his project will get utterly hamstringed by Riot's "put the lore in camps"-approach until it will have no more legs to stand on.

And that is why I answered so late: After letting my latest experiences with this company sink in and reflecting on the changes made to both the lore and the actual GAME, then applying my supernatural powers of pattern recognition on those observations, then trying and failing to actually FORCE myself to find anything positive in the current direction, I can say with relative certainty that I'm done with LoL.

Anything Lore-related won't require me to play the game anymore, any potential cravings for playing MOBA I can now, in good conscious, satisfy with DOTA 2 or Smite and anything creative I might do with the (now former) LoL-lore will be private and something in relation to friends outside of the game, thus headcanon will rule supreme.

So...in the name of positivity, I guess I can say thank you Riot for removing anything that attached me to your product in the first place.

To the rest of you I can just wish the best of luck in your struggle. In the unlikely event someone wants to maintain contact, find me on twatter, same handle.

InHaruhiWeTrust7 votes

"it was heavily implied that Diana had a crush on her, that they knew each other, that they loved each other." sorry but fanart is not cannon lol the community will ship anyone together that are friends especially if they are the same sex(ie, taric/ezreal, vi/cait, diana/leona, nami/mf off the top of my head). that being said i totaly agree. Diana was my favorite champ in league and they killed her character that i loved so much. i really like seeing posts like this showing that other people care about these characters like i do, but unfortunately riot doesn't care. the most you can hope for is for a rioter to comment and say that they won't change anything.

Talos of Altmora2 votes

I know, but ironStylus (their designer) said those were their plans. (Besides, I much prefer Leona x Pantheon because i'm a sucker for the childhood friend romance) They were never canon, but he out right told us to expect it.

And I know about that last part. I like their character, but they have the full right to change them into completely different people. Of course, that doesn't mean we have to like it now does it?

InHaruhiWeTrust6 votes

"but ironStylus (their designer) said those were their plans." you have a link? i was a fan of pantheonxleona too because it made sense. "they have the full right to change them into completely different people. Of course, that doesn't mean we have to like it now does it?" of course they do, but no self respecting artist would. if even the artist doesn't care enough about a character to be faithful to who that character is then why should we? why should we care about any character that they make in future if they just treat their characters like damn dry erase board that they can add or remove anything about them simply because they feel like it?

Headbiter4 votes

Couldn't agree more.

Also, no matter who you are or what you're writing on, a rewrite of a long-established character will ALWAYS garner...controversy, to say the least, so it's a simple matter of common sense to avoid that unless absolutely necessary for your plot. And there is literally NOTHING in the new setup, neither in what has happened nor in what was hinted at/could occur in the future, that couldn't have been done just as well with the old personalities of Leona and Diana.

With Pantheon and Taric I can at least see why they would want to go into a different direction, though Pantheon in particular still makes me shake my head.

Xulsigae6 votes

Karma, Trundle, Poppy, Pantheon, Leona...it's a bit irksome. Sion is the best so far.

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

{quoted}

Karma, Trundle, Poppy, Pantheon, Leona...it's a bit irksome.

To give credit where credit is due, I actually do like changed Tarric more than old Tarric. But I agree with all the ones you've listed.

And part of that is the terms celestial space empire never appears. And the possession was portrayed as just a spirit talking to Tarric and giving him a goal rather than taking over like what happens to Atreus, Diana, and Leona.

Xulsigae3 votes

Taric I'm neutral about.

James Stone5 votes

I agree with you on everything you said. Linda/New!Leona's character is an abomination when you consider it's based on an older one, this new lore REEKS of the kind of edgy grimdarkness that requires a very specific story or a particularly talented writer not to come of as a depressed teenager's story pitch, and the lore team's continual disrespect for the work of their predecessors, almost reaching the point of disgustingly insulting, is a pity to see.

But what I want to know, above all else, is this. Where the fuck is the galactic empire spoken in Aurelion Sol's lore? Targon is supposed to be the epicenter of a fucking interstellar Dominium, an Empire so powerful not only have they conquered multiple planets, they have powerful enough magic to ENSLAVE THE CREATOR OF MOST OF THE KNOWN STELLAR BODIES IN THE UNIVERSE to do their bidding to fight the Void, with which they are apparently having a multi-planeted war with.

I just have so many questions, and just thinking about it gives me headaches. How the fuck does Runeterra manage to stay goddamned alive if most their troops have only swords, shields, bows and magic when fighting something that gives an interstellar empire and a Cosmic Nigh-Immortal Old-as-the-Universe celestial dragon a run for their money? Why do the Aspects, whatever the fuck they are and whatever their hierarchy within the Targonian Empire is, need the people of Mount Targon in particular to possess? I assume an Interstellar Empire needs spaceships, so where are they? Does the Yordle Mothership have anything to do with it. And, more important, why should I give a single solitary shit about anything else happening in this world, considering even Aurelion Fucking Sol dismissed the supposed major Shurimian event and the Sun Disk explosion as primitive child's play? Every story that they publish that's not this could be about a powerful interstellar Empire fighting alongside a Cosmic Dragon against a the Void in an all out multi-planetary war. After setting the scales so high, I'll feel massively cheated every time the lore team pulls me away from this premise to talk about all the ways Jhin kills a few pricks, or how Graves really likes his shotgun.

Headbiter2 votes

Oh don't even get me started on Aurelion Sol...

So you don't like the Targonians? Might I suggest throwing a sun at them?

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

Ok, couple things.

First: where the hell was it implied in actual lore that Diana and Leona had a thing? That was purely fan speculation, and Riot ran with the joke, just like the whole Ezreal and Taric thing (which is completely denied because Lux and Ezreal have a thing)

Second: they changed Leona to be more of a fighter because that's what she is. In game, you don't hesitate to dive straight into the enemy, lock them all down with massive beam of light from the freaken sun -- old lore Leona didn't show that at all.

Talos of Altmora3 votes

Ironstylus talked about it, that that was the type of relationship they were supposed to have. He may not be a writer, but that was what he was implying and what we all expected.

Second, while that is true, I have played games were I saved my carry through my CC, keeping the enemy unable to attack him while they wailed on me. It's a matter of playstyle. She's was more than capable of doing both.

ModWulf Helhammer5 votes

.....that's still the same meaning. Even though you saved someone, you still did it by crashing into the enemy and smashing them upside the skull (like in her color story in the new lore).

The old lore Leona imbodied a pacifist, something that in game Leona didn't show in the slightest. Even the emote quotes, which are a way to move the lore into the game, showed that she was a fighter:

I broke a nail! Good thing it wasn't mine!

or

Next time, try to leave a dent!

There was a disjunct between the two portrayals of Leona, and the needed to fix it. They went with the version that was locked in stone already, the gameplay, and fit her story to how she acted their

Talos of Altmora6 votes

No, Trust me, support Leona is more about defense than offense friend. She was raised by a warrior tribe, she in completely capable of fight. Also there is a deference between a protector and a pacifist. She will protect you, and if she has to fight off and possibly kill an emey in oder to save her allies, she will do it. a pacifist will not fight, a protector will fight to protect.

Besides, it was her philosophy that strength was to protect the weak, that's why she didn't go through the rite of Kor (i'd read her judgment f I were you) Linda however, is nothing like that, she is the exact opposite of everything Leona ever stood for.

Ravenhale3 votes

I've read her judgment. I understand the slight difference between this Leona and the former incarnation. Most of the issue lies in there being no Rite of Kor for new Leona to protest. When she is called out for sparing a potential threat to the village, she is being called out for a crime. This isn't a Ritual. This is defending her decision to spare something she felt had been no harm to the village. Explain to me how Leona protests a Death Sentence. Explain to me how her allowing herself to die would prove anything.

Old Leona was faced in a Death Rite against someone she could easily best. It would have been nice if New Leona had been accused of such a thing by a similar opponent. Then we may have had a similar issue where she would argue her point was proven with her victory. But the writers felt like forcing her into a battle against an unyielding opponent that would never admit defeat or error in his accusation.

I think you have an issue understanding how layered a character's personality can be. You're way too black and white if you honestly think this new Leona is a polar opposite of her former self.

Talos of Altmora4 votes

"Explain to me how Leona protests a Death Sentence. Explain to me how her allowing herself to die would prove anything." It would acknowledge that she knows what she did was wrong in the tribe's eyes and that she accepts it (like in her old lore) Moreover, it would show she wasn't going to kill member of the tribe!

I don't mind gray or layered characters, I mind making a character who was as compassionate as Braun and Soraka into an inquisitor who murders people for believing something different than what she does. Her old lore had depth, she was more than a goody-two-shoes. Linda is the complete opposite of Leona, she will not protect you, you no good heretic! She doesn't give anyone hope, only dread. If she was the Leona in A New Dawn, then it's a real shame Darius didn't kill her, he would have done the world a favor.

Remember, this is my opinion. You can disagree with me all I want, but unless you can make a better argument, you're not going to make me change my mind.

Ravenhale3 votes

No, it would acknowledge she was a criminal. It would acknowledge she was a heretic. It would acknowledge she was a traitor.

Defying the Rite of Kor actually meant something. The Rite of Kor is founded in the belief of survival of the fittest. By besting her opponent, she had already proven herself as the better. Forcing her elders into a position of hypocrisy actually means something. People would remember a strong figure that met all the requirements but defied the letter of the law. It could very well destroy the validity of the Rite of Kor.

Accepting punishment for a crime she did not believe was a crime would prove nothing. It does nothing. She dies without honor. A corpse not fit to be buried. We are not informed of any possible repercussions the outcome would bring to her family. Perhaps her family would be exiled.

These are very different circumstances.

I sense we are simply starting things differently. I start with the assumption that this is old Leona being raised in different circumstances. I'm not looking for information to reassure she is the same character.

The only people Leona killed in her lore were the marauders. She was mentioned as the finest warrior, but there was no statement of her using this force to purge heresy. If you wish to reinvent her as an inquisitor, that's your decision. The only instance where heresy even came into play was the encounter with Diana. As far as that is concerned, Leona behaved very passive aggressive for an "inquisitor", which only further cements my case that purging heretics was not a routine practice for Leona. It was likely the first time she had ever been thrust into that position. And her hesitation resulted in the deaths of the Solari elders.

So go ahead and hate her if that's what you want to do. There are plenty of people that give up on someone the moment something happens to threaten the unwanted pedestals given unto them.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

{quoted}

No, it would acknowledge she was a criminal. It would acknowledge she was a heretic. It would acknowledge she was a traitor.

Defying the Rite of Kor actually meant something. The Rite of Kor is founded in the belief of survival of the fittest. By besting her opponent, she had already proven herself as the better. Forcing her elders into a position of hypocrisy actually means something. People would remember a strong figure that met all the requirements but defied the letter of the law. It could very well destroy the validity of the Rite of Kor.

Accepting punishment for a crime she did not believe was a crime would prove nothing. It does nothing. She dies without honor. A corpse not fit to be buried. We are not informed of any possible repercussions the outcome would bring to her family. Perhaps her family would be exiled.

These are very different circumstances.

I sense we are simply starting things differently. I start with the assumption that this is old Leona being raised in different circumstances. I'm not looking for information to reassure she is the same character.

The only people Leona killed in her lore were the marauders. She was mentioned as the finest warrior, but there was no statement of her using this force to purge heresy. If you wish to reinvent her as an inquisitor, that's your decision. The only instance where heresy even came into play was the encounter with Diana. As far as that is concerned, Leona behaved very passive aggressive for an "inquisitor", which only further cements my case that purging heretics was not a routine practice for Leona. It was likely the first time she had ever been thrust into that position. And her hesitation resulted in the deaths of the Solari elders.

So go ahead and hate her if that's what you want to do. There are plenty of people that give up on someone the moment something happens to threaten the unwanted pedestals given unto them.

Hmm, in the lore:

Leona brought Diana in under armed guard, for her warrior instinct sensed something awry in the girl’s demeanor. Presented to the elders, Diana spoke of the Lunari, an ancient and proscribed faith that venerated the moon, and how all the truths the Solari clung to were incomplete. She described a realm beyond the mountaintop, a place where the sun and moon were not enemies, where new truths could show them fresh ways to look at the world. Leona felt her anger build with every word Diana spoke, and when the elders rejected her words and named her a blasphemer, Leona knew it would be her blade that ended the heretic’s life.

That's before Diana kills anyone. Leona is just listening and fantasizing about killing Diana. There was no second guessing, there was no self-doubt or hesitation. She was getting angry and wanted to kill Diana for talking.

Then there's the actual murders which you say were caused because she hesitates. But she doesn't.

Leona saw Diana’s incredulous fury at the elders’ denial, but before she could react, the white-haired girl hurled herself forward. Blinding light exploded from Diana’s outstretched hands, and orbs of silver fire burned the elders to dust in the blink of an eye. White flames surged in a hurricane of cold lightning and blasted Leona from the chamber. When she regained consciousness, she found Diana gone and the Solari leaderless.

The elders die not because Leona hesitated, but because Diana already had super powers on her and killed everyone (and beat her) before she could even react.

She doesn't show any qualms about killing the heretic before the murders and nothing changed about it afterwards. If they were trying to show Leona as still a good person who was regretfully being forced to do something she didn't want to do with the heretics, or that this was a unique situation, they really failed to show that.

Ravenhale2 votes

There's no fantasizing about killing Diana. She understood her position and duty would require her to kill Diana. You don't fantasize about doing the dishes when you see the sink full.

She was angry with every word Diana spoke, but the anger isn't specifically tied to content. It could be circumstance. It could be indecision and frustration. It could be everything.

Leona hesitated. What's the point of waiting for official condemnation if she's so hot headed and bloodthirsty? She had plenty of opportunity to behead Diana in mid sentence. She even sensed something wasn't right, but still brought Diana to the elders. At a certain point, you're just going to have to concede that Leona had no idea what she was supposed to do here.

Preserving Leona's identity in these circumstances is effortless. You just have to want to do it.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

She follows her orders, she is not judge, jury, and executioner of the Solari. She's just the executioner. Waiting for the the elder's word before she killed Diana is doing her job. Only she didn't react fast enough. That's literally what it says in the background.

If you want to add that she hesitated, that she was second guessing whether or not she should kill Diana, by all means go ahead. I like adding that Atreus told the Pantheon Aspect to fuck off and go enslave someone else.

Unfortunately, neither your nor my addition were ever actually in the written background, and the written background is the actual character. Not your interpretation, not my interpretation.

Ravenhale2 votes

And there's nothing that suggests she was a routine executioner. Knowing she would be required to execute Diana does not translate to experience. Sure, my addition may not be written but neither is this large populace of heretics Leona has been running around slaying in the name of the Solari. Why add unfavorable things to a character's story unless you are hell bent on hating them?

I will admit that I despise what they did to Atreus/Pantheon. I could fix it, but that takes more effort and liberties than what I've done with Leona and Diana.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

{quoted}

And there's nothing that suggests she was a routine executioner. Knowing she would be required to execute Diana does not translate to experience. Sure, my addition may not be written but neither is this large populace of heretics Leona has been running around slaying in the name of the Solari. Why add unfavorable things to a character's story unless you are hell bent on hating them?

I will admit that I despise what they did to Atreus/Pantheon. I could fix it, but that takes more effort and liberties than what I've done with Leona and Diana.

I didn't say it was routine. I said she was the executioner, not how common that role was. Because, she was the executioner. She thought of it as her task to kill the heretic and was waiting until she was given the orders by the elders to do so. That's exactly what an executioner does. That's what she was going to do. This may have been her very first this may have been her thousandth, the text does not say and we cannot know. It does say she was going to be Diana's executioner though. Which is my point.

Here's the information that Riot provided us is:

Leona was a pretty nice girl among the Rakkor, she helped a monster even though she wasn't supposed to. She fought Atreus because of said monster savings, but an old guy from the Solari stopped the fight because he had a prophecy or something. He also liked that she was merciful to the monster. Solari Elder takes Leona to live with them.

Time Skip.

The Solari, despite liking that she was merciful to that one monster boy are now suddenly not particularly merciful. Leona is the leader of Solari bodyguard/army/warriors/thing. We do not know what their entire role is. She brings Diana to the Elders Diana starts talking about the moon Leona really hates this and gets angry and gets ready to kill Diana as soon as ordered Diana acts faster than Leona and kills all the Elders, knocks Leona out and runs away. Leona chases after Diana. Leona climbs Targon searching for Diana. Meets the monster boy again. Who does something to her. Leona gets possessed by the Targonian space parasite sun thing that we don't know what it is exactly it's really vague but it's somehow tied to Sol and the people that enslaved him, maybe, it's really weird. After possession Leona no longer wants vengeance on Diana for killing the people who she worked for and raised her. Now she wants to talk.

That's it. Anything further you or I add to the text is our interpretations, not what Riot wrote. In what Riot wrote, she was going to be an executioner for the Elders, and was angry enough to kill over someone who didn't share her religious beliefs. Which is why people who liked Old!Leona find this new one so different. We can try to smooth over the changes by re-writing passages in our heads (and actually it would be really easy to do so, by actually having Leona hesitate when she's ordered to kill Diana, and not getting angry and wanting to kill her when she was listening to Diana's speech. All it would take to get them to be enemies is Diana killing the Elders anyway, getting angry at that is a completely normal and natural response. There, that's like 3 or so sentences changed tops, and we'd get a character within spitting distance of old!Leona, then my only problem would just be my continued hatred of the Aspects and Space Targonians as concepts, which I unfortunately can't do anything with to make them seem less dumb).

Ravenhale2 votes

Leona really hates this and gets angry and gets ready to kill Diana as soon as ordered

You could also paraphrase this as

Leona gets very angry while Diana speaks and understands she will be ordered to kill Diana for heresy

The very act of paraphrasing is interpretation.

I understand the protest is over the fact that she was willing to be an executioner. There is just so much lost in the generalization of this ordeal. We don't get line by line dialogue. We don't get internalized thoughts. I feel like I'm trying to decipher a passage from a history book. There is barely enough information to know what happened without really knowing exactly how or why it happened.

Quick Edit: I honestly can't think of a reason why Leona wouldn't be angry at Diana for speaking such nonsense. But being angry does not translate to murderous intent. We don't have to change how she felt about Diana's words to smooth things over.

Ravenhale2 votes

No. That's a mere fact. You're recoloring a fact to suit your agenda.

If you want murderous intent, I'll rewrite it for you.

Leona felt her anger build with every word Diana spoke, and when the elders rejected her words and named her a blasphemer, Leona seized the hilt of her blade, eagerly waiting for the order to end this heretic's life.

Major difference.

Talos of Altmora2 votes

Um, no, that is my interpretation of the words. And from were I'm standing, they mean the exact same thing.

Linda, seeing that his heretic dares to think differently from the Solari, must be executed. She knows she will be given the order to, and is glad that her anger will final be unleashed when she smites her down.

The words say what they say, but interpretation is all up to chance. And I'd say my odds are closer.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

Except we know very well what Leona was thinking before she was going to kill Diana. It wasn't sadness of what she was being forced to do. It wasn't cold acceptance that she had a job to do. It was anger. Anger that was directed at Diana. Sure, we don't get the exact line of reasoning, but it's Riots job to express what they want to express through their medium. And since they felt the need to point out that Leona knew she was going to kill Diana, knew that the elders were going to order it, and the best you can come up with is maybe Leona felt bad about it (something that is nowhere in the text) then yes Leona comes across in a very negative light.

Of course, she could defy her orders to kill an innocent, you know, like she does in her old lore. But in this that never is even brought up as a possibility, Leona's thoughts were in preparation for going to kill Diana for speaking heresies and she was perfectly fine being Diana's executioner. That's what's in the background. There really isn't all that lost in generalization because these are not real people, these are characters. It is the authors job to present to us to fuel our interpretation of what is going through their head and their true motivation. And the author chose to show us that Leona was angry and thinking about killing Diana before the order to do so was even said.

Ravenhale2 votes

They don't mean the same thing. My example is clear and concise. Riot's description is flat facts and loaded with bad run-on sentences. I don't know if the intent was to be vague or the writer doesn't know how to color prose. I simply see the result as something easily manipulated to whatever the reader desires.

If you're trying to say your interpretation is closer to the intent of the writer, then you are starting with the premise that the writer either knew nothing about Leona or did not like the former Leona. This certainly is a possibility. I'd argue such a premise is a bit cynical and pessimistic, but I won't say it's entirely unfounded. I will say it is an unhealthy practice to always assume the worst. Your decision. Your life.

Ravenhale2 votes

The author states Leona was angry and that she understood she would kill Diana. Both are facts. Seriously look at the sentence. The only coloring is "every". The rest of the sentence is "See Jane Run". There's nothing embellishing the facts.

I'm sure you've been angry before and did not feel the urge to kill the source of your anger. And if you were suddenly informed that you had permission to kill someone that upset you, would you immediately do it? And people want to believe Leona will gladly murder someone based on her being angry and because she was going to be granted permission? Where is the empathy? If you wouldn't do it, why believe she will?

I will agree that the author did not provide a clear and concise explanation of how the event unfolded. I don't know if that was intentional or bad writing. I'm thinking both, since reading that piece makes me feel so much better about my own work.

Headbiter3 votes

No. That's a mere fact. You're recoloring a fact to suit your agenda.

If you want murderous intent, I'll rewrite it for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWohBmoAwAw (poor quality, I know, what can you do?)

If they didn't want to imply that it was Leona's intend/hope to kill the heretic, why in the blazes would they link her rising anger AND that thought in one sentence like this: "Leona felt her anger build with every word Diana spoke, and when the elders rejected her words and named her a blasphemer, Leona knew it would be her blade that ended the heretic’s life."

Everything from the sentence structure to the choice of words (Diana being referred to as "the heretic", the formulation of "it would be her blade") ABSOLUTELY implies a desire on Leona's part, further enforced by her IMMEDIATE desire to not only kill but "destroy" Diana, after she recovered, immediately chasing after someone with no backup, no plan, no consideration for maintaining order in the wake of the elders' death.

To bring an example with a healthy distance to the setting, take this passage I just made up:

"Marcus was no longer willing to tolerate the intruder's behaviour and knew that the wanderer would not see the light of morning again."

Now, TECHNICALLY that could mean a lot of things. Maybe "Marcus" has the ability to see the future or is a doctor on the level of Dr. House and thus he literally KNEW that the "wanderer" would die this night.

Maybe the first part of the sentence means that Marcus will leave the place they're in and the wanderer will somehow go blind before the next morning and the two events, while being connected by the sentence and its structure have NOTHING to do with each other. The author just felt silly.

But somethign tells me that you any anyone else who read that line, immediately made the -quite logical - assumption that Marcus would AT LEAST be somewhat involved into the anything but natural death of the wanderer. Also, you more than likely assumed that "the intruder" and "the wanderer" refer to the same person, right? From the way the sentence is written, it's just the most reasonable thing to assume.

So yeah, just as is said in the Scrubs-clip at the beginning: If you hear hoofbeats, you just go ahead and think horsies, not zebras.

Ravenhale2 votes

Your sentence merely enforces the point. It does not imply rage. Marcus could be a crime syndicate boss that merely needs a nuisance disposed of. He could be a desperate, wanted criminal that can't afford any attachment to this person and doesn't want to leave a witness. I can reinvent Marcus dozens of times with a different personality and motive and still reach the same conclusion without invalidating your sentence.

At least your sentence allows a "because of this, therefore I will" pattern. Riot's sentence however has a complete disconnect. It's not because Leona is angry, Diana will die. The elders involvement was inserted and its only because of their judgment that we will have an end result. This lessens the importance of Leona's anger in the matter, as it clearly was not the deciding factor.

You can't even argue 2+2 = 4 here. Its pretty obvious that the decision of heresy and execution matters was entirely in the hands of the elders. This is a matter of 0 + 4 = 4. Leona's feelings are irrelevant in this outcome because of the way it is presented. The only reason why its even mentioned is so you don't have an indifferent Leona standing around in her own story.

Headbiter7 votes

The old lore Leona imbodied a pacifist

Okay, can we please bury that made up nonsense? It was NEVER even remotely implied that Leona was a pacifist. A pacifist abhors violence and will rather put him/herself through pain and suffering before doing (physical) harm to others.

In ALL incarnations of Leona's lore was it made very clear that she's a capable fighter, a powerful warrior of the Rakkorans and more than capable of battling against even the most powerful of her peers. What she didn't do was to glorify the act of killing. That. is. all. Literally, all she did, was stand against the undeniably bloodthirsty philosophy of her people but she NEVER showed to have any issue with fighting or even killing, for that matter, as long as it was a last resort.

By your logic, every fictional character who refuses to actively kill would be a pacifist. Like Batman.

Warlord Dienekes5 votes

{quoted}

Ok, couple things.

First: where the hell was it implied in actual lore that Diana and Leona had a thing? That was purely fan speculation, and Riot ran with the joke, just like the whole Ezreal and Taric thing (which is completely denied because Lux and Ezreal have a thing)

Second: they changed Leona to be more of a fighter because that's what she is. In game, you don't hesitate to dive straight into the enemy, lock them all down with massive beam of light from the freaken sun -- old lore Leona didn't show that at all.

The old!lore Leona was literally raised by Spartans and she was very much willing to kill to defend people in her Judgment. She was basically the ultimate bodyguard + sun magic.

She just never went through a murderous zealot phase, instead her Judgment focused far more on self doubt and worry if she was making the right decisions. Which you can't really do when you are literally infused with an Aspect that grants you all knowledge of the universe, so it makes sense they changed it. I just, personally of course, find a self doubting bodyguard a more interesting premise than someone who was literally possessed by aliens. But then, I think the whole Targonian space empire was a horrible decision.

Headbiter4 votes

By the way, I would LOVE to have some sort of discussion table between actual fans of the lore and some of Riot's writing staff. You know, having someone from the community represent the critical thoughts of the community and debate/formulate them in a concise manner (in contrast to the moshpit that is twitch-chat/reddit).

Also, with actually critical arguments, not one of those press-events we can see at some conventions and in politics, where the "Do you think you do good work?" is considered a "daring question."

Warlord Dienekes4 votes

{quoted}

By the way, I would LOVE to have some sort of discussion table between actual fans of the lore and some of Riot's writing staff. You know, having someone from the community represent the critical thoughts of the community and debate/formulate them in a concise manner (in contrast to the moshpit that is twitch-chat/reddit).

Also, with actually critical arguments, not one of those press-events we can see at some conventions and in politics, where the "Do you think you do good work?" is considered a "daring question."

Well Jaredan did say he was going to open an ask.fm (I think I have that right never been to the site myself) to answer questions more directly. And I don't know about you, but I have a few questions lined up for him when it opens. Just make sure to word questions appropriately and don't attack them and hopefully they'll answer. Hopefully.

333lom6 votes

I jumped in here to give all you guys here an upvote, because I too am severely disappointed with the new lore. I don't have time to type a lot now, but we have good arguments why the change of personalities was a very bad thing to do and how the new lore is indeed filled with tropey and illogical events.

When he opens that ask.fm, I'll be there to ask those questions specifically. But as someone else said, it's a very high chance that he'll reply only to those who praise the new lore in spite of everything, and dismiss our questions claiming they did a good job...

Narasimha2 votes

On the most part, I disagree. Old Leona had her charm, but it was also nothing special. She was just a protector. Other than being blessed by the Sun, she wasn't anything special. She didn't have any specific driving forces. She had no real motivations. She was just stuck where she was. New Leona has much more opportunity to grow. She has room to doubt herself, to challenge others, to alter and in turn change others. She feels so much more alive now. Same with Diana. In the old lore, she was locked into the role of 'avenging pscyopathic religious zealot'. Now she has the opportunity to be so much more.

Warlord Dienekes2 votes

This is very interesting to me because I had the exact opposite reaction, especially looking at her Judgment. In Leona's judgment she shows quite a bit of doubt about her actions, she second guesses if her protection of those weaker than her was for her benefit or theirs, she even finds that she is afraid she is relying too much on her sun magic and doesn't know for sure what the sun's will is. Though I do agree that this doesn't come out as strongly in her basic lore.

Which all seems wiped away by new!Leona, how can someone have self doubt when they are literally possessed by their god?

As to nowhere to go with the character, that seems even stranger since she had nearly the same confrontation set up with Diana, only now instead of the two being forced to deal with their problems the Aspects have seemingly erased the problem. That and old Leona also had her problems with the Rakkor that she wanted to change, which is much lessened in this version. The only major addition is how Leona reacts with the whole Targonian space empire. But since I find that whole part of the story rather painfully shoe-horned into champions lores that had no business dealing with it, I find my desire to know more about that problem nonexistent.

Narasimha2 votes

Which all seems wiped away by new!Leona, how can someone have self doubt when they are literally possessed by their god?

She's not possessed to the same extent as Pantheon. From what we can see, at the least, she still retains her personality. This means that while the Aspect can influence her, it cannot truly force her. Which means that she's now vulnerable when her desires conflict with those of the Aspects. A sample scenario. A caravan is being attacked by voidlings from a nearby portal. The voidlings numbers only continue to expand. Leona has two choices: Save the caravan, or close the portal. If she does the former, she won't have the energy to (somehow) close the portal. If she does the latter, the caravan is sacrificed. It would be safe to assume that while Leona might try to save as many as she can, the Aspect would be more interested in shutting off the Voidborn. What would Leona do? Would she trust her own desires, or follow the will of a being far greater than her?

As to nowhere to go with the character, that seems even stranger since she had nearly the same confrontation set up with Diana, only now instead of the two being forced to deal with their problems the Aspects have seemingly erased the problem.

Not at all. The old confrontation was much more limited. Fan based musings aside, there was never any lore indication that Diana wanted to reconcile with Leona. Chances are, their confrontation would have ended bloody and with one of them most likely dead. Now, they're forced to work together. They're forced to partner up against a greater threat. They still don't seem to like each other too much, but theres now room for understanding in their shared conflict.

Warlord Dienekes4 votes

{quoted}

She's not possessed to the same extent as Pantheon. From what we can see, at the least, she still retains her personality. This means that while the Aspect can influence her, it cannot truly force her. Which means that she's now vulnerable when her desires conflict with those of the Aspects. A sample scenario. A caravan is being attacked by voidlings from a nearby portal. The voidlings numbers only continue to expand. Leona has two choices: Save the caravan, or close the portal. If she does the former, she won't have the energy to (somehow) close the portal. If she does the latter, the caravan is sacrificed. It would be safe to assume that while Leona might try to save as many as she can, the Aspect would be more interested in shutting off the Voidborn. What would Leona do? Would she trust her own desires, or follow the will of a being far greater than her?

Possessed not to the same extent, but still an extent. As to if the Aspect can force her, we don't know. Is it holding back because it's nice, or is minor pushing toward the right path the limit of it's power? As to her being vulnerable to the desires of the Aspect, that was always true, just change who she is serving from the Targonian space slavers to the actual Sun. Now personally, I think inner turmoil is much more interesting than being forced through possession. Watching Leona the character grapple with whether she should close a portal or save a caravan is the same question and can just as easily be asked just to a normal character without getting the strange space empire involved. That she can now do an age old moral question but with something in her head that isn't her conscience and thoughts isn't exactly a boon for her character.

Not at all. The old confrontation was much more limited. Fan based musings aside, there was never any lore indication that Diana wanted to reconcile with Leona. Chances are, their confrontation would have ended bloody and with one of them most likely dead. Now, they're forced to work together. They're forced to partner up against a greater threat. They still don't seem to like each other too much, but theres now room for understanding in their shared conflict.

There was nothing to go on about their next confrontation, true. But I do not see how violence is in any way not a natural progression to their story. And it could grow from it. We skipped right past the resolution of a dramatic confrontation that can lead to progress and instead the characters had an outside godly force alter their opinions to suit the story. That's terrible writing.

I'm not against Diana and Leona making up and joining forces. I'm not against Diana and Leona forging a new Solari and Lunari state. I'm against the conflict being brushed aside by space aliens to force that resolution happening now as opposed to naturally developing from their characters and actions.

Headbiter3 votes

She didn't have any specific driving forces. She had no real motivations. She was just stuck where she was.

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh, but between this, "Old Leona was a pacifist" and "There is no difference between old and new Diana" I can't help but wonder whether we're back in the time when reading was a rare and valuable ability.

Leona was a character that was born with talents and abilities that could've gotten her anywhere she wanted within her martial society. She then was willing to die for her beliefs which directly contradicted her culture's values, effectively throwing away the aforementioned status and power she could've attained. She then is chosen by the sun and elevated to the Solari, in the old lore LITERALLY a higher social caste of the Rakkor, and put into a position of - for her - formerly unimaginable martial and political power.

Let me shine that light a bit brigher (hur-durr) on that situation: A rebel willing to die for her cause now belongs to the UPPER ECHELON of the society she wants to change. How in the FUCK, is that "being stuck". She literally found herself in a position to change a century-old society, neck-deep entrenched in conservative ideals and you tell me she's nothing special and she's stuck?! A Song of Ice and Fire starts with three random assholes getting killed in the middle of nowhere but this is a dead end to you?

Same with Diana, she was a well-read, intelligent woman who tried to bring change in a peaceful manner, spending who knows how much time to find undeniable proof for her beliefs in search for acceptance and only turned into, as you put it, a "avenging psychopathic religious zealot" when she was sentenced to death for ACTUALLY BEING SUCCESFUL IN FINDING PROOF. She turned so hateful because even when doing everything right, she was faced with hate and exile, even though all she was looking for was acceptance. My mind is buzzing with the stories I could take this, whether I go down the path of tragedy or redemption and you want to tell me she was "locked"? What the hell?

And her new version? The one that has "the opportunity to be so much more"? In EIGHTEEN butt-fucking paragraphs she was brought up to be a initiate simply because some guys found her and decided to put her in the temple, stumbled upon her first lead by nothing but dumb luck, found the cave because she was literally LEAD there by a vision ex machina, COULDN'T EVEN DRESS HERSELF and ultimately, when it was time to defend herself...she passed out and woke up in a circle of corpses. So let's see...has no discernable skills, didn't do anything worthwhile, too lazy/dumb to dress, no discernable agenda until her ascension and no control over her actions. Yeah, what a rich and endearing...blank slate.

And just to make this clear: NONE of the above statements is made based on baseless assumptions, wishful thinking or some obscure forum/reddit posts, not even the journal of justice. ALL of it can be found right in the official old and new lore, as it still can be found on lol wikia/the Mt. Targon site to this very day.

Narasimha2 votes

Let me shine that light a bit brigher (hur-durr) on that situation: A rebel willing to die for her cause now belongs to the UPPER ECHELON of the society she wants to change. How in the FUCK, is that "being stuck". She literally found herself in a position to change a century-old society, neck-deep entrenched in conservative ideals and you tell me she's nothing special and she's stuck?!

Then tell me. What did she change? Show me once instance, just one, of something the old Leona did that made a difference. Because I can't find anything.

My mind is buzzing with the stories I could take this, whether I go down the path of tragedy or redemption and you want to tell me she was "locked"? What the hell?

Where on earth did you pull redemption from? Theres literally not a single thing in any of her lore or VOs that signify any regret. She's completely consumed with rage, and will burn and blight anything that stands in her way. Nothing else says otherwise.

And her new version? The one that has "the opportunity to be so much more"? In EIGHTEEN butt-fucking paragraphs she was brought up to be a initiate simply because some guys found her and decided to put her in the temple, stumbled upon her first lead by nothing but dumb luck, found the cave because she was literally LEAD there by a vision ex machina, COULDN'T EVEN DRESS HERSELF and ultimately, when it was time to defend herself...she passed out and woke up in a circle of corpses. So let's see...has no discernable skills, didn't do anything worthwhile, too lazy/dumb to dress, no discernable agenda until her ascension and no control over her actions. Yeah, what a rich and endearing...blank slate.

Everyone starts somewhere. I'd be a lot less interested if I heard that Leona was someone who was brought up to be the next Aspect of the Sun, for example. Hell, the very fact that she's so simple before makes her much more compelling. It means she truly has to embrace and work with her new self, even if she's not truly ready.

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