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So, i'm thinking, or trying to, of a champion concept..

ZenithEevee··2 votes·666 views

But I cant decide what to go with... I mean... I have one idea, but its hard to think of actual skills... anyways..

Melee/Ranged hybrid (Yes, I know, people hate these, but hear it out) Pure AD ratio, no need for AP. Resourceless or uses energy. I HATE dealing with mana, and energy is a lot easier to use. Passive.

I'm thinking either gains damage for a % of armor, or gains armor for a % of damage...

Q: 1: point and click. this is the melee skill, and I'm thinking something similar to a dash and/or stun/slow 2: Skill shot: Ranged, penetrates through the first enemy and deals half damage to the 2nd.

W: 1:Melee skill: Buff: Gains an AA buff that heals. 2:Ranged: Toggle: gains +100 ranged on auto attacks when on, and gains +50% attack speed when off. (AS is willing to change)[Weapon design will be discussed after finalizing]

E: Melee: This will be the standard Damage dealing attack, dealing true damage at a % Of AD, or a % of enemy health. Ranged: This will be a Knock back, which slows for 1 second (At lvl1) and deals damage.

R: This is where I get confused the most, but this is my over all idea on this... 60 second cooldown, available at lvl 1. While in melee: Dashes to an enemy then kicks back out of melee range, after wards turns into a ranged champion. (Can be used on allies without kick-back) While in ranged: Jumps onto the enemy, rooting them for one second and switching to melee, next AA against enemy champ deals 2x damage.

{Side note: I will work on the actual concept, including lore, if this gets atleast 15+. I know its a high quest, but I really need to have an opinion based answer of whether or not I should go through with it) Opinions?

for those who want a further analysis You can click here

7 Comments

TheDeathstalker1 votes

So, hi, I'm TheDeathstalker, and I have this terrible habit of showing up for a few weeks every year and reviewing the crap out of champion ideas before disappearing again. That said, I'm not really used to this new forum, and feel that, if nothing else, it doesn't provide a good environment for these discussions, where the order of the discussion matters, and the forum moving slowly is a good thing, rather than flying by due to Up/Down votes all over.

Anyway, enough about everything but you, and onto the idea you have. A few key points to start out with:

  1. Switching between Melee and Ranged, or for that matter, having any champion who has a variable skillset is not a bad thing. It just requires a certain level of finesse to work right. I know most of the ideas in this are out-dated (which is to say, the design flavor of LoL has changed since it was done), but there is a whole lot of good learning way back in this thread: Champcraft Challenge Mk I . There's a lot of neat things to learn there, and quite a few brilliant takes on the idea. Good place to go scrumming for ideas when you really develop this guy

  2. Be very careful when you choose to use a non-standard resource pool for your champion's abilities (Energy, in this case). There are very specific reasons as to why champions use mana, energy, rage, or whatever, and their design must be very different because of it. Energy, in its core design, is a means to manage burst on champions who otherwise should not be concerned with sustain. You want to design a champion that needs to use their skills together, but if that combo fails or is misplayed, can easily be beat by another champion using Mana who has been managing it properly. Take, for example, Zed. His abilities all work together, and need to be used together, but he needs to be careful with them as once he has spent all his energy in the engagement, he has no way out. A good Zed will, if he cannot win the engage, keep a clone back and save enough energy to switch with it and get out. Be careful with it, as it's not the easiest thing to get right.

I think that covers the really general stuff, without getting into abilities... let me double check. Oh, yes, that's something...

  1. Your champion needs weaknesses! This is one of the hardest things to get right with a champion that has a dual kit (ranged and melee), especially if you're going to say they don't have any AP ratios, and that Armor adds Damage, or vice versa. Even without touching the skills, you've decided a very simple build path for the champion without much counter-play potential other than an AP nuking you out (But you're energy and do better in burst anyway!?). Decide the primary role of your champion idea, then see what common strength/weakness combos are for them, and make sure you have what you want, and intentionally work weaknesses into this champion so they can be played against. This is best done subtly, rather than saying "upon taking 10% of his health in magic damage, he loses 10% armor" or something. You want to build weaknesses by contrast, by, say, giving him only the ability to engage, but not disengage. Or High damage, but no sustain (I see you, W that gives health on an auto attack), and moreover, because of the design direction you need to have potentially different weaknesses depending on which form he is in.

  2. And, because I'm really getting in the groove, you (almost!) NEVER want to put the ability to switch between your melee and ranged abilities on a 60s cooldown. It limits player choice with the exception of that one crazy combo you can do, but only once in a long while. Make it interesting, make it fun.

I could say a lot more (A LOT), but I've hit the character limit, so I'm going to stop for now.

Keep working on this guy though, I want to see it, don't just skip out because you didn't get enough upvotes. Never was that kind of community here. I'll review whatever you make, if I can figure out how to find it :)

ZenithEevee1 votes
  1. And, because I'm really getting in the groove, you (almost!) NEVER want to put the ability to switch between your melee and ranged abilities on a 60s cooldown. It limits player choice with the exception of that one crazy combo you can do, but only once in a long while. Make it interesting, make it fun.

Well, that's kinda what the weakness I'm looking for on him/her. While, I don't naturally look for weaknesses to make on a champ, that's like looking at a human being for their flaw. I mean, its a bad comparison, but, if you think about it, if I looked for champs based on their weaknesses, I would have bought Jinx over Sejuani, Talon over Riven, Garen over Annie (And trust me, Garen is ALWAYS viable) And probably would have saved up for Jinx over buying Teemo. (I'm still saving up for jinx)

Something something, Resources, something something

I am not a resource person, I mean, if you seen my biggest champ selection through out my league life, you'd notice that. (I mean, literally, I'd take Riven over Jax against anyone, just because i'll only have to worry about life sustain)

And honestly, seeing how you cant Build energy, I find it a perfect resource for someone as a limit, however, something more like a rage bar would probably fit him better, but ofcoarse with more.. "Restrictions"

Weaknesses

As I said in my first point, I don't look for weaknesses, but instead of nerfs to secretly buff other areas. i mean, as i said, this is a beta concept, and doesn't contain stats. i'll try to link the official one here if you'd like to check on it later.

also, sorry if i sound like I'm butchering what you said...

TheDeathstalker2 votes

Hey no worries about butchering things. We all see things differently, it's why we post stuff rather than just let an idea sit in our own head.

So, and this is a general point, rather than a 100% correct point, but when you're talking about weaknesses in a champion, they aren't supposed to be visible, blatant, or even something someone would look at before buying the champ and go "oh cool". They're subtle, and meant to never be something a player would be frustrated by, rather they're meant to be natural. Dumb real life example, a heavyset linebacker in football is viewed for his strength, that's why he's put in that kind of position, but, simply by nature, he is not fast, and that's a natural weakness of his. Assassins have a natural weakness of only dealing single target damage, ADCs have a natural weakness of being killed if caught out alone (There are varying ways to do this though, such as a lack of escape, being incredibly squishy, etc).

What you don't want as a weakness is inflexibility. Someone should be able to move effortlessly within their specific area of expertise. Long cooldowns are a bad form of weakness because they limit "fun" (and yes, that's a huge thing in terms of design). The most fun way to play this champion would be to be able to use everything at my disposal as often as I can. Now, because that's completely overpowered, we have to have some limits, yes, but those limits should always look at their cost in terms of player fun. It is always more fun to be able to do more things (Mostly), it is always less fun to know half of your toys are being kept from you.

Anyway, moving away from that dead horse, a point about resources...

It ultimately doesn't matter that much. It is better design to use the resources as their inherent strengths and weaknesses suggest, but most of the time someone reading your champion isn't going to see the difference, or even notice it costs energy rather than mana. Rage is a bit different, because you can build specifically around it in cool ways, but energy/mana, very few people will notice.

That doesn't mean any champion wouldn't be better with a more intentional design, but I'm saying I'm not gonna 'take points off' for the final design on it. Not that I have points to give. Or take. ...

Anyway, yeah, post it up whenever you've got the time, and I'll take another look. Thanks for reading my obnoxiously long posts...

ZenithEevee1 votes

Anyway, yeah, post it up whenever you've got the time, and I'll take another look. Thanks for reading my obnoxiously long posts...

I honestly enjoy reading long posts..

Anyways, added the further specs in a link on the first post.

Elphrihaim1 votes

At first I thought you meant something like her...

But since you don't, I would suggest actually starting with the character.

What sort of person would need to be able to fight well both up close as well as from a distance?

How would they come to that conclusion?

What sort of moves combine well, that are best done one at range and one in melee?

Then take those and create a kit from that. Again, in my opinion.

[Also, standard melee range is 125, 600 range is about the range of Annie's Q. Since the champion has access to both melee and ranged stances, they should have +0 or +0.75 MR per level and not +1.25 MR (Jayce and Nidalee used to have +0.75 MR per level). Champion MS is 325-355. Your other stats are also pretty high, 450+80 HP -> 1890 HP... but with 81 Armor, 600 attack range... <_<" But drafts are drafts, yes?

Also I really hope you meant 0.625 attack speed and not 6.25 because 6.25 as = 6 and 1/4ths attacks per second...

850 dash range is absolutely ridiculous. Most dashes are <600 range, Fizz' E is 850 range if he uses both casts and has enough MS, Akali's ult has ~900 range... And this is on a basic ability, not something that is meant to be held back / is an ultimate. Oh, and a 2 second CD. Why even bother running?]

You shouldn't skip out on resources just because making a champion manage a resource is somewhat difficult. Get creative with it-- For example, a mana-user that has an incredibly tiny mana pool and equally small costs creates somebody that becomes functionally manaless if they build a single mana item such as Iceborn Gauntlet. Somebody that builds their resource from combat, but can maintain or lose it, getting different advantages based on the amount of the resource they had when entering combat. It could loop-- once it hits a maximum, it begins being lost until it goes down to 0, then builds again...

Having something to manage lets a player demonstrate their skill-- but it also adds ways to balance a champion out. While I agree with you that spamming abilities is fun, and that managing resources can be hard, it should be that successfully managing your resources feels like a reward, a treat, a great success.

ZenithEevee1 votes

At first I thought you meant something like her...

But since you don't, I would suggest actually starting with the character.

What sort of person would need to be able to fight well both up close as well as from a distance?

How would they come to that conclusion?

What sort of moves combine well, that are best done one at range and one in melee?

Then take those and create a kit from that. Again, in my opinion.

[Also, standard melee range is 125, 600 range is about the range of Annie's Q. Since the champion has access to both melee and ranged stances, they should have +0 or +0.75 MR per level and not +1.25 MR (Jayce and Nidalee used to have +0.75 MR per level). Champion MS is 325-355. Your other stats are also pretty high, 450+80 HP -> 1890 HP... but with 81 Armor, 600 attack range... <_<" But drafts are drafts, yes?

Also I really hope you meant 0.625 attack speed and not 6.25 because 6.25 as = 6 and 1/4ths attacks per second...

850 dash range is absolutely ridiculous. Most dashes are <600 range, Fizz' E is 850 range if he uses both casts and has enough MS, Akali's ult has ~900 range... And this is on a basic ability, not something that is meant to be held back / is an ultimate. Oh, and a 2 second CD. Why even bother running?]

You shouldn't skip out on resources just because making a champion manage a resource is somewhat difficult. Get creative with it-- For example, a mana-user that has an incredibly tiny mana pool and equally small costs creates somebody that becomes functionally manaless if they build a single mana item such as Iceborn Gauntlet. Somebody that builds their resource from combat, but can maintain or lose it, getting different advantages based on the amount of the resource they had when entering combat. It could loop-- once it hits a maximum, it begins being lost until it goes down to 0, then builds again...

Having something to manage lets a player demonstrate their skill-- but it also adds ways to balance a champion out. While I agree with you that spamming abilities is fun, and that managing resources can be hard, it should be that successfully managing your resources feels like a reward, a treat, a great success.

Did a bit of rebalancing with the stats,

Also, bump for more opinions.

ZenithEevee1 votes

Bump

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