Death of an Ascended or an Aspect may mean End of a Celestial Concept

Fasmodey·6/29/2018, 2:48:38 PM·12 votes·10,088 views

I think it's possible Illaoi's god could free/kill Aatrox's human soul and allow that soul to return to the cosmos. But it's complicated because the celestial concept Aatrox merged with and gained his ascended power from -- has been trapped/deleted. Literally the ideal/idea he represented ceased to exist when he was trapped. Human's no longer could even have the thought/idea he was the avatar of. - WAAARGHbobo

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yeah war in the "heavens" is some bat-shit level hardcore stuff with bizaaro levels of consequences. This is a war between "ideas" where the very thought, understanding, conception, or expression of a thing can die. What would happen if the very idea of War was deleted and ceased to exist? (and let's not kid ourselves and think it would be all rainbows and gingerbread cookies.) What if the idea of protection was deleted? Does it stop or do we all become just a little less connected to reality? - WAAARGHbobo

The concept that Aatrox represented with his Ascension no more lives. It is like, let's say Nasus represents the Knowledge, Wisdom or whatever. If Nasus dies, it means humans have the chance not understand this concept anymore. But maybe it requires a trap magic and death is not necessarily the mean the death of concept.

38 Comments

Oleandervine6/29/2018, 3:11:08 PM14 votes

I'm calling bullshit on the first one from Waargaboo. Mainly because you don't just drop that kind of important information so innately tied to how the Ascended operate in a Q&A and leave it get lost in the archives of Reddit. If the Ascended are becoming representatives and embodiments of actual concepts it makes even LESS sense, and it's not mentioned during any part of any lore we have about Ascended. We only know that the Shurimans call the power of the sun down to imbue them with godhood.

Furthermore, why in all the 9 hells are they lodging major ideas and concepts into mortal vessels that will die? In what remote corner of anywhere would you think it's a great idea to put an infinite thing like an idea or a concept in a mortal that will die and destroy the concept when it dies? I get that the new lore has Targon as being part of the creation process of the Ascended, but how and why would the Targonian Aspects allow this to happen? It makes no sense, unless they're concepts like "farting in the shower" or "sneezing with your eyes open," but the implications that they're more major concepts like knowledge makes this inconceivably stupid.

This sounds like a matter of making shit up as they go along, because this clearly was not thought out in the context of the lore they have created.

Pale Mask6/29/2018, 3:14:18 PM6 votes

How does this logically even work?

You can't "kill" ideas or abstract concepts. Killing the Aspect of Twilight wouldn't erase change from existence. It's a curiously metaphysical route for the story to take.

Anomandarist6/29/2018, 6:51:56 PM4 votes

I feel like that writing some thing like that would trap the authors/Lore team. If killing an ascended means killing an Idea, or concept. Than Humans have killed Ideas and concepts, other ascended have killed Ideas and concepts. Hell, Myisha got a group of them together to specifically cause the death of some of the ascended. Which means as a whole Runeterra is way shittier than what it used to be, since I believe that is was mentioned that there where thousands of ascended, and most of them are dead.

The ascended that originally had the Chalicar(I forgot her name) was revered by all other ascended so much so that her weapon became a powerful symbol that was capable of making the fallen ascended put aside their differences long enough to hear each other out, at least before trying to take possession of it. What idea or concept she is must of been so profoundly good that her death would probably be seen as the reason as to why the Ascended became Darkin, and the collapsing of the Shurima Empire was just a side effect of her death.

Wouldn't it make more sense if the ascended are a reflection of an idea or concept, or just a representation instead of being the actual idea or concept?

The Aspects already have the narrative realm of being a living Idea, but also everything they do or say is completely within the realm of the idea they are the aspect of. The aspect of twilight is all about change, so twilight has to always be doing something new, something different, always looking for that new interest. I doubt the aspect of twilight could even stand being in a static environment as that goes against their very being. The protecter on the other hand can, and will find beauty in a static environment and would do all he can to preserve that environment in time of change.

So that would make the Aspects the Ideal, the purest expression of what they represent. The Idea. A dod.

The ascended on the other hand are the beings that have an affinity for their concept, they valued something so much that they made it a huge part of what they are, but they are not limited by that idea. Take Nasus before his ascension, his brilliance was recognizable from a young age, "he read, memorized and critiqued the greatest works of history, philosophy and rhetoric within the Library of the Sun before he’d seen ten summers."(From the bio of Nasus) At 10 years old he had become an amazing scholar, long before he became a bad ass military tactician and commander. So when he was close to death and performed the ascension ritual, his values where so close to being the purist form of intelligence and knowledge that he was capable of ascending and had his values for knowledge and intellect turned up to 11 (godhood).

So than we can see that an ascended embodies an Ideal long before the ascension happens. They live it, they breath it, but they are not restricted by it. They are the letters that make up the word that is the idea. A demi-god.

JCPANDIT6/29/2018, 9:58:50 PM4 votes

I wouldn’t be worried. Riot has demonstrated that they don’t remain consistent even with their new lore. Give it a few months and that’ll be overwritten.

Salt aside, I really hope that’s changed or deleted. It doesn’t make any sense, in two ways. One, why would the Targonians sacrifice a concept by merging it with a being that is clearly finite? That concept will eventually die; it’s been heavily emphasised that the Ascended are not immortal.

Two, taking a step back and looking at Riot as a whole, why does the death of an Ascended have to have such drastic consequences? Deleting an entire concept is wildly extreme. If they’re trying to emphasise the seriousness and greatness of Ascension, they’ve gone the wrong way about it. You can’t say that Ascension is a special and exclusive ritual, then have large amounts of Ascended warring against each other. That cheapens the idea. And you can’t then recover the gravity and importance of Ascension by then making the consequences of their death so extreme that it stretches into the realm of unbelievability.

People defend the Darkin lore update by saying that “alien invaders” complicates the lore too much. This bs is 5x more complicated, and it’s pretty unbelievable that the Targonians would’ve ever done such a thing in the first place.

Warlord Rhinark6/29/2018, 3:20:46 PM3 votes

This seems like very stupid and cliché writing if you ask me.

Not every god-like creature has to represent an underlying concept god damn it.

Drusus6/29/2018, 9:53:27 PM1 votes

Has the ascended of the idea immortality died/became a darkin? What about life? mortality? honor? thought? age? love? hate? joy? sorrow? nature? civilization? growth? decay? family?

I wonder these as there was supposed to many ascended before the fall of Azir and Shurima. The concept in theory that Riot has is very thought provoking but it would require practically the whole roster of league, as-is, to keep it from falling apart instantly. Effectively and in that manner, you would get a similar result to what Dawngate had, a Shaper with a specific Vitality. For example Ryze could represent Learning(/Education) if his story was retconned so he merged with an idea. But we know there are only 5 darkin weapons. That is a very tiny amount when you also count Azir, Nasus, Renekton, Xerath as living ascended. Which makes one wonder where everyone else went.

There is also a double whammy on the flip side, if these ascended exist now or had existed, then what exactly did they all embody if they merged with an idea and then died/became a darkin?

Ebonmaw Dragon6/29/2018, 11:24:51 PM1 votes

But what does "Celestial Concept" even means? i doubt that its the same as a normal concept.

Hexs Fortune6/30/2018, 2:28:32 AM1 votes

One can't kill an idea.

AAtrox's original celestial identity will manifest anew in another champion.

Quiet Dude6/29/2018, 3:41:30 PM1 votes

Seems to me:

Ascended = Mortal and Aspect becoming one, like a legit man becomes God, and that Aspect no longer exists.

So if the Aspect of Barbecuing is used for the Ascension, the mortal becomes an Ascended that represents Barbecuing, and the concept of Barbecuing no longer exists, except in the heart of that Ascended.

Targonian Aspect Avatars (Like Zoe and Taric) = Mortal imbued with power and essence of Aspect. If mortal dies, the aspect is just going to go back to Targon.

It seems making the Avatars is a lot more cost effective, but getting a mortal to climb the mountain is difficult AF. But if that mortal dies, no harm done.

Ascension makes the process easier, at the cost of wiping a concept out of the universe and using it to make a mortal into the Physical Concept/God. If that ascended dies, goodbye Concept/Aspect.

Stew526/29/2018, 3:46:22 PM1 votes

I thought the Ascended were just people empowered by the same aspect that possesses Leona (The sun) and had nothing to do with "Thoughts" or "Ideas" and were just meant to act as soldiers to fight against the void.

Warlord Dienekes6/29/2018, 8:38:36 PM1 votes

Honestly, this sounds like nonsense using vague words to disguise the fact it is nonsense.

Chromatic Eagle6/29/2018, 9:39:24 PM1 votes

I feel like this is needlessly confusing and too vague to be explained in a QA. Wish they showed or explained more in story.