A Karma Rework: Bringing Back the Fans

Fini of Legend·1/21/2019, 5:10:14 PM·8 votes·3,418 views

I know her rework is already in the works and may even be in the final stages, but I wanted to see what people would think of bringing back more of her older aspects and making her more of a mage support rather than giving her new mechanics and making her more of a support mage, which is what I feel that Riot is doing.

I want Karma to have more duality and aspects to her kit in general like her original design, except less awkward. Think of her old W and Q. It can deal damage to enemies and slow them and also speed up allies that it touches, target enemy or ally, and speed up Karma. Her current W only targets an enemy and damages and/or snares them if successful, though there is some gameplay to it because of its range and 1.5 second delay. However, her old W was awkward to use. Also, her old Q was a cone that could heal and damage allies, but its range was somewhat low and awkward for squishy ranged Karma. Her shield felt really bare, being the only shield at the time that only shielded and nothing else, and her shield bomb was considered toxic design. Also, the comeback nature of her kit, which is suiting to her name, should be emphasized a bit more, which this rework hopes to accomplish.

  • Mantra E - Shield bomb is returned. Deals decent damage and stuns for 0.75 seconds.

Why stun on her Mantra E? This is because Karma has always felt lacking in the hard CC department, even with the snare. The stun is not too strong because it is accompanied by changes to her Mantra and Mantra W and it is fairly brief.

Anyway, her shield bomb is finally back, and it is non-toxic in many ways. The radius isn't that large, Karma can not shield minions like the original Karma, and finally:

  • R - Gathering Fire passive moved here but adjusted, overall the uptime of Mantra is lowered
  • Karma no longer starts the game with Mantra at level 1
  • There is a small global CD added to her Mantra

The above changes are to make her ultimate more of an ultimate so that the strength of her Mantra's can be increased. The small global CD informs enemies that she is about to use an empowered ability so that there is a little more involvement on their part. Keeping mantra at level 1 is in retrospect one of the lesser aspects of Karma's kit that Riot decided to keep that I feel would need to be removed for the return of her shield bomb and changes to her other Mantras as seen below. Also, the early Mantra Q cheese can be frustrating to enemy players.

  • W - Now can target allies including herself granting damage reduction
  • Mantra W - grants healing on top of damage reduction on allies
  • On enemy: heals Karma the same amount as above, but the bonus root duration is removed
  • The healing is now a flat amount plus AP and a % of missing hp and heals over three ticks

The return of an interactive tether line is an interesting change that I would like, but is historically an incredibly difficult goal that I couldn't reach. However, Karma can now target allies again and buff them with her W.

The reason I chose damage reduction was because it seemed a good fit. The 1.5 second duration is fairly short, making this ability more of a counter for burst which requires quick thinking and/or reaction on Karma's end for the most part, adding skill. Additionally, I divided the healing over three ticks because now that the normal ability grants damage reduction it seemed like the initial healing needed to be reduced to maintain balance.

The bonus root duration was removed because it seemed annoying, and the removal was also compensation for the shield bomb stun in a way.

Finally, the healing change will benefit mage support Karma more while still healing more the lower hp she is. This also means the ability no longer has to heal very poorly unless Karma has a decent amount of missing health. Now that the uptime of her Mantra is down and it is unavailable before level 6, enemy players don't have to worry about her Mantra W being used for sustain if the numbers are changed in this way, though it still can be used for sustain if the player so chooses. Her Mantra W being used for sustain is somewhat of a concern, even though its current downtime is still pretty long, because Karma having a decent amount of everything and not enough cons would be overpowered.

  • Mantra Q - Detonation deals more damage

The detonation of Mantra Q is trickier and/or riskier to land in general and should be satisfying to land and a threat throughout the game. Plus, I wanted her Mantra to be more of an ultimate which I feel is less awkward and strengthening this ability would go along with that.

  • Passive - Some new passive

There are a number of passives that Karma could have, so long as it isn't too powerful, and I couldn't make up my mind. Maybe it should have something to do with Karma's auto attacks, as Karma's kit is surprisingly good for getting in auto attacks and it feels good getting them in, but it doesn't have to have anything to do with her auto attacks.

I would like to hear others thoughts about either this rework, or just the above goals in general, because personally I don't want to be that Karma player who just spams the giant shields, as with when Karma had 1.1 AP Mantra E plus ultimate hat, aery, etc., or who just bops people with Mantra Q's initial hit, or just spams Mantra W. I want to be the skillful, nuanced enchanter mage that I know Karma can be.

edit: Looking more at NeuroCat's rework, I realize that she already touched Karma's passive in a similar way as suggested above, though I'm not sure how to feel about Soul's Alight, but after some thought and discussion with Sass I realized that perhaps the simplest way to go for her W would be:

W on ally (not including self) cast - Reduce CDs like NeuroCat is doing Mantra W on other ally - Grants missing mana and missing hp Mantra W on enemy cast - grants missing mana and missing hp, bonus root duration reduced or removed

The brief knockback seems more fun and interesting than the brief stun so her Mantra E should probably be a brief knockback instead. Also, briefly knocking enemies away slightly from the target reduces its obnoxiousness with certain combos, generally. Oh, and as Sass pointed out, the Mantra E bonus shielding should be nerfed, but not necessarily removed. So in total, her Mantra E should probably grant some bonus shielding, deal some damage, and knockback briefly.

6 Comments

FakeGravity1/21/2019, 6:37:06 PM3 votes

honestly i would prefer she have two damage skills and her shield, that mantra turn into 1 damage skills and two support skills, i like the damage reduction on W, and the stun on the shield, maybe mantra could cause the shield to shift into a bomb that stuns, and the W to change into an ally transfer of energy kind of skill, then we change her Q into less damage with mantra and instead a zoning tool? this would fit her two paths kind of lore, and let her damaging skills be useful outside of mantra Q, regular Q can even be the explosive zone now with longer colddown and a bit less damage?

Sassmast3r1/21/2019, 6:47:17 PM3 votes

I like the ideas you're bringing to the table here.

In regards to E, I honestly don't think a full-blown shield bomb with as much power as it had pre-rework should ever come back, but I do agree that it should do some amount of damage (or perhaps apply a debuff instead) to nearby enemies. I also like your idea that it should CC people immediately near it. I've always been disappointed whenever I successfully shield a target with her Mantra'd E, but despite the powerful shield, the enemies were able to stand right next to them and CC them so hard that there was nothing I could do. I would gladly take a significant shield nerf for her Mantra'd E in exchange for maybe... a .25 or .5 second knockback? It can't be anything insanely powerful, but enough to actually feel like an overflowing shield pushing enemies back.

I agree that her current passive needs to be switched onto her R, and that it should be nerfed. Her R should not be up as frequently as it is right now, because it's very obnoxious to lane against Karma knowing that her R is up practically whenever she needs it. This is partially due to how much CDR is in the game right now and how accessible it is, but regardless, it needs some nerfs. Can I ask what you mean by "Global CD?" Do you mean like Karthus ultimate, where people can predict when he's casting it with the dark magic above their heads? Do you mean all the enemies should hear her incantations?

I don't think Karma's W should grant damage reduction if we're going to reimplement an ally cast. I fear this lacks counterplay, and would make Karma even more frustrating to go against. Now, if we made her allied W split 20/30/40/50/60% of the damage an ally takes onto her for a short time, I suppose that's fine, but I'm afraid that Karma would then be pushed into a tankier build to compensate. I honestly love Neuro's idea for CDR being applied to an ally, and when mantra'd, perhaps a small health restore. The problem is all about risk; what is Karma losing by using her Mantra on an ally rather than an enemy? Her W is easily the hardest ability in her kit to balance.

I absolutely agree that the detonation on Karma's mantra'd Q should do WAY more damage. Nerf the initial hit damage, add damage to that. Enemies would actually put forth the effort to move out of the zone if it was intimidating.

Pisces StarChild1/22/2019, 2:53:41 PM3 votes

If she wasn't reworked years ago, given that Riot now has a hold on how to successfully rework champions while keeping their identities intact, I'm sure she would've retained one of the main themes that made her appealing to players such as myself back then which was the fact that her abilities could impact both allies and enemies at the same time. I'm not sure they'd approve giving damage back to the shield with its current form but I do like the idea of it having a mini-cc effect like a mini-stun or knock-back. That would improve her ability in saving allies or herself when they're being focused hard. The shield (and speed boost) sometimes isn't enough when the enemy team has lots of CC. I feel that's all that karma is missing at the moment (a strong CC) to compete with other supports (or mages) that have more than one hard CC in their kits.

ODiiiiiN1/22/2019, 3:06:03 PM1 votes

Karma is being reworked? I thought Kayle and Morg were coming out next. Dude.. champs like: Corki Vladimir Kassadin Fiddlesticks Anivia Need to be reworked (Mind you i dont play any of them, but its obvious). Champs that play and look outdated af. Not Karma... Her Q does insane dmg, she has CC, and I save countless lives with her shield because of the speed boost the ally gets. Doesn't stop much dmg but it sure gets them the hell out of there so they dont take any more. And she looks amazing, her Sun Goddess, Warden, and regular old skin all look top notch. Actually most of her skins do. Shes visually and mechanically up to date she dont need no rework.