Now there is only one question left to solve:

SaltyToplaneGoat··2 votes·1,305 views

Who gave the Targonians a crown that could enslave a being on god-level?

Seriously, the more I think about it the less sense it makes. Their great expansion and rise to power came after they enslaved him by using his power, so how could they reach this level of magical technology before?

And how does it work exactly? How do they manage to destroy random stars whenever he disobeys orders?

There is just one possibility: a powerful entity had been behind this, orchestarating Sol's enslavement from the shadows. One that might be just as powerful as Sol. The "laughing presence" maybe? I mean, the void would like him to be tied down, no doubt on that. But... there is still the possibility of a third party.

And now, what more godly beings do we have apart from Celestials and Voidborn? Simple: Aatrox. Now, this is wild speculation, but I'm worried how the Darkin fit into this mess... it might as well be a Celestial vs Darkin conflict with the Void threatening both parties equally. Or maybe they are more some kind of "wild card" in the Celestial Vs Void debacle? We clearly lack information on this!

24 Comments

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Isn't it obvious? Taric There is no other option summoner 31

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

If it was Taric the crown would have been WAAAAAAAAY more stylish. So that one's not it sadly <_<

GreenLore1 votes

Actually they were already able to visit other worlds before they enslaved Aurelion.

Keep in mind that Aurelion visited them because he thought they are worthy to be visited by him,meaning they were probably one of the most advanced races of the entire universe(and aurelions lore also calls them the most ambitious out of the ones he'd see as worthy)

Though a connection to the Darkin isn't out of question,considering that the golden boy from Leonas lore seems to be connected to the targonians and he was described as having horns and bat-wings,his description sounds a lot like a smaller golden aatrox.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Yes, but they still had been far from being a celestial empire. Their technology might been advanced, but I doubt it would have been on a level that could extinguish stars at will or inflict mind control on a being that they do not even know how its brain works.

There is a gap in being able to go to another planet and enslaving a godlike entity. A wide gap actually. To me that just looks like someone "helped" them with it, someone who knew Sol extremly well and also knew how to control him. That leaves only ancient beings and those that exist besides time...

That was more of a "generic demon" look. That could be coincidence, or not, we clearly lack informations on the Darkin...

GreenLore1 votes

However you are making the assumption here that the Targonians just learned how to travel to other planets(and well they use magic,so who knows how they do it),but we don't know how advanced they were when Sol visited them(it only said that they were already able to visit other planets and that they "sought to unravel the secrets of the universe") and we also don't know how much time sol spent with them,I mean his lore says he left "before long",but decades probably mean nothing to sol,so it is possible that they made the crown after they learned some stuff from sol.

And the thing about the "generic demon look" is that judging by Aatrox and TahmKench the darkins are the ones who look like generic demons,while the actual demons are closer to evil spirits. But of course you are right that we do lack information,so this is just a theory.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

I think I just had an enlightment about the Darkin. They are not demons, even when they look like that to us.

So, if the celestials are connected to the stars, then what kind of entity would be connected to a Black Hole, the literally DARKEST THING IN EXISTENCE? (Ya know, "Dark"-Kin?) Not even light can escape such an object. However, you cannot count these to the void, because the void is the nothiness and the absurdity of inexistence. A black hole exists and is therefore not void-related.

However, it would be also weird for them to not have some kind of sentience. If stars (=Celestial Beings) can have it, what about something that's way more powerful in terms of mass and gravity?

That would make the Darkin "fallen stars" (star -> supernova -> Black Hole) while also being a Celestials natural enemy, as a black hole might devour a star but not the other way around. And of course these "Fallen Stars" might have corporal avatars just like Pantheon...

Gravity powers would also explain how the hell Aatrox can even fly with these torn and tattered wings of his. His Q really looks like he is just pulling himself up and them rapidly falling towards the target location...

Sharjo1 votes

I'm still of the mind that "Celestials" as a race isn't really a thing; Bard, Aurelion Sol and Soraka are all distinct beings who are tied in with celestial power far more so than being the same kind of creature. I dunno if that's an actual thing but it just doesn't sit right with me for those three to all be the same race despite being so different in terms of physicallity and origin. I'm more inclined to believe that Aurelion Sol and Bard are similar kinds of beings who came in to existence at the same time, while Soraka was a creature from a world that had a strong connection with some stars and she was empowered through them. I dunno.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Calling them a "race" would be misleading, as they are in no way descibale by a vocabulary of biology.

Celestials are immaterial cosmic entities that requires a material avatar (aka host body) to interact with the world. This host body can be biological or maybe even some kind of doll (that would be Bard ). They are pretty much a mind floating through space that is bound to a star, a constellation or another object of great mass.

Aurelion Sol is a special case as he can materialize himself (at least partly, his legs are fading out).

Another special case would be Soraka: Not being a host body but a true star in a biological form. She might not be aware of this herself, but Sol knows: "Twinkle twinkle little star, do you know what you are?" That taunt is a massive hint I guess. I'm not entirely up-to-date with the lore changes, but Soraka is still a living star, no?

But how do the Darkin fit in? Well, if stars can have a mind of their own, so can Black Holes. And like that they might as well posess an avatar. In Aatrox's case I think it's the sword that has completly taken over the poor fool who touched it once.

RoodToob1 votes

For the Darkin stuff, I doubt it had anything to do with black holes, as there are only 5 Darkin. (Unless was retconned) and Black holes eventually die out and there could easily be more than 5.

As for the weapon idea, I've heard that a lot, and believe it to be true. Many people (maybe confirmed by Riot) have said demonblade tryndamere is basically what Aatrox envisionned of him, with a living sword attached to him and (potentially) controlling him

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

There is also the theory that with Tyndramere Aatrox was trying to create a new host body for him to use... After all, what would he gain from tranfering parts of his power to him? Just for the lolz of it so he can watch him murder people? Nah, don't think so.

A sword alone can't do much, it needs someone to swing it. And if I were that sword I would make sure that the one swinging it is the best possible candidate aviable.

RoodToob1 votes

True enough, because

Tryndamere "My right arm is a lot stronger than my left arm"

GreenLore1 votes

Well Bard is referred to as a spirit in his short lore,so i think that it is safe to say that he is one. Shens lore makes it clear that there are all kinds of spirits(and that demons are a kind of spirit too),so I guess that Bard is one of them.

Aurelion on the other hand is said to be a being with no real name and since he existed already since the beginning of time I'd say he is something like an "old one"(not in the sense of an old deity,but an old and really powerful being). It's difficult to say if Bard is as old as aurelion or not as his lore doesn't go into detail about his origins and we don't know anything about the origin of spirits.

Soraka is really the odd one here,she is the only one that is really described as a celestial and people started to use that name for Bard(and now Aurelion),because they thought that Bard was the same kind of being as Soraka(as he seemingly had the ability to create star constellations). However Aurelion is also considered a "celestial" dragon,so maybe there is actually some connection between the 2.

I mean Aurelions lore does mention that there were others like him,but it doesn't go into detail,so these others don't necessarily have the same appearance or powers as Aurelion.

Last but not least we have the aspects of targon who really seem a bit weird. They are a race,but actually seem more like spiritual beings,but they also inhabit space,which really makes it confusing to understand what they are. Maybe they live in another plane of existence,maybe they simply have a cloaking ability for their city,maybe their bodies are somewhere in space and their minds get transferred to mortals,we just don't know...

Sharjo1 votes

So we have Aurelion Sol, a celestial dragon, Bard, a spirit who is celestially inclined, and Soraka who's...a thing that's kinda celestial. I mean Sol's like "Do you wonder what you are?" so perhaps he has better insight on what she is.

The Targonians are difficult since there's no framework for how they operate on a physical or magical level. For our resident celestial buddies we can see how they work; Aurelion Sol's sort of a mix between material and immaterial as far as constitution goes, Soraka's pretty much physical in all aspects and Bard's completely non phyical, but the Targonians we've only ever seen them inhabit human bodies and appear as golden children.

Bard's also got weirdness surrounding him considering we have a spirit realm and celestial stuff being seemingly quite distinct; the spirit realm's tied to things like demons and faeries, where as the celestial stuff is about stars and cosmic things. I mean if we extrapolate that the spirit realm parallels the physical universe than Bard could maybe be the spirit version of celestial concept? I dunno, I'm just imagining things now trying to discern things and I figure that some kinds of power would bridge the gap between the two and be accessible to beings from both realms, so you could have beings like Soraka and Bard having similar powers while being physical and a spirit, and then have beings like Aurelion Sol who seems to transcend such concepts and exist by his own rules.

And then of course there's Aurelion Sol and Soraka, where in passing you could say that he's Soraka's grandad, but how does the connection work truly? I feel like the answer lies in stars themselves and how they operate because given how Ascension has always been described as a gift more than a power they Ascended obtained and how Soraka was guided by the stars that the stars themselves might have some kind of will of their own, and perhaps are "alive" in some way. I dunno, just throwing ideas around.

My biggest take away is that celestial power seems to be the purest kind of energy in the universe from which everything else originates from, perhaps even magic, so when you get to that level the boundaries between concepts like being alive and dead or physical and spiritual just seems to fade away. It's something that actually interests me about Xerath; his Ascension made him a being of arcane might and I wonder if his form is sort of indicative of how close he is to just transcending all forms of limitations and becoming sort of celestial in a way. Not sure if that's actually a thing though, but it's interesting to think about.

GreenLore1 votes

I think bard being kind of the spirit counter-part to the celestials would make sense.

Though what I wonder about him: If he is able to change star constellations to tell stories,does that mean that he literally takes some of sols stars and changes their location to create that image? Is sol cool with that,or would he be against it?Maybe he can't do anything about it because of the crown?

Sharjo1 votes

I'd imagine that if Aurelion Sol and Bard know each other then Bard would've just straight up asked permission to tamper with the stars for the sake of his job. If they're on good terms I'd imagine Sol would let it slide just a bit. I mean it helps that they're beings that can relate to each other, so Bard probably knows the ins and outs of actually dealing with stars with magic in a manner that's not disruptive or damaging.

GreenLore1 votes

Well its been confirmed that Darkins are not Demons(this was confirmed during Tahm Kenchs release,where it was said that TK is a demon,but not a darkin and that the 2 are seperate things) Though looking at aatrox they seem to be based on the typical demons(aatroxs character archetype was even referred to as "demon commander").

Sharjo1 votes

Given the fact that the Darkin are seemingly the only pre-human civilisation that's been hinted to be a thing, I feel like it's not the biggest stretch to speculate a connection between the Targonians and the Darkin. Maybe the Darkin are those who were left behind when their people elevated themselves beyond the stars and started colonizing other worlds, or perhaps they are a division in the faction; the Darkin warred against their Targonian brothers in a civil war and won, claiming Runeterra for themselves and forcing them out.

Hell if we wanna rope Aurelion Sol in to this too then it could be speculated that the Targonians enslaved him specifically because they were being besieged by civil war, and needed something to tip the scales in their favour. They used Aurelion to decimate their brethren on Runeterra but it left the world scarred, and so the world had to heal while only a handful of their rebellious kin remained.

I dunno just throwing stuff out there.

Chase Me Daddy1 votes

Taric wouldn't do something like this thats pretty obvious, especially because it doesn't fit his character (he is a protector not someone who would enslave a giant star dragon to abuse the powers). It really must be something or someone that is not human. Aatrox is a good guess. Already thought about him because he hasn't been seen in a while, if there will be a real war i could really think about him jumping in. But why would he give him a crown? Or maybe Pantheon?

This really makes no sense at the moment. We got our 4 aspects (Diana, Pantheon, Leona and Taric), a giant star dragon that has been enslaved but there is one thing missing that just makes this puzzle come together. Maybe Tarics new lore will hint at something. Whatever it may be, it's probably the thing that laughs.

Lovely Pants3 votes

I'm assuming Taric is going to be sent to fix the crown myself. (cause, GEMS) Whether or not he has sympathy for the creature, we've only really seen Aurelion Sol's side of the story, and even that gives doubtful evidence that he should be seen straight up as a victim.

On the subject of god level beings, a lot of us operate first from a cultural world view where gods are unapproachable creatures of power, but the tradition of mortal heroes having some capacity to challenge or interact with these otherworldly beings that affect our world isn't anything new and I think likening Runeterra's mythology to those kinds of settings puts things in a more digestible perspective.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Pantheon (the cosmical entity) is a 100% combat-freak. Not a magician who creates stuff. Also, the sun was pretty much created by the dragon, so I doubt it (as a cosmic entity) would turn against him. I think for the same reasoning we could rule out the moon entity, although that one might be suspicious... Diana is the most "mage-like" aspect until now, so the moon entity might be involved in this mess.

The "laughing presence" might be a good guess, but the Targonians would never accept something coming from the Void. On top of that the Void wants to destroy Sol AND the targonians because they are potential threats. Bringing them together wouldn't really be helping...

...

...unless it was to make them fight and eradicate each other.

Ok, so this might be a thing. But then again Sol would have noticed if there was ANY void influence on the crown. The existence of anything void related causes a conflict with the fabric reality. That's not something you can hide underneath a gold coating...

My guess is still on the Darkin for that one.

Chase Me Daddy1 votes

Yup they seem to be the most obvious option atm. Maybe we will finally know more about them and or why they would do something like giving a crown to humans that can make a creature able to forge stars a slave. But i still wanna know how Taric is exactly involved into this... Sadly we can just speculate on what is true and whats not until the reveal of the new Taric and more lore.

Lovely Pants1 votes

Condensing some other thoughts of mine which I've sometimes commented in half-jest:

I think it's better for our perspectives on Runeterra if we don't view the gap between what mortals and "gods" can achieve according to a mix of modern scientific sensibilities about how things work and our Judeo-Christian traditions of deferring to the might of the gods.

Maybe think of this like you would a D&D game. Could a wizard control a star? Well, it would take some serious epic level arcane shit, but nowhere outside the realm of possibility. A star in a fantasy setting may be more in the scale of ancient world views. Something which might very well be plucked from the sky by a mystic eagle or such, for example. Obviously find a better explanation than "A wizard did it" if you can, but I'm not going to bat an eyelid if my GM tells me that.

Or even consider more animistic mythologies where measly mortals can combat beings of near unfathomable power through summoning and banishing rituals. The celestial beings of Runeterra I don't think are so out of reach as we're trying to think of them.

Vistha Kai1 votes

It's simple.

Institute of War was behind t- Summoners are omnipoten-

Oh, wait.

DucksAreMagical1 votes

No the only question left would be.

Why remove Grave's Cigar?!?!?!?

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