Teemo Rework suggestion

Clankaempfer··5 votes·5,588 views

Hey, a friend and I were recently considering a Teemo ReworkTeemo . In our deliberations we had also considered the approach of Riot, which was ultimately not transferred to the live servers. We also wondered why he needed a rework and what his current strengths are. At this point we realized that his kit is pretty outdated. As his strengths we thought, first of all he can create global pressure and vision through his mushrooms, but that wasn't the real thing, it was rather that he can use them to seal off an area, e.g. the baron pit. Then we created the following idea for a rework:

Passive - We thought that we would move the dot from the E to the passive, as Riot did. However, we keep the invisibility in bushes and when standing still, but remove the attack speed bonus. The dot damage would then scale with the level and get an ap-scaling.

Q - With his blind dart we saw the problem is that it's really very simple and since Teemo has very little waveclear we thought we'd make it a skill shot, a blinding mushroom grenade that would do AoE damage and blind targets that were hit, as an example you could take Corki's Q, but not leave a blinding cloud behind. The skill damage would probably need to be reduced a bit.

W - As his mobility spell, we would like to keep his passive movement speed, which cools for a moment on damage from other champions. However, the active doubling of the passive movement speed was too outdated, so we thought we'd give him some sort of dash to do this, where Teemo would run to a location quickly, but he can't run over walls and the speed of the dash would probably scale with his movement speed.

E - With the E, we took a risk by moving his R, the mushrooms, to this skill, but then the damage would definitely have to be adjusted. Consequently, you would only have the mushrooms on the skill.

R - In the end, the Ultimate brought the biggest changes. We wanted to increase the strength of his ability to occupy areas, so we thought that by activating R, we would create a large area where his mushrooms would get a damage bonus and the cooldown and mana cost of those would be reduced when Teemo is in the area. Also, while in the area, he would get an attack speed bonus and he would camouflage after 1.5s (the detection radius could be as large as with the Twitch Q), so if he goes into a bush, he will immediately become invisible if he is already camouflaged (going out of the bush would mean that he is immediately back in camouflage). The 1.5s in which he camouflages are interrupted if he gets damage during this time, so that another 1.5s must pass without damage. If he leaves the area while he is camouflaged, he will be visible again immediately. Attacks and abilities interrupt the camouflage. The area would then be active for maybe 30s. And the attack speed bonus as well as the mushroom cooldown and damage bonus would then scale with the R Level.

Please let us know what you think of this idea as a rework :)

21 Comments

DerFeiind3 votes

Really Nice idea. I think Teemo needs a rework pretty bad and this is a nice kit idea. Its mechanically interesting and not just pressing leftclick and Q. Riot saw they have to rework him in the past and now maybe they can finally do it. Nice suggestion btw.

Temperatur2 votes

How far should the area of the ultimate go?

Clankaempfer1 votes

Good question, it should be tested first, but you could take the Corki package W range as range for his ultimate, but a bit smaller probably.

Teemo Hee Hee2 votes

As your ideas for the rework are nice, they're a bit too big and the teemo community wouldn't agree with that. I think a smaller change would be better. I have a few ideas that aren't as overwhelming.

Passive- it shouldn't be changed much, but the timer should be shorter if you're in a bush. Maybe a smaller attack speed bonus to even is out. it might be good to think of giving it a short cd, like 5 seconds

Q- one of teemo's pluses is that he can effectively poke over walls or through minions, so make it a skill shot wouldn't make much sense. I think making it better would be to change the blind into more of a graves w where it removes vision of allies and enemies with a shorter duration but a AP duration scaling (a small one). Removing the poison effect and making the e its poison would also be nice. It should probably keep its cd

W- this is a very outdated ability. I think the Passive should stay but for an active, he should perform a dodge roll able to go through walls and minions, with a length a bit longer than Aatrox's e. It might make sense to make him untargetable for that duration, but since the dodge is quick it would be difficult to time it correctly. A drawback could be maybe he could only dodge in front or behind him, or even only to the sides. As i'm writing this i realized this is just the fizz jump without the damage. Just tossing a cd out there... 8 seconds?

E- This ability seems fine as it can make him able to build AP auto attack and AD. Maybe a slightly higher AP scale. It might be good to test out having it be an active ability like jinx's rockets, consuming mana on every shot. Just a small idea and if it were to be an active, it should be stronger

R- This shouldn't e changed but maybe lower the AP scale and a higher base damage, making it do higher but more predictable damage. Another thing, we all know that the r has a 1 second activation time, but what if it didn't? I'm not saying you can throw it at them and explode their hp bar though, it would be much weaker if it was activated within the 1 second time window, and the window could be changed to 2 seconds. maybe half damage and half of the slow duration or a lesser slow.

These ideas aren't meant to suddenly make him stronger, because that just wouldn't make teemo teemo. This is to adjust him into the current meta and I personally do not want to lose his originality. Unlike the voli and fiddle reworks (those ones will probably have big changes), they don't have much of a player base whilst there is a large teemo community. These large reworks are meant for champions that have fallen into the abyss, and teemo is in no way at that point yet but i couldn't bear to see him reach that point. That's why he needs a smaller rework, like the one wukong got.Teemo

Diagon1971 votes

How about just remove teemo from the game and refund everyone riot points instead.

Clankaempfer1 votes

Nah, I don't like that option

Blue Shift1 votes

This isn't really fixing any portion of him or addressing any of his issues as you previously stated.

His issues are:

Blind is far too effective paired with his movement speed bonuses at dealing with melee champions. Kiting + chasing down enemies.

He is quite tanky for a ranged carry who can also build AP items (AP items being much stronger than AD).

His range is too high with Q + auto, which allows for incredibly abusive lanes against melees.

His ult gives too much disengage against melee champions due to the damage + slow (slow being a major component into his damage for his first item liandrys). The fact that ult slows means Teemo gets a lot of free damage off, as well as being able to save his blind for when they actually reach him, allowing for 5 ish seconds of just free damage before a melee can return any.

All in all, he is extremely effective at fucking over melee champions at almost all points in the game due to his kit's versatility, where at no point in the game does a Darius, Garen, etc... beat him.

I would say a better direction to head in would be lowering his effective at fucking over melees and shifting him more towards a more even kit, where his niche of being a mobile stealth champion who relies on traps is kept.

Ranged = less tanky

AP = less base damage, more item dependancy

Remove slow on ult or reduce it's effectiveness (either duration or amount)

Change E damage (gives you the option to on-hit or AP, not both. Ex: Lower on-hit AP scaling or remove it)

Exodus2471 votes

They tried to remove or lessen the ult slow and it made him unplayable, but the rest of the changes you say make a valid point. I would keep the blind tho, since its one of the last, and its a good counter spell. The movespeed and kiting is more the issue for that id think. E i would just make pure DoT, sorta like how id change kennens w to JUST have the active effect and not the auto attack passive, but compensate it somehow.

Blue Shift1 votes

Something I didn't even really think about until just now.

Most melee champions have auto related abilities that are pretty important to their kits, which blind completely nullifies, it's not just "oh they can't auto for a bit". Examples:

Darius W, Garen Q, Olaf W, Camille Q, etc...

Blind only affecting autos and not auto related abilities might give some more counterplay to him.

Also yeah, nerfing a major part of a champions kit with no proper re-balancing is gonna gut a champion.

Exodus2471 votes

Ill half agree with you, any attack thats an empowered auto should be blinded, because it is STILL an auto, but stuff like olafs w? Thats a buff to his autos, annd blind doesnt affect it directly, and i know it sounds similiar, but its 2 different things.

Clankaempfer1 votes

Hey, First of all, i want to thank you for taking the time to write your opinion about this rework idea. I really appreciate it. I'm sorry for the late reply as I was quite busy the last days.

I don't know how much you played with/against/as him. I can only talk about my experience with him (high silver - low gold elo)

I see your point regarding his health but compared to other marksman he is as squishy as them: Base health Lv 1: Teemo - 528 (https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Teemo) Twitch - 582 (https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Twitch) Aphelios - 500 (https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Aphelios) Caitlyn - 481 (https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Caitlyn) Varus - 500 (https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Varus) Lucian - 571 (https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Lucian)

My experience playing him supports this as he often only barely survive against tanky brusiers like garen/darius/renekton if they get too close. His ult may give him some disengage but if they dodge the shrooms, they can easily catch up to him and his slow doesn't matter if he gets pulled to the enemy (Darius E) or if they simply dash towards him (Camilie E) even Garen can remove being slowed! If you look again to his base stats, he is very squishy for a 500 unit ranged champ (-> Twitch and Lucian have about 570-580Hp). Playing as Teemo you need to focus on your position otherwise you die very fast. He only gets tanky through items so he can't buy as much ap. Blinding your enemy is strong, i agree, but League of Legends is a game like rock-paper-scissors, some champions counter other champions. Teemo counters meele champions to a certain extend but he has counters too! And blinds can easily be cleansed by cleanse (summoner spell) or by qss! For example:

  • Ryze
  • Mordekaiser
  • Vladimir And other ability based champions

He is screwed if a champion catchs up to him and use cc on him because he can't just dash away. This often results in burning flash. His Lane 1v1 potential is definitely very strong but his 1v2 is very weak and he has problems to run away if there are no shrooms. Teemo may can good kite and chase down enemies but other champions can do it even better:

  • Vayne (you can play her top)
  • Quinn
  • Jayce (to a small extend)

In Lane I had 3 options playing him:

  • play passiv and try to scale with the risk of being outscaled by the enemy team and the need to get kills in team fights
  • try to freeze but if the opponent breaks the freeze you're screwed
  • play aggressive and be killed by the enemy jungler

Please let me know how you think about this :) I hope my grammar wasn't to bad ^^" Have a nice dayTeemo

Clankaempfer1 votes

I want to add that i know that this rework suggestion has problems but it was meant to start a discussion about Teemo so he maybe get some attention so Riot trys to think about a small rework or changes again.

Zankov1 votes

Hey, my account got banned on the forums for saying "tencent's dick is choking the life out of Riot", so I'm just going to reply once and then not hop on again because you were really nice and wanted an actual discussion.

Been playing league for a very long time and he is my top 3 for top lane (maybe top 5 now idk).

On the topic of him being tanky, I don't really want to put in the effort of looking through them all, but I wouldn't compare him to a marksman, he is more of a mage top laner like Heimerdinger and Cassiopeia.

Teemo's ult is quite hard to "dodge" because it's not really a skill shot, you either walk around it or get hit. It's an amazing disengage ability because they are either forced to walk the entire way around (which is much slower) or walk into and take the damage + slow. If you place it in a direct route or in certain positions on the map, it's pretty much walk into it or just leave the chase.

Later on I agree he isn't very tanky, even with the blind stopping an enemy from attacking, the items he builds are just not as strong as a bruiser and he will most often lose in a 1v1. Bruiser items compared to mage items are MUCH better if they build properly (which in most cases is hard unless there are multiple AP to allow for a spirit visage or maw, then it's very hard for a Teemo to do well).

To be completely honest, I played him for like 10ish games recently because it's been a little while since I played Teemo, and it was pretty horrible. Even the champions he counters early can just 1v1 him later with little the Teemo can do against it. Most champions are 50/50 if the Teemo is playing very well while the enemy is just playing average, mid to late game.

Only certain champions like Tryndamere who heavily rely on autos can get fucked by a Teemo, and even some like a Yi or Irelia can just build wits end and nullify it.

In my opinion, Teemo is still the cancer shit I described, but the power creep of all the other champions makes him slightly on the weaker side and there is a reason you don't see many people playing him. Too many champions are extremely unfun and overpowered to the point where a champion like Teemo just doesn't compare.

I don't know what a good solution would be and Riot isn't going to listen anyways so I'm not even going to try. Sorry if you expected much from a response, I just don't like League anymore and don't want to waste my time giving suggestions or trying to help anymore.

HideSide1 votes

What about to make him jungler like twitch? O_o? Old Reksai's ultimate on his W to get into bushes he marked or make special spots across whole rift, so he can travel from one spot to another like reksai on her W but long distances and to set spots by dev team in advance like skarner has set his crystals across whole jungle. I would also give condition that teemo has to activate it and enemy can undo given activation but can see whether it is activated only when being really close to it or under different condition. Actually, if he could use his shrooms at lvl 1 then he would be good jungler instead of some ZED or Darius...

Clankaempfer1 votes

I agree that our rework idea has problems but it appears to be a missleading thought of his W, we considered it more like a Corki W, Kai'sa E or Rek'sai W not as a global dash, only for a few hundred units. You could remove the attack speed bonus completely so he would only have the bonus damage on shrooms in this area and the camouflage (which will be interrupted like every other camouflage if he attacks, recalls or uses abilities) and you could extend the channeling time or extend the range of his camouflage detection radius.

This all depends on how good it would be if you really would use this kit and you would need to test how good Teemo would be.

I hope my answer satisfied you Have a nice dayTeemo

HideSide1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that our rework idea has problems but it appears to be a missleading thought of his W, we considered it more like a Corki W, Kai'sa E or Rek'sai W not as a global dash, only for a few hundred units. You could remove the attack speed bonus completely so he would only have the bonus damage on shrooms in this area and the camouflage (which will be interrupted like every other camouflage if he attacks, recalls or uses abilities) and you could extend the channeling time or extend the range of his camouflage detection radius.

This all depends on how good it would be if you really would use this kit and you would need to test how good Teemo would be.

I hope my answer satisfied you Have a nice dayTeemo

Thanks for reply, but to be honest, the process of my thought was: "He is problematic pick who is problematic on the lane because he easily becomes too oppressive when viable" -> "lets move him to jg" -> "As a jungler, what would give him unique advantage in comparison to similar junglers like twitch, kept his character as "swift scount" and made him useful and efficient jungler?" -> "unique scount-like mobility in term of sneaking to desired places via path holes, just like hamsters do underground." It might be as well just a passive with W free to have something differen. It was just my own suggestion without response to your design. But still thanks for reading. What do you think about it?

Clankaempfer1 votes

I think it could be an interessting, fun and unique kit but there is one main issue i see if you change his W to a spell like old rek'sai ultimate he would be abused by high elo players you could see him as tf with his ult on a W, this would be very strong. But the rest sounds quite funny Teemo

HideSide1 votes

I am glad that you like it :P. I dont know that thing with pro play but it wouldnt be as OP as TF's ult, since his pathholes can be set where they lead and from where. Like to some camps and some bushes. ( red buff, maybe raptors and tribushes )

Teemo Hee Hee1 votes

Btw it anyone knows is a teemo rework being thought about in riot RN?

JediGrandMast3r

This is interesting but I think Riot should do one of two things. Keep the current Teemo with some small changes or go back to the reworked Teemo that they did not release with some small changes. Currently, Riot has been expanding the Jungle pool, so why not Teemo. Teemo as a jungler at low levels has to farm until six where he uses shrooms to help stabilize his clearing. This is not health, so his poison damage against monsters should be increased. Teemo's Q against monsters could blind longer, blind the whole camp, or have no changes. Another suggestion is to add a stun, slow, and root removing effect on Teemo's (W) activation.

Clankaempfer1 votes

I agree and it could really help him but the lanes had to provid some sort of cc otherwise ganks wouldn't be that good. But your suggestions sound very logical and well balanced :)

Have a nice day Teemo

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