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So... What exactly is Taliyah's beef with Azir again?

Narcissa Black··8 votes·5,561 views

Like, legitimately? Why does she hate him so much? I mean, I get it from the stories standpoint but things aren't adding up to me. It just feels like a contrived character flaw to push for unnecessary conflict for the Shurima storyline.

From what I'm understanding her people, her family, are from Shurima and she's been traveling the world trying to learn to use her powers, hence her history with Ionia and Noxas. But, I'm also sensing a bit of actual historical disconnect, like she doesn't actually know her people's history. The Shurima empire has been gone for a while and Azir just raised it again. She's never met Azir a day in her life and it doesn't seem like she even knows stories of him either. Add to the fact that she just jumps on this bandwagon of hating him because he's so obviously returned with the express purpose of enslaving (or from Taliyah's perspective reenslaving) her people on the word of a few merchants who all but freely admit that they themselves don't know what's going on in Shurima.

I just... I'm confused and disappointed.

36 Comments

Sharjo14 votes

The world knows fuck all about Azir actually abolishing slavery, and the jist of what is remembered about the fall of Shurima is "Cocky emperor decides to Ascend, Shurima is ruined by his traitorous advisor, Nasus and Renekton try to stop Xerath and Renekton has to sacrifice himself."

History was not kind to Azir and right now, very few people know or understand his perspective. Taliyah's PoV is very understandable considering how long it's been since Shurima's fall and how much the history of Shurima has become legend.

WarlockLaw2 votes

Entirely this. Even if she doesn't know of Azir specifically or the details of that ascension ritual, she does know that the old Shuriman Empire enslaved most of the lower class. It appears that Taliyah is concerned that Azir will bring back slavery (only Xerath knows otherwise) and her family will end up enslaved. If the two manage to actually talk it out I don't think Taliyah would be opposed to him, but I expect Azir to act too prideful/arrogant for that to happen quickly and easily or without a fight.

Narcissa Black4 votes

See, there. That last point. If the two manage to talk it out. That's just it for me, why wouldn't they? Taliyah comes cruising in on her rock-cycle, points at Azir all dramatically and demands he not take his people as slaves while he's arguing with Sivir about her taking over the familiar business as said bandit queen crosses her arms and pouts like a rebellious child. Azir just looks over tilts his bird head to the side and asks what the hell she's talking about, and the entire situation is over.

Sharjo5 votes

It's over like that? Not a chance. Azir is a being of unfathomable power. He's no longer human and to Taliyah he's not trustworthy in the least. They wouldn't just reconcile that easily; Azir would have to prove to her he has the best interests of the people of Shurima in mind and that he puts that first. Hell he has to prove that to all of Shurima. Shurima fell because of his hubris in the eyes of the people. That's how history has remembered Azir. He's got a lot of work to do to elevate himself in the eyes of the people, and dispel the fears his form and power will inevitably bring.

The question isn't how are they going to reconcile things, the question is two fold; what is Azir willing to do for Shurima, and what will it take for him to win over the people, including Taliyah?

LordGeovanni2 votes

There is no way to know how trustworthy Taliyah finds him. He did become an ascended one of the Guardians of Shurima a reasonable thing to believe is that if she believes in her Great Weaver its more reasonable to think that she would believe that the Guardians of Shurima are there to protect Shurima. but conflicts with her reasoning of rushing back to Shurima in the first place.

Shurima fell because of his hubris in the eyes of the people.

This is why i have a problem with narrations that take it upon themselves to judge characters. The story itself should be more or less neutral unless from another characters point of view. If everyone In the city of Shurima died when the city fell there is no way for any one out side of the city to know what happened which is why its mysterious that it fell. People take the leading words of the story and assume it should be common knowledge to people around the world of which its in. To this day only Nasus Renekton Xerath and Azir should know what caused the fall or Shurima and for any one outside of that to call it Hubris is poppy cock unless maybe its Aurelion Sol but then again he believes that of all lesser lifeforms. The story if the day of ascension is told by no one in particular unlike the story of the three sisters there should be no outright judgement the story should lead the reader to be the judge in the way that they want the reader to judge.

LordGeovanni3 votes

Yes a soldier peasant girl is gonna walk up to the Emperor Ascended god to talk. ._.

WarlockLaw4 votes

Have you ever seen/read a movie/show/book/etc e where two characters are essentially on the same side, but due to some misunderstanding/miscommunication they believe themselves to be adversaries. Then when they finally confront each other they choose to fight instead of talking because of character flaws/bad writing? Because that's what I'm expecting to happen here

MasqureMan1 votes

{quoted}

Have you ever seen/read a movie/show/book/etc e where two characters are essentially on the same side, but due to some misunderstanding/miscommunication they believe themselves to be adversaries. Then when they finally confront each other they choose to fight instead of talking because of character flaws/bad writing? Because that's what I'm expecting to happen here

Azir is prideful, Taliyah is young. Both are powerful. Not a good combo.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I dont see how anyone survived to say what happened that day beyond it was the Emperor's Ascension Ritual and later on that day when some one reached the city it was destroyed. No one could really know that Azir was betrayed besides Renekton and Nasus well Nasus who was the only one free with the information I don't think he went around regaling people with the tales No one else could even know of Xeraths name its Sketchy to even say Nasus knows it unless Xerath shouts out his own name in battle.

SeargentAnus1 votes

He also killed and conquered a lot of people, so he has that going for him.

OurLestrade3 votes

How would you feel if some ancient emperor rose from the sand and told you to stop your way of life and serve him?

EMeta3 votes

This. Imagine Thomas Jefferson came back and with his army of resurrected agrarian slaves took over Washington and wanted to reinstate slavery and abolish banking. You might have some difficulties going along with his plans.

That said, I would totally watch that as an anime. Who's with me?

OurLestrade4 votes

{quoted}

This. Imagine Thomas Jefferson came back and with his army of resurrected agrarian slaves took over Washington and wanted to reinstate slavery and abolish banking. You might have some difficulties going along with his plans.

That said, I would totally watch that as an anime. Who's with me?

There was that one Japanese game where you play the president in a mech and you fight terrorists or something. That was pretty rad :P

A Superb Villain1 votes

METAL WOLF CHAOS!

RICHAAAAAAAAAAAAARD!

Narcissa Black1 votes

But, I don't really think that's what's going on here. And even it it was she doesn't know that for certain. She'd need to have some sort of reliable source to make that call and she doesn't have that.

EMeta2 votes

I guess Napoleon is probably a better example. If I was from France and heard this guy was back---who had achieved great things and amassed great popularity, but ultimately ruined our country and much of the known world for decades--I would certainly return with a chip on my shoulder.

Brutusness3 votes

Unrelated, but are you a Worm fan?

Narcissa Black1 votes

Yes, I am quite the worm fan.

KotetsuTatsumaki3 votes

Azir revealed that he was freeing Shumian slaves moments before the entire city was obliterated. No one had any time to make historical record of that to be found by those exploring ancient tombs.

Thus there just... isn't enough evidence out there for her that Azir is even a benevolent leader.

Eclipse Leona1 votes

He is/was a good leader.. it's just like everyone states: "It never reached the outside world, so nobody knows about Azir's actual intentions." "there's no evidence left of what's happened." Only Azir, Renekton, Nasus and Xerath (backstabber) know what happened during that time, now years later Azir is back trying to restore the old Shurima, Nasus is looking for Renekton and Renekton went Koo-Koo being tortured by Xerath.

Eclipse Leona2 votes

I'm just gonna laugh at people who assume that Azir is just entirely bad/evil.. he may have enslaved some people but he wasn't the worst person, "he was a dictator but a kind one." he wants the best for Shurima and other then Xerath backstabbing him for power (Ascension) Shurima wouldn't have fallen, Renekton wouldn't go Koo-Koo and Taliyah might've had a different PoV on Azir. If anything I blame Xerath for this.

(also he did save Sivir from being stabbed by Cass. and the Idea of a "soldier peasant girl is gonna walk up to the Emperor Ascended god to talk." isn't Impossible.)

Lovely Pants1 votes

There might be a little more to this than simply not knowing history. Consider the last line from Azir's long background.

"I will reclaim my lands and take back what was mine!"

It seems like modern day Shurima would be some kind of loose association of villages, tribes, nomads, etc. Azir may not be acquiescent to the thought that a good number of these people may not want to come back into the fold of his empire, full-fledged citizen or no.

Imagine trying to convince the modern day territories that previously formed the Roman empire that they ought to be reclaimed, for example. The people that live in those places kind of have their own ideas about how they want to be these days. Azir may have been foreword thinking for his time, but it seems he may become a conqueror from the old age.

Narcissa Black1 votes

Yeah, you have a point. But, again... that's not what's being done. He isn't going out to these nomadic Shurimans and conscripting them back under his rule. Or at the very least we don't know that, the merchants don't know that, and Taliyah for sure doesn't know that. That's what makes it all suspect. From what we know, he raised his former empire from the sands and then split his time planning and trying to pitch to his errant great granddaughter the joys of being actual royalty.

Lovely Pants1 votes

Well, the bottom line is we don't know much yet what is going on in Shurima with Azir's revival because the lore hasn't progressed far enough for us to see, but what hints we have been given so far don't suggest that Azir plans to take the councilman's role in the future of the nation.

Also consider these quotes from Taliyah, which seem a little more predictive of her problem with Azir:

Against Azir -There is no empire without the people -You forget your people

Against Xerath -Yours is the ill wind that begat his wrath

Azir may in fact care very little for the modern day population and be content with making his own empire made of sand, but he seems to intend to be a major political power again, and that in itself doesn't bode well for the current population. In this scenario the most kind path Azir is likely to take would be to simply push out or marginalize those that he has no desire to claim from his domain, disrupting their way of life and the local balance of power, stirring up his ancient conflict near home.

Narcissa Black2 votes

That essentially makes it a claims dispute which Taliyah would actually have no part of. See, the way you're putting it is that it's a question of who owns the land, and thereby who can do what with it. Azir has the prior claim, and seeing that he's basically a god, you'd think his will holds weight in this matter. Taliyah, as illogically angry as she is to me, still has no right to challenge him on this. I'm pretty sure it's between the leaders of the current Shuriman, Azir, Sivir, and maybe the Tribunal.

Because, to me, it's like if in American (removing the context of all the genocide and etc) an ancient Indian chief rose from the dead with the power to summon golems from nature and stated he wanted a) his land back and b) to gather his people or what's left of them back under his banner. While I'm more than sure there would be panic, chaos, and people grabbing their guns the right thing to do would be to work that shit out through discussion because what the fuck man, he just rose from the dead, there might be so preordained destiny shit going on.

Lovely Pants1 votes

See, I think my gut reaction when I live in a world where vengeful spirits and the like are more a commonplace matter of history than myth and you tell me I have to give up my home and livelihood to divine will is, "To hell with your god. I'm not praying to you. I'm getting an exorcist to put your dead ass back in the ground where it belongs."

There's nothing illogical about being upset about the threat of your entire culture and people being usurped by a specter from the past. The only right I need to dispute his claim is the fact that I'm living here. Some compromise should probably be met, but I'm going to argue that I think it's far more fair for that to come from the centuries dead ruler of the realm who is upsetting the way of life that has been established in his absence. He's the foreigner now, and if he wants us to help him regain his glory he better understand that this is a favor to one whose right to control the land has long expired.

And it's this ideological disagreement between us that I think exhibits pretty accurately why conflict is going to be unavoidable between the likes of Taliyah and Azir.

Narcissa Black1 votes

You know what, you're completely right, that's an argument I can't refute. If the two of us, who aren't nearly as invested as they would be are having this debate then it is pretty logical that their own discussion would escalate to violence because Taliyah's personality comes off as irreverent and uncaring to Azir's entire purpose for rising again and he's as determined to bring his empire back to it's former glory as she seems to want to stop it.

WE'LL SEE.

The Last Ballad1 votes

http://grabilla.com/0650a-fe6fab3e-cdeb-4e58-8e25-b71594d55236.png ?

Lauchmelder1 votes

I'm gonna call a completely different thought out here.

If all of Shurima basically got obliterated by the "explosion" (if you can call it that) INCLUDING it's citizens and Sivir is Azirs descendent wouldn't that kind of make Taliyah a descendent too? Wouldn't that make any champion that wasn't there when the Shuriman Empire vanished from the face of the lands a son /daughter of Azir?

GreenLore1 votes

It is very unlikely that all of the shurimans died in that explosion,maybe those who lived in the capital,but there were likely outer villages/towns where the people survived.

Also I think you worded your theory kinda weird,its not like Azir was the father of humankind back then and I think it was even said that Sivir is his last descendant.

Narcissa Black1 votes

I think the point that you're trying to make is that Shurima as they knew it then no longer exists, and that anyone that was Shuriman (?) is now basically part of the royal line in the same way that Sivir is. And, you could have a point, this risen Shurima would technically count as an entirely new empire and would only be Shuriman in name only.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Exactly. My wording sucks though, no idea why I couldn't make it clear tbh xD

MeilinII1 votes

Except that's not how it works. It's 100% canon that Sivir is the ONLY descendant of Azir left, and it's kinda been implied that Sivir is the descendant of Azir through a liaison with a concubine or slave. In other words, she's not royal at all in the traditional sense, but rather would have been a member of the slave class from ancient Shurima, same as Taliyah's family. The slaves are the ones who survived because the capital city is what exploded. The capital would have only had rich people and their house slaves; the actual slaves in the fields and the poor in small towns would have been the most likely to survive.

Icestar11861 votes

Shurima the capital city blew up, not Shurima the empire. The explosion was about the size of a nuke; to take out the whole empire instantly you'd need something on the scale of the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs - or bigger.

The Last Ballad1 votes

While the entire empire was not obliterated, most of the loyal(not forced to be in the empire) citizens were in the capital to witness their Emperor's greatest achievement...

LordGeovanni1 votes

The capital city blew up but azir had concubines and slave girls which carried on his bloodline obviously some didnt stay in the capital or were had out side of the capital but there were also regualr people out side of the captial its totally possible for taliyah to not be azirs descendant but i think she may have some of the blood.

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