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Riot, here is what we want for Viktor

333lom·12/10/2016, 6:28:22 PM·50 votes·3,999 views

Recently, we've been saying what we don't want for him. A little while back, many of us posted threads about what we like about Viktor.

For the Viktor lore update

Why Viktor is awesome

Ekko's taunts

Let us see first** why** the community is so tied to Viktor. I've seen many people argue even how Jayce did more bad things than Viktor. I personally would view Jayce as essentially a good guy, who doesn't bother to understand Viktor. Jayce fights for a status quo. He's a typical hero.

Many of us had said that we see something in Viktor. That many of us can relate to Viktor. A young man who naively believed in the goodness of the world, who then had his intellectual property stolen. Something so precious and personal. Nobody came to help him. This is all true and visible in his original lore.

He sinks into a terrible depression. If he didn't have his love and passion for techmaturgy, which is mentioned in the** first line **of his lore, he would possibly have died, locked away in his lab. This makes the reader bond with the character. He doesn't give up. He focuses all of his frustration, anger and sadness not into revenge, but into innovation and into self-improvement. This is a marvel. He's able to overcome his own weaknesses.

But then he starts something that nobody really understands. Is the Glorious Evolution evil? It could be.** But it isn't confirmed. Is it a good thing? It could be.**

This is why he can't be a villain by default. Bear with me now! Another thing: most people relate to a hero, not to a villain.

What am I trying to say? Viktor is portrayed as a hero in original lore. With some very troubling and weird implications. But none of them are evil. The Glorious Evolution is left vague in his original lore, and that's why people see Viktor essentially in a good light!

We are all passionate about defending this character because he's essentially a neutral guy, who could be the hero that saves the world. This is not to say he's your typical "hero", goody-two-shoes. No, not at all. His charm is also in the fact that he might go insane at any point. Many even consider him insane right now. He might slip and do some horrible things. But if he ever really does them, he will be too far gone. He will be another Xerath. This is what the majority of comments are saying, Riot - don't make Viktor do dark deeds because that would immediately brand him as a villain forever. The extremist trope is overused already. The "ends justify the means" type of character is a villain.

As I've said, his character is not a "clean, white" character. Where is this visible? It is visible in the fact that he augmented himself, for starters. This is what other characters find off-putting; a goody-two-shoes would be a happy scientist who only creates prosthetics for disabled people. Viktor attacked himself (a very frightening thing), and is offering, to those who want, to replace functioning parts. This is what's creepy and possibly immoral. This is where the question should be placed, "is replacing the healthy good or bad?" This is what creates conflict and adds a possibility that Viktor might be mad.

So his "villainous" connotation comes only from the fear and from the possibility that he might go to the wrong side. Gray morality means that it is** unknown** where the character sits on the scale of good vs evil. Why is Viktor described as one? Not because he does some good things and some bad things. He's here because of his Glorious Evolution, which is vague in his original lore perhaps even on purpose. Nobody knows if this is good or bad. This is why the Glorious Evolution creates suspense.

We don't want a villain with a tragic backstory. We already have Xerath for that. Many people compare Viktor to Nikola Tesla. Is he considered a bad person? No, but in his time, the alternating current he used was displayed by others in a negative light on purpose in order to convince people that it's bad. It was used for executions, for killing of stray dogs... We could draw a parallel, as one of my friends said, what if someone else uses Viktor's technology for evil? Urgot comes to mind. The old lore had things set up. This story hook could have Viktor struggle with the question, is his Evolution a good or a bad thing? A moral dilemma always gets the audience to investigate a character as opposed to just dismissing them when the character "always wanted to control and perhaps even remove free will". Who cares if they wanted that for a greater purpose or not.

Viktor is not a knight templar who would kill anyone who opposes his glorious vision of future. But I have a feeling you want to turn him into one in the new lore. "Viktor doesn't care about the fragile people around him, he pushes for his glorious future". This is the issue with the new lore. This shows that he's already a villain like Xerath in the new lore. Remember - we don't want a character who is too far gone. We want to be able to identify with him, as we re able to, now. We want a hero.

though Viktor's initial appeals were met with heavy skepticism, scientists were confounded by the sophistication of his machinery.

From his lore; he doesn't force people to join the glorious evolution. He presents his movement to the scientific community and asks them to look into it.

Viktor can be a driving force. A character that scares many others with his speeches and philosophy. Someone who gets his ides stolen again, and someone who starts questioning his own movement. People accuse him of stripping humanity off of people, but his acolytes reply that a person doesn't need to be of flesh and blood to be humane. He gets into conflicts with characters like Jayce who openly block the advancement of his movement. Viktor can be wrong, he can fail at times, struggle and doubt himself. There are a lot of ways to tell awesome stories about him without pushing him to do "dark deeds" for the sake of having him be a boring Knight Templar.

Try looking at him like a hero with flaws, who looks like a villain -** he suddenly starts to resemble what the community wants him to be**. It is what he originally was, before Jayce was created. Dangerous, but so far innocent when it comes to horrible crimes. Yes, he is close to loosing his mind. Yes, he stole the crystal for he deems private property less important the advancement of humanity. But such a crime doesn't render him unredeemable.

http://68.media.tumblr.com/bbbce19a9e716e3a36aec1bced46711a/tumblr_ohzcem322N1tbpqalo1_500.png (my art)

Edit: as I remembered another issue that is very important.

It has to do with the theory that VIktor's and Jayce's story takes place a hundred years ago, and that they're perhaps even dead and burried. This would be a very bad thing. Why? Because if anyone's story should be happening in the present, it is the story of these marvels of geniuses for techmaturgy.

It is because the outcome of the Evolution cannot be predicted, and if you push it far into the past, it looses all of its importance. With each additional year you give to Viktor, you decrease his capableness.

So this is my peraonal opinion, I would want Viktor to not have to do anything with the Piltovian academy. Why has Zaun been stripped of its credibility and its colleges of their prestigiousness?

I would also want their story to be happening right now, at this moment.

And a final point, taken from one of my comments:

The fact which is completely going against Viktor's original character: his friendship with Jayce. Here is how: Jayce disagreed with some of Viktor's ideas in the new lore. What happened afterwards is irrelevant, because in this timeline, Viktor had starting ideas for the Evolution since forever. This is the main offender. The core point of his original lore is that he came to the idea only after suffering a horrible trauma. He and Jayce wouldn't have a point to disagree on, in the old lore. Viktor never wanted to upgrade humans, he just wanted to clean Zaun and work on robots. This means, as Anagram King pointed out numerous times, that Viktor in the new lore went through 0 character transformations. He also shows in the new lore a tendency towards amorality, which is ridiculous. He should be cracked in the head only after his depression. That's the whole point of his trauma.

59 Comments

TyrekGoldenspear12/10/2016, 6:51:51 PM17 votes

You and King Anagram truly are champions of Viktor.

He would be proud.

ElectroScalar12/10/2016, 6:49:56 PM15 votes

I wish Riot would take our points and have the lore built around them.

I and many our friends would be eternally grateful. I mean, it isn't hard to take these points. Plus, the fanbase would be content and would be more willing to give money for skins. Win-win situation.

Edit: Rito, please give us our hero!

A Superb Villain12/10/2016, 7:26:51 PM14 votes

Regardless of whether or not people see Viktor as benevolent or malicious, I have always personally enjoyed his lore relative to the larger stories of League because his is one of slow progression; The Glorious Evolution may had been conceived of over night, but its progress, the effect it could have on Runeterra was slow. There is no empire threatening the independence of another nation, there is no dark overlord bent on world domination, there is no hero uncovering an ancient conspiracy, it's just Viktor with a new idea that both intrigued and frightened the world.

No one knew what future the Glorious Evolution might bring, not even Viktor. He had an end goal in mind, but he is no prophet, and the outcome could have been wildly different from what he expected. Urgot could be an example of unforeseen consequences; his designs give Urgot life, but at such a horrific cost as to be almost unthinkable, a life of constant suffering. Urgot is the Glorious Evolution twisted into an abomination, built under the idea of "the ends justify the means", and that is why this description concerns fans. More often than not, the ends never justify the means, it's just an excuse perpetuate harmful actions under the guise of altruism.

The Glorious Evolved represent the same ideal but converted into a religious ideology; it could be a light for some, a glimpse of hope for the downtrodden of Zaun as they struggle to climb out of poverty and the Grey. The church formed around The Glorious Evolution could do good in the world, but it is also susceptible to the temptations of zealotry. It is not good, nor is it bad, it is an idea. Humans, us, are what give these things perspective, for better or worse.

I expected Viktor to evolve with his own idea, reacting to how it changed the world around him, if at all, and adjusting himself accordingly. He would probably make mistakes, but he doesn't seem one who would deny them, and consequently try to fix his errors, and failing that learn from them.

The Glorious Evolution was a story about development, of the world and its characters. Perhaps it's not exciting, and that's why many aren't interested in Viktor; transforming him into the typical extremist anti-villain, who does horrible things for what they believe is right, makes for more exciting tales filled with action, but it is hollow. We know how it ends.

Viktor and the Glorious Evolution provoked thought. Making it a downward spiral doesn't ask us to think, just enjoy the ride while we can already see the bottom.

SkyMagpie12/10/2016, 8:01:29 PM12 votes

Viktor's greatest misfortune was actually the old writing team. He was just incredibly lucky - or perhaps unlucky to get writers that would fail to capture him as they intended - thus leaving us with a very vague lore. It was obvious what direction they tried to take but since they didn't the old lore gave us this completely different idea about him.

And thus without knowing, the old lore writers wrote one of the most complex characters in League. The lore was so vague and all over the place that as a whole it made it seem like Viktor was boring. But if you began nitpicking every detail from it you would discover that Viktor was an incredibly unique character generally in media. He relied on so many tropes and cliches yet he was never fully part of any. I don't know if those writers were aware what kind of character they wrote and what kind of issues they brought him in.

The trope of a amoral scientist doing amoral things for their perceived "greater good" and "the end justifies the means" was an overused trope and was getting old. However Viktor was a good man, a genuinely good person who wanted better world - he was naive and that was very telling for someone that lived his life in Zaun, and to the point that he blindly trusted his professor with his work. Viktor created artificial life that was sentient, he intended to fix Zaun's problems. Viktor never showed that he is a villain before he was wronged.

And from this Riot had a base to build a character that would show us how philosophies can be flawed as much as they are enlightening. Through his pain of betrayal, his deep depression Viktor believed that his suffering can save humanity from itself. That he can augment himself and remove the emotional and physical weakness that made him human - in the process saving himself from all the pain that Stanwick's theft cause him. And he thinks he can save and change humanity the same way he changed himself. This is why Stanwick hurting Viktor is important for making him the Machine Herald! Because it literally jumpstarts the Glorious Evolution. Viktor wasn't born with that idea, he was forced to develop it to save himself. For anyone suffering with depression you must be able to relate to how much you want to not feel anything instead of feeling anger, emptiness, envy and hate. He had to make himself "perfect" to be able to pick himself up from having all his life work's stolen and move on.

And he genuinely thinks he can save humanity. However he thinks that is something that must be done and there is no option not to do it. And in on itself it is not a flawed philosophy. He wants to improve lives through not so socially acceptable means of augmentation - however his intentions are still clear. **He doesn't want to oppress people, he wants to liberate them from the shackles he thinks emotion and flesh are ("In one hand Techmaturgy is a tool. As one's hand - it is liberation"). However just like everything, every philosophical thought that grew into a movement or religion, there are chances for it to be evil. There could be religious cults in his name that would do bad, there might be people who will rise as political figures again in his name - advisers, supporters, nobles - that will claim to support what he intended to do but twist it so they use it to oppress people. Viktor's Glorious Evolution was good on paper, but in reality it could be a terrible idea. **AND THAT is exactly the kind of complex political issue they should have touched on. **How what Viktor thought would change the world might destroy it, and how at the end of the day maybe it was he who became the villain he feared. **

Viktor's inner conflict, his inner thoughts and fears, his battle with his own humanity - or lack of it. All topics that should be explored.

However that is not lost since the Piltover update. Everyone augments and it is not a "scary" idea. Everything Viktor wanted to make is not normal in the world he lives in. And that is why Riot pushed him further into the dark zone, they made him the villain he was never supposed to become. They couldn't think of anything else for him since they wanted a lady with metal knife legs, so they had to play on his morality. They had to make it seem as if he wanted to make mindless minions that wont disobey, to force people to augment when he only wanted to make people see his point of view. People argue that removing emotions would take away free will but no, Viktor never wanted to take free will. He wants to remove love and hate so they won't cloud our judgement of what is right or wrong, of what we should do or shouldn't do. It is flawed but that's who he is, a flawed anti-hero/anti-villain. And his failures or successes were far more interesting to see than knowing he wanted to make augments to strip free will from people.

But I digress, the point is that the world building killed Viktor. They took from him everything he was and threw back at us a shadow of the character he used to be. Without him being the first to augment, no amount of sad tragic past could explain why he wanted the Glorious Evolution the way his self augmentation due to depression, social isolation and betrayal did. Viktor literally augmented himself so that no one can take this from him, he changed himself and then decided to change the world. It was such a strong message about the Glorious Evolution as a movement and now it's lost.

Without that really minor part of his story, he is just like any other sympathetic villain out there, fake gray morality, killing people here and there "the end justifies the means." He loses that implied depth of his character that was probably accidentally written to him but it made him who he is. And he was a very complex character. There was so much more to build on him, yet Riot decided consciously to steal his story and give it to Piltover, leaving him as another tragic villain for our hero Jayce to learn a lesson from. And no matter how ironic this is, it is the sad and undeniable truth that nothing can get back that part of his lore.

Ravenhale12/11/2016, 12:40:10 AM5 votes

I'm still not convinced Viktor was "wrong" for introducing a suit that allowed the user to follow their supervisor's orders to the letter.

This suit was meant to increase productivity and suppress harmful reactions that result from panic and fear in the face of emergencies. Viktor is operating under the impression that the supervisor will not casually throw away the lives of their workers and damage the suits that they stuffed these workers into.

There's also the fact that at the end of the work day these suits come off. There is always choice involved as far as Viktor is concerned. The worker decides to work there and decides to put on the suit. He's not doing this to enslave workers. He's doing it to keep them safe.

Finikksu12/10/2016, 11:01:40 PM4 votes

Is always nice see people who love what Viktor is supposed to be and don't want Riot to mess it up. I already left my thought in the "Some Thought of Viktor" topic a Riot made.

However there is something that bothers me since the Universe page was added and maybe that is either the last nail in the coffin or the saving grace for Viktor. Viktor's related Champions. For what I have been seeing most of the champions have in this sections other champions that are directly related to them, rarely you see an odd ball here and there but they make a bit of sense in some far away way. Viktor's related are Jayce (nemesis), Blitz and Urgot (made with his research), Camille (enemy of Zaun), but also Ekko, Orianna and Mundo. Ekko I can think is because he is trying to find and stop "everything wrong with Zaun" as he says, However Orianna and Mundo are odd balls here. Orianna maybe because she was augmented? Mundo maybe because they're both Zaun scientists? Or maybe... Orianna was ill and that is why parts of her body had to be replaced, maybe the way they did it was with help of Viktor or with his research. Mundo I cannot think in anything, in his actual short lore says he is a serial killer that only wants to inflict pain. Orianna and Mundo's relation with Viktor are what bothers me, and what can like I said the death or saving of Viktor.

Also, We assume something and I haven't seen anybody mention it. The Time this is going on. We assume every bit of Lore coming out now is happening at the same time, the present. However since the League and the Lore are now two different worlds, maybe Jayce and Viktor's story happened in the past, long enough for a Following for Viktor and the glorious evolution to grow and that is why in Camille's story augments are such a common sight. Viktor is suppossed to be the First Augmented, the Machine Herald, and until now... we haven't seen any other augmented before him. Jayce story only say they were scholars, nothing else, we don't "see" anything going on there, we don't see how the people in Piltover and Zaun are at that time. And in Camille's story I didn't found Viktor mentioned by name anywhere.... maybe...

Bedl44m12/10/2016, 8:19:37 PM3 votes

wow, i didn't know vik was so cool

DragonShea12/13/2016, 12:29:35 AM2 votes

You could say Victor has "Heart" while jayce doesn't. and what I mean by that is that Victor has a personality that invokes sympathy and understanding from people. He is someone that you can tell and even feel that he is a likable person and doesn't come off as pretentious or false, one of the few people does care and you can't really hate because regardless of what he is doing. he will never truly go off the deep end and he would listen to those that would point out that he is becoming a monster, not machine herald that would help people overcome their natural limitations with augmentations.

Jayce on the other hand is someone that only really cares about his own ego and doesn't really care much about people. He is someone that would shun them for not being on his level while braging about bringing progress.

That is the key difference between the two. Victor is humble and wants to help people and directs his aim towards their needs while doing so at the wrong or too extreme for people to accept yet, while Jayce just works towards progress and progress along and doesn't empathizes with people well.

One would does get the feeling that jayce just sold out victor for because he had an idea that he didn't like and only said sorry because he just wanted his gem back, and deep down. jayce is a much worse person that he would ever realize but want would only come out of he should be pushed to far and break. Victor is already broken and he is still more or less and honest person and always has been, he is just more pissed and extreme because he in "fuck you, I am going all out and you can all get a laser up your ass if you stand in my way" mentality because he just wants to help people. Jayce if he had any brains would tell him that the tech would be good as long as it doesn't mess with their emotions or personalities, if it stops them from feeling any from of discomfort, then it would be good, but removing fear and other emotions was a big no-no.

In the end, Victor is the "hero" and Jayce is the "villain"

Mogarl12/10/2016, 8:30:47 PM1 votes

Viktor wasn't an evil Villain, but he was willing to be a villain. Even Viktor's original lore didn't give any indication to his potential behaviour besides his obsession and dedication to the Evolution. If anything his old lore lent more to a downward path, whereas even in Jayce's new lore I think that there is just as much if not more room for Viktor to show some growth in a non-downward direction. Keep in mind that while Blitzcrank was more or less just attached to Viktor just for the credit to be stolen, now it's villain Viktor that will be responsible for his creation while he's already a villain, and I look forward to that new opportunity.

I don't think Riot is going to strip Viktor of everything we the fans have ever put into him. I have replied to you already in another thread that at the end surmises why I feel this way. Jayce is an asshole like everyone felt and added to him, I see no reason why they would strip Viktor of everything fans had invested in him.

Fairyfleur12/10/2016, 7:55:11 PM1 votes

Didn't they say Jayce's view was unreliable? I'm not sure if you went over that or not, just pointing it out.

Edit: I realize you probably already know

Sahn Uzal12/10/2016, 6:33:51 PM1 votes

[deleted]

KcbmsQxbPL12/10/2016, 9:18:52 PM1 votes

Speak for yourself, I think the evil supervillain thing is cool.

rtbf22561824112/10/2016, 10:00:01 PM1 votes

But such a crime doesn't render him unredeemable.

No but i shudder to think what kind of an asshole he might become if he was to choose between say killing innocents and furthering his evolution or sparing them and halting it.

Dengeden12/11/2016, 3:07:11 PM1 votes

From his lore; he doesn't force people to join the glorious evolution. He presents his movement to the scientific community and asks them to look into it.

Where?

The scientific community, particular in a semi-medieval setting, will not have a moral compass. "For the greater good" will, indeed, be their modus operandi. This includes Viktor, even the old Viktor, especially one who rejected his own emotions. Could you convince a robot of the necessity of emotion?

Why has Zaun been stripped of its credibility and its colleges of their prestigiousness?

Because Zaun will be a separate event. His lore-connection to Jayce inevitably pulled Viktor into Piltover.

I would also want their story to be happening right now, at this moment.

Wouldn't the notion of him not seeing the Glorious Revolution to its fruition add to the tragedy behind his character?

We have 2 events that imply Viktor could be turned into a villain: His theoretical worker suit and his brainless (hah, geddit?) minions. Both could have morally grey but not necessarily villainous justifications.