Boards›Concepts & Creations

@Riot Is there even a point?

antymattar·12/6/2015, 12:20:50 PM·62 votes·5,962 views

DISCLAIMER: I posted it in the creations forum because I thought it was fitting.

I mean, in a recent question to Zenon as to what they do with champion suggestions was: > Player feedback is great for us when it comes to what works or what doesn't work. What frustrates you, how does a certain spell make you feel, etc. When it comes to suggestions for what should be done, in 99% of cases we don't really look at them. Sorry if this comes across as mean, but we have designers with years and years of experience who'll still come up with the wrong solutions half the time. Our design process is highly iterative. Identify a problem, form a hypothesis, attempt to prove or disprove the hypothesis through playtesting, adjust your solution, rinse and repeat. A single "solution" presented in a vacuum does us no good at all.

What he's essentially avoiding saying but implying is that nobody from Riot is interested in your designs. Nobody at Riot will ever read these ideas. And I'm not saying that because I, for some reason, hate people coming up with cool new champion concepts. No. Some of you are fucking amazing. I, at one point, also liked designing new champs and items, but there's no point to doing it. If you will notice, the only threads where Riot ever responds are the ones where it's either a pretty skin and the image is instantly visible, it's something basic that's in one line like "Make Malzahars voidlings scratch themselves when idle like puppies" or just something that's a borderline meme about Graves' cigar or something.

And that makes me sad. No Zenon, some ideas are in a vacuum, yes, but sometimes, there are genuinely genius ideas out there that are so obvious that they are worth at least TESTING. Wana improve your image within the community? imagine this situation and follow it up:

Go to an interesting suggestion thread that actually has something interesting(These threads exist ever so often), take an idea. Suppose someone is proposing a TARIC rework where he has a new ability. Suppose someone is proposing a new mechanic or something even. Then TAKE that mechanic and TRY IT OUT. If that seems to time intensive then do it only for like the most interesting ideas out there. THESE EXIST. Post a response, do something! Make a blog maybe that details what you are testing out. SHOW US the half made kits of champions you are making so that people can see them, make a blog.

Just do something to make it at least SEEM like the dev and rework teams are not completely closed off and don't really give a shit about anything someone else might have to say.

I used to want to work at Riot when I furst learned about it. It seemed like a great company with open-minded people who are not bound by the shitty hierarchical corporate bullshit of other companies, but in the end as time goes on you seem to retain the same attitude of those companies. We know better, we do anything and everything not any longer because we like it, but because we must maintain the image that we give a shit about our community, we must maintain the game to completely facilitate the Esports scene while disregarding the average player-base because thats what 99.99% of the players are, right? We must not include better toxic user pruning as that might eliminate potential buyers of RP.

FUCK. I have worked on projects using c++, java, python, MySQL, php and Javascript. You can't tell me that making a blog with just some pictures is HARD. You can't say that replying to a thread is HARD. You have people who can do that. If not, then hire them!

/Rant

I'm just at an all time low. I'm sick, my code isn't working, I don't wana cook food and I'm downright feeling like nothing has a point. Previously I would make concepts for champion reworks, but what's the fucking point...

79 Comments

ModThe Djinn12/6/2015, 4:41:35 PM17 votes

{quoted} I mean, in a recent question to Zenon as to what they do with champion suggestions was: Player feedback is great for us when it comes to what works or what doesn't work. What frustrates you, how does a certain spell make you feel, etc. When it comes to suggestions for what should be done, in 99% of cases we don't really look at them. Sorry if this comes across as mean, but we have designers with years and years of experience who'll still come up with the wrong solutions half the time. Our design process is highly iterative. Identify a problem, form a hypothesis, attempt to prove or disprove the hypothesis through playtesting, adjust your solution, rinse and repeat. A single "solution" presented in a vacuum does us no good at all.

This is pretty accurate though. About the only thing that might be useful is a superbly well-crafted suggestion related to a current problem champion that does a point-by-point addressing of the problem, proposes several possible directions, and then deeply discusses the pros and cons of different solutions targeted in those individual directions.

And, on this board, such a post would likely end up down-voted with no explanation, meaning Riot is unlikely to ever see it -- people often seem like they're here to just get told their idea is great. That's fine, but it's not really a forum worth Riot's time to sift through.

If we want Riot comments, we have to earn them -- we have to have DISCUSSIONS about the problem, not merely suggest solutions. We have to figure out the "WHY" and the "WHAT," and be aware that Riot may not worry about our "HOW."

As they said -- even the most experienced designers fail to hit the mark much of the time.

AND REMEMBER: He said they don't look at 99% of ideas. I'd hazard even that number is a little lenient. But the take-away here is that there are SOME ideas they do look at. Making those stand out (and getting the proper forum attention to them) is important.

People need to stop down-voting things they disagree with, and upvote good, reasoned discussion and well-created suggestions instead, provided they can be defended. I may not LIKE your Urgot rework, but if it's mechanically solid and has a good conversation behind it I should upvote it.

Save the downvotes for badly conceived or hacked together ideas, or posts where the creator isn't taking any feedback or listening to any thoughts. MAKE THIS A FORUM WORTH VISITING.

I used to want to work at Riot when I furst learned about it. It seemed like a great company with open-minded people who are not bound by the shitty hierarchical corporate bullshit of other companies, but in the end as time goes on you seem to retain the same attitude of those companies. We know better, we do anything and everything not any longer because we like it, but because we must maintain the image that we give a shit about our community, we must maintain the game to completely facilitate the Esports scene while disregarding the average player-base because thats what 99.99% of the players are, right? We must not include better toxic user pruning as that might eliminate potential buyers of RP.

Trust me: Riot is exactly that. I've been there twice for interviews, and their company environment is like nothing I've seen anywhere else. Everyone is incredibly intelligent, clearly passionate, and they love this game as much or more than we do. It shows in everything I saw.

FUCK. I have worked on projects using c++, java, python, MySQL, php and Javascript. You can't tell me that making a blog with just some pictures is HARD. You can't say that replying to a thread is HARD. You have people who can do that. If not, then hire them!

If the people who reply to a thread aren't the design / development team, about all they can really say is "cool idea." The guys and girls who work on the design / dev side of things are super busy -- they don't really have the time to work on anything but their current projects. Hiring people solely to respond to the community concepts boards isn't really a good use of time or money, I think.

Previously I would make concepts for champion reworks, but what's the fucking point...

Fun. Entertainment. Challenge. Design practice. Things to put in a portfolio (I know I did). Things to discuss at interviews. There are a number of incredible reasons...it's just that "So Riot will use it" isn't really a practical one.

Espy Psyche12/6/2015, 3:39:26 PM4 votes

Except they DO actually take ideas from the boards. Here's some examples:

Star Guardian Lux PROJECT: Lucian/Fiora/Zed/Yi/Leona Debonair Ezreal Gentleman Gnar Battle Bunny Riven

These are just the ones I know off the top of my head that were generated from user content. There might be more.

JacctheInsomniac12/6/2015, 8:27:09 PM4 votes

[deleted]

Ariel the Cruel12/6/2015, 2:40:02 PM2 votes

Actually, their answer has improved. If you're talking about concepts for new champions, items, abilities, etc. then it becomes complicated. They can't just up and take ideas the community presents because of a bunch of legal non-sense. Most [not all] companies are like this. It's also why [add concept here to game] submissions also tend to come with 6-page long legal documents; so you can't come back and seek compensation or claim abuse of the idea. That's not to say they never take inspiration or just happen to have very similar ideas (see river duck). But it's effectively walking on egg shells.