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Is Riven a Chaotic Good, or is she something else?

RaptorKarr··5 votes·1,938 views

For me I believe that she could very much be considered a Chaotic Good the reason I think this is because that she is the only Noxian champion to give Noxus a more, lighter side, if you will. I say this because in Riven's lore she was trained for "Honorable Combat" and was disgusted that High command was using Zaunite War machines to fight rather then the solders, Riven and her team were ordered basically to clean up whatever Zauns tanks didn't kill, which most of the time were most likely civilians or weakened soldiers, this went against Riven's beliefs of fighting the Ionian Solders in combat so that Noxus could really prove it's might as the stronger nation. However Riven was a good little solder and fallowed her orders to the letter something she wishes she hadn't done anymore. Riven left Noxus so that she could restore "Noxian Honor" to be honest i'm not really sure how she learned of this "Noxian Honor" since not a single other Noxian champion seems capable of such honor.

Darius Cares only for victory regardless of how it is earned, Noxus must win at all costs for him. Katarina +Talon Are both assassin's and don't give a damn about Honor, Talon even says he doesn't believe in Honor, For Katarina it's not a matter of Noxian Honor it's a matter of her own pride. Cassiopeia Again victory for Noxus by any means necessary, she even tried to gain God like powers for this exact reason, and to probably increase her own status in Noxian society. Swain IS A FKING BIRD DEMON, last I checked Demons have no honor, what his real goals are I have no idea. Sion Lives only to kill indiscriminately. Leblanc Is a born Liar anything she says may as well be false or is just a trick. Draven Cares only about Draven Vladimir Shouldn't even need an explanation on why he's a dick. Urgot Again cares only about victory no mater the cost, and revenge lots and lots of revenge.

Which is why I love Riven so she shows Noxus has or had this for lack of a better word, Noble side.

Do you agree with me, do you believe Riven meets the standers of a Chaotic Good or do you believe she should be placed else where?

And encase you don't know here's what a Chaotic Good is. A chaotic good character does what's necessary to bring about change for the better, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well. Chaotic good characters usually intend to do the right thing, but their methods are generally disorganized and often out of sync with the rest of society.

Also Fun Fact Riven was originally suppose to be released as a Demacian champion only to be exiled after helping Noxian Refugees escape from unfair Demacian judgement. She was suppose to show this darker side of Demacia much like she showed a lighter side of Noxus.

Edit: Wow it's really split down the middle for this topic, 5 for yes, 5 for no and 6 for unsure, interesting.

52 Comments

Maple Crusader4 votes

More Neutral Good. Riven is still Noxian at heart, a Social Darwinist.

RaptorKarr1 votes

She doesn't slaughter the weak for simply being weak.

Ralanr1 votes

But she doesn't save the weak either.

RaptorKarr1 votes

She might, if the weak are exterminated how will they ever be able to prove they're strong or one day become strong?

Ralanr1 votes

If they weren't strong enough to survive now, then they don't deserve a future.

RaptorKarr1 votes

I doubt Riven thinks that anymore since she believes in honorable combat, and I doubt she would sit idle as a 200lb Noxian clad in full metal armor and wielding a giant axe slaughters a small town for shts and giggles.

(Yes I understand i'm reaching, but still)

Ralanr1 votes

You're really reaching. Honestly I see her as more neutral until something develops.

stealthfox941 votes

I'm not an expert on her lore but I figured she was neutral good leaning towards lawful good. The rest of the Noxian champs are lawful evil or neutral evil. Although I guess you could argue Draven is True Neutral.

RaptorKarr1 votes

It's impossible for a Mortal to be able to do such a thing.

Save for Animals

kitcat3001 votes

Actually, Katarina's lore specifically mentions that she has a sense of honor.

Furious at her mistake, Katarina set off to complete her original task. Returning to the camp, she spied her now heavily guarded target and realized a stealthy kill was no longer possible. Drawing her blades, Katarina swore the officer would die, no matter the cost. She leapt into battle, unleashing a whirlwind of steel. One by one blades flashed and guards fell, each strike bringing her one step closer to the officer. A final thrown dagger restored her honor. Bloody and bruised, Katarina barely escaped the Demacian forces, and returned to Noxus a changed woman. The scar she earned that night now serves as a constant reminder that she must never let passion interfere with duty.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

To be good, you have to actually do good things.

What good has Riven done? She's frankly probably done more bad than good, even if she didn't enjoy doing it.

RaptorKarr1 votes

A chaotic good character does what's necessary to bring about change for the better, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well. Chaotic good characters usually intend to do the right thing, but their methods are generally disorganized and often out of sync with the rest of society.

Riven wishes to change Noxus for the better and give it this Code of Honor she believed Noxus to have, The strong should rule over the weak but not look down on them or kill them because they are simply weak, She's not fighting for herself.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

A chaotic good character does what's necessary to bring about change for the better, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well.

If only there was any indication that she actually cared about that. She only left when it negatively affected her.

Chaotic good characters usually intend to do the right thing, but their methods are generally disorganized and often out of sync with the rest of society.

I should also point out that her methods are only "chaotic" by the standards of Noxus. She doesn't value righteousness over regulation. She just wants to replace Noxus' current values with a different set of values. This is a lawful point of view.

Riven wishes to change Noxus for the better and give it this Code of Honor she believed Noxus to have, The strong should rule over the weak but not look down on them or kill them because they are simply weak, She's not fighting for herself.

That's nice and all, but what good has she actually done?

Just as you can not be evil without doing evil, you can't be good without doing good. She's merely neutral.

She's also not particularly chaotic. As you said, Riven rather strongly believes in a set of values. Chaotic characters don't, unless that belief is in chaos itself.

GreenLore1 votes

I'd say she fits chaotic neutral a bit better for now.

Yes she isn't outright evil,but that doesn't mean that she is good either.

She wouldn't have objected if the noxians invaded ionia and killed them with their own strenght.

RaptorKarr1 votes

True, but Riven still isn't one that kills indiscriminately, if she stayed in Noxus she would be more Lawful Neutral since she was just fallowing orders and still has her code of honor.

GreenLore1 votes

Yeah,but not killing indiscriminately doesn't make you automatically good. Katarina doesn't kill indiscriminately either,yet she is neutral at best(possibly even evil).

So far we simply haven't enough Lore about riven to properly judge her,she could be chaotic good,but she doesn't have to be like that.

RaptorKarr1 votes

fair enough.

SchaakaKon1 votes

How could Riven be considered good? Shes lawful/neutral just with out a home.

She believes very strongly in the ethics/codes of old Noxus, so much so that she left her home nation. Any chaotic person would have said w/e and went with the flow of the new Noxus leadership.

Good? Where does Riven ever do a selfless task? Not saying she cant be considered good but theres no evidence of it either. Shes the hardest believer of Noxus philosophy and Noxus idealism is not 'good' in anyones book.

RaptorKarr1 votes

If that last part were true she would have stayed even after the bombardment Noxian Idealism as it is now is Win at all costs

SchaakaKon1 votes

No, using Zaun poison gas to win does not equate to strength wins, which is what she had problems with. Im not saying shes evil but shes clearly not in a definition of good.

RaptorKarr1 votes

Alright, then the real question is where did Riven learn of this "Honorable Combat" or better yet why does she even care about it? It's clear that the other Noxian champions don't care about such a thing, "Honorable Combat" is more of a Demacian or Ionian thing, why is she the one Noxian we've seen with such values?

SchaakaKon1 votes

True, she does have that edge over other Noxians but lets not forget that Riven is a strong believer in old Noxian idealisms, which happens to be "Those pease loving Ionians are weak, therefor it is completely in our right if we can conquer them through our might".

Im not saying Noxus idealism (Darwinism cranked up) is wrong but i can call preying on the weak not a 'good' trait.

RaptorKarr1 votes

But Riven doesn't prey on the weak, it was one of the reasons she left Noxus because they would do such a thing. Riven believed that the war with Ionia was meant to reform them but it was Genocide Noxians aren't conquers they are Homicidal Maniacs even back in the days of Sion there was no conquering, only killing. Noxus doesn't believe in conquering the weak only in eliminating them and Noxus views all other Nations as weak and must be eliminated.

But Riven has a form of Knights code or Samurai's code take your pick, it's clear Noxus doesn't have this, nore ever had, did she have a mentor of some kind that she looked up too who happened to respect his or her enemies? Thats why I find Riven so fascinating she has Ideals Noxus does not or has ever seemed to have not to mention she knows the "Wind Blade" or at least know enough of it to have created her own version of it, something Noxians should not know.

Beyond Legends1 votes

I would call Riven a military retard if anything. Honour gets jack shit done in war. Sure I pity her for getting nuked, but she aint anything special during the Ionian Invasion. If anything I would call Riven Neutral Evil since, her ideals are selfish to her own morals. Unlike Darius who want to make Noxua great.

RaptorKarr1 votes

Single most incorrect statement ever

Beyond Legends1 votes

I see you're a Riven fan boy. Not even going bother making a counter arguement? Riven isn't a saint, in reality she is a deserter. Unlike Dariuas who actually went back to Noxus and axe the problem away, She decided to wander for god knows how many years. Hell Darius is even more humble than Riven, atleast he realize he isn't a good ruler and let Swain be in charge. He could easily taken the title of Grand General, but he didn't. Darius is a better Noxian and patriot than Riven ever will be. She cowered out because her personal ideal was shatter and ran away like a little rat. She isn't fit to be a soldier. There is no honour in murder and those who think so are hypocritics.

RaptorKarr1 votes

You do realize that every military REAL WORLD MILITARY have a sense of honor and dignity, Riven fallows this same guide line she does not believe in needless slaughter, where as someone like Darius will kill anyone who looks at him funny, he has more in common with Ted Bundy then he does with a solder. Riven Regrets her actions during the war of Ionia and while she may still believe in the strong ruling over the weak she does not believe in killing the weak, unlike Noxus as it is now where they kill the weak for pure sport and entertainment.

Beyond Legends1 votes

Real Military has a ethic code, not a honour one. Honour has zero place in the battle field. Riven is just pissy that she got nuked, she is still a butcher like any other Noxian soldiers. Darius is like Ted Bundy? Get you ass out of your head and maybe go read some lore instead of ingecting your personal bias everywhere. Also I fail to see your connection with Ted Bundy, but I don't expect any new ons coming from you.

RaptorKarr1 votes

I was just looking for a serial killer to match him up too and Ted Bundy was the first to come to mind, granted a better match up would have been with a certain WWII tyrant. You're hardly one to be talking about forcing your personal bias, your only real problem with Riven is that she kicks your ass in lane isn't it? She may have been a butcher in the past but she left Noxus to seek atonement Riven isn't a person to whine and complain that she lost, if she lost to someone in honorable combat so be it her better defeated her and her fate rests in their hands she unlike the rest of Noxus where defeat is not an option, if Noxus was to lose to a superior enemy so be it, would Riven be upset absolutely, but she would graciously accept defeat from anyone who fought with honor and dignity where as other Noxians would bitch and moan. That is what makes Riven a good person, That is what makes Riven better then the other Noxian Champions and it's ignorant assholes like you that piss me off.

And Honor does matter on the battlefield, and honorable person uses him or herself as a shield nore will they ever try to harm the innocent in order to win a fight, Riven may not use herself as a shield but she sure as hell will never harm an innocent person just to win a fight.

FloRaider421 votes

Lawful evil - Wants to kill the weak, but wants to follow the old traditions while doing it. A tint of chaotic (very emotional) as well, but she is by no means a "good" person.

RaptorKarr1 votes

Evil doesn't look for redemption.

FloRaider421 votes

Redemption ? Riven left Noxus, because she didn't like the way war changed. She isn't fighting to become a better person, but to revive the "good ol" Noxian ways.

To be honest she is kinda in between Neutral and Evil. She could also be lawful neutral, depending on if you see her self-imposed exile as selfish or noble.

RaptorKarr1 votes

Counted dead by Noxus, she saw an opportunity to start anew. She shattered her sword, severing ties with the past, and wandered in self-imposed exile - on a quest to seek atonement and a way to save the pure Noxian vision in which she believed.

FloRaider421 votes

So what ? You can quote her lore, I guess, but I don't see how this helps.

to save the pure Noxian vision in which she believed

The "pure Noxian vision" we are talking about is an extreme form of social darwinism

I guess you interpret that as being lawful neutral, but for me it's seems kinda selfish and stupid, but each their own.

RaptorKarr1 votes

An Extreme form of Social Darwinism is what is going on in Noxus right now, where the weak are being slaughtered for no reason other then pure sport, Noxus lost it's honor and Riven wishes to restore it without resorting to the tactics that those in power do.

FloRaider421 votes

My turn to quote text:

In Noxus, any citizen may rise to power regardless of race, gender, or social standing - strength is all that matters. It was with committed faith in this ideal that Riven strove to greatness. ... It wasn't the glorious combat for which Riven trained.

"Strength is all that matters" is pretty much Noxians slogan and Riven is a posterchild of said belief. She dedicated her entire training and career following this ideal (it's the reason why she carries such a huge weapon) and only abondoned Noxus, because they started to rely on Zaunite machines too much, which she didn't see as honorable. Even in Rivens ideal Noxus the poor and weak would get killed, because they aren't strong enough and therefore have no rights (maybe not as much as she seems to be the type to give a fighting chance)

At worst she is a blood knight that just wants to kill weaklings for being weak. At best she is a very loyal and determined follower of a questionable moral code.

RaptorKarr1 votes

Riven was also disgusted by the fact that they weren't going to Reform Ionia they were going to Eliminate it. Riven does not Kill the weak for being weak, that would be needlessly slaughter Which Riven does not believe in, since that is exactly what they were doing to the Ionians was Needlessly slaughtering them.

FloRaider421 votes

[deleted]

RaptorKarr1 votes

???

FloRaider421 votes

Riven was also disgusted by the fact that they weren't going to Reform Ionia they were going to Eliminate it. Riven does not Kill the weak for being weak, that would be needlessly slaughter. Which Riven does not believe in, since that is exactly what they were doing to the Ionians was Needlessly slaughtering them.

Exactly what I said so far (with a more romantic perspective), so I thought you did aggree... Now I am confused

RaptorKarr1 votes

I saw this

Even in Rivens ideal Noxus the poor and weak would get killed, because they aren't strong enough and therefore have no rights (maybe not as much as she seems to be the type to give a fighting chance)

At worst she is a blood knight that just wants to kill weaklings for being weak.

before I saw this At best she is a very loyal and determined follower of a questionable moral code.

FloRaider421 votes

It depends a lot on how you interpret a chracters actions to understand their alligment and I just wanted to explain why I (and some others) interpret her as lawful neutral or lawful evil. I think I managed to do that, but I am not sure now...

RaptorKarr1 votes

I can see why people say Lawful Neutral, but Lawful Evil? She is the farthest thing from evil.

FloRaider421 votes

The Lawful Evil Code

  1. You shall not lie
  1. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself or promote order
  2. You shall kill to advance yourself or promote order
  3. You shall not aid the weak
  4. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes you and your comrades
  5. You shall follow the law
  6. You shall not betray others
  7. You shall not aid criminals or those who protect the weak
  8. You shall use the law to advance yourself and your comrades
  9. You shall seek unlimited power over others and unlimited order in society

A lot is covered by believing and embracing the Noxian belief, so I don't really blame anyone for putting here there. But honestly, all this Alligment discussions are purely subjective as everything depends on your interpretation of said character. Nice pic I found to illustrate how absurd this discussion is

RaptorKarr1 votes

Oh come on it's still fun to talk about though isn't it? (At least when people aren't assholes)

FloRaider421 votes

Yes sure, it's always nice to hear about the different interpretations and how people ended up with them. I just wanted to point out that ultimately it is purely subjective. So there is no right or wrong answer.

RaptorKarr1 votes

Fair enough I suppose.

Khâmul1 votes

What do you consider as good?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Well in d&d alignments are more like rubbery guidelines than brickwall rules; but it's also up to each person's opinion as well.

For example . . . A necromancer may think himself lawful neutral as he only raises those long dead, instead of recent dead out of respect; while a paladin views him as chaotic evil, as he's willfully and repeatedly breaking the laws of nature.

Granted that's very stilted from lacking several details, but that's roughly the idea; alignments are more like moral dispositions, they'll tend to do something in particular to their character, but won't necessarily view it like others do.

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